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Thread Number: 48365
Would you replace an eleven year old fridge?? |
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| Post# 700810 , Reply# 1 9/3/2013 at 10:10 (3,888 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York) | ||
Here...
Duke Energy keeps running ads, over & over, and over again, about these older models using so much more energy then newer ones..
"Refrigerators and freezers purchased before 1993 can consume two to three times more energy than newer models. Replacing your current unit with an ENERGY STARŪ qualified model could save you more than $100 a year on energy costs." Not exactly sure how true that statement, is, however, it's something to think about. I myself, honestly, would not replace something that still works. I'd hold onto it, until it finally dies. | ||
Post# 700821 , Reply# 2 9/3/2013 at 11:28 (3,888 days old) by sudsmaster  (SF Bay Area, California) |
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There is not a big difference in energy consumption between fridges labled "Energy Star" made 11 years ago and those made today. The real energy hogs were those made in the '70s and '80s. For example, around 2000 I replaced a GE SxS fridge that was rated by the mfg to use 1700 KWH/year. The replacement was a KA SxS that was rated to use 600 KWH/year. Did I see a big reduction in my electric bill? You betcha!
But a similarly sized and featured fridge today might be rated at 500 KWH. Yes, an improvment, but probably not enough (certainly not 300% more efficient) worth replacing a perfectly working fridge over. The only thing I miss about the old GE was that the ice maker made actual cubes (well, short cylinders). Instead of the funky crescents that most modern ice makers seem to do. But that was a minor annoyance when compared to the $$$ saved on each month's electric bill. | ||
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Post# 700824 , Reply# 3 9/3/2013 at 12:03 (3,888 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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Post# 700829 , Reply# 4 9/3/2013 at 12:36 (3,888 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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 1. Energy savings figures are based on best-base scenarios, which aren't always the case in practice. 2. If one spent $2,000 for a new SxS, even if $100/year power cost is saved it'd take 20 years to recoup the investment. 3. People nowadays complain that appliances don't as long as they did in the past. That's true, if they're not given the chance to do so. :-) | ||
| Post# 700830 , Reply# 5 9/3/2013 at 12:37 (3,888 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
I would consider a replacement...
if you only have one refrigerator ( no backup )
and you have a reason to believe it is on its way out. I personally would rather replace it when I can shop around and chose a good fit. Otherwise, you may be shopping under a crisis and not be able to make the best decision. But that is just me... Malcolm | ||
| Post# 700831 , Reply# 6 9/3/2013 at 12:38 (3,888 days old) by mtn1584 (USA) | ||
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I am just worried about the compressor crapping out and being caught by surprise. | ||
| Post# 700834 , Reply# 7 9/3/2013 at 12:48 (3,888 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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I would replace it With a 1950s model if it were me..LOL! | ||
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Post# 700846 , Reply# 9 9/3/2013 at 13:25 (3,888 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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compressor crapping out
Yes a sealed system failure can happen, but unless you have some odd indication like a strange noise or something, its just not too likely.
You are far more likely to get bit by a fan or defrost system failure. Both of which are easily repairable. I wouldn't replace a serviceable unit on the hunch it may fail. Although I may put a can on top the unit I toss random twenty dollar bills into for when it does eventually die ;) | ||
| Post# 700849 , Reply# 10 9/3/2013 at 13:51 (3,888 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs) | ||
"protection" was a whole different thing back then
You can help the compressor live a longer life by keeping the condenser clean. I suppose it depends on what's stored in the fridge as to how tramatic a refrigeration failure would actually be. Years ago when I worked at Western Appliance in San Jose manufacturers like Frigidaire offered spolied food protection with new products. The customer had to fill out a claim form and most of them were pretty hysterical to read...50 lbs of lobster tails, 75 lbs of filet minion, 5 lbs of ground beef was very common.
"where's the beef?" 
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| Post# 700850 , Reply# 11 9/3/2013 at 13:56 (3,888 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E) | ||
I Would:
Put together the resources (cash or room on a credit card) to purchase another unit, and then I would do - nothing.
