Thread Number: 32606
Miele W1918 Bearings
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Post# 491611   1/26/2011 at 09:45 (2,947 days old) by grahamW ()        

Does anyone have a guide on how to pull and replace the drum bearing on a Miele W1918? Also, where the best place to order the bearing and any needed seals online?

I've read various threads here that cite a problem with the design in the W1918 machines that leads to premature failure. Does anyone know if it specific to the W1918 or does it also occur with the W19xx series 5kg machines? Or, could it simply be related to the higher spin speed of the W1918, compared to say a W1903.





Post# 491655 , Reply# 1   1/26/2011 at 13:43 (2,947 days old) by grahamW ()        
Video

I've uploaded a video that shows the issue with my washer.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO grahamW's LINK


Post# 491685 , Reply# 2   1/26/2011 at 17:14 (2,946 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Have you contacted Miele in Canada for part information?

Though an "older" unit the 19XX series isn't vintage enough for Miele to stopped offerng parts all together, though what they have in stock may be limited. Also once a model starts getting up there (like my 1070) Miele North America will cease inporting spare parts, thus leaving only whatever inventory is left. Once this is gone that is that. However being as this may, not sure if one can request Miele import a part not in stock, which they will do for current items.

IIRC someone here in the group or perhaps somewhere on the Internet posted how they changed the bearings on their Miele 1918. It is not a job for the faint hearted. For a start you will require a winch or some other way to get those heavy tubs out of the cabinet. IIRC, Miele does this sort of repair work here in the States, but only at their New Jersey workshop.



Post# 491721 , Reply# 3   1/26/2011 at 18:46 (2,946 days old) by grahamW ()        
Miele Canada

I consider Miele Canada to be the part-source of last resort. I'll call for a price, but past experience suggests that ordering Miele parts from the EU is cheaper, even with int'l shipping. I've seen bearings for sale online (example in the link below) and was just wondering if anyone had experience with them.

As for removing the drum, I have more than enough tools, a hoist and a hydraulic press if needed ;)


CLICK HERE TO GO TO grahamW's LINK on eBay


Post# 491727 , Reply# 4   1/26/2011 at 19:10 (2,946 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

One could have a broken ball bearing; or a broken spider too. If the spider is cracked or broken it can be just one of the 3 arms; if it has three. The looseness then will vary with the drum's position since often not all the arms are broken off yet.


A ball bearing failure can be like what happened with my 1976 front loader westinghouse. The front bearings cage broke and the bearing had its balls not separated apart anymore and thus the drum could be pulled a lot at the front in any direction perpendicular to the shaft.

Ball Bearing sizes have been standardized for over 70 years now. Seals are specfic to washing machines since a special lip design is used in washers.

With luck you only have a ball bearing failure. It is a 1/2 to day's work to replace them on a FL machine.

It is decent job and worth doing if one wants to learn too.

You may want to rip the beast apart before ordering bearings, in case there is a spider issue, or a cracked gizmo


Post# 491761 , Reply# 5   1/26/2011 at 23:29 (2,946 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Thing Is

launderess's profile picture
Until the machine is opened and examined you don't know what you are dealing with.

Yes, it could be as "simple" as the bearings being gone, but what about the belt? Shaft? Pulley? Other parts?

Would be a shame to order say a bearing seal kit only to find out there is more going on in there. Then your options are to leave the machine in bits until you can source parts, or put it back together only to have to redo the entire thing again.

While your machine is out of warranty, Miele does over a limited warranty of a sort on parts and work done by their techs. If you do the job yourself with generic parts, all bets might off should something happen down the line.

As for ordering parts from the EU, while the 1918 is an "older" unit therefore someone might be looking to unload various things cheaply, not all things inside your machine are "old" design. If Miele is still using bearing, spiders, et al from that design in current units, you may or may not see a difference in price.

Another thing to consider is Miele North America prices it's parts at cost from when they were imported, not today's exhange rate. Maybe the Canadian dollar is doing better against the Euro than ours (USD), but then again consider you will be paying shipping and VAT on top. If you need larger parts such as say a spider shipping may be either costly nor not possible out of some countries. Getting anything "large" out of Germany for instance is next to impossible. If it won't fit in the largest sized parcel post box, most German sellers of anything won't even bother.


Regarding the link to seller of bearings:

For this to work you'll need the corresponding EU model to your W1918.

Before going off on a tear, rather than self diagnosing from the "outside" (and I say this as one who had dealt with a few "vintage" Miele washer problems), I'd either call out Miele service or "pop the bonnet" and see what is going on inside.

Used older Mieles and often even newer models do pop up on eBay and CL all the time. You might be able to find another 1918 for what it would cost in parts to repair the one you have.

Contact Miele tech support, and see if you can get one of the old heads, not a hot shot youngster. Someone familiar with your unit and start asking questions. Ask for a parts diagram showing the tubs and or drums/bearing areas. Miele used to email/fax such information free of charge, don't know if they still do.

Once you get the above, go over them to get a feel of how the unit is put together.

You might also seek out a Miele affliated service person. We have them here and they are former Miele techs whom have gone out on their own, and or free-lance repairmen who have been trained to work on Miele appliances.


Post# 491816 , Reply# 6   1/27/2011 at 09:35 (2,946 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
The Pulley & Belt looks OK; it is in Graham's video

Since the pulley and belt are clearly visible, these parts are not the issue at all.

One can unplug the washer and actually touch these parts if any doubt. The4 bonnet has already been "popped" since the video shows the pulley.

About the only things that can be wrong are the bearings, a cracked or broken spider, or the spider's bolts or welds to the basket are loose/broken. To see what is really wrong requires more than just popping the bonnet. It is more like having to take apart an engine or transmission in car.


To say what is wrong requires taking the basket out, a very massive job. Both a cracked spider or broken ball bearing will make the basket have massive "play".

Here in the USA having a tech come to one's house for a service call can be 60 to 100 bucks just to look at ones washer or dryer. To have one rip apart the machine to get the basket out would be another 100 to 200.


The real issue is do you want to pay a service guy 4 to 8 hours labor to fix this machine, plus parts cost. Most folks scrap the machine, since the cost is more than a new machine.

Doing it your self might just having you buying the 2 bearing and seal, and and gobs of time. ie the total fix can be less than 100 bucks if the spider is still ok. if the spider is bad you have to see if they sell just the spider; or the basket spider assembly too. In the usa some old sears machines have one the entire assembly and it might be 400 + bucks.

A cracked spider or loose one often will have a "looseness/play" that "maps" with the basket; since both are tied to each other. A broken bearing cage can have the play to be loose at all angles to the basket.


Post# 491824 , Reply# 7   1/27/2011 at 10:04 (2,946 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
crude diagram

Many belt driven FL washers are built like this crude diagram I just ginned up.

A typical failure mode is the SEAL in pink leaks and the front ball bearing goes first, or the spider in purple cracks or breaks.


About every FL washer ever made has two ball bearings and one seal.


Post# 491839 , Reply# 8   1/27/2011 at 11:14 (2,946 days old) by grahamW ()        

Thanks for the advice everyone. Indeed, the pulley, belt, motor all look and feel fine (no play at all that I could feel coming from the pulley). The play is really in the drum as the 'knock' in the video tries to show. From the inside, the closer to the front of the drum you push the easier it is to knock the bearing. A Miele service call-out to my location is a minimum $150 + surcharge for being out of their 50 km range. Even then, it doesn't sound as though the techs will even attempt to remove the drum in the field. I will certainly attempt to get a parts diagram from them. However, I figure that since I'm capable of maintaining/repairing my German cars (VW/MB), I'm probably able to disassemble a German washer. As for repairing it, I'll do it if it makes sense and the shaft/spider are ok.

The spider assembly is actually a very heavy cast on these machines so I'm hopeful that these are not cracked. I'd expect a lot more play if they were, but we'll need to wait and see when it comes apart (hopefully this weekend).

What worries me a little are the comments Launderess made in Post# 439852 about the W1918 having a design problem with the bearing which leads to premature failure in a previous thread (see link). Does anyone have any additional info on this?


CLICK HERE TO GO TO grahamW's LINK


Post# 491858 , Reply# 9   1/27/2011 at 12:10 (2,946 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

When a "bearing goes and physically has a mechanical breakage" it typically is not both; ie have the balls of cages fall out at the same time.

Thus a typical FL washer often has its front Bearing go (since closest to the seal that leaked) ; but the rear still works but is noisy and corroded, but it still works as a ball bearing. My 1976 FL failed like this.

Now if one can visualize that now the point of rotation when moving the basket up and down is the still intact rear bearing. ie when only a rear bearing is broken the rear belted pulley will have more up and down play then if the front bearing was broken.

Thus if a friend hoss'es the basket up and down vertically; watch the movement of the pulley. A rear bearing being close to the pulley would have the pulley with a lot of play. You might have the roll/remove the belt to measure/sense the play better.



Post# 491884 , Reply# 10   1/27/2011 at 13:57 (2,945 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
pulley movement with both types of bearing failures



Hope this makes it clear


Post# 491886 , Reply# 11   1/27/2011 at 14:00 (2,945 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
instant center

If one grabs the basket and moves it up and down; the point it rotates in space is the good remaining bearing.



Post# 491892 , Reply# 12   1/27/2011 at 14:43 (2,945 days old) by grahamW ()        
Miele Canada and parts

Thanks 3beltwesty. Miele Canada came through with some diagrams and part numbers. One of the nice things about Miele is that I've always found them pleasant and easy to deal with. If they can help, they will. There are two drum bearing kits listed under separate part #s in addition to the separate items. The 1st is the grouping of items 2-10 which includes the spider and the 2nd is items 3-10 without it. I won't know which I need
until it is disassembled.


Post# 491904 , Reply# 13   1/27/2011 at 15:41 (2,945 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Nice diagram



Part #2 must be the bearing housing that holds the OD of the ball bearings.

Is this part towards the rear of the unit; ie behind the tub #1?

ie can you touch this piece reaching through or above the pulley's spokes? (unplugged of course). I think part #2 is held in place by those gold cap screws in that youtube screen capture image I posted already.


