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Thread Number: 53780
Do you use a Rinse Aid? |
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| Post# 760889 6/2/2014 at 09:59 (3,616 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York) | ||
 This is a question, I've been meaning to ask, and I feel like should be brought up. And, I ask this because, as I venture through supermarket aisles, and read detergent boxes and ingredient listings, I'm noticing more & more detergents now are "all in one" or "contain shine boosters" or rinse aid built in.
Personally, I believe the original purpose of rinse aid, was to prevent water spotting in rinse cycles, however, with newer dishwashers the purpose is to help assist with sheeting water of plates (so they dry faster, and don't use as much energy). But, more & more detergents, are now better formulated to give spotless dishes, so the original purpose, really isn't needed.
Out of just pure curiosity, I went into the settings of my Bosch DW, and turned of the rinse aid, and ran it with a Finish Power-Ball Tablet. When I opened the machine this morning, everything was just as dry, and sparkling as if the rinse aid was in there.
I couldn't believe it. Mostly because, the dishes actually seemed just as dry, even the plastics. I honestly, would have expected these good results with the Finish Quantum, but definitely not with the Bargain Priced Powerball Tabs, I'm just amazed.
So.. Fellow Members? Do you use a rinse aid, or do you do without? Can you tell the difference? I just wanna hear what everyones experiences are :) | ||
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| Post# 760890 , Reply# 1 6/2/2014 at 10:02 (3,616 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Post# 760893 , Reply# 2 6/2/2014 at 10:16 (3,616 days old) by DADoES  (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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 Rinse aid, yes. I think all-in-one detergents are a crock for rinse aid purposes, being that the detergent is down the drain two or three water changes past when the final rinse comes around, which is when rinse aid is dispensed. Water sheeting for drying purposes is the same function as warding off water spots. Yes, I can tell the difference in drying performance if the dispenser runs empty. My well water is moderately hard (9-ish grains) and my dishwasher does not have a drying heater. | ||
| Post# 760894 , Reply# 3 6/2/2014 at 10:17 (3,616 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York) | ||
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Freddy.. The only thing I noticed differently, was the (manual) filter itself, didn't seem as clean. And there were a few random spots throughout the tub. The dishes didn't look any cleaner or dirtier than without the rinse aid.
I was quite impressed. Although, my water may be a little too soft, to give a good enough test. | ||
| Post# 760897 , Reply# 4 6/2/2014 at 10:22 (3,616 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Post# 760910 , Reply# 5 6/2/2014 at 12:27 (3,616 days old) by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC ) |
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Rinse aid, yes. Helps dishes dry better, especially true when I had a Bosch dw.
Having moved from a hard water area to the mountains, where water is as soft as mechanically softened water. I would caution you against using tabs, it's just too much soap. I had suds issues with every tab I've used, especially the Quantums. I've had decent luck with OxiClean, cascade complete and Somat powders. Especially Somat, phosphates rock! I haven't had any problems with etching, I watch the dosage, I tbl max. I used the jet dry turbo in the Bosch, with good results. Miele is my favourite one though, everything dry and spot and residue free. I tend to like the clear ones, so haven't tried regular jet dry in awhile. | ||
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Post# 760933 , Reply# 7 6/2/2014 at 15:29 (3,616 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 760936 , Reply# 9 6/2/2014 at 15:51 (3,616 days old) by jakeseacrest (Massachusetts) |
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| Post# 760938 , Reply# 10 6/2/2014 at 16:03 (3,616 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
Miele | ||
| Post# 760969 , Reply# 12 6/2/2014 at 17:53 (3,616 days old) by gmmcnair (Portland, OR) | ||
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Post# 760980 , Reply# 13 6/2/2014 at 18:12 (3,616 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK) |
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I use both rinse aid and salt
the water here is so hard it comes out fighting and to prevent drying issues as the dishdrawer only dries with residual heat it needs help and I have noticed a difference when the rinse aid has run out things seem to be streaky and blotched.