I would wait until the present box goes wonky, and then I would replace it with the resources I'd put together. Until that time, having cash on hand generates interest, and not using available credit saves interest. You should definitely be prepared, but there's no reason I can see to run right out and buy a new unit on the off chance the present one is going to take a dumparooney. P.S.: If you buy a new $2000 fridge that saves $100 a year in energy costs, that sounds attractive, right? Except that if you only get ten years out of it, only half of what you spent is paid back. Also, one thing the Energy Star program seriously fails to take into account is the energy needed to produce a new appliance, and of course, there's also shipping - these days, that's often halfway around the globe from China, Inc. The Energy Star program never says anything about products that use little energy now, but clap out far sooner than consumer durables used to, requiring a lot of - you guessed it - energy to replace. You would probably be doing the planet a favor overall to nurse your old unit along a while longer. | ||
| Post# 700919 , Reply# 14 9/3/2013 at 16:56 (3,888 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia) | ||
Wait until she curls up her coils
Currently, you've a fridge that has given you virtually no problems. Historically, appliances do one of three things:
- have issues during warranty - have issues during and after warranty - have minimal issues Falling into the 3rd category, I wouldn't replace it. In fact, given it has been so reliable, I'd be tempted to have it fixed even if it did break. Fridges are not complex things. Its usually the thermostat, compressor or refrigerant that goes on them - all of which can be replaced for relatively little money. | ||
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Post# 700927 , Reply# 16 9/3/2013 at 17:50 (3,888 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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It also would depend on your electricity rates.
For example, at my current level of usage, due to tiered rates that increase as consumption goes up, any additional electrical load would cost $.35/KWH. So a fridge that uses 1,000 more KWH than an energy star would cost me an extra $29/month in electrical costs, or $350/yr. A few years of that and the more efficient fridge has paid for itself. | ||
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Post# 700929 , Reply# 17 9/3/2013 at 18:01 (3,888 days old) by goatfarmer (South Bend, home of Champions) |
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Post# 700933 , Reply# 19 9/3/2013 at 18:17 (3,888 days old) by RevvinKevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land) |
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I had a 22 cu ft Amana side by side, stainless panels, ice & water in the door, etc. At the 11 or 12 year (or so) mark it I noticed the freezer wasn't as cold as it should be. A friend came by to check it, determined it was a little low on freon and recharged it.
This lasted 4 - 5 months and it wasn't staying as cold again. It had a leak and the 2nd time he added a die to help find the leak. Long story short, the evaporator core inside the fridge was the source of the leak and due to time (had to remove the all of the panels inside of the fridge to get to it) and cost (it was well over $1000 just for parts) I decided to "throw it away" and get a new fridge, as much as I hated to do so.
The new one is a Samsung (ugh) french-door with ice & water, bottom freezer model. Honestly I could care less about the "french door" thing and only see problems with the seals down the road. But Samsung had been making the bottom freezer models for GE for 2 1/2 years before I bought this one and so far I've been very happy with it the last 2+ (3?) years I've had it.
Kevin | ||
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Post# 700937 , Reply# 20 9/3/2013 at 18:36 (3,888 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Post# 700939 , Reply# 21 9/3/2013 at 19:07 (3,887 days old) by goatfarmer (South Bend, home of Champions) |
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Post# 700954 , Reply# 22 9/3/2013 at 20:10 (3,887 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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1999 GE top mount here | ||
| Post# 700958 , Reply# 23 9/3/2013 at 20:26 (3,887 days old) by xraytech (Rural southwest Pennsylvania ) | ||
we have a 1993 Kenmore 18 top freezer model that's chugging along just fine, have an Amana bottom freezer of same time period in the garage that clunks and is very loud but performs great.
Now our freezer is a mid-late 1970s 22 cu ft coldspot that runs quietly. I personally wouldn't worry about the age as a new one may end up more trouble | ||
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Post# 700979 , Reply# 25 9/3/2013 at 21:49 (3,887 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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My 18 year old Whirlpool
Built by Frigidare clunks and bangs but still works perfect. Except it is the worst designed fridge in the world to fit things in. Did the energy calculation and it would be about 30 years to save enough money replacing it with a comparable 18 cu. ft. But you can put something in the freezer and its solid in no time.
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| Post# 700985 , Reply# 26 9/3/2013 at 22:27 (3,887 days old) by dustin92 (Jackson, MI) | ||
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We have never had any major problems with a refrigerator- 20 year old and 13 year old GE's at our old house, a 80's Gibson downstairs and a 1989 Whirlpool upstairs at this house. The Whirlpool has Clunked loudly when shutting off for at least 20 years, but keeps everything perfectly cold. | ||
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Post# 700986 , Reply# 27 9/3/2013 at 22:37 (3,887 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 701012 , Reply# 28 9/4/2013 at 01:20 (3,887 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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Electric rates
Fairly cheap by today's standards, at about 10 cents per kWh, when everything is included, and no pricing tiers or time-of-day differentials (yet), so using more doesn't raise the rate. Gas seems to be higher in the Southeast than in the West, however -- not too many people around here have a gas dryer.