Post# 492331 , Reply# 14   1/29/2011 at 05:54 (2,944 days old) by limey ()        
Spiders and Bearings

Whilst I have not dismantled a Miele machine from what I understand the ‘spider’, item # 2 from the above diagram, is a heavy cast iron or steel ‘spider’ fitted to the back of the outer drum to stiffen it. It holds the bearings and seal items 3, 4, 6 and 7 from the subject diagram, with perhaps, items 5 and 9 are also included in the required ‘kit’.
The spider which is the subject of so much discussion regarding corrosion is not shown in this diagram but a photograph is available at the thread: -
www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T...
The inner tub is shown as item 11.
Good Luck and please let us know how you get on.


Post# 492466 , Reply# 15   1/29/2011 at 18:50 (2,943 days old) by eddy1210 (Burnaby BC Canada)        

eddy1210's profile picture

I have a Miele tech friend here in Vancouver, and there's nothing different or "flawed" about the bearings in the 1918 as opposed to the other models.  I too have a W1918.  The factors involved are the 1600 rpm spin, which customers use all the time for cottons, and the fact that the 1918 has no OOB control, other than a tach on the motor that reduces the spin speed if it's overly unbalanced.  I have scratches and scars on my window glass to prove it!  So, it seems to be a combinations of factors that lead to premature bearing wear.


Post# 492504 , Reply# 16   1/29/2011 at 21:11 (2,943 days old) by grahamW ()        
Almost out

Thanks limey and eddy1210 for your insight. Working at an easy pace, it took about an hour this evening to disassemble everything in preparation for removing the drum. Right now, the drum is free and resting on the shipping bars. Assuming my daughter isn't too fussy in the morning, I should be able to hoist it out and get a puller on the bearing first thing tomorrow.

Post# 492639 , Reply# 17   1/30/2011 at 14:17 (2,942 days old) by limey ()        
Fitting bearings

I have said it before but I believe it will not go amiss here.
When fitting new bearings only apply force to the race which has to be forced into its housing (outer race) or onto a shaft (inner race). Pressing or tapping the 'other' race, or even worse the cage, could, and likely will damage both of the races and some of the balls by 'bruising' which will lead to premature bearing failure.
Should I be trying to 'teach my grandmother to suck eggs' I apologise but I do not think this point can be emphasised enough.


Post# 492645 , Reply# 18   1/30/2011 at 14:32 (2,942 days old) by limey ()        
Bearing failures and causes

Graham,
I have forwarded a booklet put out by SKF on the above subject to your email.
Regards


Post# 492807 , Reply# 19   1/31/2011 at 12:00 (2,942 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
The SEAL is most important


Most washers and auto water pumps have their water seals degrade first.

Then the seal leaks and water corrodes the 52100 ball bearing steel.

Then the bearing degrades way quicker since there is corrosion on the bearing races.


Having the new ball bearings installed with little injury is a good thing. If Goober the installer did use some tapping and force; this may or may not be an issue; because the force has to be above the some ratio of the static load rating. Plus the seal failure totally swamps the failure mode due to corrosion.

Once a water seal leaks; the L10 life in revolutions can be only 1/10,000 to 1/10th of the textbook L10 ball bearing life, the corrosion accelerates the fatigue failure by many many orders of magnitude. One has measured lives all over the map.

Thus besides the bearings being installed properly; the bigger thing to install properly is the water seal. Many are designed to "bare" against a shaft of a certain microinch of surface finish. If too rough it fails early; if to mirror like it can not seal too. If cut or nicked or if cocked it might no seal too.

A leaky seal is why most all washer and water pump bearings fail. The bearings never approach the design life.

Having the new ball bearings installed properly is like eating well to live long. A water seal leak is more like taking up skydiving, playing chicken with trains, eating unknown plants, and swimming with sharks, it can overide the eating well to live long.

In a commercial machine where uptime is most important, a stainless of ceramic ball bearing is used. The seal can leak and the bearing does not corrode as fast, one has more time to factor in repairs.



Post# 492810 , Reply# 20   1/31/2011 at 12:08 (2,942 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
weep hole

Some washers and water pumps have a weep hole. Thus if the seal leaks, a small tiny flow can at first not ruin the closest ball bearing.

In some old washer designs the area between the seal and first bearing has a weep hole. This in a rebuild can be clogged or not seen, or full of grease or crud.

When the bearings and seal are out, see if there is a weep hole and make sure it is not clogged.


Post# 492819 , Reply# 21   1/31/2011 at 13:13 (2,942 days old) by limey ()        
Bearing and Seal Failure

To 3beltwesty,
I agree with almost everything you say.
There are a few references 'on the web' where people state that their front load washers have suffered bearing failures with no apparent failure of the seal. Whilst I did not/do not own the machine where I have personal experience of this, it belonged to a relative. That is close enough for me to disagree with your statement that bearings never approach the design life.
SKF put out and interesting booklet on bearing failures and their causes. It can be viewed at: -
www.kamandirect.com/resources/201...


Post# 492869 , Reply# 22   1/31/2011 at 18:04 (2,941 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Many FL washing machine bearings are larger than an early 19


Here the FL machine bought in in 1976 became noisy about 1997 with twenty one years of usage. It ran until the front bearings cage broke in the summer of 2005. I rebuilt the machine in 2006. Its front 6205 bearing's cage broke. The balls are are not even round in that bearing. The water seal failed. The old rear 6205 bearing with 29 years of usage technically is worn out since it has more than 10 percent of its races with pits, but still works OK. These are a 25mm bore bearing.

Today some FL washers use 30 and 35mm bore ball bearings. When today somebodys FL washer that is 3 years old has a bearing go bad, it has to be seal. The bearing is larger in load capacity than of a 1965 Mustangs rear axle bearing.

There is a reason fisherman use bearing buddies; to lube the bearings. In trailers if one has them go under water to load a boat, the bearings often get wet and corrode like made. The same bearing if it never sees water can last a livetime. A dunked bearing can have one on the side of the road with a hot or ruined bearing and ruin ones fishing trip.

Here I have a 3 foot stack of bearing info catalogs, the classical Harris engineering textbook on load calculations and even the ultra ultra rare New Departure Hyatt hand written text book that was written in WW2 that is worth a bundle. I use to work in ball bearing spindle design with NMB, SKF, NDH, Kyocera, Fag, Koyo, etc on disc drives. I have a spectrum analyzer to measure the noise spectrum of bearings; and a whole collection of bearings. One gets different frequencies with inner. outer, ball and cage defects. I once turned down a job offer to work for NSK in Ann Arbor about 20 years ago. In Ceramic ball bearings. Kyocera had them 20 years ago in Japan

Most ball bearings are 52100 steel that corrodes with ease. The reason I mention the seal being the weak link is that ball bearing is only protected by that water seal.

The washer here that had one bearing fail totally after 29 years is bot even a sealed bearing; it is a shielded one.

If one looks at most modern non Miele FL washers; the spider is a light aluminum. It is a shot casting with gobs of surface area; ideal to corrode quickly. The web is full of early failures with these spiders corrodeing. That broken corroded shush/slurly of aluminum crud cannot be good for the water seals lip.

If one runs a few numbers for load, the failures of FL washers today is *WAY* shorter than a bearing prediction; ie in another universe. The ball bearings today in many FL washers is equal or larger than many of the ball bearings once used in a small car's rear axle back in the 1960's. The "small type" factory real axle ball bearings in a Ford Falcon or early Mustang are smaller than those larger ball bearings in a modern FL washer.

Today a car like the Camaro, a postal delivery truck have roller bearings on the rear axles.

It is good to disagree.

Besides a bad install; Here I have seen ball bearing failures due to arcing, missalignment, too high a preload, wrong clearance too. Even one hands can ruin the bearing surfaces. Mixing two types of grease types can be a big no no too.

Many liquids that enter a bearing can cause corrosion. A washing machine is a tuff environment.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 492967 , Reply# 23   2/1/2011 at 02:25 (2,941 days old) by limey ()        
Bearings

To 3beltwesty
Thank you for a very informative post.
I believe you will find, should you ever be able to obtain the relevant details, that the out of balance loads in FL washers are greater than the much reduced out of balance load in vehicle wheels, added to which the fulcrum for a FL washer is much further from theffective point of the load than for a single tire automobile wheel. Just think of the very small balance weights added to vehicle wheels to 'balance' them and then think if the weight of a soaking wet woolen sock much further from the fulcrum than the lead balance weight. In my view a very large difference.
You are correct, I believe, the aluminum 'crud' from the corrosion process contains alumium oxide, the same very hard, abrasive material that is the 'grit' in sandpaper.
Around 20+ years ago I witnessed a demonstration of a machine which measured, and recorded, the noise level from bearings. The purpose was to take readings at regular intervals to determine at what point the 'noise level' reached a level at which time bearing renewal was required. As you say this allowed for better planned maintainence, rather than just renewal after so many running hours.
I thought it was a good idea, however it did not 'catch on'. Likely the bean counters did not like paying for the equipment in the first place and then paying someone to take the readings and monitor the results.
A good technician with a stethascope can achieve the same thing but the bearing housing has to be accessible to the stethascope whilst running, and the bearings have to be checked regularly by the same technician, although even a poor technician should be able to determine when the bearings are getting 'square'.


Post# 495996 , Reply# 24   2/12/2011 at 16:32 (2,929 days old) by grahamW ()        
Spider removal

Does anyone have any hints on removing the cast spider on a Miele? Given the rust path from the bearing on the back of the outer tub (see photo), I'd say the seal leaked and the bearing failed. I've finally pulled the drum and removed the pulley but the outer bearing (#9 in diag) above doesn't have anything to grab and I'm not sure I can pull the spider without removing the outer bearing and the snap-ring (#8 in diag).

I have a 2 or 3 jaw gear puller and a torch to heat the cast spider if needed...



Post# 496083 , Reply# 25   2/12/2011 at 22:06 (2,929 days old) by grahamW ()        
2nd thought

My previous msg didn't make any sense... In retrospect, I think a gear puller on the cast spider with a little heat should get the spider+bearings free of the shaft.

