Thread Number: 72263  /  Tag: Vintage Dishwashers
KDS-21 Parts and advice needed
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Post# 955323   8/30/2017 at 15:43 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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I have a customer that needs some parts. They need a wash arm mount/filter screen (just the screen really).

The dishwasher is taking in water but the metal filter is so built up with years and years of debris that the pump isn't pumping water. He came in with the complaint that the dishwasher isn't spraying the soap out of the detergent cups.

I dumped a gallon of vinegar and some hot water in the unit to let it sit over night just to see if any change happened. It grumbled and groaned but it took more water out than last time.

I took the wash arm off to see if the support was solid and discovered the torn mesh filter.

I am thinking I would probably dump some CLR in it and let that sit. Everything is so built up that I can't get the filters off to scrub them.

Also, if I can get it going for him, I am going to have the service department replace the drain hose and the water line.

The customer said that he didn't realize the dishwasher needed to be cleaned out from time to time and it has been in constant use since when the house was built many years ago.

Anyways, if anyone could help him out, I would appreciate it. The kitchen is laid out in such a way that the dishwasher door just barely clears the fridge when it is opened. I know the door on a tall tub would hit the fridge.

Also, this is different than my KDS18/58's that I have, how do you take the metal filter off? Just pull straight up with the bakelite on top or? I am so afraid of breaking something because of the build-up.


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Post# 955359 , Reply# 1   8/30/2017 at 21:27 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Cleaning A KD -21 DW Filter

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Hi there is only one filter that needs occasional cleaning on this DW, after you lift the WA off you just grab the top edge of it and pull upward to remove it.

 

Replacing the fill and drain lines will do nothing to help this DW work better, it probably could use a new inlet valve and a new drain check valve, and in the future it would help if the user used better detergent, maybe softer water, and differently stopped rinsing the dishes before loading.

 

John L.


Post# 955382 , Reply# 2   8/31/2017 at 02:44 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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Is it safe to run with that top filter in the condition it is in?

The water line is an old copper line that has a slight kink in it. I have noticed around here copper lines tend to have a lot of buildup the older they are.

I will go back over probably tomorrow and pull the stainless filter out and clean it for him.

Thank you for the reply.
I'll take some boil out with me.


Post# 955433 , Reply# 3   8/31/2017 at 10:23 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
You can run the DW with the torn fine mesh filter

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I would not worry about the copper water line, if this lightly used line is clogged with minerals the entire house would need re-piping. If you have any dough about the flow rate of this water line disconnect the inlet valve under the DW and briefly turn on the water [ be prepared for flood ]

Post# 956818 , Reply# 4   9/9/2017 at 18:58 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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I had the techs bring the dishwasher in this week and had some free time today to clean it.

Here is my current issue... I dont think this is right. It almost seems like it is loosing power after the startup winding kicks out.






Post# 956823 , Reply# 5   9/9/2017 at 19:28 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Doesn't seen enough spray pressure.  Lower arm should be stronger at the ends, through the silverware basket.  Upper also not getting enough pressure to rotate and/or is dragging.


Post# 956825 , Reply# 6   9/9/2017 at 19:53 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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But look at how the pressure is at first. It's like the motor slows down.

Post# 956887 , Reply# 7   9/10/2017 at 07:59 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Motor Is Not Slowing Down

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The DW may not have enough water in it [ try the same test with an additional gallon of water added ] If this works REPLACE the inlet valve or if can find them replace the rubber diaphragm in the valve.

 

You may have a bad drain line check valve [ check for a sucking at the end of the drain hose while DW is washing, if you hear or detect one the rubber in the CV is bad ] replace rubber with GE part.

 

John L.


Post# 956921 , Reply# 8   9/10/2017 at 11:07 by stevet (palm coast florida)        
Worn parts!

