Thread Number: 214
New Maytag top loaders returned
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Post# 46307   10/4/2004 at 22:50 (7,132 days old) by gregm ()        

I met up with an app dealer who will no longer carry the new Maytag (neptune?) top loader, the one that has those two rotating wheels in the bottom sides of the tub ?? He has sold three and all three returned within less than two weeks, all complaints being the same that they tangle the clothes terribly. Anyone else here of this ?? I found it odd that the last three were all returned for the same reason. What odds ??




Post# 46311 , Reply# 1   10/5/2004 at 06:13 (7,132 days old) by jaxsunst ()        

Some post on Epinions said the same thing.

Post# 46313 , Reply# 2   10/5/2004 at 07:25 (7,132 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
That's interesting; I inquired about the Maytag Neptune TL at my local Frigidaire/Maytag appliance store. The owner said he'd sold three locally and has had 2 unhappy buyers complain loudly about excessive tangling. Apparantly, people don't like spending a grand for a machine with problems their $199 Roper BOL didn't have.

Post# 46316 , Reply# 3   10/5/2004 at 08:08 (7,132 days old) by Gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        

"Lightedcontrols" has one. Don't recall him complaining about tangling.

Post# 46327 , Reply# 4   10/5/2004 at 11:20 (7,132 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
It wouldn't surprise me, those machines tumble only one way.

Post# 46338 , Reply# 5   10/5/2004 at 16:04 (7,132 days old) by coldspot66 (Plymouth, Mass)        

Went to to GE sales training seminar today (10/5). Talked about the Harmony washer. They showed a clip of the Neptune top load washer washing a load with long sleeve shirts that got pretty tangled. It looks like it is kneading the laundry like bread dough! The tangling is reminiscent (sp) of the Frigidaire unimatic from the 50's.

Also I think the cycle times are long; 90 min! They may need to have those tumblers reverse a bit; maybe that will alleviate the problem?

I have to say I did like the tall tub Profile stainless tub dishwasher.


Post# 46370 , Reply# 6   10/5/2004 at 22:49 (7,131 days old) by westytoploader ()        

According to CR the shortest "normal" cycle time of a high-efficiency TL was 55 minutes for the GE Harmony, by far the shortest I've seen. The Calypso took 70 minutes, but the Neptune TL was by far the slowest--a whopping 95 minutes to complete 1 cycle! If that's the "normal" cycle I'd hate to see how long the longest cycle is! If I was to consider a high-efficiency TL, I'd choose the Harmony. The major tradeoff on FL and HE-TL machines is cycle time. I really don't like using a washer that takes longer than your dryer to complete a cycle; wastes time and for impatient people like me it makes doing the laundry a pain. My Kenmore TL flies though a cycle in 35-40 minutes, sometimes even less depending on what cycle I use. The Maytag DC has a similar cycle time. I did a few loads in my aunt/uncle's Frigemore when I stayed the night, and I fell asleep right after I started the last load!

Post# 46377 , Reply# 7   10/6/2004 at 02:12 (7,131 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
Cycle times

Austin, if you fell asleep using the Frigemore, you'd be like Rip Van Winkle waiting for one of the old combos to finish a cycle! :-)

Post# 46445 , Reply# 8   10/7/2004 at 01:37 (7,130 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
If short cycles are your thing, the new SQ front loaders should be right up your street.

According to the manual, and unless changes are made for the residential line:

Regular Cycle - 29 mins
Permanent Press Cycle - 27 mins
Delicate Cycle - 23 mins
Rinse and Spin Cycle - 12 mins
Spin Only Cycle - 10 mins

Seems kind of skimpy to me, but there might be changes before the release date.

Launderess


Post# 46447 , Reply# 9   10/7/2004 at 07:43 (7,130 days old) by christd1 ()        
Short Wash Times

I think this works both ways. You don't want to wait 95 minutes but 29 minutes doesn't give me peace of mind that my clothes will be clean. My Frigidaire FL takes about 50 mins to wash and 50 mins or less to dry.