Post# 496458 , Reply# 26   2/14/2011 at 17:55 (2,927 days old) by bewitched (Italy)        
W 918 = W1918

Hi! I've changed bearings on my W918 Miele. I think W 918 is the same as your W1918.
Changing bearings is a hard work because of the weight of the tub assembly but it's not complicated. You need to remove the motor and the black iron cast from the tub. All four arms have two bolts each you have to remove. Then you'll need an extractor to separate the drum shaft from the bearings that are located inside the black iron cast. Once you have separated the two pieces you'll have to remove the two bearings fom the black iron cast and insert the two new ones. This is the worst and more difficult task you have to perform. You usually will notice that is just one bearing that failed, usually the one nearest to the tub. This generally fails because the round black seal is broken. No way the spider attached to the drum is corroded or damaged! Clean very well the axle from rust residues and also clean well the part where the black seal goes . I also got a lubricant grease along with the spare kit. I used it to make easier reinsert the drum shaft in the bearing assembly. Remember the two bearings are not the same.
I got all kit for around 100 euro. You can easily purchase it on ebay german.


Post# 496490 , Reply# 27   2/14/2011 at 21:45 (2,927 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Penetrating stuff to try to make the bearings easier to remo


Here in the usa Items that are stuck together are helped with:

PB Nutblaster or

Kroil.


Google these two products.


Post Katrina I freed up many many "basket case" items and mechanisms that in some cases broke the pullers!

Kroil is better than PB Nutblaster but harder to find in some places.


Both are worlds better than liquid wrench or WD40.


Post# 496705 , Reply# 28   2/15/2011 at 18:21 (2,926 days old) by Pingmeep ()        
Homemade penetrating oil

Kroil is easily twice as good as PB Nutblaster and worth it. If all else fails and you are eying the awful WD40 you could try 1:1 mix of automatic transmission fluid and acetone. It worked really well for me on a 1980 Miele with seized bearings and rusted bolts that had sat exposed to the elements for three or four winters.

Post# 496955 , Reply# 29   2/16/2011 at 20:24 (2,925 days old) by grahamW ()        
A good soak

Some progress... I only had 30 minutes tonight but after a long soak in some penetrating oil, I managed to pull the cast spider with a 2-jaw gear puller before my daughter woke again. An obvious drum seal failure leading to water entering both the inner and outer bearings. I've not pulled either bearing yet.

Here's a photo of the inner bearing (#7 in above diagram):


Post# 497145 , Reply# 30   2/17/2011 at 13:49 (2,924 days old) by vacfanatic ()        
Photos of Spider Please!

GrahamW,

When you get this torn apart further, can you please take some photos of the Miele Spider on the drum? I'm curious to see if it is much different than just a couple of photos I have found online of other Miele Spiders.

I know it would be appreciated by about 75% of this group if you could take a few photos of it!

Thank you,
Andrew


Post# 497255 , Reply# 31   2/17/2011 at 21:10 (2,924 days old) by grahamW ()        
One bearing out

Andrew, can you be more specific about what photo you would like? I have taken quite a few shots as I progress. Eg: Here's the spider with the outer bearing (#9 in diagram above):

It was relatively easy to pull.




Post# 497256 , Reply# 32   2/17/2011 at 21:13 (2,924 days old) by grahamW ()        
The inner bearing...

The inner bearing, however, is proving more difficult. And, yes, that is a piece of the outer race...

Post# 497257 , Reply# 33   2/17/2011 at 21:18 (2,924 days old) by grahamW ()        
Here's what is left

No amount of Kroil seemed to help with this one. Here's a photo of the inner race... i.e. what is left of the inner drum bearing (#7 in the diagram above). I'll need to wait until tomorrow before I either use a torch to heat it before trying to get my puller on it. Worst case, I'll reach for the die cutter and see if I can't weaken it without hitting the shaft...

Post# 497267 , Reply# 34   2/17/2011 at 22:32 (2,924 days old) by Pingmeep ()        

After looking for similar problems with the W1918 I came across this thread on gardenweb. Sounds similar to your problem.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Pingmeep's LINK


Post# 497368 , Reply# 35   2/18/2011 at 08:44 (2,924 days old) by GrahamW ()        
Indeed

Indeed, a similar problem. However, I'm not sure I agree with the statement that:

"I had a tech out to look at the machine. He said there was a plate in back of the inner drum that had broken or cracked. Apparently, with the advent of the 19xx series, this part was cast from cheap "pot metal", making it both susceptible to failure and impossible to fix."

I've seen nothing resembling "pot metal" in my W1918 or my W1903. Other than some dried water+bearing grease residue, the cast spider appears to be in perfect shape. In my case, it is most certainly the seal that has failed which lead to the inner bearing failing as shown in the photos above. In my opinion, the time to fix the bearing was way before, "the knocking became a deafening banging and white smoke appeared in the drum during spin."

As far as this being a 10 hr repair, that is probably a bit conservative but not too far off. It has taken me:
Disassembly - 1hr
Hoisting the drum - 1hr (including the time it took me to find and setup my come-along)
Remove the cast spider - 1hr (including 1 failed attempt but not including 24hrs of soaking with Kroil)
Removing the bearings from spider/shaft - 1hr (note that the inner race is not off yet)



Post# 497381 , Reply# 36   2/18/2011 at 09:38 (2,924 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

A cutter/ball/saw blade on a dremel tool or die grinder can be used to grind away the inner race. An added thing is that vibration of using the tool helps remove the inner race too. Often on bearings I have had the inner race loosen up and be free before one has really cut through the race. One can too just use the die/tool to get a better surface on the race to pull too.

I would try cleaning off that rusty crud and trying Kroil again. Then try a slight heating of just the inner race with a small torch too.


Post# 497411 , Reply# 37   2/18/2011 at 12:42 (2,924 days old) by vacfanatic ()        
Spiders

Here are a couple of photos of the spider that is actualy attached to the drum itself. There is also the cast X piece that you already took off from the back of the drum. I'm curious to see what your inner tub's spider is made of.

Post# 497412 , Reply# 38   2/18/2011 at 12:43 (2,924 days old) by vacfanatic ()        




Post# 497416 , Reply# 39   2/18/2011 at 13:13 (2,924 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

What is the white stuff that that is one the lower image's drum spider by the shaft?

Can you post a higher res image of spider?

I want to see if if is a casting or forging, or machined.


Post# 497432 , Reply# 40   2/18/2011 at 14:29 (2,923 days old) by GrahamW ()        

Thanks for posting the above photos. Perhaps I do have a pug metal casting of some sort on the inner tub. We'll see what it looks like when I finally get the bearing race is free and I'll snap a few good photos of it. Given the exploded diagram and the parts list I have, I don't believe that piece is separately available from the drum.

Post# 497488 , Reply# 41   2/18/2011 at 19:11 (2,923 days old) by vacfanatic ()        
Photos

The photos above I posted are the only resolution I have unfortunately - I found them a while back on a google search. I did email Miele about what my W3033's spider was made from and they advised the following. I don't know if it's the same solid spider in the above photos or not, but I do know it bolts on the same way - a rod clear through each of the drum baffles and a nut on the front of the tub can be seen if you peel back the boot a bit. I would imagine it's the same spider design, since my W3033 is the Generation 2000 chassis design.

In 20 years when mine needs new bearings I'll post photos LOL

Per Miele:

"The bearings for the W 3033 are made of hardened steel. The spider which is on the back of the inner drum is made of a cast metal combination of aluminium and magnesium."

Andrew


Post# 497491 , Reply# 42   2/18/2011 at 19:33 (2,923 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Before using a flamed torch I use a hairdryer; or better yet a heat gun for electrical tubing shrinking. Time is your friend in the matter too. ie hide the hammer for awhile and just wicking stuff and heat so the shaft is not ruined in hasty event. If that race is heated with a heat gun it often will open up a tiny gap and the PB nutblaster or Kroil can get down deeper.

If one grabs the inner race with a wrench and tries to turn it a tad; I assume the shaft is in the spider so this might not be a great thing to do. Sometimes in machine work we use to wrap the shaft in rubber then key it in lathes locked chuck to hold the shaft still while a bearing race was tired to be turned and pulled off.


Post# 497508 , Reply# 43   2/18/2011 at 22:32 (2,923 days old) by grahamW ()        
Not yet

"If one grabs the inner race with a wrench and tries to turn it a tad; I assume the shaft is in the spider so this might not be a great thing to do. Sometimes in machine work we use to wrap the shaft in rubber then key it in lathes locked chuck to hold the shaft still while a bearing race was tired to be turned and pulled off."

Miele didn't cheap out on these bearings... After spending an hour, I have 3 deep vertical cuts in the inner race but I'm no further ahead. Tried the puller hoping it would shear apart but no luck. Will try again tomorrow night once the kids are in bed.

I do wish I had a better option to hold the shaft when I tighten down the puller or, as you say, a pipe wrench on the race. A 4-jaw lathe chuck might work if the shaft didn't have an awkward, 100 lb stainless drum assembly attached to it ;)


Post# 497509 , Reply# 44   2/18/2011 at 22:57 (2,923 days old) by vacfanatic ()        
Dynomite

A stick of TNT might be your next best option :) Keep at it, it'll come apart eventually. Might try a dremel to weaken that race until it finally breaks off. Would be much easier than trying to use anything else that I can think of.

Can you take the front of the outer drum off, and take the drum / spider out of the outer tub? it might give you more room to work on pulling that stubborn bearing off the shaft, and a lot less weight to muscle around with while trying to.


Post# 497522 , Reply# 45   2/19/2011 at 01:47 (2,923 days old) by limey ()        
White Deposits On Spider

I too would be interested to know what the ‘white stuff’ at the centre of the spider is. I asked the same question on another thread on this site but received no response. I suspect it is products of corrosion between the aluminium of the spider hub and the alkaline laundry products used. As I have stated before even the fastest spin will not get rid of the ‘water’ in this area and this ‘water’ will evaporate until the concentration of the ‘laundry aids’ remaining reaches a level where corrosion occurs.

Post# 497757 , Reply# 46   2/19/2011 at 19:12 (2,922 days old) by grahamW ()        

It's appart. I decided to remove the inner drum to as I really didn't have clearance to cut the bearing race with the stainless tub so close. I needed to use a pair of shears and cut away the spring seal (# 4 in the diagram) so I could push the shaft through the tub. In the end, I basically needed to split the race to get it off. It took an hour and a half to separate the drum and cut the race but I was careful enough not to hit the shaft so everything looks ok. I'll obviously need new seals, spring clip and bearings to rebuild it. Some photos in the posts that follow.


