Thread Number: 32913
Dishwasher: In what part of the cycle does yours regenerate it`s water softener ?
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Post# 495628   2/11/2011 at 06:05 (4,677 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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I`ve got a 7 years old PCB contolled Bosch and it does "it" right after the main wash on every 5th cycle. I appreciate how little salt it uses compared to my previous DW which regenerated at the beginning of each and every cycle, but I also find that my glasses get a haze of salt residue on every 5th cycle.

I think it would be much smarter to pump out the brine before the wash than in the middle of the cycle! So I was wondering how other DWs compare to the Bosch.


Post# 495642 , Reply# 1   2/11/2011 at 08:17 (4,677 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

The SMEG machine at my parents regenerates the resins before starting the main wash, but not all the times, it depends on what scale the softener is set.

Currently, with the machine used once a day everyday a kg of salt lasts around a month and a half (3/5 on the water softener)

The Indesit machine I have here in Bologna seems that the regeneration happens after the second water drain, during the rinse phase of the cycle.

With this machine, used 40 times a month, a kg of salt lasts less than one month, with the water softener set to medium (there only are +/o/- signs)


Post# 495649 , Reply# 2   2/11/2011 at 08:42 (4,677 days old) by NeptuneGuy27 (Baltimore,MD)        
Miele regeneration

My Miele regenerates at the beginning of every 10th cycle prior to the Pre-Rinse. With a water hardness of 7 grains per gallon and an average of about 4 loads per week, a box of salt will last me about 6 months.

Chris


Post# 495653 , Reply# 3   2/11/2011 at 09:18 (4,677 days old) by MikeKLondon ()        

I really do not know, how do you tell? I also have a question someone may be able to help with my Miele has started making a knocking as if the are is catching on something but I can see what I have tried removing all 3 arms and replacing them they all seem fine and spin OK but its still knocking

Post# 495665 , Reply# 4   2/11/2011 at 10:07 (4,677 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Our Siemens from 2006 also does "it" after the main wash. The water here is quite soft, so a box of salt (one kilo) last a good year. I think our AEG from 1999 regenerated before the pre-wash.

Alex


Post# 495677 , Reply# 5   2/11/2011 at 10:59 (4,677 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

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As someone who has never used a dishwasher with a water softener, I am intrigued by this conversation. I have lived in homes with whole house water softeners, and they would regenerate in the middle of the night, when water is generally not being used. If water was used during the regeneration, it would bypass the softener. The process would take about an hour or two.

How does the regeneration process in a dishwasher work? Does it keep the regeneration process water separate from the dishes?


Post# 495698 , Reply# 6   2/11/2011 at 12:06 (4,677 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Thanks for the responses guys, keep them coming !
Good to know there is still some choice of dishwashers on the market where it happens before the prewash.

"How do you tell ?"
It could be described like a purge but the recirculation pump is not engaged.
For instance the machine draws some water and then drains it immediately. Or if you hear water intake and the drainpump simuntaniously running.


Post# 495706 , Reply# 7   2/11/2011 at 12:35 (4,677 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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My AEG Íko Favorit 6060 regenerates every cycle it does before the prewash.

Post# 495711 , Reply# 8   2/11/2011 at 12:54 (4,677 days old) by nmassman44 (Brooksville Florida)        

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With my Miele its when it needs to regenerate. It has the sensor that adjusts the water with every fill. Its not set like some machines. Our water fluctuates from 7 to 10 and salt lasts a good long time in the machine. One thing I notice if I wash back to back loads it will regenerate before the prewash begins on the 2nd load. But if I wash a single load then it wont regenerate for some time. Having a water softener built into the dishwasher helps a great deal having to deal with the "phosphate free" detergents we have mandated here.

Post# 495723 , Reply# 9   2/11/2011 at 14:29 (4,677 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        
Can I really be sure?

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It seems that my Candy CD623UK dishwasher does it everytime after the last hot rinse... does that make sense? I think that it also does it just before starting the main wash after the prewash. I'm not sure anyway... I wish I could see what happens inside... stupid windowless appliance :-P

Post# 495754 , Reply# 10   2/11/2011 at 17:24 (4,677 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

My Miele Dw does it before the pre-wash if you are running a program cycle with one, or it will be at the beginning of the main wash if the program cycle you select does not have a pre-wash.

