Thread Number: 32934
Why a Miele?
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Post# 495863   2/12/2011 at 04:08 (4,676 days old) by mieleforever (SOUTH AFRICA)        

So like I said in my Previous post, I own a Miele washer and dryer, so now that I have bought it why did I just spend a rediculous amount on them? Can anybody support my purchase with some arguments that it is not such a bad washer and dryer.

regards


Post# 495866 , Reply# 1   2/12/2011 at 05:47 (4,676 days old) by aegokocarat (United Kingdom)        

they are well made and verrry solid and they have ssteel outer tubs and cast weights

Post# 495871 , Reply# 2   2/12/2011 at 06:47 (4,676 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Miele washing machines are solid, with carefully crafted components and backed by a long history of reliability, cycles are usually shorter than many competitor brands and clean well.

But I wouldn't ever consider buying one of them!

1- I don't care for a machine to last 20 or more years, 10 for me is all right, God only knows what they're going to invent in another decade.

2- The styling of all Miele appliances is horrible, full stop.

3- They're not made in Italy, I avoid buying stuff that isn't made locally.

4- They tend to use more energy compared to other machines even if they're in the same energy class (at least according to Altroconsumo).

5- I have cats and dogs and don't use a dryer, so the honeycomb drum would only leave more hair than a standard perforated drum


Post# 495875 , Reply# 3   2/12/2011 at 07:02 (4,676 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian)        
Why wonder?

Whatever the reason why you bought your Miele set, you did it, and now you cannot undo it.
If you are reasonably happy (and I suppose you are) why not simply enjoying what is good in your set and accepting what you maybe like less as an inevitable compromise?
Because yes: even Miele is a compromise...


Post# 495899 , Reply# 4   2/12/2011 at 09:02 (4,676 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Six years later after I "converted", I'm still as happy with mine as I was the first day I got it.  When I first bought it I wasn't sure if I should cancel the order or not as I had a perfectly fine AEG Oko Lavamat that was only just over a year old, and thought the same as most others -what more can it do that the AEG can't?  However I was literally converted overnight... For me, it's the best everyday washer I've had, quiet, quick, and always cleans/rinses well even on the short cycles.  I did have an itch for something different, and whilst the machine I used in this flat for a while when I first moved in was nice to use just because it was different, I really started to miss the Miele so put it in...  That, and the one my mum has is the only washer that she hasn't managed to pretty much kill, and it's rolling on for 5 years heavy use now with no problems...

 

Bear in mind that along with Bosch, Miele have always been in Which?'s best buy recommendations here, and have been for years.  They aren't shiny, they don't come in 5 colours, and they don't let you alter the orbit path of the International Space Station, but they do their job and they do it very well.

 

Somebody mentioned styling... to me I actually like the straight, precise look of the Traditional series machines... must be the architect in me.  :-)  BTW the Honeycomb drum shouldn't pose you with any problems either, mum's house has enough animals for it to be opened as a zoo, and never had a problem with dog/cat hairs etc.

 

My parents had a couple issues with the tumble dryer when they first got it, from what mum's told me there hasn't been any problems with it lately and it's just fine.

 

I see you're in South Africa - I imagine a high part of your purchase price was probably due to shipping etc.

 

They aren't for everybody - otherwise everybody would have one - and the price of some of the high end models is enough to make most people cry, but they are really good, well thought-out machines and (depending where you bought it from) well worth the price.  I'm a fan of most other washers as much as anybody else is, and own/am interested in several brands... but if I could have only one brand throughout, and money was no object, it would be Miele everytime.  (Or perhaps a V-Zug, seeming as money would be no object, but I digress...)

 

I probably sound like a salesman, or perhaps more of a cult leader lol, but seriously - don't worry about your purchase... :-)

 

Jon




This post was last edited 02/12/2011 at 10:29
Post# 495902 , Reply# 5   2/12/2011 at 09:07 (4,676 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA)        

peterh770's profile picture

Only 20 years?  I hope mine lasts 40!  I wouldn't even think about any other current machine on the market and I can't imagine what kind of trash will pass as a washer in another decade.


Post# 495915 , Reply# 6   2/12/2011 at 09:46 (4,676 days old) by mieleforever (SOUTH AFRICA)        
Miele again!

Well you know what you probably are right, I resentely went to an old car, motor show, and wow there were such a lot of beautiful cars there, but again the ones that stood out to me were the Mercedes Benz's. One cannot argue that when they set out to build the 600, and I am not talking about the S600, I am talking about the 600, if you dont know it then I suggest you google it. Bottom line these cars were designed and build in 1969 up until 1981 they had no equal, some even go so far as to say that up until the newest Maybach was created there were no other car like it. One of the most beautiful features on the 600 is the hydrolics. Everything in that car is hydrolically operated, even the windows, and was driven by the likes of Chanel, John Lennon, Elvis, and yes a few dictators the likes of Saddam Hoesein. back to my point Lavamat jon, I have come to accept that there are very few equals in the Washing machine industry, when it comes to Miele, and am very glad that I shelled out that money for it, I have gone further and bought two Miele Vacuum cleaners as well, one for the home and one for the office (our old AEG System Pro died), even there it seems that these machines have very little to compare them to. For one they are so quiet and dont leave a crum or dust spec.

So thank you very much for all of your input I really do appreciate it very much and is very much enjoying my purchase.

Regards



Post# 495941 , Reply# 7   2/12/2011 at 12:04 (4,676 days old) by northernmary (Huddersfield - West Yorkshire)        
I agree !!!

northernmary's profile picture
i agree 100% with jon, i have had mine aswell for 5 years and its been the best washer i have ever used !

Miele forever better!

NorthernMary


Post# 495949 , Reply# 8   2/12/2011 at 12:47 (4,676 days old) by Docker (Cape Town, South Africa)        
I agree with Gabriele

I must admit that I have never owned a Miele. As for AEG, I had a Lavamat 64 SL, but hated it as it always chopped holes in the floor. My mom had a Lavamat 540 for 27 years. When it died, spares were not availlable. The new AEG Electrolux machines only seem to last 5 years before the spider breaks. In contrast, Indesit spares are readily availlable & reasonably priced.
Today, I did a marathon wash: curtains: 2 heavy drops & 3 towels in the 2009 Samsung 8kg T/L: 47 minutes. 2 heavy drops in the 1990 Indesit Limpiatre Inox 5.5kg: 1h20m & 2 light drops in the 1979 Indesit L8: 1h25m. Line drying took 1.5 hrs for the Samsung (740 rpm), 2 hrs for the Limpatre (600 rpm) & 2.5 hrs for the L8 (380 rpm)


Post# 496174 , Reply# 9   2/13/2011 at 10:19 (4,675 days old) by paulinroyton (B)        
Miele Washer

I love my Miele washer, reason why, because it was given to me for free of charge, lol.