Post# 497759 , Reply# 47   2/19/2011 at 19:15 (2,922 days old) by grahamW ()        
Another photo

Here's the bearing which shows the swiss-cheese groove I needed to make. A few light hammer taps with a punch and it was free.

Post# 497760 , Reply# 48   2/19/2011 at 19:17 (2,922 days old) by grahamW ()        

I'll clean up the inner drum and post a few better photos of the spider but here's what it looked like when I pulled it.


Post# 497761 , Reply# 49   2/19/2011 at 19:18 (2,922 days old) by grahamW ()        

A close-up of the scaly, white residue:


Post# 497763 , Reply# 50   2/19/2011 at 19:23 (2,922 days old) by grahamW ()        

Here's a final photo showing the shaft where the troubled, inner bearing was:



Post# 497766 , Reply# 51   2/19/2011 at 19:35 (2,922 days old) by limey ()        
Seal Landing

I hate to say it but it looks like the brass sleeve for the seal landing is grooved in a couple of places. I doubt that it is supposed to be like that.

As for the deposit on the drum that does not look like the products of corrosion to me. Additionally, it appears that it is the same sort of deposit on the spider. It will be interesting to see what the spider looks like when it is cleaned up.

Thanks, I really appreciate the chance to view the photographs.


Post# 497779 , Reply# 52   2/19/2011 at 20:41 (2,922 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Seal landing

On the old fl westinghouse the feature on the shaft that contacts the seal is brass and the shaft is replaceable since the 3 belt only turns one way. Ie the shaft is screwed into the drum. One units that rotate both ways the shaft may not be replaceable. The seals mating surface has to be smooth but often not mirror smooth. Often a worn surface will work if touched up with 400 or 600 paper rotated like shaft rotation. A line on the old shaft is normal. The pickle is if it still is larger than the new seal. Limeys concern is good. Good to see you got the inner race off. You can use stainless steel ball bearings too. I did this with a recent rebuild. Ss ball bearings have a lessor rating maybe 80 to 90 percent of 52100 ball bearing steel. But are more robust for corrosion. The 6205 bb here are used in snow mobiles in stainless thus not too expensive

Post# 497785 , Reply# 53   2/19/2011 at 21:10 (2,922 days old) by grahamW ()        

"I hate to say it but it looks like the brass sleeve for the seal landing is grooved in a couple of places. I doubt that it is supposed to be like that."

I noticed that in the photo as well, but didn't see it when I was in the garage. It might be the camera flash catching the light a little but I take a good look tomorrow when I get a chance to clean it up. From the diagram way up in this thread, I'm wondering if that is part #5? I think I'll put in a call to Miele next week and see if I can talk to someone knowledgable about these machines to confirm what exactly needs to be done to get her working as she should.


Post# 497798 , Reply# 54   2/19/2011 at 21:57 (2,922 days old) by vacfanatic ()        
Thanks!

Really appreciate the close up photos of the drum spider and shaft. I'd say that the spider looks to be in excellent condition vs some I've seen on other washers that totally crumble from corrosion.

I plan to do a yearly descaling of my Miele and I do monthly maintenance washes to hopefully prevent any buildup on the drum spider. I wonder if possibly that buildup gets in behind the drum seal and causes it to leak into the drum bearings?

Any idea of how many operating hours are on your machine? Not sure if there is a way to check on older Mieles, but mine has 897 hours as of tonight. The main bearings are rated to last at least 20,000 hours, so I'm right on track for 20 year life of this machine. I've had it just over a year now.

Andrew


Post# 497989 , Reply# 55   2/20/2011 at 14:32 (2,921 days old) by limey ()        
Scale

To grahamW
I have to agree the seal landing sleeve may be the item show as #5 in the diagram early in the thread. The question that springs to my mind is: “should it be replaceable how on earth are you supposed to be able to get it off the shaft of the spider”. I know it could be ‘turned off’ with a large enough lathe but how many appliance repair techs have that sort of equipment in the back of their van?
I have given the composition of the scale on the inner tub and the spider some more thought and I have come to the conclusion it is likely (not positive at this time) the re-deposition of dissolved salts from the tap water as it (the tap water) evaporates. Any thoughts on this anyone?


Post# 497992 , Reply# 56   2/20/2011 at 14:47 (2,921 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
".... Back of Trucks.."

launderess's profile picture
This isn't the sort of thing Miele will do in a person's home, not at least in the United States anyway.

Should Miele decide a bearing replacement is required, and will do the work at all, the washer must return to the corporate workshop in New Jersey.

Methinks the only way Miele would do this work is a warranty repair and who knows if even then. Probably would have been less bother simply to give the customer a new washer.

Cost of transporting the unit to and from NJ is about $1500 USD, then one would have to add the costs of parts and labour. When all is said and done you are probably looking at near or over 2500 to 3000 USD.

Being as this may, there seems to be quite allot of bearing replacement work done on all models of front loaders in Europe, even as a DIY project. To be fair those on that side of the pond have had >thirty years of front loaders as the main washing machine. So it is very likely many repairmen have the tools "in back of their truck" or perhaps their own workshop for the job.


Post# 498035 , Reply# 57   2/20/2011 at 19:17 (2,921 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

With the new 1976 Westinghouse Front load washer bought in 1976, its 6205 bearings started to get noisy about say roughly 2000 ish; ie 24 years of usage. The machine still was used with noisy bearing noise until the one closest to the water seal had it's cage break about a month before Katrina in 2005. The machine actually still would wash but sounded like a wild mess in the spin cycle. If one had to one could wash and rinse and use the clothes line.

The back/rear 6205 ball bearing technically is shot; it has more than the classical 10 percent area on its bearing races pitted. Still that bearing in the rear really was never all rusted either, and really could if one had to be reused if one was on a desert island. The bearings from 1976 are from Japan; NTN bearings.


Thus from a ball bearings purists standpoint one got 24 years until one got bearing noise, and 29 years before an actual failure of the products purpose due to ONE out of two bearings.

"failure" is often based on Harris/Skf's criteria of 10 percent pitting by surface area of the races.

"failure" too can be defined when the device no longer works as designed; like the 29 years and then the front bearings cage started to come apart and some of the balls were not equally spaced.

"failure" can be too by just noise and customers complain. Often a ball bearing can go 10 times longer with being noisy.

The washer is different; the ball bearings once the water seal fails dies 100 time quicker once exposed to open water and soap.

Thus classical ball bearing life almost never gets hit with a washer; the leaky seal cuts it short by 10 to 200 times. The primary failure is corrosion ude to the seal leaking.


Its is like if some health food freaks who never smoked or drinked wanted to live to be 120; but all take up skydiving, playing with sharks; playing in the freeway; going off to war zones without helmets; ie many die much sooner than the "planned 120 years".

The seal's LIFE really is the key; when it fails the ball bearings die radically sooner.

If the seal still is smaller than the shafts "seal surface" the seal can still work. IF the seals matings surface is too rough the new seal will fail quicker; the seals "lips" are worn off. Thus the seal's mating surface really has to be touched up, smoothed. This might be a lost art, eons ago folks rebuilt water pumps in cars and it was super common; yea! in the usa 6 volt car era! :)

I would not even try to get the shaft off or think about it until I had an actual NEW seal to test the shafts seal surface.


Post# 498040 , Reply# 58   2/20/2011 at 19:35 (2,921 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
What is the material made of that the Miele Seal mates with?


Here are the two 6205 bearings on a 1976 Westy FL washer's shaft.

The water seal bares/mates with the brass feature on the steel shaft 5303261165.

The brass feature is that different colored area at the left of the NEW left 6205 ball bearing.

The ball bearing at the right is the original ball bearing from 1976 that came out of the unit in 2005 and still functioned 29 years later. That is the rear bearing. It has a less harsh life that the front guy. It is farther from the water, it has a lessor load too. it is pampered and is not in a war zone like the ball bearing by the water seal

This actual shaft with its scores on its brass feature was in the unit again from 2006 to 2010 this fall and the new seal of 2006 did not leak. This shaft is not being replaced today; not due to the seal area; but the wear to the right of the right bearing; where the potato pulleys roller bearing mates.

The link shows how the shaft is worn.

***Graham; It is not clear if you Miele's seal "bares" against steel; or is it a brass feature that is all dirty.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 498049 , Reply# 59   2/20/2011 at 20:20 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        
Steel

Poor lighting in the garage have yielded a few misconceptions:
- those groves are machined into the shaft
- there is no brass collet, just the steel shaft

With the above cleared up, after a bit of cleaning I can understand where some of the concerns regarding the spider casting are coming from. I'm going to post a few photos in sequence...

Recall, here is what I started with:


Post# 498050 , Reply# 60   2/20/2011 at 20:20 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

A laundry tub, in a laundry tub...



Post# 498051 , Reply# 61   2/20/2011 at 20:22 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

After the first pass... the rust appears.



Post# 498052 , Reply# 62   2/20/2011 at 20:23 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

I decided at this point, to remove the spider (3 bolts running the length of the drum, inside the paddles). After some more scrubbing:



Post# 498054 , Reply# 63   2/20/2011 at 20:26 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

A few close-ups of the rust spots:

This photo also shows the bottom of the shaft where the seal would sit. At the top of the photo, you can see a bit of corrosion where the inner drum bearing was.



Post# 498056 , Reply# 64   2/20/2011 at 20:27 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

Top view of the large rust spot, shown on the left above:


Post# 498058 , Reply# 65   2/20/2011 at 20:32 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

Here's the other side of the spider/shaft. Again, you can see the bottom of the shaft (note, there is no discolouration. It is just the reflection of the rust patches) along with the ring of corrosion just below where the inner drum bearing was.

Post# 498059 , Reply# 66   2/20/2011 at 20:33 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

The back-side of the spider has only a little rust.

Post# 498060 , Reply# 67   2/20/2011 at 20:39 (2,921 days old) by vacfanatic ()        
Wow

I would have to say the condition of the spider for the age of the washer is nothing short of remarkable. Even the couple of rust spots are clearly only surface deep, and I doubt impact the structural design in any way.