Post# 46486 , Reply# 10   10/8/2004 at 06:08 (7,129 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Wash Times

peteski50's profile picture
Chris
I couldn't agree with you more. I have a LG combo the 3677. I realize the drying times are long. But the wash times are very long also. (70 to 90) minutes to do a regular cycle! That is kind of crazy.
Peter


Post# 46509 , Reply# 11   10/8/2004 at 14:26 (7,129 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Oh, you Americans are so impatient LOL

Post# 46558 , Reply# 12   10/9/2004 at 04:42 (7,128 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
cycle times

Short for FL machines, but typical for TL machines. My LK takes 26 minutes for full cycle (not including fill time, which varies according to water pressure). and I suspect that's typical of most TL machines, give or take 10 minutes or so.

Post# 48037 , Reply# 13   10/28/2004 at 19:11 (7,108 days old) by Partscounterman (Cortez, Colorado)        
Yes, I'm impatient too.

The fl washers really do need to get the cycle times cut down. My hettie takes an hour on the heavy duty cycle I like to use. I have the sanitary cycle but the durn thing takes 2 hours.If I add all the options(auto-soak,stain treat, 2nd rinse and extended spin) it would take 3 1/2 hours to wash a load of clothes. I could do a weeks laundry for a family of six with an Easy spindrier and have it wiped out and put away in 3 1/2 hours. The hettie, as I explained in a previous post, wastes an inordinate amount of time trying to get the load balanced just so.
When I had a Lady Kenmore toploader, the washer took @1/2 an hour and the dryer about an hour
Now in the 21st century, the washer takes an hour, but spins so well that drying time is 1/2 an hour. Thats progress!


Post# 48104 , Reply# 14   10/29/2004 at 12:20 (7,108 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Yes, I'm impatient too

peteski50's profile picture
I have a large LG3677 combo. I like the machine but I feel the cycle times are extremly long. A regular load with one extra rinse added could run about 1 hour and 20 minutes. I find the machine spends to much time preparing to spin. To many test tries before it reves up. But I am told all the Euro FL are like this. Actually from my hearing about all these machines only the frigemore runs a sensible time frame for a regulkar cycle.
Peter


Post# 48106 , Reply# 15   10/29/2004 at 12:41 (7,108 days old) by Gyrafoam (Wytheville, VA)        

I used a Neptune T/L at a friends home recently and did not have a problem--but--it was a very small load. Don't know what would happen with a full load of jeans, beach towels or sheets or even a bedspread! -=Steve

Post# 48142 , Reply# 16   10/29/2004 at 20:57 (7,107 days old) by super32 (Blackstone Massachusetts)        

super32's profile picture
The bosch nexxt falls into the long wash catagory. 1hr for a normal cycle. My old neptune was about 46mins. If I choose the extra rinse, power wash, presoak etc.... i'm looking at 3hrs. I guess i've adjusted my schedule to accomadate it because the results are great!

Post# 48170 , Reply# 17   10/30/2004 at 04:03 (7,107 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
cycle times

When my 78 LK first broke down and before I got the 72 LK portable up and running, had to use SQ's at local laundramat. Felt sorta cheated, the cycle times were so short. I think they went through the whole cycle in the time my LK took just for the wash alone, with no rinsing or spinning.

Post# 48269 , Reply# 18   10/31/2004 at 18:03 (7,105 days old) by arrrooohhh (Sydney Australia)        
Getting used to it

I really dont know why people complain so much about long cycle times. Granted if you are doing serveral loads it may be a problem. But I get around it by washing at night, and putting them on the line in the morning.

Now that I am used to a front loader I actually found that is was odd how quick my mothers Whirlpool is, it seemed like it wasnt long enough.


Post# 48331 , Reply# 19   11/1/2004 at 13:17 (7,105 days old) by lightedcontrols ()        
MY TOL MAYTAG NEPTUNE

#1. The washer washes really VERY well. At the END of the cycle however, the discs turn to loosen the clothes from the tub. At this point they tangle terribly! Bad idea.