As I tend to buy rinse aid and salt from Aldi or Lidl its about £1.99 for very large bottle that lasts so long I forget when I bought it. Austin | ||
| Post# 760989 , Reply# 14 6/2/2014 at 18:40 (3,616 days old) by omono () | ||
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yes and no I stopped using commercial rinse aid years ago , now I just fill the dispenser with white vinegar . It works just fine . | ||
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Post# 760998 , Reply# 15 6/2/2014 at 19:56 (3,615 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.)) |
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Finish/ Jet Dry user here | ||
| Post# 761013 , Reply# 16 6/2/2014 at 20:51 (3,615 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod) | ||
Wave Jet | ||
| Post# 761030 , Reply# 17 6/2/2014 at 22:29 (3,615 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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We haven't used a rinse aid in a few years. We are now using Aldi's Reeva (Cascade Complete equiv) and all things come out clean with no spotting at all. | ||
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Post# 761076 , Reply# 19 6/3/2014 at 04:52 (3,615 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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I use JetDry rinse aid in my GE dishwasher. I've left the dispenser empty several times and noticed more spotting on silverware; otherwise, not a huge difference. Let it be noted that I have a water softener, so the water is super-soft, and I use Cascade Platinum Pacs which claim built-in rinse-aid action.
I've always used a rinse aid and probably always will. Habit.
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Post# 761090 , Reply# 20 6/3/2014 at 07:05 (3,615 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Rinse Aid
No, I have used it when samples fall into my hands but it makes very little difference.
Every morning when I unload one of the WP DWs I am always impressed with how nice the glassware looks and how dry everything is, in spite of using no RA and also using air-dry and leaving the DW door closed all night. To me RA is just one more thing to buy, that and the associated waste of energy from packaging, shipping and water pollution from its use, it just seems unnecessary to me. I also dislike the idea of ingesting something that warns you on the bottle not to ingest, by having a coating of it dried all over your dishes. | ||
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Post# 761093 , Reply# 21 6/3/2014 at 07:13 (3,615 days old) by tennblondie78 (Bowling Green, KY) |
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| Post# 761165 , Reply# 22 6/3/2014 at 13:36 (3,615 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania) | ||
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Probably results will vary based on water conditions. | ||
| Post# 761217 , Reply# 23 6/3/2014 at 16:39 (3,615 days old) by retromania (Anderson, South Carolina) | ||
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White vinegar! Oh really? I will have to try that. Thanks. | ||
| Post# 761223 , Reply# 24 6/3/2014 at 17:01 (3,615 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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I also dislike the idea of ingesting something that warns you on the bottle not to ingest, by having a coating of it dried all over your dishes. You got that right! I hate it when you put water in a glass and it foams up at the top. | ||
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Post# 761263 , Reply# 25 6/3/2014 at 18:39 (3,615 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Ever Since Cascade with "Sheeting Action"
Most if not all better automatic dishwashing detergents contain some sort of substance (usually surfactants) to cause water to fall as sheets onto dishes instead of droplets. This in theory lessens the chances of spots and so forth forming upon drying.
Rinse agents are mainly a mixture of surfactants and alcohols designed to not only prevent aforementioned spotting but assist with the process of drying, especially convection. The later became more important with the push to conserve energy began a trend in American manufacturers offing "energy saving" dry settings for dishwashers that turned off heating elements. Vinegar is a mild acid and as such will remove to an extent mineral deposits and so forth from dishes giving them a "gloss", but it does nothing in of itself to promote faster drying and or prevent spots. If you live in a soft water area and or aren't bothered by spots and or possibility of yibbles sticking onto dishes after the last rinse, suppose vinegar is "ok". You'll notice few if any "natural" rinse agents use the stuff on it's own. Ecover's "green" rinse agent is heavy on "naturally derived" alcohols but tried a bottle and wasn't impressed. Again no one needs rinse agents, they just give better performance in most dishwashers with results most households desire. Again if you aren't bothered by spots, yibbles, and or are the kind of girl or guy that likes polishing dishes (especially glassware) with a tea towel after unloading the dw, then by all means knock yourselves out. *LOL* | ||
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Post# 761266 , Reply# 26 6/3/2014 at 18:41 (3,615 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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1960's version of Cascade Spotlessness | ||
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Post# 761273 , Reply# 27 6/3/2014 at 18:59 (3,615 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Hot (very) Water, Chlorine, & Powerful Spray Arms | ||
| Post# 761285 , Reply# 28 6/3/2014 at 19:29 (3,614 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York) | ||
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Now that I think about it... I have noticed, that light suds, will sometimes come out of nowhere, when filling things with water. I've never been able to taste anything though, or notice any streaking.