How old is this washer, and how many loads does it see in an average week?

Also, can you tell us what cleaner (CLR, Lime Away, etc) you used to remove the white caked on buildup on the back of the drum and on the spider?

I'm doing a maintenance wash in my Miele as I speak - this makes me feel much better about seeing a Generation 2000 chassis having the solid spider as I suspected. Here is a photo of a crumbling spider after only about 5 years of use on a non-Miele ;-)

Andrew


Post# 498062 , Reply# 68   2/20/2011 at 20:42 (2,921 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Graham;

Thanks for the images!

***My old shaft's wear in it's brass seal surface looked machined too; machined by the water seals lips! :)


ie the wear machined a goove exactly where the seals lip is!

Thus that is why limey and me here and others saw those groove and assumed they are wear features. If the groove lines up with the; think possible seal wear too.

The Miele W1918 is a 24" frame machine; thus that drum must me about 19 to 20" in diameter? The 1976 westy 27" frame drum is 22" diameter. that must be a 24" sink?

Your spider looks in decent shape. To survive corrosion items should be thick.

Please post some images of the spider when it is all cleaned up; I think all of us with hokey new disposable spiders want to look at the Miele!

I wonder what metal it is made of; and it cast, forged or machined out of bar stick via cnc mill.

The drum from my 1976 westy had scum like stuff that was like bathtub ring crud that came off with slight acid based tub cleaner!

I wonder if the spider is isolated from the drum too. Ie can you "ohm it out" with an ohmmeter to educate us too!


Post# 498065 , Reply# 69   2/20/2011 at 20:49 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

A final photo, showing the stamp on the cast spider.

I would very much appreciate input from everyone as to whether the machine is worth rebuilding and whether it would be reliable as a primary machine afterwards.

I originally purchased the W1918 (knowing something had failed) for $50 with the intention of swapping the leaking door seal and electronics (delay/count-down timer) into my perfectly functional W1903. Along the way, I figured I may as well figure out exactly what was wrong with the W1918 and decide if it is worth fixing (I would then use the W1903 as a 'functioning' parts spare). I may pull the top off my W1903 and inspect the rear of the drum with a mirror/light to see if there is a similar rust/grease stain before deciding what to do next. The W1903 certainly has no bearing play/noise compared with what I felt on the W1918.

As for whether this is a cost-effective repair for an out-of-warranty Miele machine. A 10hr budget seems like a pretty reasonable estimate given what I've encountered. I agree this isn't the sort of repair that a tech is going to do in a house call.


Post# 498070 , Reply# 70   2/20/2011 at 21:00 (2,921 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Spider looks great



The Miele spider is better than that space age thin spider; better since it is thick and dumb.

That is why cannon balls and cannons last in the ocean since 1500 and aluminum foil lasts days here in salt water.

The whole concept of the space age cad designed spider with thin webs actually has gobs of surface area and little thickness; a great combo for a thing to die due to corrosion. It is a great design for something to dissolve quickly; ie maker the product fail.

None of his is rocket science; it was understood a few thousand years ago. This that are big in cross section last longer, whether a nail or a fence post 4000 years ago.

Just the shaft alone was been about 155 bucks for eons for my 1976 westy; recently I got one for only 40 bucks.

I bet the Miele spider/shaft assembly is at least 250 bucks or more

Is the spider steel or aluminum?

Steel weighs about 0.28 lbs per cubic inch; alumimum about 0.1 ish.


Post# 498074 , Reply# 71   2/20/2011 at 21:10 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

I was told by the fellow who sold it, that the machine was used more-or-less daily for a family of 5 and I believe he said it was 8 or 9 years old. I doubt it ever saw a citric-acid wash cycle.

As for the cleaner, I started with plain white vinegar when the spider was still attached to the drum and switched to diluted CLR on the spider. Anything more acidic than vinegar will make a mess of cheaper stainless in my experience. I followed with a dilute ammonia wash.

The scaling, was most certinaly lime with whatever detergent salts wanted to linger. Lake Ontario water is considered 'moderate' in terms of water hardness and city water averages at 120 milligram/litre or 8.4 grains/imperial gallon.

The sink is a 21" wide. The inner drum is 19 1/2" in diameter. The outer drum is 22" (top-bottom) and 21" (wide). The W1918/W1903 are the Miele 5kg series, and have a frame width of about 23 1/2".


Post# 498080 , Reply# 72   2/20/2011 at 21:20 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

"Is the spider steel or aluminum?"

It's pretty heavy and definitely cast. It's also magnetic which, with the rust indicates, at least some ferrous material. As for whether it is

I don't even want to guess what a shaft/spider would cost from Miele.

"I wonder if the spider is isolated from the drum too. Ie can you "ohm it out" with an ohmmeter to educate us too!"

I cannot imagine it could be as it the stainless inner drum is bolted directly to the cast spider. There does appear to be a grounding wire, bolted to the drum weights (# 19/20 in the diagram).


Post# 498094 , Reply# 73   2/20/2011 at 21:38 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

3beltwesty, here's another photo of that area. It doesn't look like a crack in person. In person, it looks like an imperfect weld bead going all around the top/bottom edge of the spider.

Post# 498097 , Reply# 74   2/20/2011 at 21:39 (2,921 days old) by grahamW ()        

Another of the spider.

Post# 498106 , Reply# 75   2/20/2011 at 22:06 (2,921 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        

nice spider!-no corrosion problems there,almost looks like forged steel the
way the shaft is welded on.Could be "cast"steel also.Looks like the seal
sleeve is replacable too,real quality.


Post# 498141 , Reply# 76   2/21/2011 at 02:58 (2,921 days old) by limey ()        
Spider Defects?

Now I am doing an awful lot of guessing here.
1. The seal landing looks like stainless steel. If it were mild steel like the shaft it would have corroded where it is in contact with the water.
2. I agree with 3beltwesty the grooves in the landing sleeve are likely made by the lips of the seal. Looks like a 3 lip seal.
3. The black ‘rubber’ plug on the back of the spider is likely fitted to keep water from the end of the steel shaft. Looking at the distortion of this plug and the rust stains coming from its periphery I would guess that water has got behind the plug and the end of the mild steel shaft is corroded with the build up of corrosion products causing the distortion of the plug.
3a How did the water get behind the plug? Leakage by the plug is possible but I think it is more likely that there has been some leakage down the shaft after the seal failed and allowed water into the bearing housing.
3b The other possibility is that what ever seals the flange of the seal landing to the spider has failed and allowed water to seep in between the seal landing and the shaft. I do not think this has happened because there are no ‘rust stains’ on the spider coming from the periphery of the flange of the landing sleeve.
4. Looking closely at the photograph in post 498070 I agree with 3beltwesty, those look like cracks to me. This is further emphasised by the rust streaks emanating from them. To me this means that those fractures extend all the way to the ‘chamber’ behind the ‘rubber’ plug. Additionally look at the very fine lines running from the ends of the ‘wider black line’ these look like, and I emphasise ‘look like’ hairline cracks to me. An easy way to check is a dye penetrant check. A local workshop/machine shop should be able to help out there.
5. I am puzzled by Graham’s statement that the spider is magnetic. I cannot help wondering where on the spider he made that test


Post# 498172 , Reply# 77   2/21/2011 at 08:25 (2,921 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

By magnetic I think Graham means the Y shaped spider is iron based ferric; ie a cast steel or forging so a magnetic will stick to it.

With my 1976 Westy stamped and welded steel drum the steel shaft is screwed in the steel drum and has a left hand thread. The shaft has a 45 degree chamfer right by the brass seal surface; and there is a rubber 0-ring to prevent the threads from rusting. In the pre say 1988? westy's the drum only revolves one direction; thus a simple left hand thread works. In the roughly 1988 to 1993? models there is a torquer motor and one belt; the drum rotates CCW and CW via a controller and thus the shaft is now tacked in place. ie it is now part of the drum and not field replaceable.

On your Miele, does it only rotate one direction; or does it flop both CCW and CW? That shaft might be with screw threads and screwed in place like the 1940 to 1988 westys; or it might tack welded too after being screwed in if both CCW and CW rotations are used. OR it might be splined and pressed in too.

That black goop probably hides the end of the shaft is my guess too.

The sealing surface to me looks like a stainless steel cylinder that is heated and dropped in place.

Small cracks can be polished out to halt the progression of the crack. Sometimes a crack can be a fooler; ie one has the surface crack going to China through the entire part. As already mentioned an engine rebuild shop can magnaflux the part to see where and if there are cracks. Since it is an oddball job and no risk to them you cost might be little.

Old school had one welding up cracks on car engine heads, adding plugs; drilling holes to halt cracks too. A TIG welder add radically less heating than a Stick or arc or wire welder. The danger is the Y spider should not be fixed by a hot weld job; and ruined with drunk runout of the shaft no longer being perpendicular. Often is is better to just use the old part with cracks if minor.


Post# 498192 , Reply# 78   2/21/2011 at 09:48 (2,921 days old) by GrahamW ()        

If you look carefully, you can see that the cast surface appears very uniform (bead blasted?) except where pitted. The rust stains are located around each pitted area. For example, the photo below shows a pit mark near the middle of one arm. If you look at the photo in post, 498070 you can see two pitted areas at the centre of each rust patch. One on the arm, the other between the arms.

As for "where" the spider is magnetic, it is magnetic everywhere... from the tip of the Y to the centre.

It is actually a black plastic cover on the back of the spider which covers a solid mass of grey goop inside. There is no evidence of rust leaking from within the grey goop. Yes, it seems to cover the shaft end.

I'd like to hear from eddy1210's friend, the Miele tech. if it is at all possible.


Post# 498201 , Reply# 79   2/21/2011 at 10:26 (2,921 days old) by GrahamW ()        

Not sure a dye test will do much good given the surface characteristics and difference between the smooth and rough/pitted cast. My experience with such tests is very mixed even with clean and very uniform casts.

I've attempted to annotate two photos to show the pitted areas. I may take a dremel with a small grinding wheel into the joint where the molten metal and pitted surface meet.

