"And another one bits the dust," is all I can think of here... 

We're still blessed with Phosphates here in Australia, but only in dishwashing detergents. Some "Eco-Nazi's" got it mandated out of laundry stuff (I think Radiant has basically discontinued its phosphate-line - although I couldn't tell any difference, TBH). 

Perhaps I ought to open a web-store and sell Australian Finish?

As for those claims about "Save the Environment," they are WAY out of line!!!

Did you know that domestic Phosphate output into the environment (from Laundering/Dishwashing) equates to a percentage value below 10?*

That is, the majority is out-put by CARELESS industry:

~ Farmers who think fertiliser is the Be-All and End-All, and haven't heard of properly calculating fertiliser quantities, or other means of improving the soil

Case in Point, this occurred at my family's farm - we managed to improve the soil far better with Lime and much less fertiliser, than with fertiliser alone. Less cost, less environmental impact and better yield from some pretty easy calculation. 

~ Mega-Corporations who don't give a damn about anyone or anything, only profits. 

The other issue is DOMESTIC fertiliser application where people live near major waterways, and again, over application of fast-releasing products, rather than slow-release products is the issue.

Ultimately, this problem stems from negligence (or carelessness, if you like). NOT laundering products. 

*AFAIK, when they banned Phosphates in detergent in Washington DC, apparently the rivers surrounding didn't clear up, as a result of industry (farms/factories) upstream continuing their output. Go figure, right? Industry = Problem, so Change for Average-Joe = Solution. 

Interesting point you make Rapunzel... Last I checked, the MSDS was updated late 2011, and still had Phosphates. I couldn't find that document tonight, but I checked my current 1KG bottle of Lemon 2X Concentrate. 

Under the small headline "Environmental Information," the sheet says "FINISH contains no Chlorine Bleach. FINISH surfactants are bio-degradable."

(It doesn't say that exactly - I've probably minced words. But thats the general "gist" of things). 

No "Phosphate-Free" labels either. 

You're completely right about that PassatDoc.

I always make it "my business" to prime the Dish-Drawer before starting, and anywhere between 16 and 42 minutes later (depending on cycle) for the rinses. Although, your incoming water temperature to the machine will be tempered (either Up or Down), depending on how hot the machine was to start with. 

I prefer to prime the lines, since it saves quite a lot of money with Aussie power rates. Maybe not so much elsewhere, but still good for the environment!

There is really no difference in cycle times on the shorter cycles with primed water lines... (At least on the drawers)

Rapunzel is right - we don't have softeners on most machines, since it really isn't necessary in most of the denser-populated areas of the country (excl. Parts of Perth and Adelaide. The former has "varying" hardness, depending on the source of the water. BUT its generally quite soft).

As the DishDrawer is of "European Descent" (in that Aussie/Kiwi {New-Zealand}) machines are capable of cold water intake), it doesn't require water-line priming or hot intake, as U.S. Member 'Dadoes' has pointed out previously. 

I prefer to that to save what amounts to about $20 in electricity yearly (Daily use on Delicates cycle {50°C Wash, 60° Rinse). The savings increase either as the machine is used more or when hotter cycles are used. With power rates going up, I presume that will now be a higher value, since I calculated that figure back in 2012, before the world ended.

This new-beginning must be the removal of those Phosphor-Laden detergents from "The Old World..."

That can wait until I exhaust the current "stash" of detergent 

I have used phosphate-free dishwasher detergents, and have to say I have not noticed a detriment in performance.  Our washing detergents haven't had phosphates for years and results are still excellent.

Jon

"If you have the DW connected to hot water and are purging it to get hot water you are totally negating the use of Enzymatic detergents which need to start in cold water and work up to hot."

This is actually false. At least in my house, the water is tempered to 50°C per government regulations - whilst this only applies to bathrooms, it isn't feasible in our house to alter the setup without significant inconvenience and stuffing around.

Therefore, the dishwasher gets that temperature intake. Since there is about a 30cm run of pipe from the main line (kitchen tap) to dishwasher tap, the detergent gets an initial flush with cold water, before it heats up to the hotter temperature.

If I enable the diagnostic temperature-sensing display, it actually only gives me about 5-10° on the original tub-temperature, depending on conditions, due to the thermal mass of the machine + dishes. So, if the machine is at 24° when starting, I typically only see about 30° by the end of the fill - giving about a 10-15 minute heating period on the machine. 

Many machines, including the Dishlex from our old home (2007 model) and the Bosch machine (1980's) I used in Norway heat the water to the desired temperature BEFORE releasing the detergent - so on those machines, purging the tap only saves time, energy and makes little difference to washing performance (if/when they are connected to hot). 

The DishDrawer has a flow-thru detergent dispenser, so "hitting" the detergent with really hot water (probably more than 60°) would hurt the enzymes - then again, modern enzymes are designed for higher temperature washing anyway, so it doesn't matter all that much. 

The other "issue" you could describe is enzyme activity at colder temperatures. We all know that fat doesn't dissolve into the water readily at lower temperatures, and the activity of enzymes does tend to decrease at cold temperatures. So starting at cold inlet and heating into their most active zone (Around body temperature, to somewhere around 55-60°) isn't going to yield better results, except for soaking heavier soils. 

FYI, I never have trouble with cleaning, even when purging the taps. I'd rather save my $20 or so per-annum than use it heating water and potentially not even reaching the target temperatures (I've "caught" the machine doing this on heavy - where it has to heat from cold - 65° in short time, always in the final rinse. It will "cut" the heating at about 55° on cold inlet, but will always reach the temperature on Hot inlet). 