Post# 496202 , Reply# 10   2/13/2011 at 11:51 (4,675 days old) by paulc (Edinburgh, Scotland)        

paulc's profile picture
I bought a BOL Miele because I was fed up of having to replace a washer every two years ( am hard on washers ). I wish I'd bought on years ago!!! I LOVE the fact that it cleans superbly in a short time, never messes about balancing for a spin and is quiet. I just need to save up for the matching dryer now!!!! I've had my Miele for two years and 3 months and have never tired of it yet.

Post# 496347 , Reply# 11   2/14/2011 at 02:49 (4,674 days old) by favorit ()        

Hi mieleforever, my 4 cents are on the thread 31549 *My "new" Miele toplader"

sorry, can't link it as it is still an active thread


Post# 496353 , Reply# 12   2/14/2011 at 04:08 (4,674 days old) by northernmary (Huddersfield - West Yorkshire)        
Miele Premier 500

northernmary's profile picture
this is my Miele Premier 500, its been a fantastic machine and its now five years old !

NorthernMary


Post# 496354 , Reply# 13   2/14/2011 at 04:18 (4,674 days old) by northernmary (Huddersfield - West Yorkshire)        
Miele T8302 dryer

northernmary's profile picture
This is my new Miele T8302 Vented Dryer i have had it now for about 3 months it replaced my Miele Condencer Dryer T4262C (the condencer dryer has gone to my mums house) im supprised how quick the machine drys a load compared to the old one that it replaced.

NorthernMary


Post# 496386 , Reply# 14   2/14/2011 at 10:02 (4,674 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA)        

peterh770's profile picture

Benita likes to ride the 1918...


Post# 496515 , Reply# 15   2/14/2011 at 23:21 (4,673 days old) by vacfanatic ()        
Miele W3033

Here is my W3033 washer I got just over 1 year ago. I 100% love it and would not trade it for anything! It was pricey, at $2000.

Post# 496544 , Reply# 16   2/15/2011 at 01:04 (4,673 days old) by bewitched (Italy)        

Why buy a Miele...
for me there are countless pros to buy a Miele. Since I was a child I always had Miele appliances. Using them day in and day out will tell you why buy Miele. They are sturdy and you can feel it just rotating the knobs or pushing the buttons. No washers that meeow as they were dieing or shake as they were haunted,no dishwashers that wash your dishes only if you wash them before. I could speak also about the wonderful ovens, the efficient vacuum cleaners,the induction hobs... I can see the differencies with other brands each time I repair a washer. Other machines, especially those made in Italy, cost little money but worth even less. They are built to disgregate themselves in few years. Once we produced fair appliances but certainly not now. We talk about environment protection but with such disposable products we only contribute to produce rubbish. A Miele will last a medium of 20 years, during this time a normal household will have to deal with for or five machines that will pile up at the landfill. Miele will wash and rinse at the highest standards with a fair amount of water while others claim to wash with ridiculous amount of water just to discover, when you get clothes out ,that parts of them are neither wet (It happened to a friend of mine with a famous italian brand washer) or they get out with the "soapy" feeling...
A good machine like a Miele will wash at the best no matter how many things they will invent in the years ahead. With a Miele you're absolutely future proof. And don't forget the aesthetic point of view. Mieles produce washers in three lines, the classical for those who appreciate the classic style,the modern and the young style. Have a look at the other brands with theirs bells and whistles and flimsy plastics. It seems knobs will fall in your hand the first time you turn them! I have a W4446 and it's absolutely fabulous but my 30 y.o. Automatic W 439 washes as well as this one.
Now that you have a Miele you'll not regret the choice


Post# 496586 , Reply# 17   2/15/2011 at 11:02 (4,673 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Tradeoffs

A 24" frame Miele W3033 to my home would be 2049 via mailorder via AJ Madison. I am not sure if that free shipping is to drop it one ones road or hauls it up my steep driveway and get it into the house.

With buying a Thanksgiving Nov 2010 sale Home Depot washer, one has free delivery plus this includes installation and hauling away of the old one if wanted. But one has the local state 7 percent sales tax too. Last Nov a top load Amana was 239 dollars, that is 256 with tax. That is one eighth the price of a Miele. ie one could have 8 TL washers delivered for the price of one mail order high end 24" small Miele. Here I just got a LG for 599 marked down from 899; ie 641 with tax. If it lasts 5 years I will be happy. The Miele would have to last 16 years, scary since nobody locally has one or has seen one or worked on one.


Post# 496716 , Reply# 18   2/15/2011 at 19:04 (4,673 days old) by AZREOspecialist ()        
It's not just about money...

3beltwesty, your entire argument is predicated on financial return. Many times the decision to buy a high-end brand is not about dollars and cents, but about the quality you are getting for that money. Many people would rather pay more for a higher quality product from a socially responsible company that manufactures products locally. I'm sure Europeans would rather pay more for a domestically produced product than pay less for something made in Asia.

It's unfortunate, but the "cheap at all costs" mentality of Americans is ruining the planet. By all means enjoy your 8 top loaders that waste gargantuan amounts of water and are made at the lowest possible cost using the lowest quality components. I'm perfectly happy with my Miele and the amount of money I paid for it. You see, I'm one of those people who prefers quality over quantity. It shouldn't always be about money - if it were, we would never make any progress as a society.


Post# 496722 , Reply# 19   2/15/2011 at 19:42 (4,672 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Andrew - nice to see you have the American younger cousin of my machine ;-).

 

Nice to see shots of various Mieles... what's also remarkable is how little the Traditional style of machines have changed over the years... Peter's 1918 wouldn't look out of place in the Miele range if sold today.

 

AZREO... welcome to the forum!

 

Take care guys,

 

Jon

 

My parents' Miele:


Post# 496728 , Reply# 20   2/15/2011 at 20:09 (4,672 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

It's unfortunate, but the "cheap at all costs" mentality of Americans is ruining the planet. By all means enjoy your 8 top loaders that waste gargantuan amounts of water and are made at the lowest possible cost using the lowest quality components. I'm perfectly happy with my Miele and the amount of money I paid for it. You see, I'm one of those people who prefers quality over quantity. It shouldn't always be about money - if it were, we would never make any progress as a society.