The questions that remain:
1) would anyone here re-use this spider given what the photos show?
2) Would you expect it to give another 5-10 years of service?
3) Do I need to worry about those grooves in the seal landing?


Post# 498209 , Reply# 80   2/21/2011 at 11:01 (2,921 days old) by limey ()        
Spider Defects

OK Graham.
Thanks for the clarification above.
From what you say, and looking at the photograph in post 498192 it now seems that the spider is steel (cast or forged) [cast iron would be a real female dog to weld] and that it has been coated (galvanised) by the look of it. It also explains the rust streaks coming from the cracks. I am more convinced than ever now that they are cracks.
My theory about water getting behind the plug is now nullified.
My opinion now is that the spider is ‘toast’, trying to gouge out and weld up those fractures will likely ruin the alignment of the shaft to the spider and then the cost of recoating?
It appears that the spider is made up of four steel parts (cast or forged) welded together, 3 arms and a hub. I am not sure if the shaft, also of steel, is welded or shrunk into the hub at this stage, or even as 3beltwesty suggests, splined and then welded. I would be surprised if it were screwed and welded but at this stage it cannot be ruled out either.
As for Graham’s questions in post 498201
1. I would not reuse the spider.
2. I would not expect to get another 5 years from the spider. Added to which you will soon, in my opinion, start to get rust marks on your laundry, particularly the lighter items.
3. I think you do need to be concerned about the grooves in the seal landing. Assuming that the landing was initially flat (machining grooves like that and maintaining the tolerances for fit up so that the lips of the seal fitted exactly into those grooves would add, very significantly, to the cost of the machine [to no useful purpose in my view]) it would mean that a standard size seal would have less pressure on the lips to produce a seal than it was originally designed to exert.


Post# 498227 , Reply# 81   2/21/2011 at 12:42 (2,921 days old) by GrahamW ()        

limey, thanks for your input.

Post# 498251 , Reply# 82   2/21/2011 at 13:57 (2,920 days old) by GrahamW ()        

It might be worth noting that there's a youtube video showing the bearing change on a similar vintage machine and if you look carefully, you can see similar groves, low on the shaft (skip to 2:20 on the 1st video if you are short on time). I do wonder what that spider looks like and whether it is still in working order.

First part:




Second part:





Post# 498336 , Reply# 83   2/21/2011 at 17:42 (2,920 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
"Aunt Bea, Call Da Man" *LOL*

launderess's profile picture
As Andy Griffth would say.

Contact Miele tech support and explain what you've done so far and explain (or if they will allow send pictures), of what the spider and or other parts look like.

You need to find out from those whom know best what something should or should not look like. As with top loaders here, there is normally a reason parts come as a "set",and it takes some experience to know what old parts can stay or go.

FWIW, one can find Miele spiders off the shelf (as I've said often about other such parts), in the UK and EU. However at $235 British Pounds,(roughly 402 USD)cannot imagine what Miele USA will charge, that is if they will even sell you the part. Given it's size, shape and weight, shipping is going to be dear as well.

Another option, depending upon your language skills of course, is to post a query on one of the Yahoo or other "appliance" or "washer" groups in Germany or other parts of western Europe. You will probably find a few persons with experience in these matters,including perhaps former Miele employees and or trained servicemen.

Unlike North America where Miele has tight control over almost every aspect of sales, parts and service, on the other side of the pond things are different.


Post# 498363 , Reply# 84   2/21/2011 at 18:59 (2,920 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        

spider looks to be in very good condition from what i can see-i'd replace
the seal sleeve and run it-looks like a real quality machine well worth the
repair effort.


Post# 498433 , Reply# 85   2/21/2011 at 22:26 (2,920 days old) by grahamW ()        

I received an e-mail asking why I thought the spider was welded together and asking what the texture/color of the underlying material was. I hope this one photo answers both questions.

Between these two spider arms, it almost looks like a touch-up weld or a start/end point with an accumulation of material which isn't quite adhered to the previous bead. Despite the appearance of rust, even a metal blob like the one in pink (with rust all around it) seems well adhered.


Post# 498480 , Reply# 86   2/22/2011 at 08:36 (2,920 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

More than one half of repair folks would reuse that old spider; but state the life might be less than expected.

They too would actually quote on the replacement cost of the new spider too; so you as a customer are in the decision loop. Ie do you want to pay say 400 ? bucks more for a new spider?

Jets are placed back in service all the time with cracks; the issue is one replaces before safety is an issue.


Post# 498573 , Reply# 87   2/22/2011 at 16:16 (2,919 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Maybe. OTHO Maybe Not.

launderess's profile picture
Bearing replacement on front loading washers on the other side of the pond are jobs some repair persons love, others hate.

There is a reason why so many parts for this sort of job are available DIY, just the same as seal replacement kits for top loaders here; for the amount of work involved versus price it often does not pay for a service call.

Even under warranty (usually the only way most will bother), a repair is alloted a certain amount of time. This can be divided into sessions, say "X" to diagnose, "X" to strip down, "X" to replace/repair, and finally "X" to put everything back together...


Washer makers or whomever is paying for the warranty call, will allot an experienced service person (and his helpers if required) usually only one to two hours for "bearing replacement". If upon getting the washer apart things are more than what was supposed (bent spindle, spider, etc), then things will get interesting.

Even if the bearings have gone, and or were causing the original complaint, if other problems are found that if not addressed would simply wear out the replacment parts again quite soon, a choice has to be made. Either pay for the additonal parts and or labour, or scrap the whole idea and buy new.

If one is paying for the service call out of pocket, it probably will run >500 USD excluding parts. With the entire job coming near either the cost of a "decent" new washer or darn close to a hefty down payment. Unlike the United States, front loaders of "average" quality do not cost an arm and leg in the UK/EU. This is why bearing replacments are most always DIY, warranty service calls. For the average person it simply does not pay.

Miele washers in particular are problem due to the rather properitary nature of the company. Unlike other brands where one part may work for several machines, Miele parts are only for their machines. Nor is the company terribly liberal with advice and such.

If the spider needs to go (and am not saying the one pictured above does not does not), and it simply is put back into service, what happens several months or a few years later? If the thing goes and or damages the new bearing/seals you are looking at another expensive service call.


Post# 498592 , Reply# 88   2/22/2011 at 17:53 (2,919 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Re Prices

RE
"Unlike the United States, front loaders of "average" quality do not cost an arm and leg in the UK/EU. This is why bearing replacments are most always DIY, warranty service calls. For the average person it simply does not pay.
"

When I was shopping for a "get be by" washer last fall to get by while I rebuilt my 1976 westy; I almost was going to buy the starter TL washer here.

At last Novembers super sales; a starter TL washer was about 239 ish dollars; the bottom FL washer 349 dollars.

Thus I ponder about ""Unlike the United States, front loaders of "average" quality do not cost an arm and leg in the UK/EU."

At the sale I bought my LG WM2501 HWA for 599 US dollars; one sale from 899. There was a non sale Maytag FL for about 495 too.

There were about roughly eight FL washers in this area on sale for less than 600 bucks us.

***Is this a lot of money compared to Europes average FL washers?

Average Joe and Jane in the USA who buy a 500 to 600 dollar FL washer and its spider breaks in 3 to 7 years will not rebuild it. They will get this giant estimate and thus either junk the machine; or repair it themselves.



Post# 498599 , Reply# 89   2/22/2011 at 18:24 (2,919 days old) by grahamW ()        

"Miele washers in particular are problem due to the rather properitary nature of the company. Unlike other brands where one part may work for several machines, Miele parts are only for their machines. Nor is the company terribly liberal with advice and such"

I've actually had a pretty good experience dealing with Miele Canada, especially with getting information. I simply explained that I have the tools and experience to do most repairs and they were quite forthcoming. They sent me a complete parts list and exploded diagrams for both my washer and dryer when I asked for them. I've written seeking their opinion regarding the spider and will post if I get a reply. As for their parts prices, they are high, but so is the initial cost of ownership. They are no worse than the average VW or MB dealership in my experience. In fact, working on my Miele laundry machines often reminds me of working on my German cars... You sometimes need to scratch your head to figure out how it comes apart but it is usually very simple and almost always well engineered.

The spider/shaft condition is a bit of a dissappointment for me as I was really hoping that putting a few $$$ into this machine would have it running for another decade. I hesitate to say it, but the material choice/design of the irreplacable collet has the smell of planned obsolescence which is something I'm not a fan of.


Post# 498607 , Reply# 90   2/22/2011 at 19:06 (2,919 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
seal collet

miele does not sell that collet as a seperate piece?

Post# 498611 , Reply# 91   2/22/2011 at 19:13 (2,919 days old) by grahamW ()        

"miele does not sell that collet as a seperate piece?"

It remains to be seen. The shaft and spider are neither shown in the exploded parts diagram nor described in the parts listing Miele sent me. The collet/seal landing may be shown as #5 in the diagram, but there is no description or part # for it.


Post# 498612 , Reply# 92   2/22/2011 at 19:14 (2,919 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Well, That Depends

launderess's profile picture
Upon what you consider the useful life of front loading washing machine.

Miele boasts (at least as far as their older models are concerned), some of the longest, if not the longest life span. While the oft used quote is "twenty years tested performance", what Miele actually means that under tested conditions (about two or three wash loads per day), a washer of a vintage period should last on average about twenty years.

However in your case, as probably many others whom have purchased used Miele units, the conditions of previous use are known. Constant over loading of the washer, use of wrong and or too much detergent, and or other forms of "abuse", would cause parts to wear out sooner than they should.

From what one has read on various European washer forums, lower final spin washers tend on balance to out last those with speeds >1200.

The 1900 series was Miele's first with spin speeds at 1600rpms. As noted upthread using high speed spin speeds with unbalanced loads more than one should, is going to have an effect on some parts.

My guess is somewhere in Germany at sometime, someone sat down and ran the numbers. How long should bearings, seals, shaft et al other parts last under "normal" condition, cost of repair (if parts go under warranty), expected duty life cycle, and other factors to reach a number for making part specs.



Post# 498672 , Reply# 93   2/23/2011 at 01:34 (2,919 days old) by sudsmaster (East of SF, West of Eden, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture
That scale is most likely limestone - the product of washing soda (sodium carbonate) combining with calcium and/or magnesium in the tap water AND in the dirt in the soil on the laundry and forming an insoluble precipitate.

