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Thread Number: 12371
Talk Me Into Or Out Of A Front Loader |
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| Post# 217188 , Reply# 1 6/20/2007 at 16:45 (6,154 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
That's a nice machine
When we talk about front-loaders cleaning better than a top-loader, it depends on what top-loader we're talking about. If we are, for instance, referring to a machine a few years old or older, then you will likely see comparable performance between the two. The front-loader will extract more water, but cleanliness should be equivalent. If we're talking about top-loaders produced over the last year or two that feature lower water levels and "dumbed-down" temperatures to try and squeak by energy-consumption requirements, then yes, the front-loader will likely perform better and provide cleaner clothes. The front-loader doesn't have to fib water temps to skate by. Either way, I've heard pretty good things about the 2140 and Frigidaire front-loaders in general. | ||
Post# 217266 , Reply# 5 6/21/2007 at 03:18 (6,154 days old) by launderess  (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Yes, the wash water is a more concentrated (or should be) solution of detergents and whatever in front loaders, but there shouldn't be any suds. You want the concentrated wash to do the cleaning and more importantly keep the removed muck off your laundry to be rinsed away. Using a small volume of water this is important as unlike top loaders one cannot depend upon laundry swimming in a large amount of water to do the job. If the was solution is not concentrated for front loaders, you'll end up with dingy, dirty, tattle-tale grey laundry. Rinsing is another matter, there one needs lots of water as it is a process of dilution. Sudsing is NOT an indication of cleaning power when using laundry detergents. Soap yes, but not detergent. L. | ||
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Post# 217278 , Reply# 7 6/21/2007 at 05:47 (6,154 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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rinsing more effective: ~provided that as much water as possible is extracted from the clothes at the end of each rinse cycle. It is my oponion as well that spins between rinses does the most good. Which manny does not do this? I thought someone mentioned Miele does NOT like to spin too much between rinses in that "It forces the residues back INTO the clothing." | ||
| Post# 217328 , Reply# 10 6/21/2007 at 12:32 (6,153 days old) by peterh770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
Well, I don't think we could talk you into a front loader. The door opening is rather small, and I don't think the capacity could hold a full sized adult. Even with sticks and clubs, we probably couldn't get you all the way in. Maybe you are double jointed? And if you are already in, well it's up to you to get out. Maybe after a few weeks of not eating, getting out would be easier.
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| Post# 217340 , Reply# 12 6/21/2007 at 13:50 (6,153 days old) by roto204 (Tucson, AZ) | ||
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Peter | ||
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Post# 217341 , Reply# 13 6/21/2007 at 13:59 (6,153 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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FL versus TL
I think the biggest difference between the two systems is that FLs have been developed continuously. TLs (I mean the basic agitator in the middle) really hit their peak with the first GE and Unimatics and it has been downhill ever since. Nothing, absolutely nothing new or useful has been added to them since the first thumpers began making their beautiful sound. FLs on the other hand, have continued to evolve and, driven by intense competition, improve. In the end, you should either go with a vintage TL or a Fl. If it were vintage, that would be cool, too - although I would hesitate to recommend the Westinghouses from the 1970s... | ||
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Post# 217342 , Reply# 14 6/21/2007 at 14:03 (6,153 days old) by gadgetgary (Bristol,CT) |
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BTJustice | ||
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Post# 217478 , Reply# 16 6/22/2007 at 05:11 (6,153 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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de nada
Do remember, please - FLs in general and Electrolux/Kenmore/Frigidaire/some GEs in particular are allergic to chlorine bleach (never mind the bleach dispenser, that was put in my marketing idiots who don't give a flying, er foot, about customers) and must be run with HE detergents. That sudsing is a bad bad thing - it attacks the bearings and contributes nothing to cleaning. It is a holdover from the old soap days and is an added "feature" of the detergent makers to make you "think" it is doing something. Sorry if this sounds like a lecture - just want you to have all the pleasure of a FL without any of the hassle; chlorine bleach and high suds are the cause of allmost all failures in this unit. (Europeans use oxygen bleach instead of chlorine) | ||