Some people just don't have the money to spend on a Miele machine. I have NEVER seen a Miele machine in person. Most American people just want a machine to wash their clothes. I personally don't see a point to spend that much on such a small machine, to which the machine itself is imported. Also cost of the parts and repairs is just out of this world. It's like having a Mercedes vs. a Ford both products provide you with transportation, except with Mercedes you pay several times more for parts, repairs, and the vehicle itself. If you are going to spend several thousand on a washing machine(as what the Miele costs) You might as well buy a REAL commercial machine. I like the TL too and I have a few. I prefer quality over quantity too, else why would I have Wascomat, Ipso and Primus machine as my daily drivers. Those are made FAR better than the wimpy Miele machines. And YES, boy do they use some water. NOT only REAL water, but lots of 3 phase 240V electricity. They make BIG Noises, and shake the concrete floor that they are bolted too. I guess that make me resource waster...SPLASH SPLASH, SO BE IT!! I HAVE CLEAN CLOTHES AND HEAVY DUTY MACHINES FOR SUPERIOR IN QUALITY THAN THE MIELE. Hopefully one day John(combo52) will come through for me with a Miele that comes in his shop because it's busted.


Post# 496730 , Reply# 21   2/15/2011 at 20:42 (4,672 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Lol. If you've never seen a Miele (or other high quality European brand) machine in person then how can you make the assumption they are wimpy? They may be a luxury item in the US but that is not the subject of this thread, and in Europe they are highly respected as a brand... That's like me casting a judgment on Speed Queen washers which I cannot do as I have no experience on which to base an opinion.

Fwiw, Miele sell their design in a commercial version, as well as specifically designed washer extractors so they are up there with others when it comes to laundry know how. Another nice thing about Miele machines that you wouldnt know seeming as you've never seen/used one is the ability to add water if one so wishes, which give rinse levels up the door not unlike commercial or older domestic machines. Scroll up and look at the pictures for yourself... Every single machine has a water plus button. Not that I use it too much - I can have a full load washed and rinsed in 42l of water and have the whites to prove it :-).

Yes, we know they are a rare brand in the US. And? Lets get back to enjoying and sharing which is what the thread is about, if you don't like the machines then simply don't post, and at least have valid reasoning before making incorrect points.

Take care,

Jon


Post# 496738 , Reply# 22   2/15/2011 at 21:18 (4,672 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

umm... Jon, I'm not saying that I don't like the Miele machines, I'm saying that they are big time over priced. Just by looking at the pictures of miele machines vs like SQ, Dexter, milnor and the such that the little dinky Mieles are just not made as good. Yes, I know Miele makes a commercial machine too, not talking about those. But....The commercial Mieles I have found to be MUCH more expensive than the average commercial machine too. For example I can purchase a brand new Wascomat W630 for ~$3,886 the equivalent(or near) Miele Professional cost somewhere ~$13,000. The Dexters, Continentals, Wasco's allow you to change water levels and programs too. My opinion vs. yours. SPLASH SPLASH!!!!!!

Post# 496740 , Reply# 23   2/15/2011 at 21:22 (4,672 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA)        

peterh770's profile picture

If you like quality over quantity, then you wouldn't have an Ipso and a Primus machine!

 

Besides, you are talking apples vs. oranges.  You cannot compare a commercial hardmount to a domestic softmount.  Of course, they are made better!  But if you want to put a SQ home washer against a Miele, there is no contest.


Post# 496743 , Reply# 24   2/15/2011 at 21:37 (4,672 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

If you like quality over quantity, then you wouldn't have an Ipso and a Primus machine!

I guess I could say the same thing about you and those Wasco Dryers you have!


Post# 496753 , Reply# 25   2/15/2011 at 22:23 (4,672 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Oh dear.....

ronhic's profile picture

Firstly, experience of a particular product is always preferable if being critical of its performance or build....

 

Secondly, car prices are not an indication of how much appliances cost...

 

A Mercedes of the same specification here costs approximately 300% of the cost in the US, yet I can buy a Miele washer for US$1700....

 

Miele are world renown for the quality of their products be they washers, dryers, cooking or floor care. You could ask people in every country to name what Miele make and most could name at least 2 items from the above. Ask about Wascomat and I reckon most would say 'a garbage disposal', not a washer/dryer/extractor.

 

Every house that can fit a 24" washer, can fit a Miele. Not every house that can do that, can fit a Wascomat....

 

Knowing that Miele have built their reputation as being a manufacturer of quality appliances, I'd be prepared to spend that money rather than replace 4, 5 or 6 cheaper machines....

 

I can't tell you how much I appreciate that Miele is STILL in the hands of the original family......over 60 family members of the Miele and Zinkann families are the shareholders. 


Post# 496766 , Reply# 26   2/16/2011 at 00:10 (4,672 days old) by Pingmeep ()        

You can compare commercial hard and softmounts to a Miele. Having looked at the commercial quality machines and almost ended up buying a Continental EH030. Forget the ugly factor because some commercial equipment is pretty good looking. Forget the softmount vs hardmount and weight issues (the Continental I had my eye on is about 780lbs) if we look at pure cleaning performance the Mieles would likely win.

Comparing Dexter's line (which is well built) spin and extraction speeds top out around 200Gs which is 760-850RPM. I don't mind having a commercial washer but losing all that water extraction means I would need a commercial dryer.

Their drum perforations are nowhere near as gentle as a Miele's honeycomb drum even at much lower speeds. Try running plush cotton towels and compare the results. The Continental is worse. If you have dress shirts and dress pants the Miele is probably a better investment. If you have silk and the like the Miele is the only choice till you go into gonzo specialized machines or price segments.

In cycle settings the Miele also wins. Now if I had a commercial laundry I would rather have fast washers but here at home I just want results. A good choice of cycles helps that.

As far as warranty goes I'm out $3500 tax and delivery included for a machine and 10 year parts and labor warranty. With my higher than average use I expect it to last between 10-13 years. That's not a bad investment. The Continental starts at that price plus additional for delivery. If I need parts I have to go through a dealer. Not so good.

Lets also not forget even with the smaller capacity Miele does make 27" models. Hope the do better than BSH who are gone from the 27" space. If you don't mind waiting you can get them over in Canada and probably stateside this summer. There is a backlog at the moment and existing customers get first dibs.

Miele is slow to release new models. This years release will be what the first really new North American model in four years? They have been slower to adapt new tech. Just this year they finally got a heat pump dryer. Their sound insulation can leave something to be desired depending on model. And the prices are at the highend of the market. But that's the segment they have targeted.