#2. The bleach dispensor doesn't get rid of all of the product, so you get bleach in the next three loads. Poor design. Bleach is also dispensed in the first rinse. How about the last 5 minutes of the wash cycle, where it's supposed to be. What moron came up with this one???

#3. Fabric softner dispenser doesn't dispense all of the product. It only puts water in the last minute of the last rinse's fill. It should add water for the entire last rinse to get all of the product out. More bad ideas.

#4. If you stop the washer the last minute of the cycle, it doesn't spin the clothes in a tangle. I've called Maytag about this and they can't (nor can we) de-program the machine to leave out the last minute of tangle! (Kelvinator had the


Post# 48430 , Reply# 20   11/2/2004 at 22:05 (7,103 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Mark I am on tip toe

jetcone's profile picture
Kelvinator had the.........what??? tell us!!

I love your reponse by the way!

Are you going to keep it??

jon


Post# 48511 , Reply# 21   11/4/2004 at 06:55 (7,102 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Mark, bleach in the first rinse has become quite normal with front loaders--I remember you having this as one of your complaints about your old HE3T Bob

Post# 49973 , Reply# 22   11/27/2004 at 11:39 (7,079 days old) by compwhiz ()        

I can see how it would tangle the clothes terribly

Post# 51918 , Reply# 23   12/28/2004 at 06:53 (7,048 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
bleach timing

Bleachinthe first rinse is a good idea, the reason bleach dispesers were timed for the last 5 minutes of the wash cycle in most machines is that the bleach tended to de-activate the detergent. By dispensing it into the first rinse, this problem is alleviated.

Post# 51981 , Reply# 24   12/29/2004 at 06:51 (7,047 days old) by designgeek ()        

I think it's a good bet that the reason for the tangling problem is that those discs at the bottom are basically the same as "pulsators," which are already known to cause tangled laundry. Perhaps Maytag figured they could eliminate the problem by having two of them rather than one, to break up the whirlpool-currents that pulsators normally cause. They may also have purchased the design and patents from an overseas company that makes pulsator machines, which are common in e.g. Asia (and apparently enough people use them that tangling is not considered unusual or a big deal).

However it's odd that they didn't discover this problem before releasing the machine onto the market. Or perhaps they have a foreign affiliate, the design originated there, and as per above, no one in (whichever country) complains about pulsator-tangle during testing.

Re. programmability: the programming is probably stored in an EPROM, in which case it could be reverse-engineered with a bit of hacking.

Maytag seem to be getting hit with a bunch of product problems in the last few years, i.e. the FL Neptunes that were cause of a class-action suit, and now the controversy over pulsator tangle. What gives..?


Post# 51986 , Reply# 25   12/29/2004 at 07:59 (7,047 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        
Maytag

laundromat's profile picture
MOHP on what has happened to Maytag is that in trying to not only keep up with the pace and meet the desires as well as the needs of consumers,their attempt to increase their top loader's tub capacity (their entire agitator line in no way represents or comes anywhere near the Dependable Care washer's reputation in reliability and performance.However,I would defenately take the models made like Norge before I would even consider the ones made like the Amana/Speed Queen)and try to compete with the front loading washer market.Their refrigerator line has improved 100% now that their sxs's are made by Amana as well as their bottom mount models.But their range line has failed in any improvements and they have had too many recalls for me to feel comfortable buying or selling them.Their"TallTub"dishwashers leave much to be desired.First of all,if you as a consumer are unaware of the need for the side clips to make them fit a comon dishwasher opening and you purchase the beginner models,you're screwed because they aren't included with them.You have to purchase them seperately.Maytag has recently been a bit leaniant about sending them to the customers who were unaware of the need for them or were not told buy their salespeople anything about them but they're starting to get tired of hearing the violin strum.Their OTR microwave ovens look great but be warned,I also sell the "el-cheapo"Ewaves that are also made by Daewoo who makes the Maytag OTR's.We have so far gotten about 35% of them back due to either DOA or board failier.Their compact front loadering Netunes so far/so good.I wish things were different and they had better products as well as more knowledgeable engineers.I do know that Samsung is interested in them but I dought if they would buy Maytag.

