Thread Number: 71274  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Follow-up on LG FL washer...a year later. SQ it is.
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Post# 943379   6/13/2017 at 21:10 (399 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

I had posted last summer asking about what kind of washer to go for. Based on advice, but mostly sale prices, I went with LG WM4270HVA. I was gravitating towards a Speed Queen but went against my better judgement. Let this be a cautionary tale. First off, I'm a very observant person and I derive a great deal of pleasure from doing laundry. Ever since I bought this thing, it has been a major source of stress for both myself and my family. It started with noticing odors weren't being removed either on warm or cold settings, permanent press or delicate. That drove me crazy and still does. I don't like the steam setting bc it breaks down elastic and other components, plus clothes looked even rougher. Right out of the washer they don't even look or feel clean no matter what I've tried. I noticed dirt caked to the bottom of my pajamas. I've done all the trouble-shooting (detergent types and amounts, settings etc) and I'm convinced that these HE washers DO NOT CLEAN CLOTHES and wear them out prematurely. From an environmental standpoint it takes A LOT of energy and water to manufacture and distribute clothing, so for them to wear out so fast negates all good the new rules could possibly do for the environment. All of my tee shirts are pilling horribly. But the last straw was yesterday when I put brand new socks in the washer on cold and they came out pilled and looking 3 years old. I used to be able to throw everything (jeans, tees you name it) in my TL Maytag and everything smelled fresh, looked crisp and clean and lasted years. I don't even remember what clean clothes smell like. So that's it. Selling this piece of sh- and getting a Speed Queen. Attached a pic of all the pilling on my new cotton socks. And no there were no jeans or towels or anything other than cottons in the load. Last one is a pilled tee that has hardly even been worn.

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Post# 943382 , Reply# 1   6/13/2017 at 21:34 (399 days old) by nmassman44 (Boston North Shore Massachusetts)        

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First off I would look to see if you have a vane nicked up in the drum. Then I would look at laundry prep like do you close zippers on jeans and such? Then I would look at what you are using for water temps. If you are using tap cold and never a hot wash for lets say whites, and you don't leave the door open after your laundry day is done, you will get a smell. Or you don't remove the laundry as soon as the washer finishes and you decide to come back a day or two later, that can cause an issue. Then there is the choice of detergent. If one does not use the correct dosage you will have issues.
I have an LG 3570 front loader and never have any issues with what you describe. But thats because I prep laundry properly, sort, and I use a good detergent like Persil or Tide. I also use the TurboWash feature on every cycle. That alone will save time and clean better than just plain tumbling. I have found that the Steam option does very little for performance. I also never use cold water to wash laundry, its either hot for whites on Bright Whites and Warm from everything else. So before you chuck the LG washer figure out what you are doing and go from there. Also overloading the washer will get you the results you describe here. Just my opinion.
Also when you think of getting an SQ washer, if its a top loader as I have one, it aint all that.

Post# 943401 , Reply# 2   6/14/2017 at 02:15 (399 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Hi there,
Appreciate your reply. I don't think there are any drum problems, I felt around in there again. I can't attribute it to that when the inside of the clothes are pilling to this degree. I've been experimenting with everything I could think to do for a year now. I only do small loads, I don't put anything with hardware or zippers in there, just cotton tops, sweatpants, socks, undies. The odors are localized, mainly armpits. They were still there no matter what wash temperature. I think that improved with the turbowash setting and less detergent but it did not help underwear. The machine itself has no odor and the door stays open.I only use cold water now since the fabric was already being degraded by the mechanical action (presumably wet-nap friction.) Pilling is equally bad on the inside so turning inside out makes no difference. I remove wet laundry immediately. I used arm and hammer, regular tide and coldwater, a highly rated powder, but I think Ms Meyers gets things the cleanest. Tide coldwater apparently leaves a chemical on the clothes to prevent dirt build up, and I was allergic to something in it. When I switched to Tide whites started looking grey. I read Tide has a lot of fillers. The turbo wash option has been on by default. I've filled up the detergent to the line, I use a tablespoon now and tried everything in between. It destroys all my socks no matter the brand, screen-printed tees look several years old after a few washes, rips seams apart in high quality towels. Thought I'd share some more pics. I've been buying the same brands of quality socks and tees for years so I know how long they should be lasting. I think this probably happens to a lot of people but they a) don't expect things to hold up anymore bc they don't b) aren't that observant c) don't have anything to compare it to and d) like to buy new stuff all the time anyway (I don't.) Really shouldn't be this hard...Would you mind telling me which model SQ? I was impressed with the commercial machines when I had to go to the laundromat.

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Post# 943404 , Reply# 3   6/14/2017 at 03:59 (399 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

This really proves what a difference in opinions there are about ANYTHING! I have had every kind of washing machine known to mankind and my last, before my LG made front loader, was a Maytag set. I liked them very much and had great success with them. Someone else has them now and uses them daily. However, I like my LG front loading washer and dryer better than anything I have EVER used before. It not only cleans extremely well, it rinses up to 3 extra rinses and everything I put in it comes out clean, fresh and lint free. I used to have the small lint balls on my wool socks too, which I DO NOT have anymore with the front loader. So you see, there are different opinions about EVERYTHING! What one person perceives as wonderful, another person does not. I also think that seeing an HE front loader use so little water is a bit unsettling to most people too. I found that to be true, but as I watch it do it's job, I see that it does do what it is supposed to do with less wear on the clothing than top load washers. My machine is made so the door stays slightly ajar when not in use and I have never had any musty smell or odors. I do regularly use the steam treat option regularly for whites and it does a good job also. I bought the largest capacity machines I could at the time and could not be happier with them in the last 4 years or so.

Post# 943405 , Reply# 4   6/14/2017 at 04:07 (399 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        


First off, sorry you are having trouble with your machines. It's not fun.

If you are ready to kick them to the curb, however, you have nothing to lose, so, in your shoes, I'd try a couple of things.

First off, get an old pair of nylons (or buy the cheapest pair available), and rub them against the vanes in the washer, and also the *entire* basket -- you want to see if anything snags/catches, including nicks in the vanes, some weld or joint not polished, maybe some foreign material is lodged in one/a few of the basket holes and wearing out clothes. Do the same thing in the dryer, it's sometimes the dryer that does that instead of the washer, or sometimes *both* the dryer and the washer are damaging the clothes.

Second thing, is that clothes that have synthetic fibers or even just "durable press" treatments are way more likely to pill than pure cotton or linen. The problem, of course, is that recently getting *good* long staple cotton is very expensive, so many countries are mixing a bit of polyester or other synthetic fiber to "extend" their profits. Since very few mills are still operating in US and most of our fabric (or even ready-to-wear garments) are made abroad, and their laws let them still label the material 100%, there's nothing we can do short of convincing the lawmakers in US to make labeling of such materials more stringent -- I would not hold my breath on that when the current majority of Senate/Congress is on the paychecks from all kinds of manufacturers.

In any case, opinions vary, and a majority of people in fact claim that a *small* mix of synthetic fibers with a majority of cotton or linen does in fact feel better. I'm not sure I agree, but there you have it, we need to deal with the fact that laundering mixed fibers is a thing now.

So, what can you do? To begin with, I'd recommend high quality laundry detergents that have enough enzymes to clean the clothes thoroughly, some of them will contain cellulase, which will prevent/remove the pills or at least slow down their progression; always open a faucet closest to your washer and bleed the pipes from cold water until you see water as hot as possible, so the machine can wash with *actual* warm or hot water.

Tumble washers are not as aggressive with clothes as the old top loaders with agitators, so you will do better raising the temperature. For anything cotton/linen and regular synthetics, this will not be a problem, in fact warmer water will help the fibers flex better. The thing to watch out is silk and/or wool, which might require cold water -- on the other hand so much wool is dry clean only that it may not be a problem.

Another thing I want to go over carefully with you is dryer usage -- read your user's guide and/or call LG and ask them what temperatures your dryer runs at. Why is this important? Because you do *not* want your clothes tumbling in the dryer for too long, that causes pilling and/or shrinkage, so use regular heat or whatever is appropriate for cotton with your cotton loads. I can hear several people screaming "what? everyone including the labels tell me to use low heat!?!" from here. Here's the deal. Up to about 25 years ago or so, there were two different situations: home dryers, that run at about 140F for low, 160F or so for normal and about 180F for high heat; and we had really big and fast dryers, used in laundromats and commercial coin-operated laundries, that often *started* at 160F for low, 185F for regular and went above 200F for high. At that point, yes, you might want to run everything at low heat.

But current home dryers are often running very close to 100-110F for low, 120-140F for regular and barely reaching 165-170F for high. What does that mean to you? It means that any new person who is basically not paying attention or is particular about how laundry is done might be getting better results than the rest of us because they select "normal/regular" in the washer and dryer and get a hot wash and a decent drying temperature that doesn't shrink and/or pill their fabrics and finishes in a decent time. Anyone else drying the clothes on "low" will be drying on very low temperatures it's true, but that might extend the tumbling time when the fibers are not wet/lubricated, so they can shrink/pill/wear out faster, which is counter-intuitive, but confirmed by many institutions that study textiles.

Speaking of fiber lubrication, I would also recommend a good liquid fabric softener (even scent-free ones) in your case. They can help a great deal in cases like that. Resist the urge to overdose them, use the minimal amount that can do the job.

As for going back to a SpeedQueen toploader, good luck. I have only used the old style of their washers (over 20 years ago), did not like it. They were rough on clothes and did not clean as well. Of course, YMMV and we have plenty of people here that live in different localities with different water quality to contradict me, and that's completely OK with me. For example, I've used plenty of front loaders, and have friends who have LG equipment, but I have not used them myself, so I can't offer my honest opinion.

But I *can* warn you that the last time I looked at Speed Queen webpage, a month of two ago, the energy label for their current toploader implies that they are using *much* less energy and water. That may be because they are dumbing down the hot and warm to warmish and cold wash, and/or because they are using just spray rinses instead of deep rinses, or worse, maybe they are not filling the basket with water to the top like they used to, or a combination of all of those. That would cause excess wear too.

People here observed that only the Normal Eco, or whatever the name of the cycle is, has temperature, water level and rinse restrictions, and you can use other cycles just like the top loaders of 20+ years ago.

While that would be great, in your shoes, having been displeased with poor performance once already, I'd ask a billion questions, not only at the store(s), but try to find out friends or acquaintances that have *recently* bought the machine you want. This year's model might differ enough from last or the year before model to annoy you too.

Better yet, call Speed Queen and tell them you need to talk to someone and you have pre-sales questions.

I will say this however: from my point of view, Speed Queen promises longevity/reliability. That is great if it's what you want. But I've seen many people who have greatly disliked their sets (all brands, not any brand in particular) for over 15 to 20 years, and the "reliability" of the set was partly because people did not do any more laundry than strictly necessary, many times washing "delicate" garments by hand.

I'd rather buy equipment that might not last me as long but cleans and preserves my garments very well and doesn't irritate me when I'm doing laundry, which is also a thing that provides me great stress relief with the right equipment (and, like you, a lot of aggravation with the wrong equipment and detergents etc).

In any case, I wish you best of luck in your quest.

   -- Paulo.

Post# 943447 , Reply# 5   6/14/2017 at 14:35 (398 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        
One thing however

I did notice on the 4.5 CF models of the LG's, which are the newer models and upgraded from the 4.3 CF models, is that their cleaning score has dropped to a "Very Good" as opposed to "Excellent" which was found on the older 4.3 CF models. I also did note how the ratings have dropped to just under 5 stars where as before it was 4.5 stars.

Now based off of seeing this as well, I'm HIGHLY considering NOT to buy an LG set for our new house, and maybe just stick with WP duets or Maximas.

HOWEVER, LG units have been known to have "software issues" which severely impacts cleaning performance, this was seen well in Consumer Reports testing where certain models actually got a Poor rating for cleaning due to software issues, however after getting a machine without the issue the scores jumped to Excellent immediately. In this case, call up the store where you bought it from and have them check the machine out.

Post# 943461 , Reply# 6   6/14/2017 at 17:01 (398 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
"software issues"

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That thought occurred to me too, as I had recently read something online about the dodgy software.

Maybe Dreamclean's model simply requires a software update?

Post# 943481 , Reply# 7   6/14/2017 at 18:42 (398 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
In my pipe, smokin' it

If it's software issues and I PRAY to the laundry gods it is, we are due to have somebody come check it out soon for the warranty.
I'm comparing cleaning performance and fabric wear and tear to a Maytag TL I used for many years at a different house on (hard) well-water. I always, always, used the delicate cycle, in cold water with immaculate results on everything. It was effortless. Life was simple then.
Moving to a suburb of grimy but lovable Portland, on public water, we escaped the widespread LEAD panic of 2016...but my former roommate believed that our water was to blame for less than stellar laundry. The water is soft, because it's difficult to rinse out shampoo and I don't see hard water build-up anywhere. His wardrobe consisted of under armour synthetics and when I found myself recoiling from his stench and mentioned it, he agreed that something was amiss. Growing up in NY in an apparel industry family he staunchly advocated cold water for everything to preserve the life of the garment. Since we both had equally bad results removing normal body odor with hot, warm and cold water we stuck with cold on permanent press. In contrast to his synthetics, my loads are almost exclusively cottons which absorb my day to day sweat and I just don't find that they come out of the wash as crisp and fresh as I am accustomed. Ms Meyers detergent has enzymes so that's covered. I just read that cold water cycles use less water, so maybe that would explain all the pilling. I also read cold water won't kill fecal bacteria. Ouch. If the fabrics require warm or hot water to flex, preventing some of this wash wear, based on what I read today I it sounds like I'm trading pilling for stretched out clothes that are faded from loss of dye in higher temperatures. Anything nicking in the drum wouldn't explain the pilling on the inside. And the new pilled sock that sparked my outrage has never seen the inside of the dryer, along with a few other items. Again, just cold on permanent press in a small load. Great insights, and I would like to test some theories in the light of real scientific inquiry. My next step is to add some more rinse cycles and increase my spin speed to reduce dryer time. It's too late for most of my knock-around clothes, so in the meantime I'm considering a trip to the laundromat for my new stuff bc hand washing isn't effective in removing oils and odors from my experience and research. I'll have the machine looked at but I don't think there's one brand out there I have confidence in now if SQ isn't the holy grail some say it is.


Post# 943490 , Reply# 8   6/14/2017 at 19:57 (398 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

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I too would advise the warmer cycles, as others have said.

Detergents usually contain enzymes, which work best around 40 deg Celsius. The warmer water also opens the weave, and helps to melt and release body oils (sebum) from the fabric. Warmer temperatures are also required to remove greasy food stains.

Regarding your terrible odours in clothes: does your detergent contain an oxygen bleach? I have a sneaky feeling that your 'Mrs Myers' detergent is just too lame in cleaning - not enough 'oomph' - most 'Eco' stuff is. Ditch it.

Go for a biological powder detergent with built in enzymes and built in oxygen bleach if you can. The big brands (P&G, Unilever, Henkel) generally have the better formulations, although some of the supermarkets' own versions might be acceptable too - I haven't experienced the American detergent market.

But I do know the British detergent market. Powders clean better than liquids. Powders clean better than those awful 'liquitab' pods. I have found that using liquid detergents alone, body odour does build up on clothing. I have found that powders remove the odours.