One way to help prevent this sort of thing is to use a good non-precipitating water softener, such as STPP, with every load.

As for the spider - I'm wondering if it's cast magnetic stainless steel. That sort of alloy can be corroded, a bit, but nowhere near as quickly as a regular steel would get corroded.

When my Neptune had its three year mark rebuild, I got to see the spider. It's aluminum and rather beefy, but it had turned jet black with all the hot water loads, perhaps also due to the phosphates in the mix. The original spider had cracked (probably a mfg defect). It's been running fine with phosphates on the replacement spider for the past seven years.

As for pulling the bearing... I would suggest using a three-jaw puller next time (Pep Boys has a good one for about $50). Less chance of the bearing cocking and making the removal more difficult than it need be. And of course I'm sure you must have used a penetrant like PB Blast, which is great for freeing corroded fasteners etc.





Post# 498676 , Reply# 94   2/23/2011 at 03:30 (2,919 days old) by limey ()        
Spider Construction

Having seen Graham’s last photograph, in post 498433, I have to revise my idea of the number of pieces that constitute the spider. The hub and arms are obviously one piece, not the four I previously thought. The welding close to the edge of the hub appeared to run down the side of the arm, however the latest photograph clearly shows otherwise.
Graham’s notation that the area under the flange of the seal collar is machined leads me to believe that the attachment of the shaft to the hub is by a penetration weld (full or partial) that has then been machined to give a smooth landing for the collar and whatever seals it to the spider. The photograph in post 498059 also shows welding outside the line of the plug, and also extending over the natural line of spider. I have to ask myself why is there welding that far out from what would appear to be the normally expected diameter of the shaft. The only thing I can think of is a penetration weld (full or partial) to attach the shaft to the hub.
The point about the seal landing not being replaceable, with a manufacturer’s supplied spare, on its own, is well taken. The arrangement is the same for the Frigidaire (Electrolux) built machine shown in post 498060. You have to purchase the whole spider and drum assembly just to obtain a new seal landing, should you follow the manufacturer’s instructions.
Reading this thread and others I am led to believe that Miele have changed the material of their spiders from steel to an aluminium alloy.


Post# 498678 , Reply# 95   2/23/2011 at 04:28 (2,919 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Well I'm No Model But No One Disputes How I Wear Clothe

launderess's profile picture
*LOL*

Methinks the shaft does not come separately and is part of the inner drum as a unit. Thus one would need a new inner drum & the rear drum bearing assembly kits/clips, and so froth.

One says this because to our mind's eye how could the shaft, a part which literally supports the weight of the tub, especially when full of wet laundry, be "replaced" without making sure a new part was so affixed to the drum as to continue that function.

Far eaiser to do a repair by swapping out drums and replacing bearings/seals/clips, etc than pfaffing around trying to remove and replace an old shaft. I mean who is going to do the welding?


Post# 498706 , Reply# 96   2/23/2011 at 08:36 (2,919 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

My take as a Mechanical engineer is that shaft, seal sleeve and Y shafted steel Spider is one assembly when the unit is made; but it may or may not be an item one can purchase as a repair item.

You will have to ask them.

It may only be bundled with the stainless steel spin basket too. Thus one has to buy the "spin basket + shaft with seal surface + spider"

Unless you ask them you will never know.


Since item #11 just shows the spin basket and the spider and shaft is hidden behind it; my gut feeling is #11 might be : "spin basket + shaft with seal surface + spider".


Some front load Sears washers have one having to buy the spin basket too; when the spider breaks since they do not sell the spider/shafts by itself.

If a new seal's mating diameter is smaller than that shaft's sealing sleeves wear features; the new seal can still seal OK. On could make another sleeve out of brass and replace the old one if a machinist too.

If you were on a desert island of on a budget one would just use the old spider with new ball bearings and new seals and roll the dice. It might last 2 to 10 years too.

A purist with a oil well will have you replacing all worn stuff. A Sears basket & Spider assembly on some machines was sometimes 250 to 350 with shipping. A Meile would be more>

Contact Miele and find out what #11 costs and is it with the spider/shaft; or can one buy it as a separate item.

Launderess ; one Westinghouse FL washers made from about 1940 to 1988 the shaft is replaceable if worn. The shaft screws in with a left hand thread and is a replaceable item. The spin basket on these machines only turns one way; thus the thread is self locking. In more modern machines the trend is the shaft is part of a spider and not replaceable. Without looking at the Miele more it is not clear if it is splined, screwed in; or dropped in a counterbore/hole and welded. If I designed that part I would have the spider as one piece and the shaft made as another piece then them assembled/pressed and then welded. If the Miele rotates both CCW and CW the shaft is not screwed in; unless it is tack welded at the top.



Post# 499523 , Reply# 97   2/26/2011 at 19:46 (2,915 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Well I Guess We Will Never Know!

launderess's profile picture
*LOL*

Post# 500082 , Reply# 98   2/28/2011 at 13:21 (2,914 days old) by grahamW ()        
It's a parts machine

Miele Canada wants $200+ for the inner bearing and seal and another $75 for the outer bearing. The spider/drum is not available in Canada. I enquired about the condition of the spider in an e-mail (with pictures attached) but, Miele Canada does not provide technical support via e-mail. I've had no response from Miele, USA. I could get bearings for much less on ebay from Europe but I can't see the point given the likelihood of the the seal leaking due to the shaft wear and the prospect of rusty whites from the spider. There have actually been quite a few W19xx series machines showing up on kijiji/craigslist here and given their age + the cost of parts, I think it is fair to conclude these machines are nearing the end of their useful life for most people.

So, I'm going back to my original plan which was to swap the electronics/timer/controls (and anything else needed) from the W1918 and put it into my W1903 (which shows no signs of bearing trouble). The latter works fine, but the door seal is torn and leaks slightly. With these new smart-grid electric meters, my wife has been complaining that we needed a count-down/delay timer for the washer. That was the impetus for picking up the W1918 in the first place. If we limit the spin speed to 1200rpm, I hope it will last a few more years or at least until the kids are out of diapers. This will also leave me with a fair selection of used parts if I have any failures. The remainder of the W1918 will likely go for scrap which, by the sounds of it, is pretty much the only cost-effective thing you can do once the bearings go.

If there is anything else anyone would like a photo of, let me know.


Post# 500093 , Reply# 99   2/28/2011 at 14:21 (2,913 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

If one has to buy the seal via ; " Miele Canada wants $200+ for the inner bearing and seal" it means even if the outer bearing costs 30 via ebay one has 230 invested.

Unless one has a new seal; it too is difficult so so the margin left with a worn shaft seal feature.

In the USA the old 1976 westy mostly has its seal plus 2 bearings hawked in the 35 to 75 buck range. A few rare folks stock the seal only and it is about 15 bucks. In the past at times nobody carried the seal; and thus one was forced to by the set.

That seal alone in Europe is probably 10 to 20 bucks on some shelf; but one might go broke in trying to find one.

Thus I understand now how it is a parts machine only for you.


Post# 500153 , Reply# 100   2/28/2011 at 18:13 (2,913 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Am Sorry To Hear....

launderess's profile picture
By contractual obligations Miele USA will not render service, advice, sell parts to etc anyone in Canada, and vice versa for the Canadian Miele. I know this because once called the later about ordering some parts (back when the USA was high against the CDN $), and was promply told the lay of the land.

Was also told if you purchase a Miele appliance in either country and move across the border, don't look for warranty service etc in your new home, if anything. Again see above.

Miele Canada probably never had many of the spiders and or drums to begin with, and as the series went out of production, no further orders were placed. It could also be the parts were ordered as needed from Germany for a warranty repair (the only way Miele does this sort of work down here), and now with the series out of production they don't bother anymore.

Do feel your pain and am that sorry you went into all that effort only to be let down at the last moment.

Whilst ordering the spare bearings and seals from Europe *may* be doable, I'm with you on forgetting about the drum/spider. They are too large, heavy and would have to go probably via freight. This would not be inexpensive.



Post# 500223 , Reply# 101   3/1/2011 at 04:44 (2,913 days old) by limey ()        
And The Moral Of The Tale Appears To Be:

Don't buy a Miele in North America unless you really know what you may be letting yourself in for.

Post# 500240 , Reply# 102   3/1/2011 at 06:59 (2,913 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Er, Not Exactly

launderess's profile picture
I'd add "used" to that phrase, and even there it doesn't apply here.

OP stated upthread when he purchased the unit the seller explained there were some "issues" with the washer, but didn't know all of them. Many persons do not realise when bearings are going, and simply continue to use the washer until things get bad, such as rust and or other stains on laundry, and or the final certain "jet taking off" sound of bearings totally shot.

If the unit was new back in it's day and under warranty, Miele would have been contractually bound to either fix the problem, or offer a solution. Usually the later involves simply replacing the entire unit with a new one.



Post# 500260 , Reply# 103   3/1/2011 at 08:53 (2,913 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
How old is that Miele?



I thought your used Miele was a decade or more older; thus probably it served a decent lifetime?


Most folks do not have bearings replaced on a washing machine once a seal leaks and ruins them. Then replace the washer.

Here is a June 2010 link of a person who has owned a Miele W1918 for a decade:



CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 500320 , Reply# 104   3/1/2011 at 11:58 (2,913 days old) by grahamW ()        

To reiterate, I knew there was likely a bearing/mechanical issue given by how the drum felt. It was purchased for the door seal, electronics/timer (the front door seal alone was worth the price I paid for it) but I figured that I might as well disassemble it to see what the issue was. I have the tools so it cost me nothing but a few evenings out in the garage. If it was simply $200 worth of bearings to restore the machine to perfect condition, I honestly wouldn't have hesitated.

To put everything in perspective, I own a W1903 and T1515 which were purchased used for $150 a few years ago. I paid $50 for the machine and I now have a box of spare washer parts that should keep me going for a while. I also have a spare dryer belt and motor. I couldn't buy anything comparable on the market for $200 ;)

We do 1 load of laundry every evening (diapers at 95C every other night) and a couple 'catch-up' loads every weekend.