I'm gonna go ahead and turn on the rinse aid dispenser back on, in the Bosch. Although, I'm gonna keep it at the minimum setting, which is probably about the right amount anyway, considering our water isn't hard.
It's quite intresting seeing all the responces. I'm sure we could all get away without it, but, I probably do need it since my machine works exclusivly of condensing drying. | ||
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Post# 761315 , Reply# 30 6/3/2014 at 20:50 (3,614 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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No Rinse Aid | ||
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Post# 761337 , Reply# 31 6/3/2014 at 22:45 (3,614 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.)) |
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We NEED Rinse Dry, | ||
| Post# 761342 , Reply# 32 6/3/2014 at 22:55 (3,614 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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Our Maytag DW manual states that a rinse aid should be used to ensure plastic items dry properly before the end of the cycle. For awhile there was that JetDry Turbo that indicated it helped plastics dry faster. I haven't seen it in awhile. But we don't worry as we have very few pieces of plastic ware anywhere in our kitchen. Everything is glass, stoneware or ceramic. | ||
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Post# 761374 , Reply# 33 6/4/2014 at 03:09 (3,614 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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I use rinse aid at the minimum setting along with All-in-one tabs.
Actually the tabs would work pretty well on their own as long as there are not too many water changings. Rinse aid generally being acidic in pH has the extra advantage of neutralizing detergent residue, at least pH wise. No All-in-one product is apt do that by itself. Would like to experiment with white vinegar, but AFAIR at least one DW manufacturer warned against its use in the past. I think possible damage to the the rinse aid dispenser`s gasket was mentioned. | ||
| Post# 761388 , Reply# 34 6/4/2014 at 06:13 (3,614 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA) | ||
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Fine Wine and Glassware | ||
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Post# 761464 , Reply# 35 6/4/2014 at 14:54 (3,614 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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I'll Say It Again...
Most better automatic dishwashing detergents contain some type of wetting agent. This sheeting action should in theory last over into the rinse (hopefully) and depending upon a few factors may be all one needs if preventing spots is the problem.
OTOH with modern American dishwashers often using lower temperatures and or convection drying things may not dry quickly nor as completely without some sort of "drying agent" in the final rinse. This is what the small amounts of alcohol do in rinse aids. I've never used heated drying (ok rarely if one is in a hurry) portion of a dishwasher in my life. But then again am pretty liberal with dosage of rinse agent and use Cascade "complete" which allegedly contains rinse agent. Was either that or a brief romance with Electrasol (later Finish) tablets with their "powerball" If we were back in the pre-1970's era when dishwashers used and or required water temps of >150F along with routine use of "Sani Rinse "cycles then drying agents probably wouldn't be required as after several cycles of that treatment dishes were so hot they flash dried. However you'll notice even back then dishwasher makers recommended a rinse agent (Rinse Glo or Jet Dry) to prevent spots. For those with front loading washing machines with glass portholes you know the drill. You can tell how effective rinsing is by how water beads up (or not) on the glass. If water is still sheeting that indicates presence of surfactants (detergent), or some sort of fat/oil. Fabric softeners are mainly emulsions of fats/oils/tallow and or surfactants (cationic), so there you are. | ||
| Post# 761470 , Reply# 36 6/4/2014 at 15:38 (3,614 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
 I do use "all in one" detergents in my dishwashers that don't have a rinse agent dispenser. And I do have very hard water where my 1962 Frigidaire Deluxe is installed and no deposits anywhere. If I try with regular detergents, I get water stains. Even with rinse agent and regular detergents, I get water stains with the '69 Frigidaire dishwasher next to it... BTW, the rinse agent dispenser in that dishwasher started to leak recently, I need to get another one! | ||
| Post# 761473 , Reply# 37 6/4/2014 at 15:56 (3,614 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Sorry, perhaps I got it in the wrong way, but, while using front loaders, I can share the thing about water being more prone to bead up on the glass window, and that is a sign of good rinsing... Very true!