Our "Which?" magazine tested detergents and gave supermarket Lidl's 'Formil' powder 'Best Buy' status, matched only by much more expensive P&G's 'Ariel'. Both contain enzymes (six in 'Formil', four in 'Ariel'). Both have oxygen based bleach. Oxygen based bleach helps to remove stains, and more importantly, helps to kill bacteria in the clothing. It does however, fade colours over time.

Post# 943498 , Reply# 9   6/14/2017 at 20:26 (398 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

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For example, Persil Proclean 'Power pearls', apparently on sale in the US, has oxygen based bleach (SODIUM CARBONATE PEROXYHYDRATE), and five enzymes (PROTEASE, AMYLASE, CELLULASE, LIPASE, MANNANASE).

Protease removes protein stains: sweat, blood and gravy.

Amylase removes starchy stains (starched linens, mashed potato).

Cellulase cleans cotton and is supposed to prevent bobbling and pilling.

Lipase removes greasy stains and body oils (sebum).

Mannanase breaks down gum thickeners that are found in foods (guar gum, locust bean gum, xanthan gum).

Post# 943505 , Reply# 10   6/14/2017 at 20:49 (398 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Hi Rolls,
Thanks for the reply. I had tried different eco-brands and I do agree with the general consensus that they don't work that well. However, I keep coming back to Ms Meyers even after buying the mainstream bunny-killing brands. The clothes seemed cleaner and the colors/whites brighter, worked pretty well on odor. I've tried the powders, admittedly mostly in cold water, and they didn't seem to fair any better. Meyers is highly rated and I do like the essential oil type fragrance. I will certainly revisit my biological powder using warm water after seeing your post. I'm afraid I won't be trying an oxygen based bleach if it compromises color integrity, although my nicest things are hand wash or dry clean only so it probably shouldn't matter so much. Like I said before, I think using the turbowash setting (more water, shorter cycle) and less detergent has greatly improved the body odor issue, but I still miss that fresh-from-the-wash scent and the radiant aura of a truly clean load of clothes. I've never even tried the pods (just a gut feeling) so I'm glad to hear a strong opininion about them.

Post# 943520 , Reply# 11   6/14/2017 at 22:09 (398 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

Re:  Oxygen bleach


I've been using it for years and cannot say it ever impacted colors.  Much gentler that chlorine.  


Since your clothes are no longer pristine, you have nothing to loose by trying warmer to hot water and a different detergent.  Try Persil or Tide with a bit of softener such as Downey.  I've tried a number of detergents over the years and keep coming back to Tide simply because it does a good job.  I've got a half dozen bottles and boxes of other detergents that never quite performed as they should - so I know the feeling of getting less than optimum wash results.


Post# 943521 , Reply# 12   6/14/2017 at 22:10 (398 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Ok, so I just bought a liquid Persil $10 for 25 loads on eBay. When they started talking about "10 Diminsions of Clean" that got my attention. Anything is better than the dirty dimension I currently reside in. I know it's not going to solve all my problems but fingers crossed.

Post# 943538 , Reply# 13   6/15/2017 at 01:51 (398 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
About the warm water

Just remembered I used the default permanent press setting with warm water for a few months. So already tried that. I think the pilling also worsened when I used the lower spin cycle. Was doing that to avoid stretching since it seemed to contribute to pulled out threads and misshapen garments. Haven't used hot water, the roommate said it would set stains so avoid at all costs. I've had a year to try everything so I think I've covered a lot of ground, except for the software question.

Post# 943541 , Reply# 14   6/15/2017 at 04:12 (398 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

So, again, I'd like to start this by saying that I'm sorry you're having troubles, it's no fun, and also that I have no direct experience with the machines you have, although I have several friends who own equipment from LG and they're happy with them.

I'd also like to say that I fully understand wanting to kick something you never liked to the curb even if it's not broken. I think it's your call and you should do what makes you happy.

However, I'd like to mention a few more things in case it might help you or other people reading this thread.

It's astounding how many *different* things can be described by very similar words. A friend of mine visited old castles in Europe in the mid '80s and came back home laughing by how every single docent described the castles they were showing as "we tried to keep it *exactly* like it was 300 years ago" and some of them were super clean and some of them were filthy beyond description.

So, we have had every kind of description for LG washers here in AW: some say that when you select "hot" the machine does a warm wash, and when you select "warm" it's barely lukewarm etc. I'd say take some measurements, or at the very least do what you can to feel the door etc. Because yes, you may have been selecting "warm" all this time and getting a cold wash.

All fabrics "pill"/wear out -- it's just that fibers from some fabrics are weak enough that they break and fall off, while stronger fibers like polyester ball up instead and become conspicuous. Polyester also relaxes a bit with warm/hot water and resists breaking, while in cold water, particularly low level, it will be stiff, break and pill.

Let's talk stains for a second. There's a *big* difference between enzymes sold for the Euro market, where most washers will have heaters powerful enough to fill with cold water and heat it to boiling, if necessary, and enzymes sold for the American market, where washers tended to be top loading and fill with pre-heated water. As you can imagine, enzymes for a "profile" wash, where the machine raises the temperature to human body temp and keeps it there for a decent time, then raises the temperature further, are less expensive than enzymes that have to withstand 120-140F pronto. Nevertheless, most low and middle of the line detergents in US are designed to work at the very least well with 120F exposure immediately, and the top-of-the-line detergents in US work so well because they tend to have at least some of their enzymes that work well in hotter water (140F).

There's more: most of the FLs tumble the clothing and fill at the same time, so no stain will *reach* 140F immediately, in fact, the room-temperature clothes and the machine will absorb heat from the water and even a straight 140F hot fill will end up closer to 115-120F, which is why we tell folks to get a FL with a water heater. This will *not* set the stain, in particular, it will remove the stain just fine with detergents that have high-temperature enzymes in them.

The "hot water will set stains" *can* be true in particular for 1940's conditions: detergents with no enzymes, and people used to let the washer fill up with steaming hot water, let it go for a few minutes to dissolve the soap/detergent, then chuck the clothes in, which would expose the stains to 140F instantly, cooking the proteins and setting the stains.

Now, let's talk about "green" detergents. Yes, it probably has enzymes. Most "green" detergents in US up to a few years ago had none, but then, in actual scientific tests, they kept getting to the bottom of the list because they did not clean very well; enzymes are very expensive compared to other ingredients, though, so I'm not sure they have enough enzymes both from the point of view of number (protease, amylase etc) and from the point of view of percentage of weight of ingredients. I think you will have *much* better luck with Tide HE Turbo or Persil, although many people complain about the strong perfumes in such detergents. The other thing I want to make you aware of, is that until American laws become very stringent with labeling, a "green" label means nothing, in fact, in almost every single case it just means that the manufacturer claims "no animal cruelty" when in fact *all* they are doing is waiting for patents to expire (Sodium Lauryl Sulfate and Sodium Laureth Sulfate, two major surfactants, have been *extensively* tested on animals over 50 years ago, and the patents have expired decades ago, for example) and using the ingredients. There's no glory in copying Unilever's or P&G's 25-year old formulas and selling them for a high price -- I think it's dishonest on multiple levels; they could sell it for much cheaper, given that they had to do *no* research and they are using 3-decade old formulas, they could be honest about telling us exactly what they are doing. At this point, I'd rather pay slightly less for TOL stuff even though they supposedly tested on animals. I may change my mind later about that.

I'd like to mention fading too. There are a few things to consider here. For example, did you buy beautiful dishcloths or summer clothing that were hand-dyed and hand-woven in Madras, or similar places? The kind of thing you *know* might bleed colors and/or fade, but are prized *precisely* because of that? Then yes, maybe cold or warm wash is advised.

Almost everything else sold in the US is not processed like that in the last 50 years or so. Almost all fabrics that you see for sale are dyed with a process known as "fiber reactive dyes" (Procion[tm] Dyes, for example). Fiber reactive dyes attach themselves to the molecules of the fibers and do not come off until that piece of fiber degrades, to begin with -- that's why they are known as "colorfast". Things that have the potential to degrade the dye-site in the fiber include strong bleaches (chlorine bleach, ultra-violet rays, sunlight), but usually not regular washing even at 140F. In fact, one of the problems one encounters often with such dyes is that the way to *properly* finish the dying process is to rinse the just dyed fabric very quickly in cold water, then another warm rinse, then it should be washed in hot (140F) water, rinsed and dried. Because that process takes time, energy and money, a lot of manufacturers take a shorter, but almost as good, route: they rinse the excess dye, dry the fabric and slap a label telling the buyer to "wash separately" and declare themselves happy. Most people will maybe wash separately once or twice and toss them in a hot or warm wash with other clothes later. The people who washed the items in *hot* water first or at least warm water will experience a *significantly* longer wearing and new-looking garment, because the hot wash will finish setting the dyes more effectively. More about fabric dyeing can be found in the Dharma Trading website (link below).

I used to keep a few cotton dress shirts my husband and I had: they were black or very dark colors, they were over 15 years old when they finally started wearing out. In the last few months of use they got visibly faded (all of a sudden) and started ripping apart at the seams. The remarkable thing about them, though, and the reason I used to show them to everyone who even mentioned fading, was that the *inside* parts of the cuffs, collars, hems etc were still *very* dark, almost the same color they used to be, while the outer parts, which had been in the sun, were the only parts that have faded. Those were not shirts which had dried on the line in the sun -- they were put in the washer, from there to the dryer and then closets. The only sun they were exposed to were the short walks from parking lot to office and back, or walking around to have lunch. I think we can safely discard any "hot water fades fabrics" or "hot dryer fades fabrics".

I'd like to mention two other sources you may find interesting: Cheryl Mendelson's book (Home Comforts: the art and science of keeping house) mentions one of the reasons she started writing the book was because she was a lawyer and she got appalled that one should *not* have to have a Law Degree to be able to do laundry. Most of the things we see on labels nowadays are there because the law is vague enough to require that care labels have to "mention at least one safe method of cleaning" the garment, not the most effective, not the one that will make the garment last the longest etc. Thus you get so many "dry clean only" labels when *everything* in the garment is washable, but no one bothered to pre-shrink say, the shoulder pads or rick-racks or other trim before attaching them to the final product, so now you get to spend *your* money sending the stuff to the cleaners.

Harriet Hargrave, a famous quilter, studied textiles and wrote a book about it (From fiber to fabric). In it, she mentions asking a lot of professors about the "cold wash is best". Well, what a surprise, what the professors said is that any *good* fabric should have been pre-shrunk at the factory and, in most cases, for most people, the hottest wash they will subject the fabric to is 140F and, back when she wrote the book, most domestic dryers would dry the fabric above that temperature, so it shouldn't matter. Also, they pointed out, "cold wash" is relative: at that time, most of the textile schools and remaining fabric mills were in the South, where a cold wash (with pure "cold" water straight out of the tap) is about 80F which is actually lukewarm, and indeed, many current washing machines dumbed down the Hot to 100F or less, the Warm to 85F or less etc.

I will be frank with you -- *currently* most garments sold in US can be washed safely in "warm" (110F/40C) or even "hot" (140F/60C). The couple of fibers to watch out for: some acrylics are temperature sensitive, most can be washed well until 120F; the one that catches people by surprise is polypropylene, a fiber that tends to be used for "technical fabrics", that is, fabrics that people wear in very cold weather because they are light and insulate well, thus being useful for camping/hiking. Those tend to be in socks, some underwear and t-shirts, for example, and they actually can melt in as little as 120F, so one needs to be careful with wash and drying temperature.

What about silk? What about wool? Glad you asked. Those can resist very high heat, but both get weaker when wet, so it's best to wash them gently. Wool, in particular, can take over 250F, which is why one often finds pressing and ironing boards that have a felted wool batting to cushion the fabric to be pressed or ironed. Notice the disparity here: when the wool is not moving, it can take steam and heat just fine. The problem with wool is that the fibers are very much like human hair, which will take and keep a curl when the temperature gets high enough and then gets rapidly cooled, which tends to felt wool. If you are washing wool, you want to keep agitation to a minimum (to prevent the fibers from interlocking [felting]) and you want to keep the temperature *very* stable, which is hard to do at home with hot washes, and the reason we're told to wash wool in warm or, even better, lukewarm or cool water.

So, with all of that in here for you to mull about, we come back to your problem: I am not sure that *any* of the new washers that *look* like your old Maytag will *behave* like your Maytag.

What can you do? Well, again, ask many many questions. If you can arrange to test drive your friends' washers, do so, with the caveat that by now, what is sold to the home market can be sufficiently different from what you find at the laundromat that I don't consider "I used it at the laundromat" as a real, useful, test drive.

You can try to buy an older set -- lots of people are desperate to get rid of their sets because they want to use the newfangled stuff for sale. You could find a gently used, never broken set. Maybe even one of your friends wants to swap your equipment for theirs, both of you would be happier.

All I can tell you is that my parents like traveling to touristy places and coming back with "the t-shirts" for themselves and us kids. After a few too many times they kept asking me and my siblings how come *our* t-shirts looked brand new after 5 years and theirs were faded and/or worn out, and all of us telling them we wash our stuff in hot water with front-loading washers, they finally got a clue and switched to FL when their set died. They seem happy with it so far.

Good luck!
   -- Paulo.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO earthling177's LINK

Post# 943557 , Reply# 15   6/15/2017 at 08:37 (398 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
"Ok, so I just bought a liquid..."

rolls_rapide's profile picture
I honestly think that is the crux of the problem.

You seem to be, for some reason or other, married to liquids. And I really don't mean that statement in a nasty way.

Powders, by their very design, are the most advanced detergents available, superior builders, better surfactants, improved enzyme formulations and oxygen bleach. The components don't interact with each other in the packet because they are encapsulated within granules.

The oxygen bleach in powder detergents helps to kill bacteria, not only on the clothes but in the machine too.

Machine manufacturers state that "maintenance washes" must be done fairly regularly. These are done empty, on a very hot cycle, with POWDER. Only powder detergents containing oxygen bleach are capable of cleaning the machine properly.

And it stands to reason, that if powders are used for most laundry loads, the machine will be kept much cleaner, far longer.

Liquid detergents cannot contain oxygen bleach, as it destabilises, and the enzymes are rendered useless.

Liquid detergents also contribute to "mouldy washer" syndrome, where mould, mildew and sour smells build up in the machine. This bio-film can even attack the alloy drum spider assembly.

Post# 943575 , Reply# 16   6/15/2017 at 10:15 (398 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
For information:

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"Ultra Tide with Bleach Powdered Detergent"

Ingredient Name {Function}
Sodium Carbonate {removes water hardness}
Sodium Sulfate {processing aid}
Sodium Aluminosilicate {removes water hardness}
Linear Alkylbenzene Sulfonate {surfactant}
Sodium Percarbonate {oxygen bleach}
Sodium Laureth Sulfate {surfactant}
Nonanoyloxybenzenesulfonate {bleach activator}
Sodium Polyacrylate {dispersant}
Silicate {processing aid}
Water {processing aid}
Fragrance {Fragrance}
Palmitic Acid {processing aid}
Polyethylene Glycol 4000 {stabilizer}
Disodium Diaminostilbene Disulfonate {whitening agent}
Silicone {suds suppressor}
Protease {enzyme (stain remover)}
Amylase {enzyme (stain remover)}
Lipase {enzyme (stain remover)}
FD&C BLUE #1 {colorant}


Post# 943589 , Reply# 17   6/15/2017 at 12:09 (397 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Ran across this in a discussion on another board.  It's oriented from the POV of cleaning cloth diapers but should be reasonably relevant to any usage situation.