Finally yes they also make commercial machines and many of them have many more features and programmability compared to the competition. Miele's PW6161 blows the Continental EH030 out of the water. For the kings ransom they charge you would expect them to.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Pingmeep's LINK


Post# 496777 , Reply# 27   2/16/2011 at 03:36 (4,672 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I've always wanted one! Especially since the can be programmed to use more water. Oh well. I'll probably be sticking with WP since I get a discount from a family member.

Post# 496779 , Reply# 28   2/16/2011 at 06:03 (4,672 days old) by bewitched (Italy)        

..."Those are made FAR better than the wimpy Miele machines"...

Supremewirlpol, you said you never saw a Miele in person so how can you judge about their quality? It's the same if one that never saw a Wascomat Ipso or Primus says they are unreliable...
:-)

This is not a race for the winning podium,isn't it?


Post# 496805 , Reply# 29   2/16/2011 at 09:45 (4,672 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA)        
OMG!!!

peterh770's profile picture

Believe me, those Wasco dryers are a NIGHTMARE!!!  I didn't buy them; they came with the store.  I don't know why the President keeps saying that there is money available for small businesses, because NO ONE is lending right now!  Been rejected by 5 institutions now to get funding to replace them.  Still looking...


Post# 496814 , Reply# 30   2/16/2011 at 10:49 (4,672 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
the little dinky Mieles are just not made as good

Actually, the Speed Queens in an apartment building I lived in, which were a couple of years old at most, broke down on an almost weekly basis under light commercial use (there was always at least one out of order, literally.) You could probably get more laundry into a Miele anyway, since you can actually use them at full capacity and still get clean, well rinsed clothes (not a chance in those Speed Queens.) The Miele little giant they had in the in the same room just went on and on, and was far older.

I would buy Miele because I know from experience they wash and rinse far better than ALL other brands I have used, are by far the most well made and are very gentle on clothing.

Even the commercial Mieles have proper wash cycles like a domestic machine, unlike most commercial machines with their pathetic 30min wash times which barely clean a thing :-)

Mieles may be expensive and hard to find in the U.S., but they aren't TOO bad here. My parents bought one in January for £650, considering how much better it will be and how much longer it will last than the reast of the machines on the market, even similarly priced machines, it's well worth it IMO.

As for the styling, I think they are far more sophisticated and classy than most machines made today, the fact the styling hasn't changed much since the early 80s goes to show how timless it is, an LG or a Samsung or whatever will look very dated in 20 years (maybe it's a good job they won't last anywhere near that long!) a Miele will still look good.

Here is my parents W3204 :-)

Matt


Post# 496817 , Reply# 31   2/16/2011 at 10:55 (4,672 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Why a Miele? also why NEVER to buy one is some places!

Here where I live I consider the total cost of ownership of the items I buy. Maybe this is a "foreign concept" to many on this thread.

To buy a small 24" frame Miele W3033 FL washer here via mailorder would be 2049 via mailorder via AJ Madison. A typical person then would have to pay somebody to pickup their dead washer. If one wants to really follow the tax laws too one is suppose to pay the state sales taxes too on this out of state purchase. Thus the total cost is really 2200 to 2300 bucks for a small 24" washer that will not wash an american comforter.

If the Miele has issues at some time, no local repair shop has ever seen one. Thus one would have to have a repair chap from New Orleans or Atlanta vist.

I already went through "repair hell" with our oddball 1972 Hotpoint 1200 buck dual oven electronic (microwave) rig. Local folks had never seen one; a repair chap from New Orleans vist was 100 bucks back in the late 1970's. It got to where we stopped repairing the 945 Mhz microwave portion since repairs required somebody to vist from New Orleans. One needed to own an oil well to pay for all the repair and travel costs.

Thus in the wastefull ways of some here, one could buy a little 24" Miele here for 2300 bucks. Then one could several times a year travel to the laundromat to wash comforters and large items. One could after several years have somebody vist from New Orleans for 300 bucks just to arrive at ones door for a repair.

With the local shipyard that services yachts or oil rig service boats, they just pull the 24" Miele if the unit has issues and replace it with a brand new one. The 2300 to 2500 bucks is peanuts in their scheme of things, and they know nobody local can fix one. They might too pull the unit out and drive it 160km to New Orleans for repairs, if the yacht is laid up for hull repairs for awhile.

A lot of high end oddball foreign freak consumer items that are not normally bought here are junked once a major problem arises. It use to be like this with foreign cars decades ago. To keep one running via repairs was super expensive. Thus locally folks do consider if the machi9ne is serviced locally; or is one buying some freakish brand nobody has seen of before. Folks do not care a rats rear if the "Quality" brand is cheap to repair 10,000 Km away across the ocean, the are concerned if there are buying a repair total boondoggle, one that will be a total nightmare in parts and service costs. Here in the usa, some of use consider the TOTAL cost of ownership. If about all the tractors in Anywhere USA are Fords, most sane farmers will not buy an imported Yugo tractor or Miele Tractor if nobody for 160km has worked on one before.

Miele in this area is a brand nobody really has heard off. No local service folks have seen one either. If one self services, repair clinic.com has about 27 brands of washers listed, but no Miele.

Thus it really does not matter here locally if Miele washer parts are on every street corner in Europe and they are free and the government has free repairs! :). We wonder if that so called quality is like the other oddball freak poor purchases we made. ie that Peugeot car that went through alternators every year than cost 450 each. Thus one started self repair, the blown diodes can be pressed out and ones from a NAPA store were only 2 bucks from a GM alternator. One gets into self repair due to frustrations of being raped with high costs in fixing the freak oddball item one bought.

The title of this thread is : Why a Miele?

Less Mieles are sold in areas where the units are sold via only mailorder, where no local home owns one, where no local store has one, where no local repair man has seen one in his life, where no usa parts house like repairclinic.com carry any Miele parts.

Buying a Miele here is only done by the local shipyard for small yachts and oil service boats. If the washer lasts 5 years and leaks, they just buy another one for 2300 bucks and the old one goes in a landfill.

If one asks "Why a Miele?" one might get answers of why many folks will never buy them. It is just an darn expensive small machine that costs 3 to 4 times what a normal machine costs, that nobody locally will work on. Thus the confidence factor is low. ie feel better buying a 400 to 600 Maytag, Whirlpool or LG and having it last 5 years. The 2300 buck Miele too might last 10 to 20 years, or one might spend 1000 bucks in repairs via 300km round trips for small things and go broke.