But, I could also see that once softener has been added, actually, water beads up even more....but if softeners are emulsions of fats and you say that this will not happen in presence of fatty emulsions, , then that leaves me a little confused about why indeed to me it seems increased this thing... Also... You know, if you have ever used natural soaps in a front loader, you will have noticed that this thing of water happens with soaps very much, as soon as water is being rinsed and loose it's soapy tension thing( pardon, don't know how the heck call it, if there is a term, hope you get what I mean) to get into "scum" ( fatty origin compound ) patina greysh rinse water (substantially rinse water from soaps, I know you know what I mean) so then you'll see it will start creating these drops beadsvery much, like it does with softeners, and sure much more than how it may happen and does happen naturally by letting the machine run empty... Is it just me experiencing that? This post was last edited 06/04/2014 at 16:42 | ||
| Post# 761481 , Reply# 38 6/4/2014 at 16:19 (3,614 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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An example in a video... | ||
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Post# 761484 , Reply# 39 6/4/2014 at 16:40 (3,614 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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| Post# 761490 , Reply# 41 6/4/2014 at 16:49 (3,614 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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We are talking of how various chemicals works, in this case of how rinse aid works, if making examples taking in exam what happens in a washing machine by using various compounds and chemicals, helps myself or others to understand how stuff works and why, then I think there is nothing wrong with that, as we are still In the subject, if you have a problem with that, please see to resolve yourself...as this is what this website and forum is all about, learn and share.
Thanks for understanding, and, if you don't I am going to sleep well tonight anyway... | ||
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Post# 761562 , Reply# 42 6/4/2014 at 23:42 (3,613 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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| Post# 761583 , Reply# 43 6/5/2014 at 02:29 (3,613 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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OK......I am sorry, then...
Louis, I admit that it does happen that at times I tend to get off topic, and would be glad that when I am doing that someone would let ne know, but at this time didn't think it was the case... Thought that who was following would realize that, as for many discussions I see on here, they start from a thing, and as the discussion evolves they start speaking of stuff that are still pertinent with the starting subject, even if to someone just entering in the discussion many not seem so by looking at latest posts.... That happens all the times... And you know, At first glance, your question didn't seem just a simple question but rather a critic, and of an acid bitch kind, at least sounded so....not the first time it happens here...If it was not, I am sorry then and apologize. Also in general, as I have the occasion to: I would so like that this attitude from some people in crirticizing and the race of always finding or make appear something wrong in what I write and what I do in here, woulld be at least applied to everyone who's writing or doing just the same of what I do that instead isn't told anything.... But when it comes about me...oh well... I see the occasion to throw s**t is not missed... I usually take critics as an occasion to better myself, this is what life is about, learning from mistakes and trying being better, but I recognize when critics are done with a good purpose and when not, and when one do that with obvious bad intentions, well....I simply get mad. Anyway, if I didn't be criticized for going off topic, then now I surely will, after this post.....and that would be so right, and I apologize in advance. Would be anyway glad to continue via PM if you think there's still things to discuss about... | ||
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Post# 761585 , Reply# 44 6/5/2014 at 02:43 (3,613 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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| Post# 761588 , Reply# 45 6/5/2014 at 02:45 (3,613 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Post# 761809 , Reply# 46 6/5/2014 at 22:02 (3,612 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.)) |
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Forgot to add: | ||
| Post# 761874 , Reply# 48 6/6/2014 at 09:31 (3,612 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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I guess I could do less of rinse aid or anyway use less of it if I had an air vented dry machine. But not with the crappy Bosch I have or any dishwasher I had that used to do condensing drying, and in which even by using the most TOL of rinse aids or Jet dry etc...i get most of the stuff still very very wet and I have to dry stuff with the towel not to get marks, not to mention all in one that I find being just the same thing of regular ones, but for the double of price...