If you are getting a full charge of water or adding the extra water as John L. Suggests, then I would say that the wash impeller has either worn down or has maybe a broken vane on it causing the lack of pressure. You would need to remove the top half of the pump which is the wash arm support which used to have the screen on it to see the wash impeller, Also, on these machines, the wash impeller was driven by the drain impeller which was opposite to the desgn from the 15 thru 20 series. The 21 and 22 had the drain impeller "keyed" to the motor shaft because it served as the grinder for the food disposer. The wash impeller locked into a slot on the drain impeller thus driving it. The tabs of the slot on either of them could have broken, but more often, the wash impeller was the culprit. Check it out and see what you find.

I was going to also suggest that you check to make sure that the brass ring and which nylon bushing are still intact on the wash arm support. After many years of use and crappy detergent, the plactic would wear out and you would lose water pressure out of the bottom of the arm and never see it. That would affect the top and bottom arm pressure.

I have both of the parts you would need if you want to replace the fine mesh filter as well as the stainless steel filter. Just let me know.

Hope this helps.


Post# 963734 , Reply# 9   10/21/2017 at 20:54 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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So my customer decided to go with a stainless Miele classic. He said his kids told him up upgrade.

I have been holding on to this thing cause i don't wanna see it get tossed.

I put it on the lift to lay it on its back. Here are pics of what I'm seeing.

Any thoughts?


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Post# 963738 , Reply# 10   10/21/2017 at 21:19 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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Oh and the check valve was plugged by the flap, so thank you for that. The tech here said naw. Lol.

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Post# 963749 , Reply# 11   10/21/2017 at 22:38 by stevet (palm coast florida)        
Check valve flap..

As it is supposed to be in there to prevent dirty water from backing up into the machine as well as to prevent air from being sucked into the machine during the wash cycles. This is why John L suggested you listen for suctioning sounds when it was in a wash phase.If it sucks air in, then the wash pressure will go down as you are experiencing. The two parts of the check valve unscrew so you can clean it if necessary. Otherwise, purchase the GE equivalent valve and install it. Someone here can provide the part number to order.
It also looks like there is a leak under the machine and are you indicating that the upper wash manifold adapter is cracked or leaking? That is not so unusual and you would need to replace that rubber part. I have some used ones, but that IS a part you can still buy new from Hobart. The part number is 00-116003 and the list price is 16.07. They are showing a spacer washer that goes under the lip of it which will help it make a tighter seal but I have never used one but it might be good to have. Part number 00-812917 list price is 1.05
That will cure that leak. See if you can determine more of what might be happening and we will get it back to tip top shape.


Post# 963813 , Reply# 12   10/22/2017 at 02:45 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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Ok, I played with the drain hose, when I stopped the hose with my hand the spray took off like crazy. So I tore apart a GE check valve I had on the shelf and put the flapper in there. I ordered a replacement flapper.

When I was playing with the hose, letting pressure in stopping pressure etc, it must have broke something loose because all of a sudden it started draining the entire sump like it was supposed to.

Now I am trying to get all of the hard water build up out... I scrubbed the sump and most of the tub with barkeepers friend... rinsed the machine about 8 times to finally get all of that out, now I am running a pots/pan soak/scrub cycle with Miele's dishwasher conditioner tub in there.

It is odd there is only one rinse on the wash cycles.. I mean I guess one would have two rinses if they didn't use the second rinse cup? Eh, lol IDK.

Anyways, I appreciate all of the help so far.


Post# 963829 , Reply# 13   10/22/2017 at 08:02 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Only One Rinse On KD21s - KD23s

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Hobart-Kitchenaid was trying to compete with the lower overall water use of Asko, Bosch and Miele and other European DWs so this was a way to do it.

 

WP & WP built KM DWs did not do this except on a few models and only then on Eco cycles.

 

John L.


Post# 963932 , Reply# 14   10/22/2017 at 21:06 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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I've got a slight leak on the drain connection from the sump and from the middle wash arm feed outlet on the sump.

I wish there was a video on taking the pump housing apart, its amazing what youtube has brought for people wanting to do DIY repairs. I'm just hesitant because I don't have replacement gaskets.

