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Thread Number: 76399
/ Tag: Other Home Products or Autos
Another Doorbell Question |
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Post# 1002438 8/3/2018 at 15:46 (2,098 days old) by RP2813  (Sannazay) |
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 A while back I posted about an antique ringer I wanted to install to replace a modern "Avon calling" doorbell in our new house.
I've run into an issue I don't know how to resolve. I've found a transformer with the correct voltage for proper ringer operation, but have deduced that there's already a transformer somewhere between the existing doorbell and the switch by the front door that doesn't provide compatible voltage for the ringer.
Is there a standard location for transformers? The attic access opening is so small that I can't fit through it, but maybe a smaller person could. Is the attic the likely place to find this thing, or could it possibly be in the wall behind the existing doorbell (I was going to mount the ringer on the existing doorbell's wooden cover so I didn't detach the assembly from the wall)? I know for sure that something older had to be used here originally, so am wondering if the original transformer has been bypassed or replaced, or if the new doorbell happened to work off the same voltage.
Any suggestions for resolution are appreciated.
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Post# 1002441 , Reply# 1 8/3/2018 at 16:14 (2,098 days old) by ea56 (Cotati, Calif.) |
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Ralph if there is a hall closet or coat closet located near the front door sometimes I’ve seen the doorbell transformer located inside the closet over the door. Thats all I can think of, but you may hit paydirt looking for it there.
If fact, ours is located in the closet that is under our staircase, on the wall, the doorbell is located on the other side of the wall. HTH Eddie This post was last edited 08/03/2018 at 17:15 | ||
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Post# 1002446 , Reply# 2 8/3/2018 at 16:52 (2,098 days old) by CircleW (NE Cincinnati OH area) |
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Ralph, my house originally had the transformer in the attic right above the doorbell in the entry below. I later moved it to the basement. Many times they may be found near a circuit breaker or fuse panel. | ||
| Post# 1002455 , Reply# 3 8/3/2018 at 19:57 (2,097 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA) | ||
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Post# 1002481 , Reply# 4 8/4/2018 at 05:53 (2,097 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O ) |
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Post# 1002527 , Reply# 5 8/4/2018 at 13:21 (2,097 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay) |
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Post# 1002530 , Reply# 6 8/4/2018 at 13:57 (2,097 days old) by ea56 (Cotati, Calif.) |
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Ralph,I’m pretty sure that the transformer for your doorbell is going tobe located somewhere very close to where the doorbell is on the wall of you house. If the opening for your attic is some distance away for the doorbell, and you can’t fit into the attic, you may have to bite the bullet and have a handyman or electrician take care of this for you. I’d try a handyman first, will be less costly.
Eddie | ||
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Post# 1002532 , Reply# 7 8/4/2018 at 14:06 (2,097 days old) by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia) |
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Hey Ralph Have someone stand at the door with their finger on the bell and start switching off circuit breakers. When the bell stops you should hopefully find out which part of the house is interrupted and should narrow down the search area. (This assumes the wiring isn’t a rats nest) Just another suggestion Cheers Nathan | ||
| Post# 1002543 , Reply# 8 8/4/2018 at 15:03 (2,097 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
I do have a doorbell transformer beside my circuit breaker panel but I also have one in my attic which is mounted to the attic light's junction box. I don't know what this one is used for but I know that my doorbells are on 24 volts and that burns out the lights in the door bell buttons quickly.
That reminds me that I should check this transformer to see if it works as one of my doorbells at the back doesn't work. The other two are linked to the one in the basement. | ||
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Post# 1002546 , Reply# 9 8/4/2018 at 15:19 (2,097 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay) |
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The Goldilocks power level seems to be 8 volts for the ringer. 12 is too much, 5 not enough (going off of miscellaneous power converters I had laying around). I don't know what the voltage is on the current bell, and I can't find replacement batteries for my Radio Shack multi-meter.
I have a feeling Eddie is correct and that the transformer is behind the existing doorbell. It's in the kitchen, which strikes me as a typical 1920's location for an old ringer. I'll have to pull the whole thing off the wall and see if there's anything back there.