Fluff Love University - Detergent Index

Post# 943661 , Reply# 18   6/15/2017 at 22:21 (397 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Thanks DaD for the Fluff Uni guide. It was Eye-opening and I learned that my ms Meyers didn't pass the test...they said coconut cleansers trap bacteria. Ditching it. So yes Rolls you got me, I'm married to liquids bc I'm still married to my Maytag. Fortunately, the Liquid Persil was rated as an excellent detergent even for cloth diapers. Paolo, you've given me a lot to think about and I appreciate your insights-- the hot water is a true revelation, among other things. About the dyes though- I have seen a lot of my things release dye into the water when I hand-wash so still unsure about color bleeding with today's fabrics and so brainwashed into associating hot water with fading and wear. But again, the Maytag used cold with such success it seems I'm having to pick up the new machine's slack by changing my habits. After thanking all of you I feel like I'm giving a toast or graduation speech or something. Maybe clean undestroyed laundry is in my future. But anyway, you guys need to write an ebook on this bc I'd gladly buy it. So much misinformation out there plus old habits die hard. I'm chomping at the bit to do a load but still not enough to throw in there.

Post# 943677 , Reply# 19   6/15/2017 at 22:57 (397 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        


I wish you all the success, whether you find an old Maytag set, or find something new that behaves like it or even if you find a new HE set that makes you happy.

I understand, I truly do. Being able to do something that others think of a "chore" as a relaxation/meditation is priceless. For decades I did not understand *why* people hated laundry until I was put in situations (apartment buildings, for example, with "shared" laundry equipment/laundromats) that made me anxious just by thinking about having to do laundry.

So happy that's over for me!

As for hot water and dye transfer/bleed etc. I do suggest that you do some reading in the Dharma Trading website about how to hand dye some fabric. There are multiple slightly different processes, like tie dye, batik, yardage dyeing etc.

See what they tell you and how you feel about it.

I have not actually dyed anything but the couple of times I tie-dyed something or helped overdye gray pants ultra-black for a community theatre group we hang out with.

Once I started washing all my *new* clothes in the same way they tell you to finish dyeing a garment, they started lasting *much* longer.

What I do: *very* quick rinse, a minute or two in cold water in a tub. Swish the garment with similar colors around, squeeze as much water you can without deforming the garments. Fill the tub with warm water, rinse the clothes for 5 minutes or less. Both these rinses are to remove unreacted/unnattached excess dyes -- the dyes can in fact attach themselves to say, a white fabric and that's why you want to remove as much as possible, but you don't want to spend so long that you start removing dyes that *have* reacted but not *fixed* to the fabric.

That's what you do next: 140F water and TOL detergent, it doesn't have to be a long wash, a short wash and through multiple rinses will do fine. If you can't get 140F water, get as close as you can. That should finish the process.

If you can't get your hands on TOL detergents, you may want to get and follow the directions on the bottles of Retayne (to fix the dyes) and then Synthrapol (to remove all the unreacted dyes) so the fabric actually becomes colorfast and stops bleeding. I have had very good luck just washing the garments separately like I mentioned a couple of washes until they start behaving.

Also, like I mentioned before, some traditional processes (indigo blue in blue jeans, madras hand dyed/hand woven fabrics) are supposed to fade throughout the useful life of the fabrics.

Anyway, we hope you find several options that work for you.

    -- Paulo.

Post# 943687 , Reply# 20   6/16/2017 at 00:53 (397 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
What's next

Thank-you Paulo (sorry I goofed on the spelling earlier) I will definitely be trying your method on a new red Organic Australian made cotton top I've been afraid to wash.
Tomorrow we're calling to get a technician to check the machine just in case anything is off. I'm going to get a Tide powder to try along with the liquid Persil, buy some new screen printed tees and socks to experiment with and hit that hot water button. Not as worried about cleanliness as I am the pilling, but if I can avoid fabric softener I'd be pretty happy. I'll check back in after I play around with it some more.

Post# 943697 , Reply# 21   6/16/2017 at 04:24 (397 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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Every new 100% cotton item that I buy gets a overnight soak in cold water with a cup of distilled vinegar. It helps against shrinking and colors bleeding.

That cotton top sounds like it could be a delicate item, so I wouldn't wash it on hot. But every clothing item that one wears on the skin can endure a warm wash (100 - 105F)

Hope in the end you get more satisfaction from your machine than you did until now.

Post# 943740 , Reply# 22   6/16/2017 at 09:24 (397 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Red clothing

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Red dyes usually, in my experience, tend to bleed quite readily. Red garments fade over time, and the sun fades them too. Never wash red garments with a load of whites - they'll end up pink, as you might expect. Never wash red garments with a load of blacks - they'll end up with reddish-brown streaks. It's happened to me in the past.

I wash red items with other red garments, in the machine. I turn them inside out. I wash them in lukewarm-ish water (30 deg C to 40 deg C), with a liquid detergent (bleach isn't in the formulation). I peg them on the line still inside out, so the sun doesn't bleach them. Or they go in the dryer, still inside out.

Black and Navy Blue items I tend to wash together at 40 deg C, sometimes using liquid detergent, sometimes using powder. The powder removes odours more effectively.

Whites and yellows, I wash together sometimes washing at 60 deg C, other times at 50 deg, or 40 deg. I use either a powder for whites or a powder-tablet (powder compressed into tablet form). And even then, I crumble the tablet back into powder form, so that the dispenser drawer flushes clean.

Powder-tablets seem to have been discontinued by several big manufacturers, only the squidgy liqui-tab pods are generally available.

The liqui-tabs have liquid detergent at high concentration, in a dissolvable pouch. There have been instances where the pouch did not dissolve, leaving a plastic gum on the clothing, or on the door seal. Personally, I would not recommend liqui-tabs.

And good luck with wash day!

Post# 943793 , Reply# 23   6/16/2017 at 13:23 (396 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Questions/fine tuning

Great tips, the red top is handmade of an organic cotton jersey with a hand screen printed design, it does say handwash only but I was hoping it could handle the gentle cycles. I had put off thinking about how to care for it in the long-run but I just wore it for the first time. I don't actually have enough (nice) clothes of any particular color to do an actual load of that color.

This brings up some questions...If I'm washing one hoodie or sweater on its own or 1-4 tops how much liquid vs powder detergent? I use a tbsp of liquid for normal sized loads. Since they need to be washed individually, my handwashables rarely see the light of day.
Can screen printed tees handle hot water?
How does elastic handle hot water? Also, synthetic lace?
Anyone have care advice for dyed (dark teal and white) 100% linen sheets? They are handmade as well and it says to use warm water but I wonder if they can handle hot (I have dogs)
I think that covers it all...

Post# 943804 , Reply# 24   6/16/2017 at 14:07 (396 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Hot water is relative to the machine's programming.  Variable per the selected cycle and soil level.  Many produce nowadays 95°F or so for hot on the designated Normal cycle.  Heavy Duty would be warmer, and of course Sanitary or Steam with an onboard heater.

Post# 943843 , Reply# 25   6/16/2017 at 15:40 (396 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

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Hi Dreamclean,

I downloaded the Instruction Manual for your machine, based on the model you gave in your original post.

Page 23 has the various cycles.

The cycle you want for "handwash" articles, is the "Handwash / Woollens" programme. This should be a low temperature wash, with 'much reduced agitation' - designed to prevent felting of woollens. Low spin speed - you might have to run another spin cycle afterwards, at a faster speed.

Cottons and linens (sheets, tablecloths, towels, t-shirts polyester-cotton mixtures) require maximum agitation with high spin speeds. Use "Cotton Normal".

Temperatures seem to default to "warm". This should be absolutely fine.

Use a biological detergent, preferably a powder. Put it in the dispenser drawer, and make sure that the 'liquid detergent' removable 'cup' is removed when using powder.


Post# 943846 , Reply# 26   6/16/2017 at 15:54 (396 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

rolls_rapide's profile picture
Elastic is okay at warm temperatures, be cautious of 'hot' and 'very hot' temperatures, it can perish over time.

Lycra items: wash as "Delicates" , with warm temperature.

Synthetic lace: - check the label. If "handwash" on the label, wash on the woollens cycle. Else it might be possible to wash as "Delicates".

Post# 943891 , Reply# 27   6/16/2017 at 21:36 (396 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Hand wash cycle

Ok yes, I've used all the cycles properly before but was hoping to use hot to kill germs and prolong fabric life as Paulo explained. It sounds like I can't use hot water to kill germs with underwear, which are mostly synthetics, or the linen, which is what I'm primarily interested in. My main question was how much detergent to use for one-five items. My mother's theory is that I can't effectively clean a small load of items on handwash in this HE machine. So that's my problem bc hand washing is said to be poor at removing oils and odor, on top of my own experience and I don't know how much detergent to use for 1-5 items. These are items which are 100 percent cotton, linen or wool.

Post# 943941 , Reply# 28   6/17/2017 at 07:13 (396 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

rolls_rapide's profile picture
It varies according to detergent. Some powders are quite foamy, others hardly foam at all.

Based on my experience, start off with about 50ml of powder.

Regarding synthetics:

A typical Synthetics load will be much less than a Cottons load, typically about half in weight. This is required to minimise creasing.

Our machines had synthetics programmes with temperatures of between cold and 60 deg C. Agitation was 'medium', spinning was short and slow, due to creasing issues.

The 'Synthetics 60 deg C' temperature was for 'White Nylon' (drip-dry shirts and blouses which had to be kept white).

The 'Synthetics 50 deg C' 'Minimum Iron' was for polycotton 'drip-dry' mixtures and coloured nylon (coloured shirts and blouses). Agitation and spinning as above.

There was never an official 'Synthetics 40 deg C' programme - although it could be achieved on some machines, by reducing the temperature dial, or pressing the 'Economy' button.

In its place was 'Delicates 40 deg C' - designed for acrylics (Acrilan, Orlon) jumpers and cardigans. Agitation and spinning as above.

With the above Synthetics and Delicates, the machine could be programmed to stop at the final rinse called "Rinse Hold", until the user activated the final slow spin. This minimised creasing - provided the user removed the clothes promptly.

Modern machines have essentially the same cycles, but with dumbed down temperatures. One of the first casualties was the Synthetics 50 deg C ('Minimum Iron') - usually replaced by a Synthetics 40 deg cycle.

Regarding the handwash cycle:
It is probably too gentle for your togs. Cotton and linen - wash as cotton. Woollens - was as wool.

What EXACTLY do the garment labels say?

Have a look at this article in the link... it's to do with temperatures and detergents.


Post# 944175 , Reply# 29   6/19/2017 at 00:22 (394 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
After hours of research...

Most of the instructions for all my things say to wash in cold water, which I've done along with warm. The issues were still pilling and odor. With the goal of no odor, more flexible fibers bc of heat and clothes that look new longer, I thought I could override instructions based on what Paulo said and use hot. However since these are synthetic undies with elastic, screen printed tees and thin cottons it looks like that might not be a good idea for my particular kind of laundry. I also read a chapter from Home Comforts and she said hot has a tendency to shrink and fade fabrics. The new things like knits say handwash (a thin merino wool sweater), and the linen sweater said dry clean but the designer told me to put it in the machine on delicate. I have a thin cotton James Perse tee that has a unique dye process and says to wash in cold. At this point I don't trust the machine for these things.

I compared laundry with my roommate who uses the same cycles and detergent and does larger loads and combines denim, cotton tees and synthetics. Her cotton tees are nearly the same age as mine, immaculate with no pilling, they are mostly generic or from the Life is Good Company, which are known for quality tees. My things are admittedly more delicate but her Ann Taylor cotton modal top is just as pilled as mine and she said that started quite suddenly (much like mine). That seems to indicate that many of my Threadless tees may have some modal in there but it's happened across brands. I know clothing quality has gone down a lot in recent years so no doubt that has something to do with it. I won't know for sure until I do a burn test. Yes that's next... The only difference in variables is that my loads are smaller and on another forum someone said that is harder on clothes bc there is less cushion. She puts all different fabrics together, which if the Icebreaker company website is correct in advising to wash merino wools with denim to decrease pilling (yes you read that right) then maybe this is a new theory.

Using liquid Persil I washed the red handmade cotton jersey top inside out in a mesh bag on its own using handwash cold like the designer recommended. I thought it looked a little scuffed up in places and the screen print seemed faded. And wanted to cry.

I tried the Persil on warm perm press and I thought it did clean better but I had one cotton hemp tee that was crunchy from the detergent not rinsing completely even with an extra rinse cycle. I only used 1 tablespoon, and I can't imagine using the 1.6 oz the Persil bottle said. This tells me there's not enough water bc how could a tablespoon still be too much?

As for powder, a textile professor said it is better for actual dirt where liquids excel at removing skin and cooking oils. A couple sites said that granules can contribute to pilling by creating more friction especially if they don't fully dissolve. Since the powders dissolve better in warm/hot and a lot of my items say to use cold, I can only try the powder and see what happens.

The tech is coming this week to check the machine so hopefully I'll learn something new. For now I'm exhausted really.

Post# 944187 , Reply# 30   6/19/2017 at 02:11 (394 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
I also read a chapter from Home Comforts and she said hot has a tendency to shrink and fade fabrics.
Thing is, that refers to "real" hot water, tap hot, 120°F up to 140°F.  HE washers nowadays won't get anywhere near that except on a designated Sanitary or Allergen (or maybe Heavy Duty at max soil level) with an onboard heater.

Post# 944205 , Reply# 31   6/19/2017 at 07:38 (394 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
"...and the screen print seemed faded."

rolls_rapide's profile picture
Perhaps it wasn't actual fading, but brightening instead? Most laundry detergents contain optical brighteners which absorb ultraviolet light and reflect it back with visible wavelengths. Whites do look brighter, colours can also be improved.

And before anyone says that optical brighteners fade colours, consider this: optical brighteners have been used in carpet extractor shampoo formulations too, such as Vax detergent. The original Vax liquid (the one where you added separate defoamer) had a violet tinge.

I think Modal fabric (rayon) is a tad more robust than you might imagine. Have a look at this link, below.

Regarding pilling, generally I do not experience it on my cottons. I have an old "Regatta" brand polyester t-shirt which does have awful pilling. Perhaps your tops have a mixture of polyester?

On the other hand, it could be that the quality of cotton they sell these days is just plain old dreadful quality. I have a few pairs of ancient denim jeans which have outlasted the newer 'softer cotton' jeans. The soft cotton jeans frayed and wore out very badly indeed.


Post# 944250 , Reply# 32   6/19/2017 at 13:56 (393 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
I am sorry for the laundry troubles, but I am so glad to see this thread.

I recently switched from a Miele W3038 washer to a LG WM3997 and I was thinking its all in my head, but my laundry is not as clean and doesn't feel the same as laundry from my Miele.

For both machines, I use liquid persil on for the pre-wash, and then either miele color or white powder for the main wash. I programmed the Miele to do two extra rinses, on the LG I always select two extra rinses. I also select turbo wash so I get the added spray.

If I wash Polyester polos or slacks, on both machines, it was always a warm wash with a medium spin. On the Miele I always used a custom cycle with sanitize for my bedding, towels, rags and anything unusually grungy. The LG, I will just usually use hot, the sanitize cycle adds way too much time and it just seems off from the Miele sanitize cycle (the times I've used it didn't seem to help). Also, one difference with my laundry now is that the Miele's were on the third floor. The LG is right next to my hot water heater and directly connected to the hot line out so it has instant hot water.