If I decided to build a commercial coin laundromat or buy a washer for a house in Supremewhirlpool's town, I would ask him what machines he has worked one before and what he likes to work on. If he has never seen a Miele before, only a total fool would buy a Miele. The repairs and service do have a bearing on many folks purchases.



Post# 496823 , Reply# 32   2/16/2011 at 11:14 (4,672 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        
3beltwesty

This thread is mainly aimed where Miele is an option, and has evolved into an opportunity to discuss Miele machines in markets in which they are available.  If it isn't available to you for whatever reason, then please move on.  I think we have pretty much established by now that you have no desire/facility/opportunity (whatever you want to call it) to own one, there is no need to continue making the somewhat tiresome point on every thread where 60cm washers (that is 24" to you) are mentioned.  This does not discount their credibility as a machine, regardless as to their availability or not.

 

The ironic thing is, Miele breakdowns are not that common anyway for there to be much hassle with repairing. :-)

 

Have a nice day,

 

Jon


Post# 496832 , Reply# 33   2/16/2011 at 11:44 (4,672 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Servicing

mrb627's profile picture

I wonder if it is easier to get a Speed Queen serviced in the UK than it is to get a Miele serviced in the US.

 

Just wondering...

 

Malcolm


Post# 496835 , Reply# 34   2/16/2011 at 12:10 (4,672 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

I imagine as Speed Queens are sold commercially here, you would most likely have to get a commercial distributor to repair any Speed Queens installed domestically.  Seeming as here it is practically impossible for the typical domestic consumer to evenpurchase a commercial machine for home use (most distributors are strictly trade only), I imagine trying to get one repaired would be just as difficult.  Otherwise I would probably have a Speed Queen toploader in my collection :-)

 

Take care,

 

Jon


Post# 496867 , Reply# 35   2/16/2011 at 14:21 (4,672 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Mieles are available via mailorder, thus they are an option


Jon; The thread's title.

It is "Why a Miele?"

(A)Here locally they use them for reason #1 , a compact small quality machine on a multi millionaires luxury yacht, where money is no issue.

(B)Here locally they use them for reason #2 a compact small quality machine on a million buck plus oil rig service boat, where money is no issue.

(C)Here locally most normal folks do not use a Miele for many reasons, nobody has heard of the brand, no local store carries the brand, no local service place has seen any before. 99.999 percent of the Joe and Jan averages CAN order a Miele mailorder but choose not to. Probably one in 1000 local has even heard of the Miele brand before.


When one asks why a brand brand X is used, it opens up too why it is not used too since the usage is really nothing in some places. It may not be as easy to understand as why snow shovels are not sold in Miami stores.

Thus both cases were mentioned; ie "Why a Miele?" and why not too, to increase understanding.

The facts and reality of why Miele usage is higher and lower in places might be interesting to some.

For others case (C) might bother Europeans since it is reality and "low zilch numbers" are not what many want to hear about. ie the usages of Miele's is totally zilch in most places in the usa. There is probably one Miele in 1/2 million homes around here. It really has nothing to do with quality at all. Every Tom, Dick and Harry here has heard of the Maytag brand, this goes back many many generations. Joe sixpack and Jane SUV will buy a Whirlpool or Maytag over a Miele. Joe Japan will buy a Hitachi or National widget over some obscure brand name they have never heard of before.


Most folks here will not buy a washer brand that has no local repair knowledge base. Maybe in Europe the other case is true?

One can here buy a 24" Miele via mailorder/internet and have it trucked in, thus they are available. If it leaks in one week one has no local store to whine too. One gets into a ruckus with the truck line or mail order store 1600 km away as to is at fault. If one complains enough and used a credit card one might be able to void the transaction; and have the leaky hulk returned. Ebay is full of dented and as-is new machines ruined in truck deliveries due to returns of consumer items.



Folks in non usa places can preach 24" machines all they want to. You get to buy one locally and see them at a store. Your local service folks have actually worked on one before, or actually seen the brand washer before. You have zero risk compared to us.


Here I really have no clues of "why an XXX brand" is or is not used in place YYY unless I ask or do research. Thus if PLUTO is a great quality local brand washer here, I might wonder why the UK has few owners of these washers.

Those very few here locally who have heard of a Miele and can afford one still have no local service, and it is a machine in size small than most want. Multiplying these three factors means the "Why a Miele?" is in the parts per millions of users in most places in the usa. Low usage here has nothing to do with quality, it has to do with parts and service being about none.


Post# 496870 , Reply# 36   2/16/2011 at 15:14 (4,672 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Before I became a member here, I had NEVER heard of anything being made by Miele before. The reason for that is they simply don't exist in a normal store. Then after having to track down prices on the Internet, see why they are not as common in the US. Very high prices, parts are hard to find here and expensive too. Not only that, who will you find locally to repair it(at a reasonable price), without having the repair man to travel a long distance. I've read several reviews about the mieles, several a lot of people seem to like them, however after getting some close-up pictures of parts, such as water valves, wiring, electronics. I would have expected more in the parts quality area, since the machine itself costs several thousand dollars. When I actually find a miele and bust it open, my opinion of the brand of machine might change, but until then I don't consider them real commercial machines, I consider Wascomat, Continental, True Ipso, not Alliance Ipso, as having machines of better build and parts quality than the Miele. I even consider SQ's as having a leg up on the Miele's, now that's sad. Yes, the miele machines in the pictures above are little and dinky, but still cute. More like something I'd have to stick in a hallway somewhere, not something I'd take seriously for cleaning any type of real work. Over here ~30min is good enough, granted, you have proper amounts of water at the right temp., lots of agitation, a good amount of soap/agents to remove the dirt/stains etc. Nothing wrong with using ~30min commercial machines. What matters is how they are configured , what settings you have it on, what type and amount of soap and additives are used.

Post# 496871 , Reply# 37   2/16/2011 at 15:17 (4,672 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Well.....

ronhic's profile picture

....you do have to ask why anyone would buy a machine for their home if they can't get it serviced should it require it.....

 

So here's the kicker.....

 

A Miele is known to be a hard working, beautifully built machine that, as a manufacturer, top the reliability feedback scores in the UK and here (and probably everywhere else they are sold)....

 

...but if you can't get it serviced without paying a fortune to bring someone from another area, then DON'T BUY ONE.

 

On another note: Paying $450 to your mechanic for Peugeot (505?) alternators when they could have been fixed is just silly.....


Post# 496893 , Reply# 38   2/16/2011 at 16:55 (4,672 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Good points are being made about the recognition of Miele within the USA.  A lot also depends on how close you are to one of the Miele display centers.  The closer you are the more likely you will know about the brand.  Living less than 50 miles from one helped give me the opportunity to learn about the brand. 