I have now a question driven by thoughts: I do wonder about the earlier rinse aids, and how they worked, were they different? .....you know, by the name they have in english rinse-aid they rather sound like something that would help the rinsing, just like sleep aid pills are called so as they helps you sleeping better... In italian or other languages, the compound is called, "brillantante" or anyway the same word composition translates in the same litterally meaning, in spanish for example is "abrillantandor", and in english they would be best litterally translated as "shine maker" and or even "shine enhancer"... Since I assume, rinse aids were not invented in here or in spain and or in countries where they call the compound that way, as I can tell you for certain here and or in these countries, dishwashers became more common well later than in other countries, that OTOH are the ones where it is called "rinse aid" , I so wonder if the compund has been known initially as a "rinse aid" and kept this name because earlier ones just limited to help the rinse, perhaps by being acid composition rather than having sheeting actions or silicons or whatever to avoid water to bead up on the stuff, dry faster, and or by making the thing shinier thanks to chemical enhancers meant for it. I do use somwtimes the word rinse aid to refer to something that helps rinsing as I think of the word composition, , not actually referring to the dishwasher product, I know it will sound kinda misleading and it is ...but they actually are rinse aids if you think of it...aren't they? This post was last edited 06/06/2014 at 10:23 | ||
| Post# 761894 , Reply# 49 6/6/2014 at 11:25 (3,612 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York) | ||
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Freddy | ||
| Post# 761896 , Reply# 50 6/6/2014 at 11:48 (3,612 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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I don't have a "sanitize" button,... guess sanitize is just an higher temp rinse, the one i have should do a rinse in 65 degrees celsius or more as it does reach in wash, this on the stronger cycle (for pots) I do 99,9% of the times for everything, it does not clean on the stronger cycle, let alone setting a lighter one, perhaps it reaches even more than 65 degrees clesius in the rinse, but for sure it reaches the 65 ..which should be the same or similar of a sanitize, I think.
Anyway I don't have this option and anyway I am of the opinion a good machine should do that on it's own, especially on cycles meant to for stuff that stand higher temps, not need you to press special features, it's her job to wash and dry them, basical job of a respectable dishwasher!...yet, the stuff gets decently dried only when as soon as I notice it drains last rinse water I stop and open it, if I wait more and wait the machine to finish until she actually says so with the end of cycle light coming on ( after the useless drying cycle) then they all still be very wet and just warm, not hot to dry themselves letting the door opened, and will have to pass them with the towel...but that is fine, as i would have to pass and check everything anyway because many stuff won't be clean, how I would like you could be here to see it with your eyes!!!!! This post was last edited 06/06/2014 at 13:05 | ||
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Post# 761935 , Reply# 51 6/6/2014 at 15:29 (3,612 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Sheeting ='s Better Rinsing
Hence "rinse aid".
As stated up thread Cascade long ago added "sheeting action" to it's dishwashing detergents to deal with spots. Depending upon several conditions that may be all a housewife or anyone else needed. That being said rinse agents have been around since the 1950's or so. They are mentioned in my Hotpoint service manuals just as you can find reference in such publications for other brands. At first rinse agents were solids like the Jet Dry basket you hung in the machine. Then came liquids which more or less began to dominate as manufacturers produced at first add on dispensers then made them standard equipment. Early dishwashers would have needed rinse agents more to prevent spotting and help with keeping yibbles down more than anything else. This is because most used some sort of drying system at the end of the cycle along with heated rinses. When you have hot water out of the taps running 140F to 180F, along with even a puny 700 watt heater, you are going to get rinses hot enough that dishes will either flash dry or do so quickly with some sort of heating element. However in this post Energy Crisis world where households often have water heaters set to 120F to 130F and dishwashers as a rule either do not heat rinses or allow the consumer to turn that feature off; yes, you probably are going to need something in the final rinse to speed convection drying. More so if you want dishes to dry without spots or streaks. Early on rinse aids were simply called "wetting agents" because that is what they did. Chemically they made water slippery by breaking down surface tension. In this manner water falls into sheets and not droplets, so no spotting. Many modern dishwashers no longer give two or three rinses by default, so whatever "rinse aid" in the detergent should in theory hang around for the following rinse. That is the theory behind the "powerball" used by Finish. Personally have always found those tablets too high in surfactants which cause excess foaming. Yes, dishware comes out gleaming but often at the price of my dishwasher being lumbered with forcing froth through the spray arms instead of water. | ||
| Post# 761955 , Reply# 52 6/6/2014 at 16:47 (3,612 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Thanks Launderess
I knew well about Cascade....as I also have some boxes of the stuff in my stash.