It has run 15 cycles, then regenerate for water hardness between 9 and 10, 10 cycles then regenerate for harness at 16, but this last time it went 6 cycles then did a regeneration but the hardness it is reporting was 21.    Today the hardness reported was 19. It reads the hardness during each fill so you don’t have to set any selector.  It might be using some type of sensor to determine how much calcium has built up in the resin, but I don’t know.  For some fills, in some cycles,  the DW directs a portion of the water around the softener(bypasses it)and this unsoftened water spills into the tub on the left side.  I think it does this so the water does not get too soft and cause glasses to etch. The dishwasher has a part named the "water inlet mixer" located on the left side of the machine which is about as tall as the dishwasher. This part has multiple connections to the electronics and this is the part that, following the directions from the electronics determines where the incoming water will go; to the salt reactivation reservoir, through the softener, or around the softener and into the left side of the tub. It also measures the water hardness before the water reaches the softener so that it knows how to mix hard and soft, and it measures how much water has entered the machine during each fill so that the machine knows how much water it has initially drawn for the fill. It may draw more water based on the size of the load, but it uses this initial amount as a starting point. Some cycles such as the "Normal" cycle start with more water than others. The water softener resin is located at the bottom of the inlet mixer and it is also connected to the electronics .

Normally when you turn the machine on the drain pump starts immediately and will run for a few seconds, then it will begin to take water for the fill.  When the softener regenerates as soon as you start the machine, the water starts flowing in while the drain pump runs.  It will take some water, stop the fill, take some more water, stop the fill, take some water, stop....  The drain pump will continue to run during the entire time.  I don’t know for sure but I think it is running the water through the salt container and then forcing it through the resin....and then it is being pumped down the drain.  None of this water touches the dishes.   The process lasts about 2 minutes, then everything will stop.  Then the pump comes back on and it is at the beginning of the pre-wash like usual.  My previous Miele used lights to indicate the part of the program cycle it was in and it had a light that said softener so you knew what was going on.  This newer one just says prewash or wash as if nothing special is going on but because I had a previous model I realized what was happening This one doesn't take as long to do it as the older one.




This post was last edited 02/11/2011 at 23:12
Post# 495865 , Reply# 11   2/12/2011 at 05:32 (4,676 days old) by nrones ()        
How can we know?

How can we know (see) when it regenerates salt? I have a Siemens DW and (currently) I don"t know how to see when it does it ;) Help please :D

Post# 495883 , Reply# 12   2/12/2011 at 07:43 (4,676 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Jerrod, I think your Miele uses its flow-meter to determine when to reactivate. It measures how many liters of water at x degrees have passed though the softener and reactivates accordingly.

nrones, just listen for unusual sounds - draining and filling during the cycle.

I have a video of our Bosch counter-top dishwasher regenerating on my YouTube channel but can't find it now since I'm writing this from my phone.


Post# 495895 , Reply# 13   2/12/2011 at 08:43 (4,676 days old) by hotpoint95622 (Powys)        
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My Zanussi DW927 regenerates after every main wash at the end of the drying stage.

Post# 495900 , Reply# 14   2/12/2011 at 09:05 (4,676 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Another Miele here... it will do it at the beginning of every few cycles, haven't counted or anything but noticed it every once in a while.  Will do a few minutes of draining/filling routines, then just gets on with the cycle as normal.

 

I live in a medium water area, and I haven't had to refill salt since I bought the dishwasher 3 months ago.

 

Jon


Post# 496553 , Reply# 15   2/15/2011 at 06:41 (4,673 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        
Does it keep the regeneration process water separate from th

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Sorry for answering late, just reread the whole thread, must have overseen it before.
I think theoretically it keeps the salt water seperate from the dishes because the DW is empty, well it has drained before it pumps out the brine.
But I suspect my Bosch that there is still too much salt water sitting in the sump when the intermediate rinse begins thus spoiling the load with a hazy film if there are only 2 rinses to come.
Not sure about it, but I believe there might be another less spectacular step involved into the regeneration process where the salt water just needs contact time with the resin.


Post# 497194 , Reply# 16   2/17/2011 at 16:21 (4,671 days old) by richardc1983 (Leeds, UK)        

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Not sure I understand this whole regeneration thing.

What does it need to do it for? My bosch table top does it after the main wash and it lasts about a minute or so.

I always thought it was to rinse the sump out of particles etc never thought was anything to do with the resin etc as I thought all water passing through the salt compartment regenerated it?

Can someone explain why it needs to do this?


Post# 497195 , Reply# 17   2/17/2011 at 16:28 (4,671 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
REGENERATION:

The incoming water is full of magnesium and calcium ions, they adhere to the resins and they get substituted by sodium ions that don't make up to water hardness and do not hinder washing performance.

Once the resins have saturated of calcium and magnesium ions they get flushed with salty water that removes them and puts back the sodium ions.

This is the "regeneration" of the resins.

If you want to know more I liked the proper article on Wikipedia for you!


CLICK HERE TO GO TO dj-gabriele's LINK


Post# 497197 , Reply# 18   2/17/2011 at 16:38 (4,671 days old) by richardc1983 (Leeds, UK)        

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Thank you DJ-Gabrielle.

So the mains water doesnt go through the salt compartment everytime? Only on the regeneration stage?

The rest of the time it flows through the resin part?


Post# 497200 , Reply# 19   2/17/2011 at 16:42 (4,671 days old) by richardc1983 (Leeds, UK)        

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Found this other link that explains the process:

CLICK HERE TO GO TO richardc1983's LINK



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