Dancing with Frigidaire - my first mcm FPI-16B-64

Phil,

The cold is made by the evaporator behind the freezer floor. Without the ducting, the fan wouldn't get it from there to make it flow in the freezer and even less in the refrigerator section.

Now, you want to see if evaporator itself gets cold while the compressor is working. I guess you already verified that too...

As for what caused the parts to melt, bad rewiring of the timer could have caused that but that seems unlikely since the green wire was not connected to the new timer. A defrost timer stuck in defrost mode would cause a lot of issues but that alone wouldn't cause the plastic parts to melt in the freezer as there's a "high limit thermostat" that stops the heat even before the timer ends the defrost period when the temperature near the evaporator reaches a certain point.

Now, the high limit thermostat can go bad too, either stay open (no defrost at all) or stay closed (won't shut off the heater at the temperature it should)

On a good working system, with the freezer at or below 0°F, the defrost heater shouldn't be on more than 20 minutes before the high limit thermostat opens and stops the heat as it stops the electricity to travel in the defrost heater.

On a freezer that hasn't reached a temperature below freezing (by refrigerating or by sitting outside at very cold temperatures!), the high limit thermostat shouldn't even reset to it's closed position so there shouldn't be any heat.

If it happens, the high limit thermostat could have failed or the defrost heater could have a circuit that's shorted.

Since these fridges don't have a grounded cord, what happens when the heater itself is shorted is usually is that the cabinet becomes "hot" (I mean electrified, like a "hot chassis" TV, not hot from a source of heat!) as soon as the refrigerator is connected if the plug is connected with the wire (which exits at 90° from the terminals to save space on the wall) going down and the outlet has it's "neutral" side on the left. Otherwise, the cabinet would be hot only during the defrost period if the plug is connected in the reverse way to the outlet (with the wire going up). That is of course if it still has it's original power cord and plug and no wires have ever been reversed while servicing the fridge!

But that condition where current leaks to the cabinet isn't enough to make the defrost heater hot. Unless someone replaced the original power cord with a grounded one (and connected the safety ground from the new cord to the cabinet) or if the refrigerator is touching something that's grounded.

I think I'm not very clear with my explanations. Just to clarify about the neutral and hot side of the house outlets. As you certainly know, regular 15 amps 115 volts outlets have 3 holes, the smaller vertical slot on the right is the "hot" side that carries the electricity, the taller one on the left, unless incorrectly wired is the neutral side. And the larger "D" shaped hole is for the safety ground. (both the neutral and the safety ground are grounds).

When the current goes from the hot side of the outlet to something that's incorrectly grounded (for example you, wearing shoes on a dry floor with dry hands) there won't be a lot of current carried through your body as it's resistive and not grounded and you might not even feel it, but try that while you're in your bath and you're in trouble! Now, if you touch the same hot wire while touching a metallic object that's grounded or the neutral or safety ground wires, you'll get a shock from the electricity traveling between the hot side and the neutral or the ground through your body!

The cabinet on these refrigerators aren't grounded from the factory, later in the 1960's they were but not in 1964! But if a wire is damaged or the heater is shorted, then it could become hot. If these had safety grounds, the hot cabinet would then either trip the circuit breaker from a short circuit to the ground or it could activate something that shouldn't be (like the defrost heater).


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Post# 844248 10/4/2015 at 11:45 (3,129 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )
Checkrate/Likes Sorry, I started that thread in the wrong area..so from Shoppers Square : From there ... www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T... ...to here. Cuffs054 - Thanks for asking - oil, no water. I haven't tried cleaning it to see where if any leaking is occuring. But no oil has leaked or accumulated. Update - I let it run for just 10-15 minutes last night. The tap-tap sound comes and goes but it's mostly there and seems to be only the compressor. The panel floor of the freezer isn't getting hot anymore, but the front narrow panel that is right in front of the two refrigerator trays did get very warm(not hot). I'm trying to determine what's behind that full-interior width panel front, just below/front of those two trays(meat tender, etc)

Post# 844254 , Reply# 1 10/4/2015 at 12:08 (3,129 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)
Checkrate/Likes Phil. I'm not sure of which part you're talking about but there are electrical mullion heaters (resistance wires) that heat some parts near the door openings to avoid water condensation. Under normal use, these wouldn't be warm but if it doesn't cool, they can get warm... The fan is working in the freezer (it should stop when the refrigerator door is open in this model but not when the freezer door is open). I'm wondering why there is oil on your superheat condenser. If it comes from something that fell on it, it's probably not a problem but if refrigerant (and oil) leaked from there, then you may have what's causing this condition...