I don't have a lot of variation in my day to day routine. I typically have the same food spills, the same oil / grease / sweat on my clothes and my stuff just doesn't feel or seem clean like it did from the Miele units. I never had spots left over on my laundry from the Miele and my collars were always clean. Collars are an off color now.

Since I've started using the LG, I've bought more socks and underwear. I thought it was just a coincidence. Also, my high thread count cotton sheets don't have that same feel to them like they did from Miele. They feel heavier.

I've been needing to do my pillows, but I am not sure if I am going to be happy with the results. I was thinking I'd use sanitize and steam on them just to see if I can get the entire pillow clean. I haven't done my down comforter in the LG either.

Anyways, I just thought I'd say something since I was thinking it was all just a mind issue until I came across this thread.

Good luck!

Post# 944253 , Reply# 33   6/19/2017 at 14:26 (393 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
There might be no connection, but you're both using Turbowash and you both have problems. Just saying...

Post# 944269 , Reply# 34   6/19/2017 at 15:59 (393 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
I was thinking that, but I tried without turbo wash for the first few loads, it doesn't put as much water in the tub then. Also, some stuff felt a lot dryer than when I use the turbo wash, so that tells me things aren't getting as saturated.

The physical debris/hair etc is removed better with the turbowash.

I should mention that when I use the turbowash, I do increase the soil level so it makes up for the wash time that it cuts using turbowash.

Most all of the cycles I do are around the 1:30 mark.

Post# 944327 , Reply# 35   6/20/2017 at 01:20 (393 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Synthetic blends and burn test results

Oh yes the dumbed down temperatures, it's something to consider so I'm probably going to experiment with some new inexpensive screen printed tees first.

After reading so many complaints about clothing deteriorating in the wash no matter the brand, it seems mass produced clothing really has gone to the dogs in recent years, and it happens to coincide with the mainstream getting used to HE washers, so the washers are getting blamed. Case in point, I remembered a hoodie I bought last year from a UK brand called Misguided. It was a cotton poly blend, and literally started pilling within two wears. I contacted the company and they brushed me off. It was about a $40 hoodie, but never having seen a washer, that was inexcusable. I had never had that happen with anything before. And you think about all these vintage cotton poly garments on the market with years of use behind them but are still kicking it. I learned that the tendency towards pilling can start at many points during the actual manufacturing process, usually because machines are not calibrated properly and the weave is not tight enough. So it's not materials alone.

I had read the modal article but again I think it must vary with the weave and quality. In the unscientific poll below, it was not rated highly for durability and many comments indicated anecdotal evidence supporting those results. The Ann Taylor shirt that was the only item in my roommates load that was pilling like my (allegedly cotton) tshirts, and was a modal cotton blend. I cut a swatch of that material and one of my tees, and performing the burn test, noted very similar reactions. Both appeared to pull away from the flame, turned black and had a melted effect as seen with synthetic blends. They both smelled like burning paper, had an afterglow and produced grey smoke and a fine ash as cotton is supposed to. Based on a YouTube video showing a cotton swatch, my tee should have quickly ignited on contact-- unless the weave makes much difference. So I do believe my tees are mixed with modal (another cellulose fiber) bc polyester would have had a black plume, chemical smell and hard bead-like ashes.
I found a true cotton tee from another UK company called Amplified that makes rock tees. This shirt has seen a ton of wear and there was no pilling. I believe that the nicer cottons are silky to the touch like this one, so I'm going to be more selective when shopping. As for the red tee, the designer assures me that the screen print looks the same and she has already road tested the fabric with little signs of wear after 100's of washes. Admittedly I've been a little paranoid so I'm going to try to put my perfectionist tendencies to rest now and enjoy the top. I have a lot more confidence in handmade sellers on Etsy than retail designers, who stand by their quality, have pride in what they do and wear the clothes themselves. I plan on getting my socks on there, it seems like Eastern Europe is still producing socks as they used to be made. I had bought some socks in France by a brand called Achile, and they lasted for 15+ years. I know European consumers are a lot more savvy and demanding, I just wish Americans would follow suit otherwise we will continue to be a throw-away society and most people aren't aware of the need to recycle all this surplus. I have considered starting a blog in the past since there is no consciousness about quality and clearly no accountability with the labels or manufacturers. As an example, I bought a sweatshirt from an indie eco-label and realized that the thread tension had caused it to buckle at the seams and created holes. The sweatshirt had been given glowing 5 star reviews (one reviewer even said she bought three) even though it looked terribly frumpy and saggy on the model bc of this glaring defect (I chalked it up to posture initially). When I contacted the designer for a return, she was completely ignorant of the issue even though she had sold many in different colors. She didn't even seem to fully grasp the seriousness of the issue until after a few email exchanges. This is basic sewing 101, and she's had her online boutique, Beklina, for over ten years. Anyway, something has to give and in America we need to raise our standards for a lot of different reasons...
Thanks for listening and all the tips. Feel a lot better about the washer but still have some kinks to get out and a lot of clothes to replace but that's the fun part :)


Post# 944328 , Reply# 36   6/20/2017 at 01:34 (393 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Hi Jkbff, I'm glad to hear this has been helpful. I was actually looking into a Miele the past couple of days so it's good to hear your experience. I just don't think the rinsing or water levels are sufficient..if I used the 1.6 oz of recommended Persil you could probably stand my clothes straight up on the floor. One measly tablespoon ought to wash out fully unless I try half of that which sounds crazy. That was with one extra rinse cycle on warm. I could do three but figured that might be harder on the clothes. The other thing I might try is to add 2-3 gallons of water after pausing the cycle. Everything just feels slightly sticky and looks dull...


Post# 944522 , Reply# 37   6/21/2017 at 17:57 (391 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
After picking the tech's brain

Had the annual Sears check-up on the LG set. Everything looked good no problems. He did say that all the machines since the HE changeover of 2009 do not clean as well as the old TL's especially Maytags and the Speed Queen. About the pilling and worn screen printed tees he said it is definitely caused by the clothes rubbing against each other. So the clothes will get worn down in a FL from abrasion, whereas the TL wear the clothes through shredding. Since I washed everything in my old Maytag TL on the delicate cycle, I escaped both kinds of wear for the most part.

If he bought a machine today he said it would be a TL Speed Queen, that LG's are the best of the mainstream brands and to steer clear of Samsung and GE altogether.
As for detergent amounts, for a normal load in an LG they recommend two tablespoons, less for smaller loads. So I'm fine with that but he wasn't surprised detergent still didn't wash out of some. He advised against adding water as some people have tried since it would just drain bc of the built-in sensors.
The technician has 25 years experience, so pretty confident he's seen it all but didn't know much about Miele. Leaning towards selling the set and getting a SQ again...

Post# 944626 , Reply# 38   6/22/2017 at 06:34 (391 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
"caused by the clothes rubbing against each other."

rolls_rapide's profile picture
That is disappointing. They only way to reduce/delay the problem would be to activate the 'Turbo Wash' for most of your loads.

Have you tried a small amount of fabric conditioner in the final rinse? I know you said you didn't like the stuff, but it might help to lubricate the fibres and delay the pilling.

Post# 944629 , Reply# 39   6/22/2017 at 06:52 (391 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
In My Experience...

mrb627's profile picture

Lack of sufficient detergent contributes to more fabric wear.
Also, additional rinsing beyond the scope of what is needed can contribute to fabric wear.

The water stingy FL machines today aren't as gentle as the models offered 25+ years ago. Add to that the cycles have doubled or tripled in length.


Post# 944631 , Reply# 40   6/22/2017 at 07:35 (391 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
"FL machines today aren't as gentle"

rolls_rapide's profile picture
I would agree with that - on some programmes. Other programmes (Woollens, for example) are now too gentle, and certainly not a patch on the woollens cycles of yesteryear.

I would also say that I think modern programme lengths are hugely excessive. Totally unnecessary. The maximum time of a cycle should be no more than 90 minutes for heavily soiled cottons. An hour should be more than enough for normally soiled laundry.

Post# 944657 , Reply# 41   6/22/2017 at 11:56 (390 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        

While you wait for you new SQ TL...
Enjoy (Don't raise it too high).

I must say, reading this thread made me reconsider getting an LG FL, turbowash does not seem to be all the rage of what it sounded and looked like. I'll probably stick with a WP made FL.

Post# 944692 , Reply# 42   6/22/2017 at 16:17 (390 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Turbo wash

Hi Rolls yes I use turbo wash on everything. Hesitant about softener since it has chemicals & can be gunky, (plus I'm sensitive). And thanks for the video washerdude. I wasn't aware you could do that with LG's. MrB I just started using an extra rinse cycle just on two loads...I could try two tbsp but since it doesn't wash out fully as it is and my loads are probably less than normal size, I don't know that will be the solution. At this point I'm not comfortable putting anything of value in it so I probably won't be experimenting with my new things. It's ruined all of my new socks and they weren't cheap. The tumbling is what shrunk them even with cold water.

I guess in my mind, I visualize optimal cleaning in a TL with the clothes suspended in water sloshing around with the detergent creating an emulsion to lift the dirt/oils. Since the fibers can move freely and expand, the water detergent emulsion can enter and leave the fabric at any angle. On the other hand, I feel the FL's tumbling action doesn't allow for a free-flowing system or fabric expansion and release. They are packed on top of each other and friction is the least effective way to clean clothes, which explains the absurdly long cycles. I wonder if it even drives some of the soil deeper into the fabric...I have many thick cotton socks I think that happened with bc the soil looks as if it got locked up in the fabric. I'm not an engineer but that's the only way I know to explain it. My first experience with a FL was a Bosch in Poland. I noticed it was pulverizing my clothes while my Norwegian flatmate walked around wearing shredded and holey clothing, seemingly oblivious.

I also think it would take a whole lot longer for a TL to "shred" the clothes than it does a FL to pill them, when I'm looking at one wash succeeding with that. I'm hoping if i get the TL SQ I'll get by on the delicate cycle like I used previously.
Also, kind of crazy that these things only last 5-7 years isn't it? I've read the landfills are overflowing with HE machines. What a waste of resources. Planned obselescence should probably be a crime at this point in our evolution.
Going to look at SQ's this week, and the Amana sure did have good reviews so that got my interest. There were quite a few bad reviews but they weren't verified, as someone pointed out.

Post# 944701 , Reply# 43   6/22/2017 at 17:05 (390 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

rolls_rapide's profile picture
Good luck with your shopping for a new machine. It can be a hellish experience!

Regarding Bosch: My mum has a Bosch and it washes quite well. It dates from 2006 and uses a reasonable amount of water to wash and rinse. It was one of the mid-range "German" models, so reliability was better. I have spoken to sales folk in a few shops, and "Spanish Bosch" was the one to avoid, usually at the cheaper end of the spectrum.

My mum's Bosch - I think - washes, rinses and spins more successfully in a shorter time-frame than my Panasonic which uses a miserly amount of water and dithers about whether the spin is balanced or not.

Post# 944705 , Reply# 44   6/22/2017 at 17:35 (390 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Thanks, I went through it a year ago almost to the date. That was on top of a house reno and moving so I'm in a much better place. I don't see an alternative when I can endure info overload better than ruined clothes. This time I'm going with my gut and I didn't have a good feeling about the LG but someone managed to influence me that has since been wrong about just about everything. He managed to talk me out of the SQ at that time. It's funny how gardenweb laundry forum is almost evangelical about SQ and it seems to be the opposite here (maybe).

Post# 944718 , Reply# 45   6/22/2017 at 19:22 (390 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

rolls_rapide's profile picture
I think that between us all on here, we all have had experience of at least one machine that has driven us up the wall - whether it be because of consistently poor performance or dodgy reliability.

Go with your gut feeling, and don't be persuaded by those smooth-talking, 'fly-by-night' salesmen.

Post# 944742 , Reply# 46   6/22/2017 at 20:24 (390 days old) by mtn1584 (USA)        
A Speed Queen suggestion....

Buy the electronic model for greater washing flexibility cycle wise and a 5 year warranty as well.

Post# 944758 , Reply# 47   6/22/2017 at 21:35 (390 days old) by mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)        

A couple of years ago my TL Kenmore bit-the-dust when it locked up on the spin cycle and nearly caught on fire, pouring smoke out all over the house. Afterwards I looked at all the new washers, front load and top load, took my time, and decided on TL Speed Queen, I knew what I was getting and I have never regretted it once. The only thing you have to be careful about with Speed Queen is NOT to overload it, as stated 2 or 3 times in the owners manual, it can cause excessive wear on the belts. Love, love the fast cycle times and saving on detergents, it doesn't take much, and clothes are well rinsed. Also LOVE the simplicity of the design.

I'm not saying it's all-that-and-a-bag-of-chips too, but for what's out there today its probably the best over-built, BASIC designed washer available on the market. It does have its short comings to be fair but I'm willing to work around them. It's a water hog, but that's okay. The washer works for our situation.

Good luck with your decision. And always follow your gut instincts.


Post# 944771 , Reply# 48   6/22/2017 at 22:49 (390 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Hi Barry, glad to hear that. When I was researching SQ machines before I don't think I ever saw any "I hate this thing" type threads. What stopped me then was our friend-turned-contractor-turned-roommate who was pushing us with the shopping part. At the time I thought SQ was out of our budget so I didn't go with my gut then, but I'm a big believer in buying the best you can afford to save in the long run... And looky now, we've come full circle. I don't care about bells n whistles so the shopping should be pretty straightforward...I do all my research beforehand and it will probably be decided before I hit the showrooms. We got the LG's at Lowe's and it was practically point and was on sale and reviews were better than most. It was kinda like "ok not really feeling the HE thing so this is probably the best we can do".
I wish I could have an overloading problem but I hardly have any clothes :0) Just two people so we don't do that much laundry each week and water won't be an issue.

Mike I will def go with your sound suggestions. Hopefully at my next check-in I'll have some great news that will help others in the same boat. This has been driving me bonkers on so many levels lol. Maybe I should swing by the laundromat with the SQ's for a much-needed morale boost.

Post# 944775 , Reply# 49   6/22/2017 at 23:30 (390 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
So reading this things are starting to make sense.

Watch the video about Mieles being made and listen to what Dr. Zinkann has to say.

It's all about the honeycomb drum and the programming.

Post# 944805 , Reply# 50   6/23/2017 at 07:28 (390 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Impressive video

rolls_rapide's profile picture
I admire the way Miele endeavours to ensure that every machine they produce is on tip-top form.

Based on that video, I want a Miele.

Perhaps one day...

Post# 944828 , Reply# 51   6/23/2017 at 09:38 (390 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
The only thing that I *don't* like about Miele is that their appliances are half the price in Germany compared to buying them in America.

A person shouldn't have to spend 14k to get a decent fridge in the US.

Post# 944872 , Reply# 52   6/23/2017 at 15:21 (389 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Sehr gut

Oh man, if only I were rich. My main concern is on the off-chance there was a problem, the repair and parts can exceed the value of the machine. It's the same reason I sold my Saab. I did read that the long-term durability doesn't really measure up to the marketing hype and the parts aren't as quality as they maybe were in the past. But that's across the board for everything. That honeycomb design tho...

Post# 944874 , Reply# 53   6/23/2017 at 15:36 (389 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I agree with the point about the prices of Miele appliances. Miele appliances are a bit pricier than other brands overhere in Europe, but they don't cost an arm and a leg. Apart from the high prices, I would be concerned about parts availability in the long run. It's the same with American products on the European market. That's why I would never buy American appliances for every day use.

Post# 944967 , Reply# 54   6/24/2017 at 03:39 (389 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

While I'm sure that Miele does make great stuff, they're just not competitive in the North American market. Certainly not in the Canadian one anyway.