 

I bought my first Miele appliance in 1996.  Up until that time I had never heard of them.  Two years ago an older office building around the corner from me was turned into condos and each one has all Miele appliances, Excella DW's and 1215 or something washers(the 24 inch units).  My local appliance store carries Miele appliances, detergent, Persil....along with all of the other brands of appliances...but you won't find Miele anything(dishwasher, larger washer or smaller washer) at larger super stores like Sears, Lowes, and Home depot, stores that are common throughout  the USA. I can get service from Miele headquarters in Trenton or from a repair shop a few miles away, but  I think this still depends on where you are located in the USA 

 

Something else has also happened in the area of service.....now many washers of different brand names are made by the same company so essentially their mechanicals are similar. Service is now done by outside contractor companies that service all of these brands of machines....this works well...but it won't work  well  Miele because they have differences and they have the laptop computer interface used to diagnose a problem before the machine is opened  This software is not available to non Miele service companies, so they start off at a disadvantage.    If you can't get your Miele serviced  it is probably not a good idea to buy one.

 


Post# 496894 , Reply# 39   2/16/2011 at 17:24 (4,672 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
I don't consider them real commercial machines

That would be because the machines we are reffering to are NOT commerical machines.

Personally, I have no interest whatsoever in commercial machines. I do not believe they wash or rinse well at all, and have yet to be convinced they do.

What we are talking about here is domestic machines, and in terms of domestic machines Miele are leaps and bounds ahead of any other brand.

Also, as has become apparent from other threads, these "cute little dinky machines" will hold more laundry, and wash rings around most oversized American domestic machines.

Matt


Post# 496904 , Reply# 40   2/16/2011 at 18:39 (4,672 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
re 450 buck alternator.

ronhic Re ; On another note: Paying $450 to your mechanic for Peugeot (505?) alternators when they could have been fixed is just silly.....

That price of 450 was for another working alternator, not to have somebody to fix it. The dealer's price to you as a end user back in the 1980's no less. A alternator rebuild shop wanted only 290 bucks.

The car was actually driven to and from work for a month with no working alternator. In today's prices is actual dollars double these numbers.

Thus the alternator was taken apart and we found out that the pressed in diodes in the "diode trio" are the same as GM's diodes. ie one fixes the issue oneself to not be raped via the owning the weird foreign item where one gets sometimes raped in costs.

NO mechanic was paid 450 dollars, that was the cost if one bought an alternator from the dealer; before labor to install.

Aftermarket rebuilt alternators were also over 250 bucks; at the same place where a dumb Ford or GM one was often as low as 15 bucks in the 1980's and might last 15 years or 1.5 months; ie total crapshoot

One farts around and goes to junkyards and the junkers if you find one have no alternators, some other chap did not want to get raped either in repair costs.



Post# 496909 , Reply# 41   2/16/2011 at 18:47 (4,672 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
repair software might not be availible

Re Jerrod6's "Miele because they have differences and they have the laptop computer interface used to diagnose a problem before the machine is opened This software is not available to non Miele service companies, so they start off at a disadvantage. "

In cars in the USA; we have a war with what the NON dealer repair shops want in software, and what the car makers will give.

There are actually some lawsuits no about this matter. ie one replaces a dumb switch and ones car cannot start anymore. The software has to be reset to accept the switch; and only the dealer has the software key. Thus this locks out the non dealer repair shops and home repair folks; they have one now held by ones privates. Thus to crank ones car the car has to be towed to the dealer and one pays dealer prices.

One has other risks with repairs, can one get a parts breakdown or manual even.


Post# 496915 , Reply# 42   2/16/2011 at 19:01 (4,672 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
24" machines hold less; the spin basket is smaller


"Also, as has become apparent from other threads, these "cute little dinky machines" will hold more laundry, and wash rings around most oversized American domestic machines.

The 24" machines have a smaller drum; with a smaller diameter and less deep than a 27" frame machine's spin basket.

Your statement that the smaller machine holds more than a larger one is what we call here snake oil.

Anybody here that looks at a 24" machine sees they are smaller.

Plus legally they are since the legal IEC volumes are smaller in a proper sales advert.

A slick salesman at a store might say that to make as sale; an TV advert would get into deep trouble with outlandish statements that the little machines hold more than larger ones. Lawyers eat companies for a living here; the live for infractions.


The Federal Trade Commission gets involved with snake oil adverts; a major maker of goods can be fined for such hokem. If really bad they can be forced to pay each consumer for the fib; since they were given bad info.

Maybe the UK has no equalvalent of the FTC and Consumer Protections?


Post# 496916 , Reply# 43   2/16/2011 at 19:04 (4,672 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

For the amount of money that you spend on a Miele in the US, you might as well purchase a commercial machine, at least you'd have more service support for it. Oh, and yes there are 24" soft-mount commercial machines, I have one. I've tried getting Miele service manuals from the internet, No such luck. If anyone has a link, please let me know.

Post# 496917 , Reply# 44   2/16/2011 at 19:06 (4,672 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Little Giants

mrb627's profile picture

Back when I was shopping the Miele Little Giant machines for their flexability, we happened to have a Miele Professional dealer here in the Atlanta area.  So I ventured down into the city to get some information.  Well, they didn't have the Little Giant machines on the floor and they didn't have any literature on the set either.  So, I contacted Miele directly.  They pointed me to the dealer showroom in Boca Raton FL.  Some 700 miles away.  I thought, hmmm.  They don't seem to really care about selling these machines do they.  Anyway, I just happened to be heading to South FL for the Xmas Holiday and decided I would take an afternoon and trek over to the shop in Boca.  Well, I got to the dealership and low and behold, they had never even heard of a model referred to as the Little Giant's.  I had to pull them up on the Miele website to prove that they actually existed.  Well, guess what, they directed me to a Miele showroom in New York or Chicago to see them in operation on the sales floor.  Now come on, if you want to stake a claim to the North American market, you need to at least get your machines out there where people can put their hands on them.

 

Come on Miele, get your act together...

 

Malcolm


Post# 496918 , Reply# 45   2/16/2011 at 19:10 (4,672 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

As far as Miele, I have long heard that the higher end machines are good machines. That is why the small units are uses on Yachts and ocean/river boats.

I saw some dead Miele FL washers at a steel scrap yard back in the early 1980's up in Pearl Miss. They were probably out of a hospital or scrap from a shipyards boat refurbishment of a boat.