Post# 844256 , Reply# 2 10/4/2015 at 12:33 (3,129 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )
Checkrate/Likes I have never heard a fan run, with doors closed. How quiet are these? Would any sound be audible. I only hear one thing - tap tap tap sound when I turn the freezer control temp wheel in the main fridge. Off works, it stops the compressor and tap-tap noise that's married to it. But otherwise, the entire fridge is quiet. I looked again - that doesn't seem to be oil, but more like water mixed with dirt and grime. When the drip pan is removed to empty water and tilted, it can drip water onto the coil. I think that's what happpened, but an expert will know if they test the entire system for leakage? Meanwhile.. PhilR - that yellow cap we talked about (FREEZER DRAIN CAP), above the drip pan, is removable and should be pulled off occasionally for removing sediment. I removed it the cap had a layer of rusted sediment. I cleaned it and photographed it afterwards. So, remove and clean yours, as well on your FPI-16B-64. See photo #2 Tech Talk HH101 - Photo #3 and #4 shows the panel that gets warm, whether or or not the fridge is turned on inside to initiate coolin or not, this panel 1.156 gets WARM. Not sure if that's normal, but there are other tests that will be more meningful in info. Thanks always. Photos... < > Photo 1 of 4 View Full Size This post was last edited 10/04/2015 at 18:25

Post# 844276 , Reply# 3 10/4/2015 at 15:23 (3,129 days old) by Travis ()
Checkrate/Likes It will not attempt to cool if the control is set to off.

Post# 844281 , Reply# 4 10/4/2015 at 15:36 (3,129 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )
Checkrate/Likes *Logical but had to ask anyways..* Travis - I thought so - I'm still reading pages of the manual. Thank you. View Full Size

Post# 844295 , Reply# 5 10/4/2015 at 16:48 (3,129 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)
Checkrate/Likes Phil, the fan motor should run anytime the compressor is working except when the refrigerator door is opened (it's wired to the refrigerator light switch, if the lights are on in the refrigerator section, the fan is off) and the light switch in the freezer has no control on the fan. When you have the compressor running with the refrigerator door open and you press on the light switch, the lights should go off in the fridge and the fan should come on. Having both doors open and pressing on the refrigerator door light switch will also make it start (as long as the compressor is running of course) If the freezer floor got very hot, it's possible that the fan housing (which is at the back of the freezer at the base of the pyramid-shaped duct) which is made of plastic could have distorted and is blocking the fan. At this step, you might want to remove the freezer baskets (pull on them and then lift the front part so the front rollers get out of the track, then do the same with the second set of rollers. Then, remove the long screws at the center of the freezer floor, and all the screws around. Also remove the white plastic duct at the back (there are 4 screws that can be removed with a short screwdriver, mine uses screws that can be removed with a Robertson #2 screwdriver but yours should be removed by a Phillips #2 screwdriver. Then, the plastic cover over the fan (I think it's held by 3 or 4 screws to the black duct). Then, at the left of the fan duct, you'll notice there's a almost hidden screw that holds the freezer floor to the back of the freezer. Once all the screws are removed and the white cover for the duct and the other colored one, you need to pull up on the back part of the freezer floor and lift it up to free it from where it's inserted in the plastic grille at the front and you'll see the evaporator core as well as the fan at the back. I took the two first pictures when I replaced the defrost heater in mine (old one shown removed in the first picture and new one shown installed around the evaporator in the second picture). Note that I also removed the front plastic part (the part that has "Frost-Proof" written on it) on mine but you don't need to do that just to remove the freezer floor. The other pictures show the same parts from my similar 1963 Frigidaire. Photos... < > Photo 1 of 5 View Full Size