If Miele appliances are supposed to be so great, why don't they stand behind their appliances with a decent warranty? A 1 year parts and labour warranty that can be extended to three years for an extra $1000? No thanks.

Briefly looked at a W3048 washer and was quoted $3k. Err, Speed Queen is nearly $2k cheaper with 3x the warranty. They can't compete.

What about that debacle with the W4842? A few members on these forums have already had some issues with them and Miele nearly ran screaming from the large format market, probably because price point wise, they can't compete with Samsung and LG. (Good quality costs more, I know, but $2k more then the competition, really?)

Someone at Miele is certainly smoking something. I'm sure the prices on their products could become competitive if they only manufactured them somewhere in North America or (gasp!) Mexico.

This hits a sore spot with me because Miele appliances look absolutely beautiful and they have wonderful engineering. Alliance beats them hand over fist when it comes for "Bang for the buck". My Huebsch machine might be ugly in comparison to a Miele and it has about as many features as a BOL machine, but it gets the job done. (There's no fancy Jeans or "Sandy Towels" cycle, but who cares, it doesn't care.)

If I was ever going to consider purchasing Miele stuff in the future, They'd have to do these things, which I doubt they would do:
1. Open a manufacturing plant in North America. (Canada, US, Mexico, whatever.)
2. 3 year parts and labour warranty with a 5 year parts warranty. (At no additional cost!)
3. Competitive pricing with Alliance products, or maybe a slight premium.
4. Bring back large capacity machines for the North American market.
5. Make inroads to completely destroy LG and Samsung products on the market.

They do these things and then I'd consider buying Miele...

Post# 944979 , Reply# 55   6/24/2017 at 06:23 (389 days old) by retro-man (nashua,nh)        
Back to clothes wearing out

I have been doing my laundry now for over 25 years in front load machines. 1st set was earliest versions of Maytag Neptunes and now Whirlpool tol Duets. My clothes have lasted so long that I am cleaning out a lot of them because I am tired of wearing the same stuff. I have shirts 20 years old that still look great. My underwear never seems to wear out even the elastic bands. I have many pairs of dress and white socks long and short that never wear out nor pill. I buy quality clothing such as Addidas, Nike, Haines etc. I used liquid Tide and sometime powdered Tide. Occasional Downy fabric softener. My wifes clothes are done the same way and she has some pretty delicate items along with business attire along with her night gowns and such. No ripping tearing fading piling etc. All the problems you are facing are non that I have experienced. We have sets of sheets 10 years old that still look like new. Towels are the same, no problems with ripping or shedding. I have no idea what is going on with your clothes, maybe you have acid water going into your washer. Just joking but I am stumped as to your situation.


Post# 944980 , Reply# 56   6/24/2017 at 06:55 (389 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
After reading this thread again I think there are a few problems here that should be addressed first before you buy a new machine.

1. Use enough detergent, not just a bit. It looks like you're afraid of using enough.

2. Small loads. A small load in a machine with a big drum, gets a lot of stress. Fill the drum up to capacity and the laundry doesn't get as much as a beating than it gets now. If your washing machine adjusts the length of the cycle by the amount of laundry it is washing, you might get a longer cycle, but that wouldn't harm the laundry less than being beaten around in a large drum with a few items.

3. Higher temperatures. Everything you wear on your body can be washed at 105 degrees Fahrenheit. Otherwise these clothes would already shrink on your body. Temperatures in your dryer might be even higher anyway. The combination of a decent detergent (again powder!) and a high enough temperature will remove odors much better than the method you used in the past.

Post# 945014 , Reply# 57   6/24/2017 at 11:20 (389 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Regarding the pilling

rolls_rapide's profile picture
I was wondering if the pilling/bobbling of cottons was caused by Dreamclean's machine tumbling excessively when trying to get in balance for spinning?

That might explain why small loads still get pilled, because the load can't readily get balanced, thus the machine drops back to tumbling to and fro several times more.

I know my current machine does more tumbling in order to balance, an awful lot more than the previous one.

I've been experimenting with different load sizes in my 8kg frontloader. One lightweight cotton t-shirt CAN get in balance after a few tries. Three cotton t-shirts take much longer to balance, as they get entangled with each other and end up all on the same side of the drum. This sends an even greater 'out-of-balance' signal to the electronics. Five or six t-shirts seem to work a bit better, as they are more evenly distributed around the drum.

Post# 945061 , Reply# 58   6/24/2017 at 15:51 (388 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Small loads

Hi Jon, happy you've seen that kind of longevity with your clothes. There was a thread on gardenweb specifically concerning LG FL's pilling clothes along with other brands. I'll attach that link for anyone interested.
I should probably define what a small load is to me, it might be medium to someone else... I have a 23" by 14" (58 cm by 35 cm) mesh basket that is filled about 3/4 or more to the top. The load size vs wear was a valid question raised after I compared my roommate's laundry to mine. It makes a lot of sense that the tumbling action could get thrown off. I wonder if it constantly adjusts the time left like the dryer (I've seen the dryer's numbers go up and down) so that I don't have a real idea of how long it's in there. Next time I'll watch the cycle run.

I used to fill the detergent tray to the line, did that for a long time which was excessive as laundry was really crunchy. That's why we dropped it to 1tbsp based on advice. I'll bump it back up and go with 2tbsp like LG says. Any more than that and I think everything will be stiff again.


Post# 945066 , Reply# 59   6/24/2017 at 16:02 (388 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Another weird thing

It also causes all the collars on my tees and sweatshirts to become misshapen and warped looking. I have a very thick high quality Acne Studios sweatshirt and with one wash it stretched out the collar so it looks odd. Took a pic to sell, attached-

  View Full Size
Post# 945124 , Reply# 60   6/25/2017 at 00:16 (388 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
The problem with the collars, couldn't that be a dryer problem?

Post# 945129 , Reply# 61   6/25/2017 at 01:46 (388 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Hi Louis, that would make sense with high heat but with that particular shirt it air-dried bc I didn't want any dryer shrinkage. I believe I used the cold delicate cycle as well. I don't know maybe this is a curse :P It's equally strange the pilling is on the inside of things too, but those who have had that issue found that turning shirts inside out had little to no effect.

Post# 945131 , Reply# 62   6/25/2017 at 02:27 (388 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
That's odd indeed. BTW, could you make a picture of a load of laundry in your machine before you wash it? Then I can see how much a typical load of laundry is you are washing.

Post# 945173 , Reply# 63   6/25/2017 at 06:11 (388 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Warped collars

rolls_rapide's profile picture
I get that on my t-shirts too.

I think it is to do with various factors - including thickness of collar fabric, pliability of the collar, texture and weave of the collar. And the way the collar is attached to the body of the t-shirt. It usually behaves once a hot steam iron has been in contact.

What I do find, is that eventually, t-shirt left and right torso seams get misaligned. Also, t-shirts sometimes get a twist wrinkle on the waist or sleeve hem. They never iron out properly. Obviously a misalignment during the sewing process.

I have also had t-shirts where they have shrunk vertically, but kept their stretch width-wise. Almost as though the cloth patterns were cut 90 degrees in the wrong direction - and I suppose that could happen, if the manufacturers try to fit as many cuts as possible into a given roll of cloth, to minimise wastage.

Post# 945341 , Reply# 64   6/26/2017 at 01:33 (387 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Load pic

Sure! Here's a pic in the basket and washer. It's probably not as small as I've led you all to believe, just relative to what I used to do. When I moved across the country I left behind a lot of stuff.

I did babysit the machine in the garage today, maybe not the best timing since it was 100 degrees. But I did see what's happening with the socks for 7+ minutes at the start. Since they're lighter, they spin out towards the front of the machine, by their lonesome, getting pretty beat up it looks like. Until the rest of the load is wet enough to cradle them for the rest of the cycle. So they must be pretty dry until that point and they get tossed like a rag doll. If I put them in a bag they won't be as clean since I tried that before. So that explains some of the monstrous pilling. I think. And I observed how precious little water is actually being used...It's no wonder the detergent is still caked on there and things aren't clean.

So I'm not alone with the collars. It's the first time I've run into this problem in my 25 odd years of doing laundry. I don't iron my clothes (as much as I enjoy it, seriously) but I do have a steamer so I'll try that. I don't think I've run into the twist wrinkles, probably due more to not paying attention.

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Post# 945353 , Reply# 65   6/26/2017 at 07:17 (387 days old) by Aquarius1984 (Ripley, Derbyshire)        
Problem solved

aquarius1984's profile picture
Your putting such small amounts of cotton clothing into a machine which should hold four or five times as much. No wonder your having wear issues. Cotton loads should be filled up to the top of the drum but not really packed in.

The odd half load is fine if you need something but your asking a machine to constantly wash chronically under loaded cycles then blaming the machine.

Post# 945358 , Reply# 66   6/26/2017 at 08:27 (387 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I agree with Rob, we have a severe case of underloading here. If this is the usual load you're doing, you would be better off with a compact frontloader. I've seen this more often with these huge American frers, most people who buy them don't need a machine of this size.

Post# 945360 , Reply# 67   6/26/2017 at 08:36 (387 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Turbo Wash option

rolls_rapide's profile picture

If I were you, I would use the turbo-wash recirculation option for EVERY wash, where the machine allows it to be set. The reason being that the recirculation helps to wet the laundry faster, mixes the detergent quicker, and assists in the rinsing too.

Does your LG, by any chance, have a tilted drum/tub?

I had an older Panasonic with a tilted drum, and when fully loaded, I often got the impression that the centre of the laundry was never properly saturated. The drum lifters which also scooped and sprinkled water, were positioned towards the back of the drum, and although there was a 'fresh water spray jet', it only activated on filling for wash and rinse, because it was linked to the dispenser fill valves. One particular irritation was the Woollens programme. Due to lack of drum movement, woollens would sit out of the water for some time.

Prior to that machine, I had a Zanussi - also with a tilted drum, but it had a recirculation pump. The laundry got thoroughly and properly saturated.

My current machine is a horizontal drum Panasonic, again with a recirculation pump. The load does get soaked more efficiently - even the wool cycle, which although it has the same drum action as the old Panasonic, the recirculation of wash solution helps to 'wet-out' the clothes in a quicker time-frame.

Below, is a youtube link to someone else's Zanussi IZ16S. I had one identical.


Post# 945368 , Reply# 68   6/26/2017 at 10:11 (387 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Lightened copy of Dreamclean's pic for a better view of the load.

  View Full Size
Post# 945422 , Reply# 69   6/26/2017 at 17:30 (386 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

My Bosch in Europe was a compact but it still destroyed clothing. But yeah it's a rookie mistake, too big a FL washer for our needs. Could have avoided this problem entirely with a TL SQ since gravity is the issue. Between two people we can't combine our laundry since hers our mostly darks and mine light. So now it looks like I have to go buy several packs of Hanes tees or sheets just to fill the thing. Looking at the Samsung website however, link below (since there are few specifics online about what these FL's are designed to handle) our loads aren't that out of the ordinary. Also those doing larger loads for their families experienced odors and pilling so it still doesn't solve the problem for them. One guy said he had heard LG's are "the worst" for pilling. Or the person who for years had used a primitive washer in Thailand on their cottons only to return to the States and use a new FL one time and their entire load was pilled. So it's a big enough complaint that SQ dealers advertise that they won't pill or snag clothing.

Yes I use turbowash every time.

It's not going to suit my needs either to use it for knits or just a few items. That went fine with the TL Maytag. And spending a good hour reading SQ reviews, with so many people ditching their HE FL's and "FINALLY" experiencing clean laundry again using more water and an agitator, I still can't get on board with their cleaning ability. Plus the parts are crap and it's criminal to make a huge appliance that only lasts 5-7 years.
I did just run across a little ecofriendly washer called the Drumi, has won some design award and might be another option for those on a budget or with small loads. $230 US:


Post# 945426 , Reply# 70   6/26/2017 at 18:14 (386 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Over n out

I'm keeping the roomie updated on your advice and asked if she thought my load was too small for the washer. She is a much more knowledgeable domestic goddess than I but gave me that "Are you crazy" look and judging from my basket said it wasn't much smaller than hers. She reassured me that my load size is fine and based off of the Samsung diagrams, the machines are designed with this in mind. No doubt it probably helps to have larger loads and even then I wouldn't dare put anything expensive in it. Right now I'm sitting on designer things I won't wear until I'm confident about my washer. So for me that seals the deal and I truly appreciate all the advice. It seems most techs and appliance people agree that SQ is the last of a dying breed and I feel a sense of urgency to get one before they get bought out and start cheaping out or gov mandates encroach on their brand.

Post# 945427 , Reply# 71   6/26/2017 at 18:24 (386 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        

rolls_rapide's profile picture
I wonder what makes the LG machines pill clothing?

Could it be the design of their drum surface? All those knobbly bumps rubbing against the laundry?

Or could it be to do with their '6 Motion' agitation? Possibly the tumbles go on for too long?

Maybe it is a combination of factors.

Nevertheless, I can well imagine you being very irritated by the whole experience.

Did you go and have a look at Speed Queen models?

Post# 945441 , Reply# 72   6/26/2017 at 20:08 (386 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

All good questions, and I sort of discounted the knobbly drum theory since clothes are pilled on the inside as well. That doesn't seem like the right physics to explain it. I would venture to guess it's the 6 motion agitation, maybe too much of a good thing and insufficient water. As far as load size (again) it was pointed out to me that most standard laundry baskets at full capacity constitute one load. Since mine is nearly filled to the top with a few inches gap, it's still pretty much standard.

We just talked about going tomorrow. Honest to god if I started to experience clean again it would feel like a spiritual rebirth. I've read so many positive reviews by now I'm on the verge of radicalization :) The gripes people have are pretty minor (usually dryer related, no end of cycle timer). I could fully relate to their complaints about the machines they had previously. One lady actually bought 4 washers over a 16 month period, with the last being a SQ TL bc her husband works on cars so none of the HE washers got his clothes clean except that one. A few stated that it was getting out years old stains the other machines couldn't budge. Dry clean only clothes faired well on the delicate cycle which is important to me. A lot of people ditched their perfectly good HE's-- one woman was sitting at her desk at work and smelled her own odors coming from her clothes. Her husband had experienced that as well so they got the SQ and had perfectly clean results. I actually do like the LG dryer so I hope I can keep that. The tech said the dryers last a long time. No idea what I'll be able to get for the machine that's a year old or if we should hold onto it if I move out and take the SQ.

Post# 945465 , Reply# 73   6/26/2017 at 20:55 (386 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        

Save the lg until you run the speed queen through its paces and are satisfied. If you have the space, hook up both and use the lg for bedding.

I currently own the lg wm3770hwA and the match dryer. I also have the sidekick which is amazing. The washer is one of the best I have ever tested.

My previous set was the speed queen 9 series top load with matching dryer. The washer was a good performer, but was a bit rough on my clothes. The dryer is not very good. I would be surprised if you actually had better results with the queen. Please let us know as my results are the opposite of yours.

Post# 945475 , Reply# 74   6/26/2017 at 22:03 (386 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Ok, really good to hear your views on both. If it ended up being rough on the clothes in a different way I would be absolutely gutted. As I mentioned a while back I was hoping to use the SQ delicate cycle for everyday clothes as I always did before w Maytag. Perhaps that makes all the difference in wash wear, bc the tech seemed to think that was a good idea. For now I think what I'll do is buy a few new tees and some cheap sheets for filler. See how performance and wear goes, I'll even try some fabric softener. If I'm not satisfied I'll increase the water level. One option is to run everything on the bulk cycle since it uses more water. And I will follow-up either way bc it's my style and I hate it when people say they will and they don't. I just didn't want to experiment with more things that will get ruined but it's still cheaper than getting a new washer obviously, if I can find the patience. Never had to deal w so many variables for something that's always been straightforward and enjoyable for me.

