Thread Number: 27661
Keep old dishwasher or buy new? 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 424156   3/22/2010 at 14:40 (5,148 days old) by retropia ()        

Hello, our Kenmore dishwasher, model 665.16791791, is now 12 years old and we're thinking about replacing it. The vinyl-coated racks are starting to rust; not too badly, considering the age of the unit, but it will no doubt continue to get worse over time. The last time I checked, I believe new racks would be around $200.

Otherwise, this dishwasher has worked like a champ. The only thing that went wrong is the rubber hose underneath the top rack, that routes water to the spray arm, rotted. I went to Lowe's and purchased a length of vinyl hose for about a buck, and it works fine again.

This Kenmore has the electro-mechanical control panel, with a dial/timer, plus a few push-buttons for other choices.

After reading horror stories online about how "modern" electronic control panels can go on the fritz after only a year or two or three on new dishwashers, I'm concerned about replacing the Kenmore. Almost all new dishwashers, except for the barest-of-bones builder models, have the electronic panels.

I have found a new Hotpoint I like, Model HLD4000NWW. It is discontinued; last built in fall of 2009, according to GE. However, I can order one through my local Appliance Smart dealer for $322, plus tax. I can get it home and install it myself, as I've done replacement dishwashers before.

There is a state rebate program that will give me $100 back. This dishwasher has every feature I want, except the nylon racks, which I can live without.

Should I go for the Hotpoint, or keep trudging along with the old Kenmore, maybe replacing the racks and hoping I get a few more years out of it?

Sorry to be so wordy, and thanks in advance for your thoughts!




Post# 424207 , Reply# 1   3/22/2010 at 18:57 (5,148 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
The evil you know...

 Is better than the evil you don't know!

I would say stick with the Kenmore. You have the Power Module pump which will outclean just about anything out there and is a proven and long lasting design.

As far as the racks go.. I have a set from a whirlpool tall tub that may go right into your machine,so if you can take a picture of them I can check for you.

Also, you can probably find a good set of racks for free from a machine at the curb or behind Lowes or any local appliance store. They are so common and the only difference between the Kenmore and WP rack is the Kenmore is longer in the front so it fits into the door cutout where the silverware rack would go in the WP. The WP rack is therefore, more squared off in the front. Heck, even a Kitchenaid rack may fit in there perfectly as long as it is of the WP design. Just be aware that if you get one that is adjustable you may have to take the feed tube as well, as some had the double openings to accommodate the supply tube on the rack to go into the upper or lower opening in the tube. Send the pics of the racks or post them here. I bet someone even closer to you will have a set.

Check out your local Craigslist too. You may be able to pick up a complete machine for a low price and wind up with loads of spare parts for your machine or one that has even more features than yours and still has the power module pump.

Post# 424213 , Reply# 2   3/22/2010 at 19:47 (5,148 days old) by rpms (ontario canada)        

rpms's profile picture
Could you show how you fixed the hose? I need to too.

Post# 424250 , Reply# 3   3/22/2010 at 22:57 (5,148 days old) by retropia ()        

Here are some photos of the Kenmore.

Post# 424251 , Reply# 4   3/22/2010 at 22:57 (5,148 days old) by retropia ()        

Here is a lower rack photo.

Post# 424252 , Reply# 5   3/22/2010 at 22:58 (5,148 days old) by retropia ()        

Another lower rack photo.

Post# 424254 , Reply# 6   3/22/2010 at 22:59 (5,148 days old) by retropia ()        

Here is the upper rack. The long-utensil basket clips on to the front of the rack.

Post# 424257 , Reply# 7   3/22/2010 at 23:04 (5,148 days old) by retropia ()        

Here is a photo of the replacement supply tube. All I did was remove the old supply tube; it just slips on and off both ends. There are no clamps. I took it to Lowe's. You can buy tubing there by the foot; they cut it for you. I matched the diameter of the old tube to new tubing, took home my purchase, used the old tube as a template to mark where to cut against the new tube for a final trim, cut it with scissors, then slipped it on both ends. Repairs don't get much easier than this one.