Just so everyone knows I'm not bluffing :)

Finish Quantum Lemon 20+10 bought about 2 weeks ago to replace Fairy Platinum (like Cascade Complete Pacs) with equal amounts of Phosphate. At least these don't have gel that will dissolve and wreck the other pacs!

No, the government doesn't determine the temperature of our water - only how hot it comes out at Bathroom taps (Not laundry/kitchen ones). Although in MY experience, you can still be scalded at 50° - maybe just my "delicate" hands :P

What I scoff at is how our water heaters cannot be set below 60° due to "Legionella risk," if that was so, why do people in the U.S. get to turn theirs down to 48°? 

The bug is only a risk at temperatures below about 45°!

And of course, to top it off, the manufacturer of our Solar-Water Heater "recommend" people leave the electric booster ON (wasting power) to ensure the Government Mandate is met, and the water doesn't get "too cold."

(I'll scan that too, if ANYONE is wondering). 

I was surprised too...

I found it out researching Electric vs. Heat-Pump. Vs. Solar... Seems Electric doesn't go colder than 60°, Heat-Pump not warmer than 55°, generally and Solar, well, that depends on the Sun and whether you leave the booster on or not. Since I've got some time, I'll fish that manual out tomorrow and see what AU/NZ Standard that is meant to be. I did post a *rant mode* thread last year when the system was installed... So you could search that too!

Of course, I guess the "official" settings on a heater might be counted, not "Holiday" modes that save energy. Who knows?

Yes Freddie, BUT, I mentioned further in that sentence it only applies to the Bathroom areas (Ensuites, Bathrooms, Half-Bathrooms, WHATEVER you wish to call it)...

PERHAPS further when children are involved. 

I'll not mince words here, if it were AT ALL feasible to temper only the supply to the bathroom, we probably would've. But the tight space where the plumbing splits between the Kitchen/Laundry and Bathrooms is too tight, and the risk of flooding, damage if something bad happens too great. 

Keep it on the roof, temper the whole house. Yes, I object, but I live with it quite happily. We don't have any TL or FL machines that require very hot inlet anyhow, so no harm hey? 

BESIDES - Modern machines throw error codes if you give them water thats too hot for their liking... 

As for Kids or the Elderly, lapses in attention happen. Those who might not be in full possession of their faculties might not react the way other people might when presented with this situation, and instead choose to freeze or do something else out of the ordinary, hurting themselves even more. 

Parents/Carers might loose concentration for that moment, and the damage is done. No, you can't fix stupid, but even good parents will slip up on occasion.

In most instances, better to be safe than sorry.  

Here's my "rant" from last year too - Note for member Rapunzel, you can see the Government literature attached by Ronhic at the end of the thread. www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T...

That post should give you all the background on my "opinions" on this... Lest I post it again!

I too will bow down now - I think this might be getting towards a personal level, and I'd hate to see that happen. 

Thanks for 'waking me up' to the music, Louis. I was wrong about the Bosch - it spat out the detergent, started the heated and screeched to life each cycle :)

It was only our Dishlex that would heat, then you'd hear "CLUNK!" and the water start to circulate. One the very hot cycles, I wonder if this explains the poor cleaning some people experienced. 

For the record of everyone else on the board, it seems the old RB/MSDS page was taken down. So I had to do some research and dig up the MSDS for Finish detergent again. It seems that Australian Finish Powder (Made in Korea) contains Pentasodium Triphosphate, which, at least according to Wikipedia is that STPP ingredient we all know and love: http://www.rbanzinfo.com.au/dyn/IngredientsList?productID=1057 

In regards to that Enzyme "stuff," I can see why 50º is such a good temperature to wash at, since it has much better ability to bleach items, and suspend grease, but almost equivalent enzymatic rates. 

I guess a lot of the cleaning power in the heavy cycle comes from the 20minute (approx.) heating period, where the water is heated to 70º - and after that 60º point, we're onto Steaming/Bleaching action... Interesting stuff!

From what I understood, Enzymes are not living organisms, as they break down proteins. 

Instead, they are more like a chemical. They have an active site that only particular proteins will fit into (Lock/Key model). The enzyme can break down enzymes basically forever, provided the conditions are right (temperature, acidity etc). 

Some interesting points their Logixx. 

Generally, I combine purging the line with washing hands, washing up some items too bulky for the dishwasher, or fill into a tub to place onto the garden, and all in all, maybe about 5-6L of water (seeing as the DD can do it in one fill with about 2.5L of water) is used. Being purposeful with it helps "save" water in reality too. 

I factored in the cost of water into my savings calculation, and it comes to about $4 of water yearly - though I save water elsewhere whenever permissible, which makes up for it

I too don't notice any reduction in cycle times on Delicates, but I on the rare occasions I run the Fast cycles. 

As I said before, it does "guarantee" the target temperature on the very hot Heavy and Heavy-Eco cycles, and of course saves some wear and tear on the machine. 

Given that your machine makes use of cold water to assist the drying process, and because EU machines often have the softeners onboard, they cannot make effective use of hot connections without compromising other functions, it seems (and long cycles mean you have to be standing by to purge again for the rinses). 

If one purges the hot tap, and runs a cycle with a short pre-rinse, that would probably do better for energy saving, though not for water :/ 

For the record, our machine has vented drying.

Not that I let it run when I'm around. I cancel and open the drawer to flash dry, save some time and energy. 

For me, it seems to save time and deliver better results - especially on the very hot cycles. In more humid weather, it just doesn't seem as if an environment at high humidity will be conducive to drying. 

I also haven't been using rinse-aid very much lately either, just on the minimum setting, and that stops all the spotting. The small addition makes flash-drying much easier.

Whilst it does work by letting the fan work, shutting the machine off saves whatever minuscule amount of power and drys everything in about 5 minutes - compare that to a 30 minute wait :)