Flipping breakers is a good suggestion, but I don't know how far I'm willing to go in pursuit of a retro ringer either. | ||
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Post# 1003196 , Reply# 10 8/10/2018 at 12:24 (2,091 days old) by dermacie (my forever home (Glenshaw, PA)) |
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Post# 1003197 , Reply# 11 8/10/2018 at 12:48 (2,091 days old) by countryford (Austin, MN) |
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Post# 1003250 , Reply# 12 8/11/2018 at 00:36 (2,090 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay) |
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Thanks Justin! There are some blank covers in the basement (where the water heater used to be) and other parts of the house, so I'll check them out.
The house was built in 1922, but all wiring was recently updated and I think the new clunky doorbell was part of the kitchen remodel. It's possible that a new transformer was installed for the new doorbell, so it might be behind a blank plate. If I can find it, that would be really easy to swap out. | ||
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Post# 1021861 , Reply# 13 1/20/2019 at 16:11 (1,927 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay) |
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EUREKA! Yesterday I decided to poke inside an outdoor cabinet where I think the main electrical panel was originally located. Lo and behold, there was a large junction box with a transformer on top, and that transformer was connected to a pair of 1922-looking wires via wire nuts (see pictures).
I undid one of the wire nuts, separated the two wires, then tried the existing (working) doorbell. No response. This confirmed that I found the associated transformer. Yay!
So then I got the ringer I've been wanting to install and the 8v transformer that it likes. I removed the existing transformer and wired everything up again with the 8v one. No ringer action. In case of a fluke, I took off the doorbell switch out front and touched its wires together. This produced tiny sparks but no ringer response.
Now I'm wondering if distance has something to do with voltage loss. I would say there's at least 30' of wire between the transformer and the ringer. I connected the ringer at the junction box and it worked. Could distance be the trouble, and if so, is there a formula to figure out how much I may need to up the transformer voltage?
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Post# 1021887 , Reply# 14 1/20/2019 at 19:32 (1,927 days old) by abcomatic (Bradford, Illinois) |
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My house was built in 1897. The doorbell is so cool. All you have to do is to turn the bell, which is inside on the door woodwork, to the right or clockwise and that winds the bell. You push the button outside and it unwinds the bell inside, which makes it ring. No electricity or transformers and it is loud too. Have fun with this. Gary | ||
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Post# 1021907 , Reply# 16 1/21/2019 at 01:28 (1,927 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Glad you found it, Ralph.
I was going to suggest you look at a breaker panel. The 24 volt transformer for my doorbell(s) is in a small transformer that is resting on top of the main breaker panel in the front hall entry closet. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of electrical code when it comes to these things. Or, at least, observed electrical code. In case you haven't already tried it, I suggest connecting the new bell directly to the transformer you want to use with it. 8 volts seems like a very odd value. And, check whether the bell wants AC or DC, and that the transformer matches. Most bell transformers seem to be AC input and output. | ||
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Post# 1021908 , Reply# 17 1/21/2019 at 01:57 (1,927 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay) |
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Bud, thanks. I'm guestimating at 30' because I can't see where or how the ringer wire is routed. It could easily be much less, but I think 10v is what I should shoot for. I'll dig around for one.
Rich, I already tested the ringer with various transformers and got no ringer action with anything other than 8v. I can't remember at the moment if it's AC or DC.
Gary, the 1905 house next door to us when I was a kid had a similar in-door ringer. As I recall it had to be cranked from the outside by the visitor. I've not heard of they mechanism you described. It must have been a deluxe version.