Many thanks to everyone who offered advice along the way and I hope the photos/descriptions provide insight to anyone else considering such a repair.


Post# 500324 , Reply# 105   3/1/2011 at 12:11 (2,913 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Grahm; when you pull the elctronics you might spot some 4 digit electrical data codes on IC chips etc and find a clue as the rough date the washer was made. ie a 9803 date is 3rd week of 1998

Post# 500364 , Reply# 106   3/1/2011 at 15:50 (2,912 days old) by bertrum ()        

Hi Graham,
You have done really well in removing the bearings carefully and not damaging the bearing collar. Also I would have given up when the bearings did not come out with the cross piece and got stuck on the shaft!.

Just seems you have done so much, to not complete the job now is to do yourself a big misfavour.

As for cost you can buy good quality bearings from anywhere at a tenth of the cost of getting them from Miele. The only genuuine Miele part I would insist upon is the bearing seal.

Go on finish the job!!


Post# 500509 , Reply# 107   3/2/2011 at 01:21 (2,912 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Parts Spare Machine

launderess's profile picture
Not a bad idea, considering the motor alone will run $1500 USD or more.

Am dreading what will happen when my 1070 gives up it's motor or bearings.

Lots of the 19XX series are being got shot of down this way as well. Methinks now that Miele offers larger sized washers,many consumers so inclinded feel they can trade up and not suffer "Miele Withdrawal".


Post# 500808 , Reply# 108   3/3/2011 at 00:51 (2,911 days old) by sudsmaster (East of SF, West of Eden, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture
I purchased a used 1918A off Craigslist for $200 about five years ago. They had two for sale at the time; I wish I had gotten both! It's an excellent machine, and has given me no problems. I generally run one load a week in it - whites, at 160F. It does a great job with them.

I also have three W1065 washers. Only two are hooked up, though, and sometimes I'll run one of them along with the 1918A if I have extra stuff. The main washing goes on with a Maytag Neptune 7500 - which can handle larger loads and more bulky items, and is fine for things like colors and perm press that don't need high temps or high spin speeds but do benefit from more drum space to "spread out" in. Shop duds with metal chips or dust on them go into one of the W1065's, so as to try to keep that stuff out of the regular laundry cycle. The W1065's were even cheaper. I got two for $50 each, and another one (rip off in comparison) for $200. One of the $50 ones also included a stacked dryer, also not hooked up yet.

Anyway, aside from bragging about my Miele collection, yes, you can find them used for $200 or less on Craigslist or other venues. As usual, caveat emptor, but for that kind of money you're not going to be too far in the hole if they don't work out.

I do wonder, however, if it's not possible to get the bearings from a place like Grainger or other supplier. My understanding is that bearings are standardized, and if you have the right dimensions/specs you can get a generic version that might do the trick. Don't know about the seal, though. The damage to the shaft is more problematic. I suppose if it's not too bad it could be turned and polished but that would require a rather large lathe.


Post# 501061 , Reply# 109   3/3/2011 at 20:28 (2,910 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Bearings are easy to find; it is the water SEAL that is the

.

Post# 501079 , Reply# 110   3/3/2011 at 21:43 (2,910 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
seal

depending on design,seal may or may not be easy to get from non-miele
sources-when i did a bearing job on a 1998 "frigilux"i was able to get a
suitable seal from my local "carquest"auto parts store,it had the same
double lip design as original-cost around $13.00
Frigilux used 6306 and 6307 bearings-plenty stout.


Post# 501112 , Reply# 111   3/3/2011 at 23:41 (2,910 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Washing machines have a special lip design

Seals in washing machines have a different lip angle than say a wheel bearing seal.

Post# 502935 , Reply# 112   3/10/2011 at 05:37 (2,904 days old) by limey ()        
Seals, Lip Angles

To 3beltwesty.
Re your post # 501112
You are one up on me there. Do you have any other details, websites with details etc.
Any info gratefully devoured.
Thanks


Post# 502956 , Reply# 113   3/10/2011 at 08:55 (2,904 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Seal design

.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 502966 , Reply# 114   3/10/2011 at 09:45 (2,904 days old) by limey ()        
Many Thanks

To 3beltwesty.
Great info. really apreciate that.


Post# 502983 , Reply# 115   3/10/2011 at 11:26 (2,904 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
MIELE SEAL AND BEARING FAILURE

combo52's profile picture

This has been an interesting disassembly and tear down. This problem was caused by a failure to use enough detergent for water conditions which caused the heavy mineral buildup which caused fast seal ware and resulted in bearing failure when water got past the seals. I have seen this hundreds of times. The solution is not so much periodic washer cleaning as just doing laundry properly in the first place. If you pay attention to what is going on in your washer or dishwasher it should never be necessary to run cleaners through them. Doing laundry improperly and then trying to clean up the mess periodically would be like not changing your cars oil for 50,000 miles at a time and trying to flush out the mess afterwards, the damage is already done its largely too late.


Post# 503025 , Reply# 116   3/10/2011 at 15:55 (2,903 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Combo52; the old 1976 Westy here was always used with a the minimum amount of detergent to do the job. One of out its two 6205 bearings had it's cage break in 2005; after 29 years of usage. It started to get noisier in the spin cycle about 1999; thus its seal was probably leaking then to cause the corrosion.

Thus with a machine that used the opposite of your claim of "This problem was caused by a failure to use enough detergent"; it ran 23 years until the seal leaked enough to cause a noisy spin cycle; and another 6 until one bearing cage failed; ie 29 years.

It is just you opinion that "failure to use enough detergent" causes seal failure.

Most folks use too much detergent ; and most washers at some have the seal fail.

Here the water is so soft that if another who vists and washes their clothes; one really needs no soap at all if they are from a hard water area.

All it takes is some sand to get on that seal and one can get massive wear.

I think the point you are trying to make is if one had really no detergent at ALL; one would have just water as a lubricant. Thus your theory is the seal wears less if one has enough soap, and the typical seal failure is thus due to lack of detergents?

The 1976 westy has a brass surface/ring where the seal contacts. Westinghouse used his design for over 50 years.


Post# 503030 , Reply# 117   3/10/2011 at 16:49 (2,903 days old) by limey ()        
Seal & Bearing Failure, Which Came First?

To COMBO52
I believe the photographs in this thread give sufficient evidence that there is a deposit on the spider and the centre area of the back of the drum. I further believe that using the dictionary definition of ‘mineral’ as ‘anything not animal or plant’ then these deposits are ‘mineral’. (Using that definition it could also be applied to the ’crud’ shown in the photographs of a machine I worked on shown in threads 29110 and 33198, therefore, my apologies for saying they were not ‘mineral’).
Now how have you deduced that the deposits in this Miele case are caused by too little detergent?
Bearing in mind your faulty diagnosis of seal failure leading to bearing failure in the case of the machine I worked on described in thread 29110. How have you deduced that in this Miele failure case the initial failure was by the seal and not the bearings? Quite honestly how can you be so adamant is beyond me.
I look forward to your comments


Post# 503033 , Reply# 118   3/10/2011 at 16:54 (2,903 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
your lucky to be able to have it fix

pierreandreply4's profile picture
your can consider yourself lucky to be able to have it fix as most repair comp today would say to buy a new machine 1 of my aunts had to have a tech come to fix something on her fridge is it was not for her recipe and warrenty papers the tech would of told her to buy a brand new fridge well i do hope that you will be able to have it fix all i can say is good luck

Post# 503035 , Reply# 119   3/10/2011 at 16:55 (2,903 days old) by limey ()        
Above Post

Sorry folks above post, #503030 should have been in thread 33198.

Post# 504512 , Reply# 120   3/16/2011 at 12:16 (2,898 days old) by grahamW ()        
A few final photos

As requested via e-mail, here are some better photos of the seals.

Post# 504514 , Reply# 121   3/16/2011 at 12:18 (2,898 days old) by grahamW ()        

The inside of the large shaft seal which actually sits on the cast cradle. No metal in this one.

Post# 504516 , Reply# 122   3/16/2011 at 12:21 (2,898 days old) by grahamW ()        

The shaft seal that I needed to cut away to get a better grip on the inner bearing. This one does have metal in it. You can see the two lips of the seal but there is also a ridge at the edge that doesn't photograph very well.

Post# 504517 , Reply# 123   3/16/2011 at 12:24 (2,898 days old) by grahamW ()        

Finally, this gives a cross-section of the seal above showing the internal metal. The overall shape of this seal is best seen in the overview photo (bottom left) but note that I needed to use aircraft shears to cut it and then bend it prior to separating the inner washing drum from the outer tub. It is quite mangled in these photos.

Post# 504541 , Reply# 124   3/16/2011 at 14:08 (2,898 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
just a tough????

pierreandreply4's profile picture
hello after seeing those pictures i don't know if its worth reparing if this would happen to my whirlpool duet washer i would buy a brand new or vintage top loading washer because i have my doubts that this is reparable as i think that this repair would actualy cost the price of a brand new washer?

Post# 504669 , Reply# 125   3/16/2011 at 23:48 (2,897 days old) by sudsmaster (East of SF, West of Eden, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture
There are seals, and then there are seals...

Not on topic, but I just got through replacing the valve guide seals on the V8 motor in my vintage van. Wow, what a pain of a job that was. That the motor was still in the vehicle meant a lot of contortions to get at the various parts. And getting the right tools and tools that could fit into the tight spaces. Once I got the technique mastered (which too about four tries), things went more smoothly. 16 valves, with two seals per valve.

At the end of the seal replacement I had to adjust the valves, hot, with the motor running. It was at that point that I realized why the motor had been running so poorly. The valves didn't have enough preload on the hydraulic adjusters, so they were barely opening. After I increased the preload to the ballpark where it should be, the van is running 100% better. And it doesn't stink at idle any more.

Back to the topic: STPP will do wonders for preventing mineral buildup inside any washer. That's because it doesn't form scale when it encounters minerals - instead it surrounds them and keeps them in solution, so they can be rinsed away. Really is a miracle chemical.


Post# 504696 , Reply# 126   3/17/2011 at 05:15 (2,897 days old) by limey ()        
A Note Of Thanks


To all who have contributed to this thread, particularly Graham. Thank You.
I have found it informative and enlightening.





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