As I know enough about earlier dishwasher, the "historical" aspect....and the wetting action of rinse aids. And so the chemical aspect... That said, I just thought that whenever in a detergent and or in an actual " final rinse" rinse aid, the sheeting action they do, would have been something that do actually better and aid the shining, and the drying, rather than the rinsing itself meant as operation in which you have residues of wash solution or else removed by water... So I came to wonder about the name...rinse aid and it's origin...maybe it's because I am used to hear it called "shine maker" and think of it that way from a multilingual mindset, so, that thing that makes stuff shinier ..so I do keep thinking of it like something that just makes more about the shining by avoiding water sitting and make droplets, and so the drying, rather than for the rinse, meant as the process/operation of rinsing actually...it is and was used in rinsing for the most, yes....but the final use it does actually, so it's final goal, do better the drying and the formation of droplets (so make the rinse water fall down and do not make it sit, with the goal to make stuff more shining and brillant)...not an aid for the rinse itself..... But, it is an aid for water to fall down, so rinse aid, it be meant as " rinse water aid-----> to fall down /or not sit" shortened in just "rinse aid"... But I think you can come to realize it could seem meaning another thing from a "shine enhancer/ maker" term user's point of view...I do hope I am clear... Interesting is how in different languages certain concepts do changes, and how modern words and phrasing are just a matter of " how you see it".... that has little to do with language roots...as for taking as example german, which is in anglo- derived language with many similitudes in english, rinse aid it is called anyway klarspüler.... Klar: clear, transparent, shine, brillant spüler: cleaner, actually more rather like something act to clean, or belonging inncleaning or purifying....so also a compound or a machine, it also may mean dishwasher... This post was last edited 06/06/2014 at 17:26 | ||
| Post# 764431 , Reply# 53 6/18/2014 at 16:37 (3,600 days old) by retromania (Anderson, South Carolina) | ||
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Thank you! Thank you to the anonymous person(s) that left two boxes of finish dishwasher tabs for me at my place of employment. What a surprise! Thank you again! | ||
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Post# 779132 , Reply# 54 8/24/2014 at 17:51 (3,533 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Reopening The Debate
As one has now moved to using the vintage MM have found RA is essential. If not dishes simply will not dry properly unless the long (and energy intensive) heated dry cycle is used.
Do not like using heated dry cycles on dishwashers not only because of energy use but find racks (especially lower) have less damage (rust, degrading of coating, etc...) when not routinely exposed to the heat coming off those exposed elements. Sadly the MM does not allow one to adjust the amount of rinse aid so am not sure how much it sends into the final rinse. In our order Frigidaire one could tell when RA was dispensed because often the motor slowed down as a result of the froth created. One would hear the forceful spray of rinse water muffled upon injection of RA as foam built up. Not a bit of that with the MM, though often there is a layer of froth on the water remaining in the sump after the cycle is completed. Am going to look into finding commercial "low temp" RA such as those made by JohnsonDiversey. What one finds is that while things come out totally clean from the MM sometimes more water clings/remains than what one likes. This even hours after the machine has completed the cycle. Suppose one could simply lift the lid and allow things to "air dry", but there you are then. | ||
| Post# 779191 , Reply# 55 8/24/2014 at 21:44 (3,532 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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I worry about what chemicals rinse aids are depositing on my clean dishes. Is it harmful in any way? I don't like seeing my morning glass of water filled with foam on top of the water. | ||
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Post# 779193 , Reply# 56 8/24/2014 at 22:17 (3,532 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Rinse agents are mostly blends of surfactants
Such as ethoxylated alcohols along with urea, alcohol, fragrance, coloring, etc.. in small amounts dissolved in lots of water (for liquid types), thus with proper dilution do not pose a major health risk to humans. Every MSDS I've read (and have read a lot) for commercial and or domestic RAs state they are not hazardous to human health when used as directed. OTOH coming into contact with undiluted product is another matter. There by ingestion yes, the stuff *may* be pretty toxic.