I had ordered a new detergent dispenser assembly and two bi-metals for my KDS58 that I have. I went to put that together since I was in such a nostalgic mood and I can't find my screws. Was going to steal the screws from my KDP58 that I have and found out those are all rusted out. I am going go to Menards tomorrow after work and see if I can find some stainless screws that are similar in thread and size.


Post# 963950 , Reply# 15   10/22/2017 at 22:39 by stevet (palm coast florida)        
Gaskets are not really needed

To repair the leak. The whole pump comes out from inside the machine once you release the 3 retaining clamps. There is that large black gasket that you see at the bottom of the sump that seals the pump in place. That's the only gasket and it is more than likely, reusable.

To remove the pump, disconnect the hose to the upper feed manifold and remove the hose from the pump to the check valve. Disconnect the harness to the motor and any other wires that go from the motor to the chassis which should only be a grind wire.

Since the machine is out of the cabinet, take a small block of wood or a 2x4, place it under the motor and then push down on the top of the machine and work it until the motor comes loose. Then lift it out of the sump while working to clear the uper manifold tube and wiring thru the opening, Then you can work on the pump.

Reinstalling the pump is obviously to just reverse everything. Put some dishwashing liquid like Dawn on the gasket and clean the sump and it should slide right back in and the clamps will pull it snug.

Another thing you may get away with to stop the leak, short of buying a new hose is to go to Ace Hardware and get a thin stainless steel washer of the same diameter as the hose that you will see in the pump body after removing the wash arm support and the impeller.Put the washer over the hose so that it gets pressed down when you replace the wash arm support and it should help seal the leak. It has to be a thin washer and usually you won't need more than the thickness of a quarter so maybe buy 2 or 3 really thin ones and see what happens.
One word of caution.. do not over tighten the screws that secure the lower half of the wash pump as the screws can strip out easily. This has worked for me but probably the best solution would be to buy the parts I mentioned in a previous post..


Post# 964003 , Reply# 16   10/23/2017 at 10:12 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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When I came in this morning to take the DW off the bench for the week there was water every where. The bottom of the motor had water sitting in the cover and the work surface had enough standing water that it saturated a heavy dish towel. I am not sure what seeped where, but when I left, I had turned off all of the water and disconnected the power. No one was here until I got here this morning. The motor and work surface were both dry except for the two small leaks I mentioned earlier. After the last cycle I ran, I looked in the sump and it looked like it had drained properly. The drain hose was full like you would think it would be so it didn't come back through the check valve.

So when I take the pump out, I'll have to check everything.


Post# 964007 , Reply# 17   10/23/2017 at 10:58 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        

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Was there water in the machine when you found it?

There is a lot of evidence of a water leak when you look at the corrosion on the motor, you may have a leaking main seal.


Post# 964009 , Reply# 18   10/23/2017 at 11:18 by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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I ran 2 rinse/hold cycles and then a cancel cycle when I was rinsing the tub cleaner stuff out of the unit. When I checked everything before I left I looked in and saw that the water had drained out and it didn't look like water was sitting in the sump.

I turned the water valve off on the wall, unplugged the dw and propped the door open with a towel. I checked underneath to make sure it was dry, there was nothing there.

I shut off the lights and left, that was at 4 am Sunday morning. I came back at 8 this morning to that.

As far as what was in the house, the tech didn't say if there was a bunch of water on the floor, but I had been over there earlier trying to run a bunch of vinegar and hot water through it. If the sub floor had been wet, He would have told me. So I don't imagine that it was leaking when it was in the house.

I did attempt to take the fine mesh filter out before I put the new drain flapper in. I took the 4 screws around the wash arm support off, the 8 or so on the outer edge of the fine mesh filter and the four just below the filter assembly where the knockouts were. I couldn't get anything to budge, I tried to see if I could shift anything with a flat blade screwdriver, nothing budged but I didn't put a lot of pressure on anything so I put all the screws back in. That was around midnight. So the dishwasher had been running for at least 4 hours without anything more than a slight drip every so often.





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