Post# 844300 , Reply# 6 10/4/2015 at 17:30 (3,129 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )
Checkrate/Likes *Fan motor* I watched the video you made(embedded here for referencel in two places :-) ). There's absolutely no fan moving on mine and though the upper door light switch does make some hum sound in the area of the fan, I have no fan moving. I think it's fried or whatever. Also, my compressor will have a slight change in sound at the instant I press the light switch as current drawn from it is re-directed momentarily to the fan. But the fan is just a hum, only noticeable by pressing the light switch action. Excellent test, thanks PhilR. I need to remove the plate, then and see what's going on. This post was last edited 10/04/2015 at 18:09

Post# 844302 , Reply# 7 10/4/2015 at 17:48 (3,129 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)
Checkrate/Likes Here's a small video showing the noise you should hear from the fan motor.

Post# 844303 , Reply# 8 10/4/2015 at 17:51 (3,129 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)
Checkrate/Likes Oops, I didn't notice you already saw and posted the video! I guess the fan is blocked by some distorted / melted plastic in the freezer.

Post# 844305 , Reply# 9 10/4/2015 at 18:06 (3,129 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )
Checkrate/Likes *A HOT refrigerator* Here's the results and I stopped before plugging it again and seeing if the fan moves or try to look under that melted styrofoam/metal cover. ("Don't look Ethel, uh, too late, incensed") Note - I wasn't the first one to remove all those screws, some were not secured all the way, but it made for an easy removal. Melted air intake duct and blower housing, air baffle foam insulation melted, and foam insulation for evaporator cover nearly fried flat to nothing(I think these are right id's). What happened here? Photos... < > Photo 1 of 6 View Full Size This post was last edited 10/04/2015 at 20:53

Post# 844317 , Reply# 10 10/4/2015 at 19:13 (3,129 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )
Checkrate/Likes *As you suspected PhilR* Melted parts. Fan now runs. Letting it run to see if there's cool air coming into the freezer area. :-) We'll see. What caused these parts to melt? Defrost timer failed and caused defrost heater to stay on...?..or some other part failure? Update - I can't feel any cool/cold air flowing into the freezer area. 3D printing anyone? The ugly truth photos below. Photos... < > Photo 1 of 5 View Full Size This post was last edited 10/04/2015 at 20:09

Post# 844345 , Reply# 11 10/4/2015 at 22:41 (3,129 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)
Checkrate/Likes Phil, The cold is made by the evaporator behind the freezer floor. Without the ducting, the fan wouldn't get it from there to make it flow in the freezer and even less in the refrigerator section. Now, you want to see if evaporator itself gets cold while the compressor is working. I guess you already verified that too... As for what caused the parts to melt, bad rewiring of the timer could have caused that but that seems unlikely since the green wire was not connected to the new timer. A defrost timer stuck in defrost mode would cause a lot of issues but that alone wouldn't cause the plastic parts to melt in the freezer as there's a "high limit thermostat" that stops the heat even before the timer ends the defrost period when the temperature near the evaporator reaches a certain point. Now, the high limit thermostat can go bad too, either stay open (no defrost at all) or stay closed (won't shut off the heater at the temperature it should) On a good working system, with the freezer at or below 0°F, the defrost heater shouldn't be on more than 20 minutes before the high limit thermostat opens and stops the heat as it stops the electricity to travel in the defrost heater. On a freezer that hasn't reached a temperature below freezing (by refrigerating or by sitting outside at very cold temperatures!), the high limit thermostat shouldn't even reset to it's closed position so there shouldn't be any heat. If it happens, the high limit thermostat could have failed or the defrost heater could have a circuit that's shorted. Since these fridges don't have a grounded cord, what happens when the heater itself is shorted is usually is that the cabinet becomes "hot" (I mean electrified, like a "hot chassis" TV, not hot from a source of heat!) as soon as the refrigerator is connected if the plug is connected with the wire (which exits at 90° from the terminals to save space on the wall) going down and the outlet has it's "neutral" side on the left. Otherwise, the cabinet would be hot only during the defrost period if the plug is connected in the reverse way to the outlet (with the wire going up). That is of course if it still has it's original power cord and plug and no wires have ever been reversed while servicing the fridge! But that condition where current leaks to the cabinet isn't enough to make the defrost heater hot. Unless someone replaced the original power cord with a grounded one (and connected the safety ground from the new cord to the cabinet) or if the refrigerator is touching something that's grounded. I think I'm not very clear with my explanations. Just to clarify about the neutral and hot side of the house outlets. As you certainly know, regular 15 amps 115 volts outlets have 3 holes, the smaller vertical slot on the right is the "hot" side that carries the electricity, the taller one on the left, unless incorrectly wired is the neutral side. And the larger "D" shaped hole is for the safety ground. (both the neutral and the safety ground are grounds). When the current goes from the hot side of the outlet to something that's incorrectly grounded (for example you, wearing shoes on a dry floor with dry hands) there won't be a lot of current carried through your body as it's resistive and not grounded and you might not even feel it, but try that while you're in your bath and you're in trouble! Now, if you touch the same hot wire while touching a metallic object that's grounded or the neutral or safety ground wires, you'll get a shock from the electricity traveling between the hot side and the neutral or the ground through your body! The cabinet on these refrigerators aren't grounded from the factory, later in the 1960's they were but not in 1964! But if a wire is damaged or the heater is shorted, then it could become hot. If these had safety grounds, the hot cabinet would then either trip the circuit breaker from a short circuit to the ground or it could activate something that shouldn't be (like the defrost heater).