It comes down to six of one and half a dozen of another. Many dishwashers both vintage and modern will not deliver good results without rinse/drying agents. More so the ones lacking internal heating elements or other methods for drying aside from convection. If you are fine with the potential for streaks, spots, and yibbles, and also do not mind less than stellar drying without using heat, then one assumes you can skip rinse aid. Tried going without RA once with the old Kenmore and it was a disaster. Without using the full heated drying cycle things were still wet the next morning when one went to empty the thing. Those "green" RAs such as the offering by Ecover was just as bad, as it did totally nothing. | ||
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Post# 779276 , Reply# 57 8/25/2014 at 09:27 (3,532 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Rinse Aid In DWs?
Only if absolutely necessary.
My late 80s WP Power=Clean DWs always produces spot-free DRY glasses, pots and pans dishes, silverware and dishes without any RA. I always use Hi-Temp Wash so the main wash and final rinse hit 150F, the door is left closed overnight and whenever I get around to unloading the dishes are dry. The only exception I ever have is a plastic container which may not be completely dry. | ||
| Post# 779336 , Reply# 58 8/25/2014 at 14:33 (3,532 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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Jet Dry had a product on the market called "Jet Dry Turbo" that was supposedly made to help plastics dry faster in the DW. Our Maytag manual states that even with heated dry, we may find some water on plastic items. This is normal. Just use a rinse aid to combat the problem. We get an occasional spot or two on a glass without using a rinse aid. But it's acceptable to us. | ||
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Post# 779347 , Reply# 59 8/25/2014 at 14:56 (3,532 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 779351 , Reply# 60 8/25/2014 at 15:11 (3,532 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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With my current crappy Bosch forget getting something dried as you open the DW, unless you leave it open and wait about 40 mins, let alone plastic.
With our old Rex/Zanussi, which IIRC had a vented heated drying, hard plastic would come out dry, though flixible stuff such as Tupperware would still have some light droplets, not too bad since they're opaque and that would not be that much of a problem. I do use the maximum setting of rinse aid possible in the Bosch and sometimes if I can "catch" the machine in time during the last rinse fill I add about 3/4 tablespoon rinse aid more, that way the drying as I open the door is faster and save me from passing with towel at least the pots and some dishes, water and marks on other items and glaases are reduced but still there though... I can't even imnagine if I would not use it. As for the chemical.....well, I do use the DW just in occasion of large meals or guests now.... but I am still "healty" and alive and could not really notice anything different in matter of taste or anything because of the increased amount of RA used and so meaningful-hazardous quantities of RA potentially left on pans and dishes...it would be insignificant anyway really IMO. In all honesty I'd be more concerned about the chemicals that are in the food and drinks we consume than of that little *nothing* that may be on our dishes because of RA.... | ||
| Post# 779352 , Reply# 61 8/25/2014 at 15:18 (3,532 days old) by kqkenmore (memphis tn) | ||
 Well I remember when we got our first DW mama paid 20.00 for a GE basic DW that a GE repairman got from a call because they said that they wanted another DW. when he put it in he told us to use either Cascade or Electra-Sol. We tried both I did not like the smell of Electra-Sol and it left spots so we used Cascade and never used rinse aid. Cascade always worked. Now in my horriable Kenmore I have to use rinse aid or I have food residue even with the best Cascade so I use it and I have tried everything I am on the last of Bubble Bandit and I am finding that it is no better than anything else the only ones that seem to work are Cascade and Finish that I mix with myown STPP which I have got to find a place here in Memphis that sells STPP. | ||
| Post# 779547 , Reply# 62 8/26/2014 at 15:40 (3,531 days old) by brib68 (Central Connecticut) | ||
Jet Dry
We have a 2009 KA near-TOL, with stainless tub. Always use a tab detergent (Finish Power Ball or Quantum, or sometimes Cascade) and Jet Dry. The Jet Dry Turbo does leave plastic items a bit drier. The one thing that I have found is that if I spill a bit of rinse agent when filling the dispenser (LOVE the level indicator window on this machine!) that if I don't wipe it up with a wet paper towel or sponge, the wash performance suffers!