Post# 945493 , Reply# 75   6/26/2017 at 23:07 (386 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

I think we have a winner. So I'm reading the stellar reviews on the LG Sidekick, never even heard of it before...Seriously, Eugene, thank-you and best lead so far. It's sounds like it's exactly what I need, a tighter smaller drum so stuff doesn't tumble excessively, horizontal, short 37 min cycle, dual purpose w pedestal, and the unheard of 10 year warranty on the motor. People are saying it performs great and sweaters and delicates keep their shape better than in a large drum. I think I'm literally salivating, on sale at Home Depot for $479. A pedestal alone is nearly $300. Whew, maybe this is the solution I've been looking for. Starting to feel like everybody's input has been leading to this, thanks to all for going down the rabbit hole w me.. Going to see if it's in stock at my Home Depot down the street.

Post# 945500 , Reply# 76   6/27/2017 at 00:13 (386 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

There is a long thread on the side kick if you do a search.  It may or may not fit your needs. 


I'm surprised and to be honest a bit puzzled how different people have such differing results with similar machines.    For many many years I had TOL Kenmore TL machines and was quite happy with them.  Decided to experiment and bought a Duet FL machine, used, and was a bit apprehensive. After I got used to it, I bought a second one, this one with steam.  My TOL Kenmore TL still sits unused in my laundry room with the 2 Duets doing all the work.  I've used a TOL Kenmore with a wash plate and I will never let one of those POS units in my home.  I'd run from any wash plate machine, though others here will disagree.


As others have said I find no wear on my clothes, and stuff is as clean or cleaner than in the past.  I use the steam option now and then and find it works very well.  I use Tide, and could not be happier with the results my Duets produce.  My cotton T's are fine, no pilling and no stretched out collars, Though they are some of the few things I toss in the dryer.  Dress shirts and pants are hung to dry, even my jeans.  Towels and bedding are about the only thing that sees the dryer other than the afore mentioned T's and my underwear. 


The Duets do temper the water, though I keep my water as hot as it will go, 150-160 out of the tap. but I rarely wash in cold, make that never.  I also often choose a warm rinse depending if it's an option with the cycle I use.  From what I've read in this thread there are a few variables, clothing type is one.  Wash temp another  as is detergent.  I will be interested to see if things resolve themselves with a different machine.

Post# 945509 , Reply# 77   6/27/2017 at 02:33 (386 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        

This has truly been on of the most interestingly intriguing threads I have ever read. It really does show how all front loaders despite having the same appearance in design, behave differently from one another causing issues here and there.

Judging that load I really can't see anything wrong with it. That size load is what I put my in my WP Duet WFW72, 70-80% of the time and never experience issues. I've heard people from time to time throw around a rule saying not to wash towels with clothes...well if I see a stray towel or two hanging around, and theres space in the washer still, I end up putting them in, turning the machine on and walking away. Results are excellent with no pilling or anything, I've done this with my old Tl'er as well and experienced the same thing. We have always used tide powder in both machines and never experienced uncleaned clothes.

Another thing with what I've noticed with my old TL and FL, is that lint in the dryer on the screen with my FL, has decreased dramatically to the point I often don't even bother to clean the screen out load after load. In my old TL, you could expect to clean it after each load. So that there tells me gentler performance.

At this point, all I can think of is all that dry tumbling during the sensing phase and the stupid pulsating fill. Here's a mini experiment of what you can do sitting right at your desk, take your shirt that your wearing and rub to sections of it together gently, this mimics the early sensing and pulsating dry fill phase of what the LG FL does, I myself can feel and tell how this could easily cause pilling overtime of laundry.

Pilling occurs when the individual fibers in fabrics which are tightly held together, begin to come lose and that's when you begin to see fibers sticking up making rough spots, of course the cause for this guessed it clothes rubbing together, but mostly when dry.

But back to LG's sensing and filling. LG FL's without turbowash probably experience the most pilling which would explain the gardenweb thread as due to the pulsating fill on turbowash- models, clothes are being tumbled for much longer dry including the sensing phase. On the turbowash+ models (yours) clothes probably still face too much dry time as when water most likley enters the tub through the jets, the clothes are just partially saturated leaving some dry spots, and the weight of the wet clothes rubbing up against the dry parts of some fabrics can cause pilling in turbowash models too. Even the spin distributes do some really elaborate moves which further add to pilling.

BUT, here's to another possible pointer. LG recently updated all of its FL model baffles to a more updated, curvy design similar to SQ FL's as opposed to the old chunky square, short but tall baffles. Could the baffle changes some how could've helped or remove gentleness?

LG Normal Cycle (Courtesy of DWV):

WP Duet Normal Cycle (Courtesy of DWV):

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Post# 945514 , Reply# 78   6/27/2017 at 04:29 (386 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
The rub

It's easy to overthink things like this. I can see how to a European used to compact washers, mine seemed under loaded. I'm sure it's probably not helped matters, but there are millions of single people using this size washer for their personal laundry and the engineers surely keep this in mind during the design process.

Washerdude, totally agree with you. After sitting through the cycle and intermittent sprays of water, it seemed to stay too dry too long. I think a lot of the pilling could be avoided with a fully saturated load at the beginning. As far as the lint, I had bought a linen coverlet and sheets, and the amount of lint each time in the dryer astounds me. Now from what I read linen doesn't generally do that. So it's got me wondering if my sheets are getting seriously beat up. I expected to have them for a really long time, but the amount of fiber sloughing off each time has me concerned. They aren't junk either, but handmade in Lithuania which is supposed to be one of the more superior linens. They are stonewashed for softness but doubt that's the reason...
If the Sidekick has more controlled movement, being small and horizontal, and hopefully more water relative to drum size, then I'd feel a lot better putting the valuable stuff in there. Probably experiment with some cheap wool sweaters or something. Def going to take a look at that thread tomorrow, but this seems to be the cheapest workaround for now and the July 4 sale is exactly when we got the LG set last year. It's usually $700+. Full circle.

Post# 945526 , Reply# 79   6/27/2017 at 06:14 (386 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
I'm still puzzled by the fact that single people buy such über capacity frontloaders if they do only small loads, but that's perhaps a subject for a different thread.

I hope the Sidekick gives you the solution to your problems.

BTW, do you get a stream of suds running down the window like in the videos too?

Post# 945531 , Reply# 80   6/27/2017 at 07:18 (386 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        
Same here Louis

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We used an Asko all these years for the two of us...with king sized beds and quilts, lots of towels, my uniforms, 4 cats, and quilted sofa covers.  Everything fit fine.  I tried one of those big machines and ended up returning it...too darned big and couldn't balance correctly.  The Miele w1986 is a little larger than the Asko was but still considered compact.  Plenty big inside.  I actually use extended cycles on most of my loads and have zero issues with pilling. 

Post# 945534 , Reply# 81   6/27/2017 at 07:28 (386 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Drum baffles/lifters

rolls_rapide's profile picture
Interesting indeed...

Washerdude's diagrams of the drum lifters resemble the ones fitted to my Panasonics.

The old tilted drum machine had the first type, the baffles made contact with the back wall of the drum. Obviously engineered to handle the small puddle at the back of the tilted drum.

The current horizontal machine has smaller, wavier baffles, plonked in the middle of the drum. So much so, that small light articles (e.g. socks, or lycra) can scoot around the ends of the baffles, and not actually be lifted up.

Post# 945557 , Reply# 82   6/27/2017 at 10:33 (386 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
The LG video...

rolls_rapide's profile picture
Hmm, I can see why Dreamclean is highly suspicious of the rinsing - I would be too. A lily-livered spray rinse and one normal rinse?! Barely enough to dismiss the foam, let alone rinse the clothes.

That's the sort of nonsense programming which goes into those 'ultra-quick 15 minute' rapid washes, where rinsing is barely done at all.

Post# 945559 , Reply# 83   6/27/2017 at 10:38 (386 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

The Duet sure does get things saturated almost immediately...pretty impressive. It would be nice to have an engineer's perspective on the baffles, I could go so far as to raise the question on Quora. I didn't see any sudsing on the door with this last wash. And everything pretty much stayed in the back with the exception of a few socks.

As for the size issue, honestly it didn't even occur to us to get a compact washer. I don't even remember noticing them at the store. Of course there's the bigger is better mentality, but it all went according to what we thought at the time was "standard" and this fit the bill. Also being such a costly appliance you expect to have it a long time and have a tendency to think it may be more than you need now, but what make bank next year and buy yourself a whole new wardrobe...a Cali King sized bed...or even "meet mr or ms right" who has kids, and suddenly you're doing laundry for the Brady Bunch. It's probably a US thing but we tend to live in the future tense and it's ingrained in us to be prepared for any contingency. We're also home to a whole subculture of "doomsday preppers", Kanye West being one of them with his bomb shelter complete with lap that's an extreme example of that mentality.

Post# 945797 , Reply# 84   6/28/2017 at 23:25 (384 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Latest casualty

Did a FULL drum NORMAL load of towels on the towel setting and it ripped the seam apart for a good 12+ inches. It was my fav towel, only a few months old. It was balanced, with only towels, nothing weird, so you tell me it's user error. .

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Post# 945800 , Reply# 85   6/29/2017 at 00:27 (384 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Haven't followed the thread much...

But have you checked the entirior? Take a sock, and carefully wipe above any surface laundry could touch, both wash and dryer. Sometimes, there are hidden dents that have sharp edges...

Eidt: Second idea. Heat causes both the dryer drum and the washer drum to expand ever so slightly.
On the dryer, items can then get caught between drum and the ends. On the washer, that could cause an edge to slightly pop up.

At this point, you might try to go the route of whining to the store you bought it in and demand a replacement.
First try to be super nice, and if they deny, be more angry and annoying. Sometimes works charms, depending on the people you have to deal with

Or, AFAIK, the SS drum of the washer is covered by that 10-year warranty. Maybe LG will change the drum with that in mind.

Post# 945814 , Reply# 86   6/29/2017 at 04:40 (384 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Pinch point

mrb627's profile picture
First, are you sure the tear happened in the washer and not the dryer?

Second, when you heavily load one of the uber sized washers, the wash tub can settle slightly and create a pinch point where clothing can get caught. As tumbling continues, damage will certainly result. So, you may have some play in the spider mount or in the bearing housing.


Post# 945839 , Reply# 87   6/29/2017 at 07:50 (384 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Pinch point...

rolls_rapide's profile picture
I wonder if a loose thread has been caught between the plastic drum lifters and the metal drum?

I have had that happen a couple of times to ancient frayed towels, and once to a net bag which had a loose seam thread.

Check your drum lifters are securely fixed in place. They shouldn't move or slide in any way, if they're properly fitted.

Also, check each drum lifter for any plastic flashings or burrs, especially where the lifter meets the drum metal - there might have been a fault during the plastic moulding process, and somebody in finishing might not have nipped it cleanly off.

Post# 945902 , Reply# 88   6/29/2017 at 16:44 (383 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Went over both drums w the rough spots or anything. There are other places pulling up on the seam--some are smaller than others and just starting out. We both think it's the washers spin cycle since it was on high spin and last few times we used medium. It wasn't particularly heavy as there were sheets too. I've noticed seams becoming unraveled (after wash) on other things that did high spin. Going to babysit some more loads and check the drum lifters. Anyway, not going to bug you guys anymore! Even if we have to get the tech back over here. Will find some sort of solution and report back.

Post# 945912 , Reply# 89   6/29/2017 at 19:41 (383 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
High spins

rolls_rapide's profile picture
I wouldn't have thought it would be the high spin speed. I think I read in the online manual for your machine, that it spins at a maximum of 1300rpm.

The high spins are specifically designed for cotton and linen articles - especially important if tumble drying.

Whatever is causing the damage, I can well believe that it's infuriating.

Post# 945922 , Reply# 90   6/29/2017 at 22:55 (383 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Yeah, having a serious case of cognitive dissonance since I'm used being able to fix things. 🤞

Post# 945923 , Reply# 91   6/29/2017 at 22:57 (383 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
*used to lol

I need a drink

Post# 948397 , Reply# 92   7/15/2017 at 20:50 (367 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
💡💡💡It's all here.

Hi All,
As promised, I have come to a resolution following hours of research, watching my washer run with a flashlight, and taking pages upon pages of notes. It's moved way beyond the personal realm-- these problems are more global in scope. I have tried my best to leave no stone unturned. First I'll start by ruling out the basic theories and then give you some real meat to sink your teeth into.

Quick recap: My LG FL washer has been pilling my clothes and it's worse the past few months, causing misshapen crew neck collars, and failing to remove some odors and grime.

Theory#1 : Underloading

From "Laundry, The Home Comforts Book of Caring for Clothes and Linens" by Cheryl Mendelson
Load size:
✅For optimal cleaning and a balanced machine, every load should be mixed with large and small items.
✅At a minimum you should have what your machine designates as a small load.
❌Overloading leads to far more damage, detergent build-up, unloosened soil and pilling.
👍I have been well within the normal range for load size, according to both LG and Samsung for comparison. LG actually recommends Permanent Press, Delicates, and Handwashing specifically for small loads. I have always used Perm Press and mix both small and large items, similar fabrics. The machine has not shown signs of any trouble balancing when I observe the cycles. The Speed Wash setting is designed for 2-3 items but I don't use it. The purple shirt (attached) and two other items did not fully rinse even using a tiny amount of detergent so I have no plans to use it in the future either.

Theory #2 Use more detergent or fabric softener, it lubricates

👎The problem with this is the small amount of detergent I am using (dropped from 2 tbsp to 1.5-2 tsp) isn't rinsing out. It's easy to test if you air dry various items and they are crunchy once dried. You probably won't notice if you put everything in the dryer because it softens the residue. I tried natural Ms. Meyers (crunchy), Persil Liquid (much crunchier) and Tide Powder (crunchiest). Trying different water temperatures and even adding an extra rinse or two made very little to no difference. Since I've used Ms. Meyers for so long I can attest to it's ability to leave the fibers more pliable and easier rinsing while the commercial brands are harder to rinse and really stiffen up garments. I actually found my whites turning grey after switching to Tide Free liquid for a short stint.

Theory #3 LG machines don't add enough water at certain points in the cycle

👍I have observed items tumbling while covered in patchy bubbles of soap and still dry in most places. I can't imagine that a concentrated product sitting on top is very good for fabric undergoing friction or allows the soap to begin doing it's job. It makes sense to saturate the load with water first. I had also noticed soap suds at the beginning of the spin cycle. Some LG models actually have a "Water Plus" setting that adds a gallon to both the wash and rinse. Users of this feature commented that it had made a major difference in the overall cleanliness and rinsing ability. It would be nice if that were standard. LG told me that some models had recently had a problem with not enough water during certain cycles, but my model was not included in that bulletin. To increase water they recommended washing items on the Bulk Cycle, adding rinses or setting the soil level higher. I've had poor results even with multiple rinses. Even using the Bulk, after running three Tub Clean cycles, my pillow cases still air-dried stiff from residue but straight out of the wash everything felt and looked cleaner to me and there had been very few suds before spinning than in previous washes. It's really eye-opening to see tons of suds right before it goes into spin.