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Post# 217585 , Reply# 19 6/22/2007 at 16:02 (6,152 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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myths and reality
Obviously, any time water is churning, there is going to be some amount of "suds". I don't recall anyone every saying that there are no suds; what is true is that the normal level of sudsing which US detergents designed for TLs produce is very much too high for FLs. Compared to standard US products, HE detergents produce nearly no suds. Thus my statement that sudsing is a bad bad thing. No doubt, if one were looking for something to find fault with, one could critize my remarks as being generalizations. I write in the knowledge that the other people in this forum know considerably more than I do and thus it is not necessary to categorically exclude every possible misinterpretation. Modern detergents, regardless of their country of origin, do not need to produce suds in order to clean. It has been frequently mentioned here in the fora that the housewives of the early syndet era "missed" sudsing and so it was "added" back in. MRX' advice is well worth following. Of course, one thing for US users to note: we tend to wash in hotter water here in Europe than you do, so it would be a good idea to run a really hot load every so often to kill or reduce any mold and "gunk" buildup. It is also necessary to leave the door slightly ajar or you will have mold. And, yes, there is a big note "Vorsicht! Katze!" on both the dryer and the washer... | ||
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Post# 217611 , Reply# 20 6/22/2007 at 17:00 (6,152 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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HE detergents CAN generate some appreciable sudsing, but it's a lightweight foam that dissipates quickly when the water action stops. I've had that happen with Tide HE in my Calypso. HE can also be overdosed. I ran a single new shirt in my F&P (to freshen it for wearing the next night), purposely used Arm & Hammer Essentials which is a "green" plant-based soap formulation, not touted as HE but sudsed very little the other times I've used it. I used about 1/4 of the measuring cap, which clearly was too much as I found a 4-inch layer of suds after the first drain leading into the first deep rinse.
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| Post# 217664 , Reply# 23 6/22/2007 at 20:48 (6,152 days old) by btjustice () | ||
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Thanks for the reply. Yes please send it to my e-mail address listed in the member's section. Thanks! | ||
| Post# 217673 , Reply# 24 6/22/2007 at 21:57 (6,152 days old) by btjustice () | ||
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I measured out 1/4 of a cup of detergent and poured it back into the Tide HE cap. It comes to Line 2 on the cap. I assume I am using 1/8 of a cup of HE detergent since I fill it to Line 1. | ||
| Post# 217695 , Reply# 26 6/23/2007 at 00:04 (6,152 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California) | ||
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detergent I never fill the cup up to the "1" mark. Usually no more than 1/2 to 2/3 of the way up to the "1" mark. Next load fill it to 1/2 way up to "1" and see what happens. You should have clean clothes and little to no suds. | ||
| Post# 217833 , Reply# 27 6/23/2007 at 20:04 (6,151 days old) by cny4 (Central New York) | ||
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Line number one is the max I use for very dirty large loads. Usually I fillit to 1/2 to 3/4 to line 1. What does bleach do to FL's? I only use it for whites, but I will stop using it if it is hurting my machine. | ||
| Post# 217851 , Reply# 28 6/23/2007 at 21:23 (6,151 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California) | ||
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Evidently it eats up the aluminum "spider", that is what people here have posted. I just use a Hot Water wash (machine empty, no soap) once a month. About every four months I add some Lime Away (half bottle) and run it on hot (always allow the machine to fill, stop it momentarily and then add the Lime Away). Keeps calcium buildups to a minimum. | ||