Post# 51987 , Reply# 26   12/29/2004 at 08:05 (7,047 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        
maytag

laundromat's profile picture
sorry for misspelling doubt and loading.Sometimes my fingers are faster than my brain.Sometimes I hear a lot of moaning when that happens!!!LOL

Post# 51989 , Reply# 27   12/29/2004 at 09:39 (7,047 days old) by agiflow ()        
so sad

So sad for Maytag to be struggling like they are.The thought of a foreign company taking over a company like Maytag would have probably seemed laughable 20 years ago.

At least many people have their old top load designs still running great,....what used to be (sigh).


Post# 52029 , Reply# 28   12/30/2004 at 11:20 (7,046 days old) by designgeek ()        


Same as it ever was, in one industry after another, and I could cite examples from other fields I'm familiar with.

I think the trend started with Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, and the ascendancy of Finance over Engineering in the business world, which led to "globalization", and thereby to the de-industrialization of the UK and USA respectively.

Sad as hell to see the good ones go.

In my own industry: Western Electric, 100 years of manufacturing the world's best telephone equipment, solid gold brand-equity if there ever was, a company run by engineers who worked their way up from the shop floor. Transformed via deregulation into AT&T Technologies, thence to Lucent, thence to Avaya, where things presently stand, with overpriced and relatively inflexible PBXs that I can easily beat in any fair competition.


Post# 52057 , Reply# 29   12/30/2004 at 18:36 (7,045 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
Much the same has happened with GE as well - sourcing low end dryers from Electrolux/WCI because they can't build them as cheap as they can buy them! The plastic tub washers need no further bashing, little or no "novel" engineering went into them - build them fast and cheap with the added value of five year obselecence. Even the new Harmony isn't a GE design - cheaper to source the engineering and manufacturing from Asia.

My stepfather worked for Western Electric here (wire plant) in 1957 through 1990 and saw much evolution into a company that employs less than 1/4 of it's peak number in the 60's and is now set to eliminate even more jobs.


Post# 52064 , Reply# 30   12/30/2004 at 21:46 (7,045 days old) by david (CA)        
Western Electric

I know we are gettig off subj here-well maybe not. In 1984 there were 7500 workers at Shreveport's Western Electric telephone plant. Today the plant is closed and I'm not sure if anything at all is leasing the building. That's a big blow for a city of 200000. And I know this has been going on nationwide for years now. People do find jobs-some stay most leave, but the upheaval is hard on the individual. But people are only willing to pay so much for a product. This is clearly what we have here. I am afraid of junky appliances, cars, trucks, etc. Our only hope is to keep CU testing everything and make some reasonable choice culled from their information. Actually I'm more afraid of imported agricultural products that slips by USDA inspection and makes people sick. Unregualted free trade? No thanks.

Post# 52081 , Reply# 31   12/31/2004 at 06:12 (7,045 days old) by designgeek ()        

David & Gansky1, interesting to hear about your own experiences with WE. Re. prices of equipment: Avaya has their stuff made in Asia as well, but it still prices out at about 1/3 more than an equivalent Panasonic PBX configuration; and Panasonic equipment is just as robust and more flexible in terms of programming. The Panasonic stuff is made in Japan and the UK, where production costs and labor are both more expensive than e.g. China.

I agree, foods not labeled for country of origin are scary; "have you had your RDA of DDT today?" Not to mention the potential for terrorist tampering (details omitted for the usual public safety reasons).

David, good point about CU testing. Though I read elsewhere on this site that Consumer Reports seems to be going downhill in certain respects lately.

Which brings us back to topic here:-), specifically, what about sites such as Epinions.com? I would expect that these are picking up some of the slack from where CU leaves off, with the caveat that "layperson reviews" are not controlled tests. A significant problem such as "impeller tangle" should be evident enough to make it into epinions.com reviews, yes?