Theory #4 Use hotter water to dissolve detergent and the fibers can flex better

👎 I just can't. Most of my items are natural fibers labeled cold wash only. Even my 100% linen sheets are not supposed to be washed in anything but cold. Plus, the elastic on synthetics would get broken down very quickly. Supposedly the new detergents wash just as well in cold so that some retailers have changed their care instructions from warm to cold.

Theory #5 Switch to powder, it cleans better

👎 This is completely dependent on the type of soil you are dealing with. From "Home Comforts": Granular works better on mud and dirt stains because it uses "builders" for its power. Liquid detergents rely on surfactants and excel at organic stains like blood, gravy, and grass. Liquid detergents also dissolve more readily in cold water whereas powders, unless specially formulated, will not. Also, according to a textile scientist, liquids are better at removing body oils, fat and food stains. These are my main concerns. Powder is said to contribute to pilling in some cases. I also found that the Tide powder was the most difficult to rinse of any I tried and the Sears technician recommended liquid. Again, it depends on the type of soil you are dealing with. If I worked with cars or in landscaping, I would likely try something else. It's also really important, at least with LG, to pretreat odors and stains. I'm now using a pet enzyme spray for proteins (saw in an Amazon review), acidic water from my Kangen alkalizing water machine to spot kill odor-causing bacteria, and LA's Best Stain Remover Spray.

Before I go any further, a few points should be addressed pertaining to the subjective nature of this topic. The first is that everyone has a different idea about what "clean" is. For some, it's the smell of Tide, dryer sheets, and no visible stains or dinginess for example. A lot of times it's connected to sensory impressions dating back to childhood. Some people have a poor sense of smell so they simply can't tell. If you don't have body odor that's half the battle. Our visual acuity and sense of smell can drastically decrease with age. It's also based on experience. Even if you can't see the remains of a stain, the proteins and oils could still be left on the fabric. So clean is a construct, based on perception-- it's psychological. While it's also true that "clean" in actuality smells like nothing at all.

Since none of us are conducting rigorous scientific tests on the machine's performance we can't say with any certainty that it cleans well-- it's more like "it cleans well enough". In the case of this washer, when put under the lens of scientific scrutiny it is rated above average but not excellent. The Sidekick fairs even poorer on with stains like blood, sweat, and dirt frequently left behind while being gentler on clothing. Methodology :

And lastly, even if you've had no problems with your particular HE FL machine, there are still other variables at play besides what I've already mentioned. Your laundry itself could look very different than mine, from the fabrics to the type of soiling you experience. The technologies vary greatly. LG for example has the 6-Motion tumbling and Turbowash which reduces cycle time, which may or may not be more aggressive than similar processes in your washer. These machines are computerized, incredibly complex systems, so following the maxim "As above so below", the solution itself is an interconnected web of variables working harmoniously.

☝️ My own lint test seems to indicate that Turbowash is significantly harder on fabrics than a regular cycle, producing about 3+ times as much lint in the dryer for the same laundry. I have attached pictures of the end results of washing a teal linen coverlet and white linen sheets + cases on both settings. Linen is highly durable and not a textile known for linting. I can't be sure, but I think I might have deactivated Turbowash for the first several months of use just because I thought it sounded like an unnecessary and harsh setting.

🚨Moving on, let's talk about detergent. If you read other washer manuals you'll quickly find out that appliance and detergent manufacturers can't seem to agree on HOW MUCH TO USE. Detergent makers are certainly not going to tell you to use a minuscule amount because that's a conflict of interest, especially since HE detergent sales have been plummeting. A 20 year appliance veteran at Best Buy laughed and said NEVER follow the detergent instructions. GE's FL manual says to use the amount instructed on the detergent label. LG's official stance is to use half that. A Sears Technician told us LG recommends only 2 tablespoons per load. Their dispenser holds 5 to the line. A popular cleaning blog, "The Spruce" says to use only 2 tsp maximum per load. Throw into the mix the 3X, 8X, 10X concentrated (marketing gimmicks), natural detergents, and high viscosity detergents, and you have a logistical nightmare no one is even aware of.

🔑This is key: I was told by the Best Buy expert mentioned earlier that THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE FOR MACHINE FAILURE IS DETERGENT RESIDUE. When she worked for the repair department she saw how technicians would take apart the machines and they were filled with gunk in locations no one would ever expect, even the bearings. Basically anywhere susceptible to water would also be filled with detergent residue.

💣LG said not only can residue in the tub (meaning on the other side, that you can't see or feel) throw off the sensors which makes balancing difficult but that can result in EXCESSIVE friction on the clothes. To further complicate matters cold washes could easily contribute to more machine residue. How many people are actually regularly running Tub Clean? My guess is, not many. I just had a friend come to visit and she has never run Tub Clean in 6+ years. Especially when units usually come with homes and Americans move frequently. Even if you DO read the manual, LG downplays it in my opinion by making it sound like it's only necessary if you use excess detergent, or have the unit located in a humid space (to prevent mold and mildew). While LG officially "recommends" it monthly, GE's manual makes it mandatory... "should be run at a minimum every month to control the rate of accumulation of soils and detergent." GE even has a 2X and 3X HE detergent setting in their dispenser tray on some models.

☝️For my own viscosity test I dipped my pinky finger into three different liquid detergents, rubbed my hands together vigorously and timed how long it took to wash them off. Ms. Meyers and Tide Free took only 7 secs to fully rinse off with no residue. Arm & Hammer came in second at 15, but left a patchy, sticky residue even after it dried. Persil took a good 30+ seconds and it never felt like it was fully rinsed, leaving an even nastier slick feeling dry. Taking into account the hardness or softness of water, this could vary somewhat.

Obviously, the optimal amount of detergent is going to be relative to its viscosity and how concentrated it is-- that's going to have a huge impact on the amount of water needed, cleaning, and rinsability. Now we're getting into something about as abstract as derivatives to most people. I also read that these detergents are designed to soak or sit for a considerable amount of time. If you use a shorter cycle (like Turbowash) the results might be less than optimal. LG even points out in their manual that some detergents are difficult to dissolve or have high viscosity which will leave a residue on the tub and may not rinse properly. Well, how in the world is the average person going to know their detergent is "high viscosity"? The two industries really need to work together to fix a basic lack of communication on the issue.

To remove any build-up we ran Tub Clean three times with Affresh tablets like LG recommends. I'm sure that probably helped. It's only when I got the brand new Sidekick washing pedestal did I realize the detergent concentration/viscosity/lack of rinsing were the main culprits in pilling. It's a tale of two sweatshirts...

💣 When we had the Sidekick installed by "Geeks" from Best Buy they reversed the hot and cold water hoses. So we had warm/hot-ish water running for both the wash and rinse cycle when it should have washed in warm and rinsed in cold. I did a full load with Persil, using 1 tsp LG advised (absolute max being 2 tsp). Despite the higher temperature which should have dissolved the soap, I was appalled that my cotton clothes were more pilled than ever. The Sidekick is also supposed to be gentler than the FL-- it uses 3-Motion technology as opposed to the 6, and the clothes sit in a few inches of water. One of the items I washed was a black cotton French terry sweatshirt. It's not something I wear often because I tend to wear the hoodie version by the same designer. When I pulled it out it was so visibly deteriorated my eyes nearly popped out of my head. It air-dried stiff as a board. I have attached pictures of both-- same age, fabric, but the hoodie in great condition had only ever been washed in Ms. Meyers on cold. When I had put the Persil on the load I remembered that it was like tar. It's no wonder it failed to wash out. I read one suggestion was to use a 1:3 ratio of detergent to warm water. When I asked LG if we could dilute the detergent in warm water before adding it to the dispenser, to my surprise, this was not recommended. Despite the fact that it's ok for LG users to mix 1 tsp detergent to 2 tsp bleach in the tray. Definitely worth trying nonetheless.

🙈And this is something the product reviewers are missing the boat on completely...Despite all their heavy handed scientific testing especially on stains, both and Consumer Reports DO NOT HAVE A RINSE TEST. A CR author replied to a Facebook commentor who pointed this out at the end of her article saying "Good Point. We're working on developing a rinse test." That was March, and we've had these HE washers since 2010?

In the real world in real time, poor rinsing translates to build-up on clothes and the machine, dinginess, damage to fibers and subsequent pilling. It's also a magnet for dirt. My sweatshirt and tees demonstrated an acceleration of that process. In all likelihood they aren't testing different detergents either, but relying exclusively on an industry standard, "AHAM HLW-2010 Formula III" or something similar.
🔎The question for washer manufacturers is how much they prioritize thorough rinsing in their own labs. I'm sure they are much more concerned with energy standards.

Returning to those water levels...I had never come across the idea that water levels could decrease over time until I read a Consumer Reports review on a Whirlpool. Apparently (at least for that model) the Clean Washer setting resets the water to "factory settings"...EVERY TIME. Attached a screen shot of that. So Whirlpool has deemed this enough of a problem to regularly reset the water. I found a similar reboot for LG online (another screenshot), but there is no mention of it in the manual and the rep could find nothing about that in his search. When I pressed LG about it, they denied that the water levels could change. Of course if the controls get glitchy why rule out that it could affect water levels? Since Best Buy is sending a tech out I'm going to see if he'll check that before resetting the machine.

And lastly, regarding the misshapen collars on crewnecks. It's not a fabrication issue, they are simply being stretched out in the washer. LG said it was partly due to agitation, but recommended using low spin. Another LG rep said it was caused by detergent residue or the sensors being thrown off resulting in excessive agitation. This is another problem which has gotten worse over time besides the pilling. Again, if I was in fact deactivating the default Turbowash setting the first several months which seems to be more aggressive in its agitation, that could explain a lot.

So far I haven't used the Sidekick much but I think with the right detergent it's going to do a pretty good job. When I've had stiff residue caked items from the FL go in the Sidekick to wash the residue (without any added soap) they come out softer. I believe the soaking plays a big part. I can also tell the clothes hold their shape better. I mainly bought it for delicate items anyway.

Overall, I still can't say I love these machines, but LG is still the best of the commercial brands. Maybe with some workarounds it will be doable. As for my experience with Best Buy for the Sidekick, and Sears for the FL, both have been great. If you're shopping around Best Buy will do a price matching with any retailer. Since their Geeks screwed up on the installation, we got a $100 gift card. They had already given us $40 for the Sidekick arriving with a small ding. To sweeten the deal, if their techs have to come out for repairs three times and the issue still isn't resolved, they will replace the appliance at no charge. They also ensure nothing goes into the landfill but is recycled instead.

I hope everyone benefits from this information, regardless of whether you have the problems mentioned. A regular Tub Clean and conservative amounts of detergent could greatly extend the life of your machine and keep your clothes in top condition. Taking a more scientific approach has turned an emotional roller coaster into something far more interesting and rewarding than I ever expected. At least it provides answers to one of the original questions on this thread--why performance varies so much from person to person, even among similar machines.

Sent from my iPhone


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Post# 948435 , Reply# 93   7/16/2017 at 08:29 (367 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Consumer Reports Rinse Test (lack of...)

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If that is indeed the case, then Consumer Reports have proven to be thoroughly incompetent.

The Which? Magazine reported that it tested rinsing by capturing the rinse water and measuring the detergent content of the captured water. Spin efficiency was measured by transferring the load to a commercial spin dryer spinning at 2800rpm and comparing the extracted amounts.

Apart from that, I do not know what to say. You seem to have tried virtually everything. Perhaps the next step is to jettison the LG machine(s), and try another brand.

Post# 948457 , Reply# 94   7/16/2017 at 12:36 (366 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Yes, apparently you can't get the machine work for you in a way that it satisfy you. Perhaps indeed better to try something else.

One thing though. Washing linen sheets in only cold water? On this side of the pond linen sheets were always boil washed. If they can't handle warm water, you'd better sleep not between them too, they might shrink on the bed from the exposure to body temperature. IMHO, sheets need to be at least washed in warm water to remove body fat and odors thoroughly.

Post# 948486 , Reply# 95   7/16/2017 at 18:15 (366 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

I would agree that Consumer Reports and the like are incompetent, they have been steadily losing credibility over the years because of alleged biases...Utterly ridiculous to not test each cycle.

At this point I have too much money tied up in these machines and not enough confidence in any other brand. The absolute last thing available to me is to see if the water levels really have decreased over time and reset the controls, or rig the machine for higher water. I truly don't think my clothes were air drying to a crisp when I first started using it. There is one more tech coming over to check some things that could have gotten damaged during the Sidekick installation so I'll be ready with questions.

It's definitely a common complaint with these machines that they are failing to clean well or rinse soap adequately. And part of the problem is the variation in concentration and viscosity of the soap itself.

The instructions that came with my linen and other sources did say to wash in cold. According to Tricia Rose of even though she uses cold, it is safe to boil wash linen. So I may very well try that for a change. It also gives me confidence that she uses Ms Meyers, and says to never to wash in Tide. She doesn't give a reason for that but I trust her judgement. Interestingly, she appears to have an LG.


Post# 948487 , Reply# 96   7/16/2017 at 18:22 (366 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

It may be fine to boil wash linen sheets but the elastic on the fitted sheet will lose its properties and deteriorate...Washing separately a bit impractical.

Post# 948490 , Reply# 97   7/16/2017 at 19:15 (366 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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One doesn't have to adhere to the cold and boiling extremes of the temperature scale.  There's also warm (which tends to be akin to a summer swimming pool on these HE, dumbed-down washers nowadays) and hot (which is akin to what warm was in the olden days).

I recently bought an expensive 100% cotton mattress pad and set of sheets.  The laundering instructions state wash in cold water.  I refuse to do that.  I have oily skin and hair and my head sometimes sweats during sleep.  I've found that washing sheets and pillow cases at less than a "strong warm" temperature (112°F+) causes discoloration/yellowing/darkening due to unshifted oils and sebum.  I contacted the vendor of the sheets.  Their reply: "For the care instructions, it is recommended to wash them as instructed for the longevity of the sheets and mattress pad. However, you are welcome to wash your sheets to your preference."  I've been washing them to "my preference" and have not observed any ill effects.

Post# 948508 , Reply# 98   7/16/2017 at 21:17 (366 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Yes, I'm well aware of the option to wash in warm for linen even if I didn't expressly state that. I would hope that it's a little more obvious based on the sheer complexity of this topic and as much as I've put into it that I can think outside the box and its simplistic binaries. And again, the new detergents are widely said to work just as well in cold which is why Coyuchi (a natural bedding retailer) for one has changed their care instructions.

The linen is the least of my concerns for now. It tends to repel all manner of ills from stains to body oil on its own. It isn't prone to pilling but it's evident from the lint collection pictures that Turbowash has been causing uneccessary breakdown of the fabric.

For my main concerns, right now my critical eye is turned on the detergents themselves. Most are too harsh and cause the fibers to dry out. This is going to naturally increase the friction that leads to more pilling. Failure to rinse compounds the issue. I think the detergent makers focus too much on stains rather than rinsing ability. I may have found a detergent in the US that could solve a lot of these problems. It's formulated to rinse completely and prevent the fibers from drying out. I just bought it on Amazon, it's called Heritage Park and it has very good reviews.

"Heritage Park Fine Fabric Wash is the ultimate laundry detergent to effectively remove tough stains and gently preserve fine luxury fabrics for years to come. Harsh detergents weaken fabric thread fibers, causing them to look dull. This leads to damaging holes, rips or pilling to develop. This highly concentrated, specialized solution preserves and gently cleans all laundered luxuries while preserving the fine thread fibers, making them look and feel beautiful."