According to a book I have, the TVA electric rate in 1970 was 1 1/4 cents per kWh. | ||
| Post# 701027 , Reply# 29 9/4/2013 at 02:58 (3,887 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
How much kWh do you have to save to replace an appliance every 6 years instead of every 25 years? That's roughly the difference between old "inefficient" refrigeration and what's sold today.
Using the example I'm most familiar with, the condenser (outside) unit of a central air made in 1980 could be expected to last 20-30yrs. The same appliance made in 2005 is designed to fail in 5-7 yrs. Yes a rotary is "more efficient" than a swash when evaluated only in terms of operating kWh. But how many kWh does it take to landfill and remanufacture it 4 times as often? Not counting retail markup and installation labor which is what YOU pay. Surely nobody here thinks government-mandated "efficiency" favors the person who actually PAYS for things. Yeah right, save $1000 off your electric bill by trashing your $4000 system 4 times as often. You don't even have to DO the math to see the fallacy. | ||
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Post# 701113 , Reply# 30 9/4/2013 at 10:53 (3,887 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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"The same appliance made in 2005 is designed to fail in 5-7 yrs."
This is quite a statement. To say that something is actually engineered to fail in 5-7 years intentionally? You can back this up with proof right? Yes surely modern appliances are built lighter then vintage ones were and there is far more cost cutting done to keep consumer pricing low. I think its a bit paranoid to believe that the intention of the engineers was to have the design fail frequently though. Today's units _may_ have a reduced lifespan compared to vintage units but stating a 4 to 1 replacement is absurd. The frequent replacement is more likely more due to peoples decisions to fix/not fix and the state of modern service companies today. A 20+ year central AC is pretty rare no matter when it was made, most get replaced after 10 years, often for no reason. Twenty years from now there may well be just as many of today's units running as the the vintage ones are today, all depends on if people keep repairing them. For the record my AC is 22 years old at this point, I'm a "fixer". My girlfriends father just junked an 8 year old high end furnace because the draft inducer motor failed, he is not a fixer... Replacing a working unit to get increased energy efficiency is quite likely a loser in the cradle to grave analysis. Only if the device is really inefficient would it make sense (like incandescent lights with LED, a 10 to 1 saving). When replacement is needed though, in general it does pay to pick the most efficient thing one can buy though. | ||
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Post# 701118 , Reply# 31 9/4/2013 at 11:10 (3,887 days old) by DaveAmKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI) |
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The Frigidaire side x side fridge at dad's lasted 15-years and was really still working OK (a 1984 & the best appliance that WCI-owned Frigidaire ever made!) when it got replaced by the Whirlpool side x side w/ the ice & water in 1999, which is still in place & doing its job...
So, I agree, that Energy Star is still locked into more con-current standards, than conforming to whatever standards will be mandated in any future measures, as well as over-looking what constant replacement & obsolescence (which the industry is doing well at making "new stuff" having to be replaced that quickly) to make anything we have to strictly go by...! As for the fridge in my house, it's still too new, soon & working awesome to really tell what the future will bring (though I wish the condenser below it would be easier to make a little more dust-free, vs. the in-laws, which is the same make only newer and has a condenser that you really "don't" have to clean--that is the kick-plate is much smaller & giving me the impression that there is nothing underneath, but the means of making it 1-more-cu. ft. than ours is)... -- Dave | ||
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Post# 701124 , Reply# 32 9/4/2013 at 11:28 (3,887 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Well the KA sxs I got in 2000 is still running just fine. It shows no sign of deterioration.