Post# 844386 , Reply# 12 10/5/2015 at 10:08 (3,128 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia )
Checkrate/Likes 1 *Summary* Phil - wow. Ok, my take from what you said: SUMMARY: There was or could be a possible short in the circuit that shorted some parts. The short originated from the Defrost Timer wired incorrectly(doesn't appear to be the case), the High Limit Thermostat could have failed with shorted circuit conditions, allowing the heater to stay on. Or, someone changed the factory installed plug/cord with a three prong assembly and /or it was plugged into an outlet with reversed neutral to hot. The shorted condition could occur if the refrigerator was grounded somehow. These refrigerators were not built with the grounded feature or backups to prevent damage to the circuit(s). NOTE - the plug looks original - each prong is the same size, not differentiated for neutral and hot sides. I thought at first the plug prongs were different sizes, but nope. OPERATIONALLY: The DEFROST TIMER stays on a maximum of 20 minutes, cycles off if it's working properly,continuing to turn the heater on and off for defrosting. (it's continuous defrost, then). If it fails, either by age or a shorted circuit and the heater is cycled on and stays on, the High Limit Thermostat will cut power to the heater, so it won't overheat. If the High Limit Thermostat fails, power to the heater in the defrost cycle will keep the heater on. And THAT's when it could get hot enough to melt those parts? How hot does it need to get to melt those parts? Imagine the heat needed! RELATED to MY FIRST TEST: My first operation of running the fridge for 20 minutes caused the compressor to shut down and the floor of the freezer to be VERY hot(could also smell that styrofoam cooking some more). When I tried to run the refrigerator at the OFF/A/B/C/1/2/3 round switch, it wouldn't turn the compressor on. After your instructions, PhilR, about the Defrost Timer, turning it to the right one or two notches, and trying to run the fridge again, the compressor worked. Not only that, but the heater hasn't engaged or stayed on. My next steps: 1) Verify cooling - I really didn't give it any time for that after releasing the fan blower. 2)Test for shorts - parts(DT and HLT)and any other areas you might suggest. 3)Get a licensed tech to test for pressure, leaks,etc. (later after surveying for shorts and bad parts). Thanks, Phil - I'm at subterranean here, learning. I haven't devoured any refrigeration theory books or know how it works, but the Tech Manual is giving me insight, so thanks for sending that. This fridge looks bombed out to me, but I'm hopeful and glad to have your support, to say the least. And I've told you how I approached buying this and what I would do if it doesn't work, so no worries. This post was last edited 10/05/2015 at 12:01