Here's a link to the first thread about this ringer: CLICK HERE TO GO TO RP2813's LINK | ||
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Post# 1021937 , Reply# 19 1/21/2019 at 11:24 (1,927 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa) |
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 >> ---------- >> The Goldilocks power level seems to be 8 volts for the ringer. 12 is too much, 5 not enough (going off of miscellaneous power converters I had laying around). >> ---------- >> ---------- >> Rich, I already tested the ringer with various transformers and got no ringer action with anything other than 8v. >> ---------- Based on these two statements, I think you are focused on 8V being a necessity, when the problem is likely elsewhere. These buzzer-based ringers should operate on a fairly wide range of voltages, it will just be a more vigorous ringing if the voltage is higher. The fact that it didn't ring at 12V likely means that your 12V supply wasn't providing an adequate current, NOT that the ringer can't tolerate or isn't happy with 12V. When wiring a circuit like this, you don't want to cut it too close to the minimum voltage that will operate the ringer, as that leaves you very little breathing room for oxidized contacts in the switch, old connections, etc. You may find that your ringer works fine for you when you test it, but visitors mention that the bell doesn't work, just because of the firm way in which you pushed the button. A little extra voltage will ensure reliable ringing in these less-than-optimal conditions. | ||
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Post# 1021947 , Reply# 20 1/21/2019 at 12:45 (1,927 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay) |
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Bud, thanks for that link. It's worth the $7 & change to order that transformer and see if it resolves the issue. I've got a watch on it for now.
Thanks Dave. That's something to consider. I wouldn't mind if the ringing was a little more vigorous/louder than it is currently.
I'll take another look at the other transformers I tested the ringer with and see if maybe they were DC. What I do know is that when I tried to install the ringer using the existing transformer (because I didn't know where it was located yet), I got nothing. I assume that transformer is 22 - 24v. I can't find any markings on it that indicate its output.
Wouldn't you know it -- the next door neighbor came to the door a little while ago and had to knock a few times because the ringer isn't working . . . | ||
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Post# 1021995 , Reply# 22 1/22/2019 at 00:07 (1,926 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc) |
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DC doorbells were usually powered by dry cell batteries.Would have been an OLD system that was used before AC power.Remember those large vertical 1.5V dry cell batteries with the clip terminals on the top?Those were used for old doorbells. | ||
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Post# 1022002 , Reply# 23 1/22/2019 at 01:55 (1,926 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay) |
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I checked the existing transformer for the plunger chime. It's a DH910 and has options for three voltages:
Output 10VA at 8 Volt and 16 Volts; 20VA at 24 Volt.
I decided to try it with the 8 Volt/10 VA wire configuration and the clapper didn't budge. We were expecting visitors today so I wired the transformer to operate the chime again and that's how things currently stand. 16v doesn't work, as that's what the chime operates on, and the first time I tried to hook up the ringer, I was using the existing transformer as wired for the chime.
This ringer seems to be very finicky about voltage. Here's a shot of its coil:
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Post# 1022034 , Reply# 25 1/22/2019 at 12:07 (1,926 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay) |
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Cool -- more good information, Bud! I'm glad I posted the coil picture. I'm going to guess that it's unwise to try and configure the wires on the transformer for 8-Volt/20VA (if that's even possible). I'll do more research on the DH910 to see if its output is AC or DC.
If possible, can you explain what the "VA" means, and what I should look for in transformer specs?
I guess I can take the 10-volt ebay transformer off of my watch list since its output is AC. | ||
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Post# 1022057 , Reply# 27 1/22/2019 at 14:35 (1,926 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay) |
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OK, I'll see what I can find with those specs.
My 30' calculation is a rough estimate, since it appears to me that the routing from the electrical box to the doorbell switch may be 15' and from the switch to the bell another 15'.
The wire appears to be perhaps twice the gauge of bell wire, but I'm not sure of its exact size. | ||
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Post# 1022123 , Reply# 28 1/22/2019 at 23:59 (1,925 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Ralph,
VA means volt-amps. It's a simple equation: volts times amps. It is used instead of watts to indicate the power in a circuit, as it takes into account losses due to inductance. What you really need is a shop or lab with a variable DC transformer so the ideal voltage/amperage for this ringer can be determined. There ought to be some electronics shops in your area that could do this for you. It's also possible the ringer itself is compromised in some way. Weak spring comes to mind. I don't know. Personally I'd go to HD or Ace or Lowe's and pick up a high quality doorbell system and be done with it. But then you'd lose the vintage aspect. C'est la vie... | ||
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