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Post# 217866 , Reply# 29 6/23/2007 at 22:30 (6,151 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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European washing machines are designed/buit with componets that cannot in theory witstand repeated use of high LCB. According to Miele, it is not just the stainless steel, but some plastic parts as well. Bosch had in it's warrany for the original smaller units that sold in the United States, that use of chlorine bleach would void the lifetime warranty on the wash tubs. Europeans in general do not use LCB for laundry, prefering hot or boiling water along with oxygen bleaches, so this never presented a problem. It was only when European frontloaders began to arrive on these shores in great numbers that their makers faced problems. The main problem being that Americans are wedded to chlorine bleach as they are to red meat! *LOL* Slowly Bosch, then even Miele saw the light and now most European front loaders sold on this side of the pond allow the use of LCB. A dispenser has even been provided for same. Amercian front loaders such as those made by Whirlpool and Electrolux have long had bleach dispensers. Thing to notice is that in most cases outer tubs have become plastic instead of stainless steel, and or warranties for tubs and certian other parts are no longer life time in some cases. One wonders if this is partly in response to the preceived damage LCB will cause over time. L. | ||
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Post# 217874 , Reply# 30 6/23/2007 at 22:46 (6,151 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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I should be a test-case for the effects of liquid chlorine bleach on front-loaders; I use LCB in 4-5 loads each week---two loads of kitchen/personal whites, a BobLoad® of white bath towels and two loads of white bed linens. My 5-1/2 year old Frigidaire FL'er is showing no signs of trouble. (Now, if that statement wasn't a silver-platter invitation for superstitous trouble, I don't know what is, LOL!) | ||
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Post# 217922 , Reply# 31 6/24/2007 at 06:31 (6,151 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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It is
Eugene, it is. The spider is made of aluminum and is deteriorating in the chlorine bleach. From what I have read and seen, the marketing departments and young-dynamic-managers just added the dispensers for the US market without changing a thing. When I talked to the repair department at Lowe's in Loveland this February, they told me it is their only remaining "predictable" failure with the Electrolux units (Kenmore, Frigidaire, some GE, etc.). Part of the US resistance to oxygen bleach is because the first ones were sodium perborate and this only works in very very extremely hot water; so it is basically useless in US washing conditions - this, like the first itchy enzyme detergents conditioned US perceptions of what works for decades and, of course, the ridiculous prices for oxygen bleaches compared to chlorine in the US. They are marketed as specialty cleansers, not as the work horse normal additive as over here. Of course, when push comes to shove - my cat who was dying of cancer, who had to have as germ free an environment as possible - I still used chlorine bleach and the 212° wash cycle. The six months of this were seven years ago and that washer is still running at a friend's house...an Electrolux. But why chance it? | ||
| Post# 217951 , Reply# 32 6/24/2007 at 10:43 (6,150 days old) by passatdoc (Orange County, California) | ||
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dumb question by "oxygen bleach" do you mean products like Oxy Clean and similar? | ||
| Post# 217992 , Reply# 33 6/24/2007 at 15:47 (6,150 days old) by cny4 (Central New York) | ||
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It is not a dumb question, You just beat me to asking the same thing! | ||
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Post# 217996 , Reply# 34 6/24/2007 at 16:09 (6,150 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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oxygen bleaches
I am not an expert, and I think the link below (a few years old but still valid information) will tell you much more than I can. Basically, oxygen bleaches can be dry or wet. Like all bleaches, the warmer the water, the better they work, but the sodium perborate formulas need the hottest water possible to work very well at all. Nowadays this is pretty much limited to dishwasher tabs, but was sold in the US for many many years as a laundry bleach. It worked so poorly in cold and lukewarm water that many folks my age associate "oxygen bleach" with "not very effective". This is wrong, of course. In Europe, all-purpose laundry detergents tend to have one form or other of dry oxygen bleach. Oxy-clean and similar products use oxygen bleach and other chemicals to attack stains. I don't know the formulation of oxy-clean. Used properly, you can nearly do away with chlorine bleach and get the same results - better, really, since you can use oxygen bleaches on many fabrics which must not be chlorine bleached. We really need one of the detergent experts here. CLICK HERE TO GO TO panthera's LINK | ||