Cascade used to make a product called Plastic Booster that would get stains out of plasticware. It was a miracle! I was so upset when it was discontinued. It did a great job getting the stains out of the Gladware that had leftover red sauce stored in it. It also would prevent the red sauce from dishes and pans from staining other plasticware during the cycle. | ||
| Post# 779566 , Reply# 64 8/26/2014 at 17:31 (3,531 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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This post has been removed by the member who posted it. | ||
| Post# 779572 , Reply# 65 8/26/2014 at 17:52 (3,531 days old) by kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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I don't think Launderess meant she has problems with foam creating from RA residues on glasses or mugs she uses, just some foam sitting in the bottom tub at the end of the cycle, which yes may even be likely due to a sightly higher concentration of today's RA's, and so a bit too much used. Or I misunderstood something?
I did notice some brands foams up more that others, have to say I never had such problems even when using the increased amount....maybe a very little bit/white ring around the filter that anyway dissipates quickly as it dries out leaving it open, that's it. MM are powerful machines "as they should be", so I think the froth is also the result of a powerful/fair action that in today's DW miss, hence the slow down of some modern units as RA is released, MM as Launderess says indeed keeps going as if nothing happened, and can't say I am surprised to hear this. It's easily understandable how she would prefer going with pro lower temp RA and skip heated drying though now as that would preserve the already lightly damaged- rust marked trays from the heat of drying cycle... Anyway I find the diluiting suggestion a very good one whenever you have a machine with no control on the quantity erogated, and you feel it uses too much, though I would go with distilled water in order to avoid mineral build up in the compartment during the time, even true NYC water is soft, so maybe that would not be that much of a problem as it would be for me with our hard water... If Mohammed will not go to the mountain, the mountain must come to Mohammed. There's always a way.... and IMO even more elegant/classy! ;) LOL Again, very clever.... This post was last edited 08/26/2014 at 18:32 | ||
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Post# 779597 , Reply# 66 8/26/2014 at 21:22 (3,530 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Leave us be clear...
Froth is in the sump of the tub after cycle is complete, not in our cups and or glasses. As always anything poured into such vessels remains untainted by froth or anything else that at least one can see.
In any event it seems this dishwasher is making up one's mind for oneself. Yet again there was a small pool of RA discovered on the floor when the MM was wheeled to the sink this evening. This has happened several times now and indeed cleaned up the last leak trail when the cover was off in search of the missing motor bolts (was peering through the access area). Cannot say if the leaking was aggravated from the turning upside down and so forth in search of missing motor bolts but it is getting on one's nerve. Think will just leave off using the dispenser and purchase one of those Jet Dry solid thingy. Can find solid commercial rinse agent that can be used as refill as opposed to the highway robbery prices Finish charges. One's only worry is that since Cascade in one's stash (Complete and Shine Protection, all loaded with phosphates), am worried about creating too much froth in wash cycles, but suppose will light that firecracker when we get to it. Just cannot have a leaky DW and am getting that tired of mopping up thick green "ooze" off my wood block floors. *LOL* | ||
| Post# 780627 , Reply# 70 9/1/2014 at 11:35 (3,525 days old) by Mich (Hells Kitchen - New York) | ||
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@Berry | ||
| Post# 780714 , Reply# 72 9/1/2014 at 16:50 (3,525 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA) | ||
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bwoods, thanks... we are using Cascade Complete. Our kitchen plumbing is routed to facilitate the addition of a water softener, and we're thinking about it. | ||
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