I have also seen a Meile FL while in Germany in the late 1980's.

I also saw one at a high end store in Los Angeles back in the 1990's

If one looks at yachts to dream about in magazines, or ebay, a Miele washer is sometimes mentioned

Here is a Miele dishwasher for boats:



CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK on eBay


Post# 496920 , Reply# 46   2/16/2011 at 19:13 (4,672 days old) by supremewhirlpol ()        

Oh wow Malcolm, I bet that was disappointing. I have to give you props for going that far to see a machine that Miele claimed to have, but did not have. Perhaps they'd be more popular in the US if they lowered their prices, expanded their target audience, and applied more marketing.

Post# 496921 , Reply# 47   2/16/2011 at 19:16 (4,672 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

A Miele washer or dishwasher is probably in suppliers who cater and supply commercial boats and luxury yachts.

Thus if one is in Florida, a yacht supplier/fitter/chandler's warehouse is where a 24" Miele FL washer might be; ie not one really for the homeowner.




Post# 496928 , Reply# 48   2/16/2011 at 19:41 (4,671 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Mieles USA showrooms in Higher Priced areas



This link shows Mieles USA showrooms.

The nearest ones to me are Dallas, Boca Raton and Chicago.. Dallas is about 800 Km away, Boca 1000Km away, Chicago 1300Km away.

I wonder if they have all 5 washers at each showroom, or does one get there and just look at the brochures?

I wonder if these cities have a repair chap? ie Dallas would be a 1600Km round trip to me!


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 496954 , Reply# 49   2/16/2011 at 20:20 (4,671 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
I saw some dead Miele FL washers at a steel scrap yard back

That's interesting, considering they weren't introduced onto the North American market at all until 1988...

My statement that they hold more than most American sized machines comes from the fact you can cram them completely full and still get perfectly washed, perfectly rinsed, uncreased and undamaged clothes from them, without damage to the machine. It is apparent that most U.S. washers can't handle being more than perhaps two thirds full at most, so yes, I do believe they hold almost as much, if not as much, as most of these oversized machines.

Matt


Post# 497010 , Reply# 50   2/17/2011 at 01:25 (4,671 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
I'm ashamed to read this thread!


It's like spitting venom on yourselves!

I never liked Miele appliances and I'm never going to buy one but then again and as soon as I gave my opinion I stepped out of the "arena".
But this is over the limit of decency!

You American never stopped for a second insulting Europeans!

And many of the European guys on the other hand never really tried to understand the reasons behind the "no Miele please" that were tried to be explained.


Probably, if I were in the same situation, of spending 4-5 times more money that what I would have to do for a "standard, known" machine for a smaller, more costly, unknown one. I'd be sure to think twice.

But then again I've seen and used a few Miele machines and as much they can wash and rinse well (the latter, actually, not really well in my opinion...) and top loading American style machines (only a few times hopefully) that can't wash even light stains and really stress clothes but rinse with plenty of water (but you have to remember to put the softener at the right time, otherwise you'll waste 60 more litres to add it...).

If I were the average American guy, shopping for a machine I'd sure not recommend a Miele but I'd search around for a decent machine, with a built-in heater and reasonably long wash cycles that can wash a full load (I have the European experience in me!). Not being aware of the terrible reputation of LG I'd sure get one of those or a machine from Frigidaire.

PS: a European machine actually holds more in real term capacity than an American machine as it can be "overstuffed" and still was perfectly well and rinse accordingly. The only difference is that you can't stick in a double/queen/king size duvet. I did a thread especially for this and no American proved me wrong. Domestic American machines can't hold a full load of clothes so actually a standard 24 (60 cm) machine in reality holds more!

BTW: there are a few 10 kg machines in 24" frames, and they can wash at stated capacity as they're actually tested.


Post# 497014 , Reply# 51   2/17/2011 at 03:22 (4,671 days old) by paulinroyton (B)        
Miele Washers

This has been an interesting post. My parents have Miele appliances and they have had their washer for years, think its so old it Noah had it in the ark, lol. I know there are only 2 in my paretns household but she washes every day, yet her machine goes on and on and on.

I once had a Bosch Maxx 5 washer. It was the worst washer I have ever had. It broke down after 5 months use, had to wait over 2 weeks before it was repaired, thank god I got legal advice from Which. When my friend bought his house there was appliances left in, one of which was a Miele washer, which he very kindly gave to me. The machine is fab, quiet at washing & spinning, no unbalanced load issues.

I read on here Matt,s parents buying a Miele for £650. That is a very good price to pay and will last them for such a long time and without any breakdowns. Some LG machines are now about the same price as Miele machines.

Paul


Post# 497040 , Reply# 52   2/17/2011 at 06:51 (4,671 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
Going by a table posted a while back here

Which stated how much laundry American machines of various sizes can hold, to wash 6kg (13lb) of laundry, an American machine would need a 3.3 cubic foot drum (93.4l). A European Miele can wash 6kg (13lb) of laundry in in a 1.9 cubic foot (55l) drum. You can get standard size (24") European machines with up to 2.8 cubic foot (78l) drums as well, these machines can hold around 8kg (18lbs) of laundry.

So yes, you can fit a considerably larger amount of laundry in a European machine than a U.S. machine with the same size drum. Also, you can buy "dinky, weedy, wussy, tiny, cute" (whatever derogatory names you can think of) European sized machines which will wash the same amount as an American machine with a 4.3 cubic foot drum.

So much for my "snake oil" claims....

Matt


Post# 497046 , Reply# 53   2/17/2011 at 07:08 (4,671 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
The table

Sorry it's a bit hard to read, these are the load sizes an American machine is capable of.