The only problem I had with it was when I stacked things up high on the top shelf in the fresh food compartment and blocked the flow of cold air from the top of the freezer into the top of the fresh food compartment. This tends to ice up the water line leading to the ice maker, leading to an icemaker apparent failure. I had it serviced under warranty the first time this happened, and the repair procedure just happened to melt the ice block sufficiently that it worked until I unknowningly blocked the air vent again. After that I was able to thaw it out (hair dryer helped) and resolved never to block those vents again. So far, so good, problem has gone away. As for electric rates here in California... at the mercy of the state, there. If I were to get rid of the koi pond pump, the chest freezer, and the second fridge, probably could lower the monthly bill quite a bit. But I'm sort of attached to the fish and the chest freezer certainly does come in handy. The second fridge is not strictly needed but since it sits in a second kitchen in an enclosed patio it's kind of expected. Both fridges are energy star circa 2000 and it would not be very economic to replace them for maybe 100 kWH less total consumption per year. Parasitic losses are always an issue... esp with things like radios that lose their station settings when unplugged but consume five or more watts when plugged in. And of course a computer sucks it up too. | ||
| Post# 701128 , Reply# 33 9/4/2013 at 11:51 (3,887 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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Yes surely modern appliances are built lighter then vintage ones were and there is far more cost cutting done to keep consumer pricing low. No, they are built cheaper to increase the manufacturers profits is the first priority. If it lowers the cost to the final consumer, that's just a side benefit. | ||
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Post# 701131 , Reply# 34 9/4/2013 at 12:39 (3,887 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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I've noticed that, as with many other products, the latest and greatest fads in fridges tend to result in the highest prices. When bottom freezer french door fridges came out, they carried quite a price premium. Now that seems to have settled and I'm seeing ads for some down well under $2000. The latest fad seems to be 30 cu ft models, which carry the new price premium. Water/ice in door dispensers also cost more, but in my case that's a requirement.
As for Whirlpool.... they have their ups and downs. I think their mechanicals are probably the best out there, or at least above average. I feel a little burned about the second fridge from KA out on the patio. It's a curved door 25 cu ft top freezer in stainless. Apparently KA goofed on the insulation and it shrunk and caved in those nice curved doors as well as the top and sides of the unit, over time. I called KA when it was under warranty, send them photos, but they didn't seem to think it was a problem. I should have demanded a site visit but didn't... so now it looks like someone beat on the poor thing. The SXS in the main kitchen fortunately doesn't have the caved in door look, although I can see a little sucking in of the sides. But these are mostly not visible. I think the insulation issue was an isolated occurance that KA/Whirlpool later corrected, I just happened to be one of the unlucky first buyers who got a top freezer with the issue. If I could, I'd sell the thing for a big loss and replace it with a bottom freezer single door - preferably something with the ability to handle the low temps on the patio better than a top freezer unit. But given other expenses that's probably not going to happen for a while. Other than that, fairly happy with the things. I do have a late 40's GE single door in storage, that could be repainted and gasketed and would probably be just fine as a patio fridge. Minimal freezer space in it but then there's a chest freezer out there right next to it anyway. And as far as I can tell, the old GE uses less than 300 KWH/yr. | ||
| Post# 701132 , Reply# 35 9/4/2013 at 12:43 (3,887 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Designed to Fail?
Perhaps not. But most all are designed to not be worth repairing in the end.
1) Take a day off work. 2) Wait for tech to show up (good chance he wont) 3) Diagnose problem. 4) Order parts. 5) Wait for parts. 6) Wait for tech to arrive to replace parts. (another missed day of work) 7) Write a check for at least 50% of the value of the machine brand new. 8) Say an extra prayer at night that it runs another couple years. [ MOST CONSUMERS DON'T WANNA BE BOTHERED WITH ALL THIS ] Malcolm | ||
| Post# 701149 , Reply# 36 9/4/2013 at 13:36 (3,887 days old) by mtn1584 (USA) | ||
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You are right Malcom! So true, time missed from work....at least two days, and it is always a crap shoot when he gets there that he ordered the correct part!! Mike Too much stress getting an appliance repaired these days! | ||
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Post# 701151 , Reply# 37 9/4/2013 at 13:38 (3,887 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN) |
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@ Malcom All eight of your bullet points applies to any vintage of appliance, old or new. It appears that perhaps the longevity of modern machines is being driven by the consumers choices as much as the manufacturers (and to some degree the service companies). This was part of my point. @ Allen Of course cost cutting is done to maximize profits for the manufacturers too. But if price competitiveness to the consumer isn't maintained, sales and therefore profits fall FAST. This is especially true today in the global market place. Think Samsung and LG for instance and how they have altered the game. Many of the moves that the US makers had to do were done merely to stave off the competition of the far East manufacturers. | ||
| Post# 701215 , Reply# 39 9/4/2013 at 19:13 (3,886 days old) by danemodsandy (The Bramford, Apt. 7-E) | ||
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Two Cents More: | ||
| Post# 701244 , Reply# 41 9/4/2013 at 20:21 (3,886 days old) by Travis () | ||
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It really sounds like you just want a new refrigerator and are looking for validation. Go ahead and get one if it makes you happy. | ||
| Post# 701254 , Reply# 42 9/4/2013 at 21:15 (3,886 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
KNOCK ON WOOD!!