On the other hand, I've seen some product reviews on epinions.com that look like they could have been written by people who were working for the manufacturer or retailer. Is this a common problem, and what kinds of steps are taken to minimize the risk of a forum being misused that way?


Post# 53591 , Reply# 32   1/15/2005 at 21:17 (7,029 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
New combos

So one wonders when LG and others are going to get with it and realize that they need to offer combos that run on 220 VOLTS like the original ones did. With the higher spin speeds would take much less time to dry than the original combos did

Post# 53700 , Reply# 33   1/17/2005 at 09:44 (7,028 days old) by designgeek ()        

Yes, but those would require additional "dryer power outlets" which have to be installed by an electrician, thereby introducing a barrier to people buying them.

Back to Maytag: I recently ran across an Asian manufacturer's website, I think they're in India, which mentioned the three basic washing systems (agitator, impeller, and horizontal tumble). Said that the "American-style" agitator has problems tangling clothes around the central shaft, and says that's not a problem with the impeller/pulsator.

I think what we may be seeing here is the possible effect of different types of clothing and fabrics in different cultures.

Impeller/pulsators are favored in Asia. Agitators in the USA, with horizontals gaining for efficiency reasons and impeller/pulsators starting to come in from Asian manufacturers. Horizontals in Europe (same reason), with some impeller/pulsators, e.g. in compact washers. The key distinction here is between the agitators and the impeller/pulsators.

Yet, the Panasonic Japan site says that their new-type machines don't cause tangling whereas previous models (impeller/pulsators) do, and they even show a picture of someone (trying to) pull tangled clothes out of an impeller/pulsator machine (one of their own machines; to their credit, Panasonic is not above being self-critical).

So this is a mystery. Are there significant cultural differences in fabrics and garments that interact with the type of agitator used, to produce paradoxical results in different countries...?


Post# 53792 , Reply# 34   1/18/2005 at 03:19 (7,027 days old) by kenmore1978 ()        
Dryer outlets

"Yes, but those would require additional "dryer power outlets" which have to be installed by an electrician, thereby introducing a barrier to people buying them."

But a lot of people already have those outlets installed, electric dryers are more comon than gas ones, it turns out. They have the outlet, they like the one machine idea, but there's nothing available. Also, there were GAS combos, too, why can't that be done again?


Post# 53820 , Reply# 35   1/18/2005 at 16:32 (7,027 days old) by arrrooohhh (Sydney Australia)        
Impellers and tangling

I hate to sound like a tangled wet blanket but all these claim made on the Panasonic web site are advertsing hyperbole. Of course there washing machine is going to tangle less than others. And I dont believe there drift about agitators tangling because of the "big centre post" Its all just claims. The same way one manufacturer says there machine can handle half a kilo more washing than the other, with out the need to increase the size of the tub.

LG and Samsung all make claims about the design of their impellers being less tangle but the fact is that here in australia where impeller and agitator top loaders sell in equal numbers and all sizes and washing Australian clothes that the impellers to tangle to different extents.


Post# 53822 , Reply# 36   1/18/2005 at 17:26 (7,027 days old) by westytoploader ()        
Tangling---Agitator vs. Impeller

IMHO, I think an oscillating, non-corkscrew agitator tangles less than an impeller (pulsator). The Maytag's Power-Fin doesn't tangle at all, not even on sheets. Same with the DD Surgilator, Penta-Vane, and Roto-Swirl. The Dual-Action and LoadSensor (both corkscrews) are another story...WHEW!

The GE Portable's impeller does tangle, however it washes everything well and I haven't pulled anything out that was difficult to "un-bunch"...yet. The two tabletops (one with a horizontal impeller, one with a bottom-mounted impeller) do ball up the small loads that I wash in them, but you're dealing with the tangling on a much smaller scale, so again it's much easier. Like the GE, they are also good performers.

I've had limited FL experience and no GM Frigidaire/Kelvinator experience (at least not until June...YAY), but when I used the White-Westy (simpler, later design with AEG motor and electric pump) and a Frigemore there was virtually no tangling.

--Austin



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