Post# 424258 , Reply# 8   3/22/2010 at 23:07 (5,148 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Kenmore Dishwasher!

 peteski50's profile picture
I would not let this one go it's a real keeper compared to the garbage they make today. You can find some way to replace the racks.


Post# 424263 , Reply# 9   3/22/2010 at 23:20 (5,148 days old) by retropia ()        

The racks are really the only parts going bad at the moment; I guess I should investigate if "low mileage" replacements are available.

So are parts like the pump, timer, valves, and door seal likely to continue holding up for awhile longer? Frankly, I'm amazed this dishwasher has held together so well for so long. I would probably have to hire a repairman to replace any of those parts.

It saddens me that at least some new dishwashers are trouble-prone and short-lived. I hate that things are being built to be ever-cheaper.

Post# 424279 , Reply# 10   3/23/2010 at 02:30 (5,147 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        

lordkenmore's profile picture
I'd vote for trying to keep the Kenmore going. Racks may be a problem, but with careful shopping, you might get a really good deal.

Electronic controls aren't the only thing that can cause problems on modern dishwashers. I remember replacing a door latch on a Maytag a few years ago. The old latch failed with (maybe) the equivalent of a typical family "one load a day for only one year" use. Not impressive. The rest of the dishwasher felt pretty flimsy, too.

As for the mechanical timers in today's cheapest dishwashers, I have to wonder if they wouldn't be just as troublesome as electronic controls.

There are things that could go wrong in the Kenmore, but I think it's a better gamble. Even if repairs are needed here and there, chances are it'll be less trouble and less of a pain in the neck than a modern flimsy piece of junk.

Post# 424358 , Reply# 11   3/23/2010 at 12:19 (5,147 days old) by spookiness (Alexandria VA)        

Mine is similar to this, but with push buttons instead of a dial.
I love this dishwasher!

I'm experiencing a wearing lower rack too, and I'm keeping my eyes peeled and hoping for a curbside find.

The tips of the tines started to wear a couple years ago, so I got some little plastic tips which do the trick nicely. However, some of the coating is coming off on the corners of the racks.

My upper rack tube occasionally comes off, but I just shove it back on. Will probably eventually investigate some kind of clamp.

Post# 424370 , Reply# 12   3/23/2010 at 13:45 (5,147 days old) by rll70sman (Hastings, Minnesota)        

By all means, locate used racks from a junked unit. It seems like it wouldn't be too hard since so many people replace rather than repair appliances these days. I'm assuming that this Kenmore is a reliable rebadged Whirlpool machine. Trust me, you probably don't want to buy a new dishwasher. Most of the new ones are full of flimsy, plastic parts that'll break with the motors, pumps, and other major components engineered to fail within five to seven years. Planned obsolescence really sucks!

Post# 424386 , Reply# 13   3/23/2010 at 15:04 (5,147 days old) by 48bencix (Sacramento CA)        
I've got the same one

 I have the same machine and the same problem. My racks have actually lost a couple of the tines due to rust. The darn thing is the best cleaning dishwasher I have ever had and it only has two washes and one rinse! (Plus that purge before the rinse) The main thing I hate, and I mean hate, about new machines is their long cycle times. This unit will clean and dry in about 45 minutes, so you can wash the dishes and put them away after dinner, let's say. I have even thought of getting a new one and keeping my door and installing that. I also hate the electronic timer units that all machines seem to have now. At least with the knob, I can simply turn it if I want to eliminate the dry cycle, for instance.

Post# 424443 , Reply# 14   3/23/2010 at 17:51 (5,147 days old) by retropia ()        

My parents had the exact same unit, too, which was a total coincidence. Their racks rusted much more quickly than mine; they replaced the Kenmore with a Maytag maybe four years ago.