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Post# 218029 , Reply# 35 6/24/2007 at 20:35 (6,150 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Hydrogen Peroxide (3% chemist variety or 6% hair bleach), will provide oxygen for laundry bleaching. Sodium Perborate - The "hot water" oxygen bleach, will bleach but requires 140F water temps and above to really become effective. However modern bleach activators such as TAED, allow bleaching action to take place at 100F. Sodium perborate is difficult to rinse and has been banned by the EU for laundry purposes because of the danger boron poses to plant and aquatic life. Sodium Percarbonate - The "cold water" oxygen bleach, will bleach in cold water as well as hot or boiling, thus has a wider reaction time and use than sodium perborate. Sodium percarbonate releases more oxygen in wash water than sodium perborate and according to some studies than liquid hydrogen peroxide. All oxygen bleaches will work to some extent in cold temperatures, but bleaching action increases as temperatures rise. IIRC the numbers are something like a 20% increase in bleaching power for each 10 degrees of water temperature. This is why "colour safe" bleaches were traditionally sodium perborate as it wouldn't bleach using the normal wash temperatures for colours (warm or cool water). However if one washed those same colours at 140F or above, that is a different story. Sodium perborate is somewhat inexpensive, which was the reason it was used on both sides of the pond. European laundry products have begun phasing the stuff out (Persil/Germany now contains sodium percarbonate bleaching agents), while American laundry detergents/bleaches mostly are sodium perborate (Biz, Clorox II dry), though most of the "Oxi" types are sodium percarbonate. In general chlorine bleach is more effective in removing a wider array of stains and at lower temperatures/contact times than oxygen bleaches. However due to the damage repeated and or improper use of LCB, many prefer to use oxygen bleach. To get the whitening power of chlorine bleach, oxygen bleaches require either hot to boiling water or long contact times. Oxygen bleaches and chlorine bleaches cancel each other out, one can be used to neutralise the other. That is you can pre-treat a bad stain with LCB, then launder with an oxygen bleach. The later will cancel out the former. White vinegar will also remove remaining traces of chlorine bleach. | ||
| Post# 218096 , Reply# 36 6/25/2007 at 02:37 (6,150 days old) by mrx () | ||
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Unilever Persil uses : Sodium Carbonate Peroxide The link below shows you the full formulation (EU home & personal care products only - they're required under EU law to disclose their full ingredient list) CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK | ||
| Post# 218111 , Reply# 38 6/25/2007 at 04:44 (6,150 days old) by mielabor () | ||
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Persil Sorry, I made a mistake: Persil comes from PERborate, not percarbonate. | ||
| Post# 218350 , Reply# 42 6/26/2007 at 04:14 (6,149 days old) by mrx () | ||
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The link Link to Dial Corp. CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrx's LINK | ||
| Post# 218428 , Reply# 44 6/26/2007 at 13:09 (6,148 days old) by peterh770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
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I wouldn't be surprised to find that US Wisk is the same formula as UK Persil. I'm extremely pleased with the performance of Wisk 3x HE and the green bottle ALL S&M in my FL. The way that Dial/Henkel has positioned the Purex brand, they would never make it high end like Persil. Better to be #1 in the budget brand market than go up against the high end 1000 pound gorilla. More likely that they would come up with another brand name or revive a dead brand to introduce a high end Persil-like formula to compete with Tide. But then, their importing/marketing agreement with Miele might prevent that anyway. | ||
| Post# 218438 , Reply# 45 6/26/2007 at 14:42 (6,148 days old) by mrx () | ||
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I wonder if Henkel have rights to Persil as a TM in the US and Canada. It's quite possible that Unilever have it there too. Unilever definitely have it France, Ireland, New Zealand and The UK. | ||
| Post# 218533 , Reply# 46 6/26/2007 at 21:48 (6,148 days old) by btjustice () | ||
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Here is an interesting article about P&G & Unilever... CLICK HERE TO GO TO btjustice's LINK | ||
| Post# 220118 , Reply# 47 7/2/2007 at 18:12 (6,142 days old) by washertalk () | ||
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Congrads to those who recently got new Front Loaders. | ||
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