For myself, I would Keep it until it dies.
I've never lived anywhere where the fridge went out....Currently, my WP side by side is EXACTLY 9 years old the 15th of this Sept.... It had an ice maker replaced but that's it. I can say this........Definitely clean the coils.......Blow them with a blower, vacuum them, keep them clean.....This is something that most people don't and believe it or not, in my manual it says this isn't necessary.. How could that NOT be necessary????...As much as I clean I'm always amazed and how quickly there is a build up on the coils. I use my rainbow to blow them out. I think this helps with the life of the unit....at least some. | ||
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Post# 701256 , Reply# 43 9/4/2013 at 21:41 (3,886 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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The grandmother's Whirly refrigerator is on the cusp of 29 years. Had one repair (not counting the ice maker), I replaced the compressor start relay. I have a 16 years old KA top-freezer in my garage, no repairs thus far. My GE Arctica SxS (came with the house) is 9 years, the motherboard and freezer evaporator fan were replaced (by me), and the ice dispenser solenoid and water valve. | ||
| Post# 701257 , Reply# 44 9/4/2013 at 21:48 (3,886 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Left for Dead
In the past 20 years, I have had 5 major appliances flat out leave me for dead, requiring a service call or immediate replacement. It occurred to me earlier that 4 of them wore the Kenmore Elite badge. No wonder they are declining in quality. By the same token, none of them was a refrigerator.
Just an odd epiphany. Malcolm | ||
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Post# 701265 , Reply# 47 9/4/2013 at 23:33 (3,886 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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Matsushita compressors were made in Vonore, Tennessee from 1989 to 2002 -- then the factory closed and they started importing them.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO Supersuds's LINK | ||
| Post# 701295 , Reply# 48 9/5/2013 at 00:31 (3,886 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD) | ||
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compressor thanks for that link-back in the early 2000s I found several quite new,apparently replaced under warranty,fridges at the dump-all had embrace compressors...one of the fridges was a nice SXS SS maytag fridge-I salvaged the two electronic commutated fan motors from it-they were virtually brand new. | ||
| Post# 701302 , Reply# 49 9/5/2013 at 01:22 (3,886 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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One might be more cautious affixing the term "absurd" to observations posted here. Some are controversial, like say wash temp. One which is much less so is that manuf'd product longevity is substantially lower across the board than it was 30 years ago.
Do I have a spreadsheet that "proves" exactly how much? Do I really need one? These very pages are evidence enough. Contributors here don't make up stories about early failures. The number we don't have is how many of how many sold fail "absurdly" early. We do know that the reports come up "absurdly" often. Do you have a spreadsheet that "proves" they DON'T? Here's more: Starting with, my last real job was engineering integrity auditor/failure analysis engineer for Dell. We took integrity dead serious. That's why they laid off the lot of us in 2001 upon determination they were no longer in the integrity business. Recently worked and lived in buildings served by thru-wall airconditioners. This building is 15 years old and is on its fourth generation of replacements for units that failed beyond practical repair. What fails? The rotary compressor fails to start. There are working swash window units documented right here well over twice that age. Google 'rotary compressor' and I think you'll see where and why they are designed to fail. Hint, carbon vanes in friction contact with eccentric rotor. I had a long and confidential relationship with my HVAC guy at the last house I owned. He wasn't a bitter, disillusioned old fossil like I am, he was a second-generation HVAC family guy in his mid 30s. That Rheem was 30yo and he told me unequivocally that I'll never get that kind of service again. My neighbor two doors down upgraded to a HE Carrier which failed at the start of the second season. I took my voltmeter down to help him diagnose it. Dead compressor. I think/hope it was still in warranty. So I can't "prove" the numbers to everyone's satisfaction. They're only estimates, as reliability is never a fixed number but a bell curve. They're valid to my satisfaction, or I wouldn't have asserted them. | ||
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