One thing Mom did differently is that she rarely used the heated drying cycle. She thinks it is kinder to her dishes to let them air dry.

However, a friend of mine in the past told me that it is always better to use the heated drying cycle, specifically because doing so slows the rack rusting.

I guess the vinyl covering the steel easily gets micro-cuts, allowing water to start the rusting process. The longer water sits there, the more rust builds. Heated drying makes the water evaporate faster, thus less rust. That's the theory, anyway.

Post# 424454 , Reply# 15   3/23/2010 at 18:40 (5,147 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
HEATED DRY IS HARD ON THE RACKS

 combo52's profile picture
One of the reasons WP had so much trouble with rack rust is that the detergent dispensers were so large it encouraged people to use too much detergent. I WOULD NEVER FILL THE CUPS MORE THAN ONE HALF FULL EVEN LESS IF YOU PRE RINSE THE DISHES. I would keep this machine but if you must get a new one Sears is still selling the same design but with electronic controls.

Post# 424986 , Reply# 16   3/26/2010 at 13:43 (5,144 days old) by 48bencix (Sacramento CA)        
So why do I always find out too late.

 I admit to using non heated dry for almost the whole time I have had my machine. And my partner loves to fill the cups full inspite of me showing him the owner's manual. So I have rusty racks.

Sears does sell the machine with electronic controls and nylon racks, which is nice. But the cycle times are really long, did I mention that I really hate that? That's why I was thinking of just putting my door on a new machine, that would keep my timer and cycle times!

Post# 424994 , Reply# 17   3/26/2010 at 14:06 (5,144 days old) by retropia ()        

I don't claim to be an expert on the cause of rusty racks, but a friend with lots of appliance experience recommended to me to always use heated dry, to slow the progression of rack rust.

As far as soap goes, I rarely fill the cups completely full. Usually the main cup gets filled to 2/3 of capacity, and the auxilliary cup gets filled to 1/2 of capacity.

I can tell that the vinyl finish on the bottom rack is darker, slightly "burned" looking where it is directly above the heating elements. The rest of the rack is lighter-colored. However, I don't notice any greater prevalance of rust on the darker-colored section of the bottom rack. The tips of the tines, anywhere on both racks, seem to be the weak spot.

Post# 425008 , Reply# 18   3/26/2010 at 15:55 (5,144 days old) by retropia ()        
State rebate program starts today

 Today our state rebate program starts, for purchases made of Energy Star dishwashers, refrigerators and washers. Your tax dollars at work!

Not much luck yet finding good condition, used racks. I've considered purchasing the Kenmore #13442 that Combo52 mentions, just for the new racks. The current sale price is $303. Less the $100 rebate, that brings it down to $203, which is about the price of new racks alone.

I measured the racks on the model at Sears, and while they are slightly different, I believe they'd fit in my old dishwasher. The critical measurements are the same. Then I'd keep the new Kenmore in storage until the old one had a major failure, then install the new one.

The only problem with this plan is that I'm trying to get rid of stuff and don't really have room to store a dishwasher-in-waiting.

I visited the Sears parts website to compare parts between old and new Kenmores, to see how similar they really are under the hood. I didn't look at every part, but some are the same, like the impeller (in stock) and the base pump (back ordered). Besides the controls and racks being different, the motor pump is also different. On my old Kenmore, the motor pump price is $228, while the new Kenmore's is priced at $160.

As 48bencix mentions, the short run time of the old Kenmore is a major convenience; when you need to do a fast load, you really need it. Most of the time I run it at night after we go to bed, so a longer run time wouldn't be noticed. But when you're entertaining and need to do multiple loads, having to wait two or three hours for one load to complete would be a real bother.

Post# 425045 , Reply# 19   3/26/2010 at 20:30 (5,144 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture
We have a Sears "outlet" here in town that has quite a selection of appliances at good discounts. If you have a similar Sears place near you, that might be a good option for a cheap new machine that has the right racks.


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