Post# 948517 , Reply# 99   7/16/2017 at 21:56 (366 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

And sorry if I sounded overly defensive but these problems are so much bigger than me. That's one reason I put so much time into this because I'm trying to get the the core of the problem for everybody. I've read the complaints of so many people spending a lot of their precious time doing laundry and troubleshooting instead of living life. Or they're replacing machines that couldn't get the job done when it could have been their detergent all along. It's a combination of factors and there is room for improvement across industries. Just bumping up the water levels could probably help a lot. And reformulating the detergents to be more compatible/effective with low water, not just to reduce suds.

Post# 948524 , Reply# 100   7/17/2017 at 00:09 (366 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Very Interesting Discussion

I'm sorry you've been having problems with your LG's. I wish I could offer you some creative solutions but you seem to have really thought of every variable.

I'm actually the guy (David Lee) that asked Consumer Reports to start testing rinsing performance of washers and have been eagerly awaiting them to post results. Frankly I'm surprised this hasn't been part of normal testing for both washing machines and detergents. These new washers use less and less water and many don't even spin between rinses, how can they expect laundry to be rinsed properly? And detergents seem harder to rinse out, especially Persil.

Post# 948525 , Reply# 101   7/17/2017 at 00:19 (366 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

Got to say my experience is vastly different than yours...  Sheets - hot water -- I have some sheets that are many many years old and the elastic is fine.  Towels hot too- no issues, the rest warm.  My water is hot 150+.  I modified my Duet to use hotter water too.   I never bother reading care labels, if something can't handle my laundry methods and it self destructs I don't need it.   Can't say that has ever happened.


Tide pods or powder are my only detergents, with a bit of oxygen bleach when needed.  I also use a tiny bit of Downey.  All laundry is done in a couple of Duets.  I only dry towels, sheets and such.  Shirts, Jeans and such are hung to dry.


I do not discount your issues, you have given us photographic evidence, I just don't understand why it's happening.  I wonder if it has something to do with your water.  Here I get great Great Lakes water- mine is from Lake Huron.  Does your municipality add too much chlorine to the water?  Other chemicals?


Keep us posted on the ongoing saga, love to know what is causing your issues...

Post# 948531 , Reply# 102   7/17/2017 at 03:50 (366 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

I have had my LG made machine for over 4 years now. I replaced a 1998 or so Maytag set with them. I really can't say I've had any problems with laundering anything. It did take getting used to, since it was a completely different kind of washer and takes at least 3 or 4 times longer than the Maytag did for a load of clothes. But the load is much bigger and I can use the steam treat option to nearly boil greasy or really dirty items, which I frequently do with sheets, towels and whites. I have not had any pilling that I can see now and with a top load washer I did have some pilling of wool socks and such. I think that load separation has much to do with pilling too. I seem to have less wear on my clothes caused by the washer now too. How much wear can you cause by tumbling anyway? I just really haven't had a problem and have been quite happy with this set. Fast as the washer spins, it takes little time in the dryer now. The only thing I sort of wish I had on this machine is a slightly higher water level. I know I could change it to be higher, but it is stacked and I would have to have help removing the dryer long enough to adjust the water level control, so I have left it alone. If I really need a higher level, I just use the Bulky/Bedding setting and after the cycle, spin it on the highest speed to remove as much water as possible.

Post# 948558 , Reply# 103   7/17/2017 at 06:56 (366 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Care Labels on garments

rolls_rapide's profile picture
Those have been dumbed-down too!

Recently, I purchased a few cheap cotton towels. White, I might add.

The labels on those towels says temperature of 40 deg C, with a 'broken bar' underneath the wash-tub symbol, equating to the Woollens programme! There is hardly any agitation on that cycle. No way will I be doing that.

I can remember when Horrockses towels and Marks & Spencer towels had 'washcode 2 (cottons), at 60 deg C'.

My parents's current Christy towels have labels stating wash as Cottons at 40 deg C.

So, no - take modern labelling with a shovelful of salt. I'll continue to wash cotton towels as you would expect to wash cottons - on the Cottons programme which has normal agitation.

And I admit, with a decent powder detergent, it is perfectly possible to wash at 40 deg C and still end up with clean clothing.

Post# 948598 , Reply# 104   7/17/2017 at 11:51 (365 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

I think the main idea here, which is also Mendelson's complaint in her Home Comforts book, is that labels *used* to be the harshest safe cleaning process for the garment, thus t-shirts, towels, jeans etc used to just say "machine wash and dry" or even "machine wash hot, tumble dry hot" and that was it, to now they are covering their asses and saying "machine wash gentle cycle cold, dry flat", which is basically not only wrong, it's just slightly less wrong than the other folks that print "dry clean only" for the same garments.

And I understand me, as a man, belong to a privileged slice of the population: I *know* my measurements, *all* I have to do is buy t-shirts, pants, shirts etc to my measurements, I don't even have to try them on. And there are places that do *not* make clothes properly, they *should* be preshrinking the fabric, then making the garment, they instead buy fabric and make the garment that will then during the first 2-3 washes shrink to fit the measurements.

People who buy garments like dresses, which say "size 6" are out of luck -- to begin with, they may be size 6 on that label, size 4 on the next, size 8 for a third brand, and when they try the garment it fits in the store, if they shrink after washing it will be more than just annoying.

The problem really is, that if the fabric has not been pre-shrunk, you can kiss garment stability goodbye, because it *will* shrink, it may take 6 washings, but no matter what you do, cold wash, dry flat under away from sun etc, it does not matter, natural fabrics shrink it's what they do. The only good way to deal with it properly is to at some point wash it in very hot water and dry on hot too, then it's usually stable.

Post# 948635 , Reply# 105   7/17/2017 at 16:47 (365 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Small world David lol. I was surprised the author personally replied to you, she had to have been a little embarrassed. If a consumer watchdog group that probably employs scientists can't even get it right I question the major players. There's a total disconnect between the washer manufacturers and the detergent makers. Too much margin for error. 1.6 oz for Persil vs 2 tsp? They're just insanely concentrated. CR should be looking into that...And why aren't consumers being told upfront that detergent residue is #1 cause of machine failure? LG makes Tub Clean sound optional when it's absolutely critical to keep the machine functioning properly.

Talking about this with my friend who visited last week, she had noticed lots of suds in her Kenmore when there shouldn't have been. When we went into the subject of pilling, she looks down at her shirt and asks me if it's pilled. It was just as bad as some of mine, and she said she hadn't even worn it that much. I just tried Method 8X concentrated-- two squirts and my clothes still came out crunchy, but not as bad as others. So I feel lucky I found Heritage Park (by a fluke) that's actually formulated to rinse completely...

As for the public water, nothing out of the ordinary. You don't smell chlorine when showering like you might in other places. It does seem softer-- I used to be on well-water which was hard.

I get it about the care label and temperatures. Towels and sheets can handle a lot. But the other fabrics of today are way more delicate than they used to be, at least as far as women's garments go. I buy all of my clothes online from "higher end" places or eBay. Pretty much everything is so thin, it makes normal vintage clothes look and feel like workwear. I've gotten so used to the airy clothing it feels strange to wear something thick. But we have pretty mild weather most of the time so I don't have to wear bulky things. I avoid dry cleaners like the plague...even the best one in town ruined a top. That's why I had no problem getting the Sidekick for the delicates.

If we are able to check the water levels or reset them to factory settings who knows, this could change everything. If Whirlpool's Tub Clean does that automatically, it can't be all that uncommon. A milder detergent could also be a game changer. I'll let you know🙃

Post# 948643 , Reply# 106   7/17/2017 at 17:33 (365 days old) by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Rinsing / poor rinsing

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Have you considered using 'Rosalie's Zero Suds'?


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Post# 948684 , Reply# 107   7/17/2017 at 20:53 (365 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Omg yes

The About Us page says it all...And he's the founder of this site? Jon? 🙋 Haven't tried but it's next.

"In his research, Jon learned from experts in the appliance industry that customers were very unhappy with the current crop of detergents on the market. The complaint was that the detergents were over-sudsing in the new low-water-use machines, not rinsing out clothes properly, and causing electronic boards to burn out. The repairs were frequent and expensive and not covered under warranty, as it was considered “operator error.”

He discovered a well-known industry secret -Suds DO NOT clean clothes! This was true even back in your grandmother’s day. This is especially true since today’s machines struggle to rinse the suds out, and the suds bind up the cleaning agents! Today suds get in the way of cleaning!

Another major problem: in order to avoid too many suds in the new machines, consumers cut back on the amount of detergent they were using. The outcome has been poor cleaning and rinsing, with some machines becoming toxic with residue build-up. As evidence, on the market now are products designed just to clean your washing machine! The Department of Energy mandated low water use, but the detergent industry has had difficulty responding to new washer technology."

Post# 948700 , Reply# 108   7/17/2017 at 22:34 (365 days old) by richimaor (Baja California, Mexico)        

The theory that pilling is caused by dry tumbling inside the washer could be true (among other factors), I have had a Kenmore 417 front load washer for 13 years and I've never had issues with pilling in my clothes; I think part of this is the fact that this machine has an old schooled timer and starts dispensing water in the moment you start the machine by pulling the timer knob so clothes never tumble dry, when washer is started it puts in a default amount of water (which is a considerable amount for a front loader, maybe around a gallon or more), then the washer starts tumbling and sensing the load, and yes, dispenses more water; load gets really wet and you still have a considerable amount of water inside the drum, it makes a spray rinse between main wash and first rinse; this washer makes 3 rinses in permanent press and 4 in regular cycle (without extra rinse option) so clothes rinse up pretty well even is you use a little bit more detergent than you should. This machines are known for bad bearings and early spider issues but I've never had any of this problems in almost 14 years of work. So back to the point... I really support the theory of less water leads to more pilling in clothes.

Post# 948701 , Reply# 109   7/17/2017 at 22:41 (365 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        

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The About Us page says it all...And he's the founder of this site? Jon?


I have not been around here since the start of the site, but my understanding is that the person who started this website was Robert/Unimatic1140. He is the webmaster, and the person who does the coding now, at least.


But there were apparently very early members here, and there was some history before this site on (IIRC) some Yahoo group. Either of which might easily include the Jon behind Rosalie's.

Post# 948702 , Reply# 110   7/17/2017 at 22:47 (365 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Turning a blind eye.

I didn't mention it before but it's definately crossed my mind...It says right there that the industry KNOWS that suds do not clean clothes. Sure, it's partly cultural, Americans associate clean with suds. We're used to seeing ads with bubbles because it takes an abstract concept and makes it tangible. And you know the eggheads over at LG and the like must know that the detergent isn't rinsing adequately so it clogs up the machines etc. Is there some kind of complicity going on, or at least a lazy form of planned obsolescence? Why didn't CR have a rinse test after all these years? And it took someone on Facebook to point this out? Can't help but wonder if they know too.

Post# 948707 , Reply# 111   7/17/2017 at 23:36 (365 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        

lordkenmore's profile picture

Sure, it's partly cultural, Americans associate clean with suds.




I've heard that at least some early versions of laundry detergents (including IIRC Tide) were low sudsing. But they didn't sell well because people expected to see suds. So...there was reformulation just to add suds.


Indeed, I remember hearing someone in my family--who had a science background--even talk about suds being unnecessary except for marketing.


What I can't understand now is why modern detergents continue to be so sudsy. OK, maybe there is a vision of providing a top load detergent for Grandma, who using the top load washer she bought in 1957... But front load washers have long since moved from novelty to routine appliance...and yet the detergents often seem to act like: it's still 1950, and we need to convince people detergent is good as soap!






Post# 948710 , Reply# 112   7/17/2017 at 23:57 (365 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Sooo for Americans to switch to no suds it's going to involve a total re-education about how sudsing detergents actually work in HE machines...but sounds like they never worked that great anyway! It's like if you watch Shark Tank, they will pass on investing in a product just because the learning curve is too steep for the average consumer. Just shows you how advertising has deeply brainwashed us for generations in America. I'm going to look up old print ads now.

But maybe it's also just because...bubbles are fun! Who doesn't love bubbles! 🍺

Post# 948712 , Reply# 113   7/18/2017 at 00:04 (365 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Tiny diamonds

This ad is funny.

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Post# 948726 , Reply# 114   7/18/2017 at 03:48 (365 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
A layer of suds in a frontloader is actually really bad. It cushions the wash action, so the cleaning effect is less. At the same time it's a sign one is using too much detergent, which may lead to more wear on the clothes.

Post# 948787 , Reply# 115   7/18/2017 at 13:52 (364 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        
Dirty detergents

Yeah you guys know that but 99.9% of HE users here have no clue. We expect to see some at different points of the cycle since they're "low sudsing." With some detergents you don't have to overdo it or come even close to see the suds, and that's on the makers themselves.

I used Method 8X just for one load (back to Amazon it goes) and I am astonished at how different the experience is AFTER the wash. My clothes are suddenly a magnet for odors and soil. I dropped a tiny bit of food on some pants, as I sometimes do, and the next day I was wearing the pants and actually smelled the food odor (which I had cleaned up). It reeeked. I put on another pair and it smelled like the scented body lotion that I use everyday. I've never, ever had my clothes pick up fragrance like that. Since the makers aren't required to list ingredients, I believe it must be due to silicones or something. Whatever it was, when I did the viscosity test on my hands it too left a slick (so did Persil, Arm and Hammer, but not Tide Free or Ms Meyers). This slick is considered normal, but I think it's causing laundry to get even dirtier and smellier than it would otherwise.

Post# 948792 , Reply# 116   7/18/2017 at 13:59 (364 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        

lordkenmore's profile picture

I tried Method within the last 5 years or so. Target had small sample bottles (5 loads or whatever). I can't recall any complaints with clothes, but I did have issue with some sort of weird, slick feeling buildup on the washer tub. I can't say it was Method's fault...but the timing does suggest that Method was at least a cause. The problem went away with using other detergents.

Post# 948796 , Reply# 117   7/18/2017 at 14:25 (364 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Very interesting results just with a sample!

I know this isn't the first time this happened, it was many years ago but I distinctly remember having this same problem with another brand. I'm going to redo this load. Water bill is probably going to be crazy this month 😣

Post# 948816 , Reply# 118   7/18/2017 at 16:06 (364 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        
I'm going to redo this load.

lordkenmore's profile picture

Ah, the "fun" of rewashing!


I've had to do that. The most memorable time was with some Tide sample (about 10 years ago) that left an incredibly strong scent on the laundry. It was so oppressive that I ended up rewashing a good chunk of the load for no other reason than getting rid of the Tide smell.

Post# 948821 , Reply# 119   7/18/2017 at 16:25 (364 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

That too, Method's synthesized version of ozone-- "Fresh Air"--gives me a headache. Ironically I don't mind it as much as the stench of anything the clothes come in contact with, like food. At least the headache goes away after a while.

Post# 948826 , Reply# 120   7/18/2017 at 17:06 (364 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Glad you mentioned it, just checked the tub and sure enough it's covered in a white residue that was definately not there before. It came off on my fingers so running Tub Clean w Affresh.

Post# 948841 , Reply# 121   7/18/2017 at 18:48 (364 days old) by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        

speedqueen's profile picture
John Behind Rosalie's is username "jetcone" around here.

Post# 948845 , Reply# 122   7/18/2017 at 19:34 (364 days old) by Dreamclean (Portland)        

Might come in handy one day.

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