Container volume Test load
cu. ft.¡Ư< liter¡Ư< lb kg
0-0.80 0-22.7 3.00 1.36
0.80-0.90 22.7-25.5 3.50 1.59
0.90-1.00 25.5-28.3 3.90 1.77
1.00-1.10 28.3-31.1 4.30 1.95
1.10-1.20 31.1-34.0 4.70 2.13
1.20-1.30 34.0-36.8 5.10 2.31
1.30-1.40 36.8-39.6 5.50 2.49
1.40-1.50 39.6-42.5 5.90 2.68
1.50-1.60 42.5-45.3 6.40 2.90
1.60-1.70 45.3-48.1 6.80 3.08
1.70-1.80 48.1-51.0 7.20 3.27
1.80-1.90 51.0-53.8 7.60 3.45
1.90-2.00 53.8-56.6 8.00 3.63
2.00-2.10 56.6-59.5 8.40 3.81
2.10-2.20 59.5-62.3 8.80 3.99
2.20-2.30 62.3-65.1 9.20 4.17
2.30-2.40 65.1-68.0 9.60 4.35
2.40-2.50 68.0-70.8 10.00 4.54
2.50-2.60 70.8-73.6 10.50 4.76
2.60-2.70 73.6-76.5 10.90 4.94
2.70-2.80 76.5-79.3 11.30 5.13
2.80-2.90 79.3-82.1 11.70 5.31
2.90-3.00 82.1-85.0 12.10 5.49
3.00-3.10 85.0-87.8 12.50 5.67
3.10-3.20 87.8-90.6 12.90 5.85
3.20-3.30 90.6-93.4 13.30 6.03
3.30-3.40 93.4-96.3 13.70 6.21
3.40-3.50 96.3-99.1 14.10 6.40
3.50-3.60 99.1-101.9 14.60 6.62
3.60-3.70 101.9-104.8 15.00 6.80
3.70-3.80 104.8-107.6 15.40 6.99
Notes: (1) All test load weights are bone dry weights.


Post# 497122 , Reply# 54   2/17/2011 at 11:51 (4,671 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Legally in the USA a 24" frame FL Miele is smaller than


Here is a screen shot of the USA Miele web page, where I have added the legally defined IEC volumes that Miele USA washers are sold by.

In all cases the 24" frame machines have smaller volumes than the 27" frame Mieles. Also added is the internet price in the USA to buy a Miele washer.

Here in the usa one cannot legally say that a machine that is a 2.3 or 2.52 cuft is larger or holds more clothes than one that is 4.0 cuft.

The laws protect the public from snake oil of marketing chaps, or frothy specs used elsewhere that inflate a products size. Thus a level playing field is used, all washers sold in the usa are defined by IEC specs


The IEC legal volumes that washers are legally marked is such a larger number means the washer holds more clothes. The numbers provide a basis to compare different washer models sold in one time frame in the USA. It is not a perfect spec; but clearly a 4.0 model holds vastly more clothes than a 2.52 model.

Todays 24" frame FL washer in the usa has a smaller spin basket than a 27" FL washer. It holds less clothes. It has a legally smaller volume for marketing.

Here legally one cannot state in any USA washer specs or adverts :

"So yes, you can fit a considerably larger amount of laundry in a European machine than a U.S. machine with the same size drum. "


It is the IEC legal specs that matter. *IF* the European machine is sold here legally, it has to use USA rules, so washers sold here can be compared. Thus if a car in Europe is hawked as 300HP and it really is 225HP via USA specs , the usa number has to be used . This is so a buyer is not duped by the frothy European specs defined differently.

The average Joe the Plummer or Jane the SUV here goes into a local store to buy a washer. The average FL washer size here on the show floors is about 4.0 cuft IEC. A 24" frame machine with a 2.52 cuft IEC is thus 2.52/4 = 63 percent in size; and it is not on any local stores floor here since few want such a dinky washer.

Joe the Plumber in the usa can call the smaller 24" machine all sorts of goofy slang words for small; ie smaller, a runt, dinky, a cute toy, a compact, dorm sized, tiny, whussy, boat sized, midget, petite, girlie sized, neat, European sized, European frame size, 24" frame size, trailer sized. Joe uses these same terms for guns, ammo, trucks, houses, saws, drills, hammers, houses, lawn mowers, cameras too. Whether these terms translate well to another culture is open for debate. The same smaller buzzwords are used with saws. A standard circular saw here is 7 1/4" blade. I have had circular saws with 10", 7 1/4", 6 1/2", 6 1/4", 5 1/2" blades. Last weekend a coworker wanted one of us to carry the girlie saw up on the roof for a tight space that required a small saw. We had 2 saws the 7 1/4 and 5 1/2, thus the smaller saw was for that moment called a girlie saw. The giant 10" saw has BIG FOOT on its frame, thus Big Foot might be offended.

Since the average washer here has a 4.0 cuft IEC; Mieles 2.52 cuft FL models sold here are viewed as smaller; ie 63 percent of a normal washer via legally defined specs.

The Average usa Joe/Jane's rational buying a washer process is such about nobody wants to pay 2000 plus bucks for a dinky washer that holds legally only 63 percent of one 4.0 model available locally that costs only 600.

Is is common for non usa folks to spend 2000 + dollars for a washer?

Would non usa folks spend 2000 + bucks buying a washer that is only 63 percent of a normal 24" machine there?


Post# 497126 , Reply# 55   2/17/2011 at 12:17 (4,671 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
What do folks in Europe, OZ, SA etc pay for their Miele was


This I wonder since I cannot fathom the average person who buys a Miele spends 2000 dollars in Europe etc for washer.


Post# 497133 , Reply# 56   2/17/2011 at 12:53 (4,671 days old) by GrahamW ()        
miele

One of the factors to consider is that (at least in Canada) Miele offers a 10 year, manufacturer's warranty (albeit at a fairly hefty price). I know this was a big selling feature for friends who bought a pair last year. If it ever breaks, it will be repaired or replaced PDQ. Every other manufacturer they looked at was offering a 1-3 year parts warranty (it often depends on which part) with only 1 year for labour. Their previous washer was only 2 years old (LG) had a failed electronic control unit and wasn't worth fixing according to the dealer tech (there would have been a 6 week wait on parts).

As for myself, I've bought two used Miele washers, one used dryer, and couldn't be happier*. I paid a total of $200 for the 3 units and I consider them to be 'worth fixing' as opposed to many of the other machines on the market currently. The days of appliances lasting 20 years is rapidly coming to an end, unfortunately.

* Okay, I'll be happier once I finally get the bearing replaced...


CLICK HERE TO GO TO GrahamW's LINK


Post# 497135 , Reply# 57   2/17/2011 at 13:17 (4,671 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Prices for Miele washers in the UK start at about £600-650 if you get a good deal online... up until a few years ago before the recession and everything going up in price you could easily grab one for £450 - they've gone up slightly in price again recently due to the very nice recent VAT rise.

 

Of course, you also have to bear in mind that the Miele model sold in the US is equivalent to their TOL model sold here, the TOL ones sell for about £1000, however we get much more "basic" versions here too - still the same quality with all the basics you need to wash, just without the fancier control panels.

 

Take care,

 

Jon


Post# 497141 , Reply# 58   2/17/2011 at 13:40 (4,671 days old) by Pingmeep ()        

So because the greenback is low $1620 would be a good start for a top of the line Miele in the US. Of course they have to ship em and have a markup for the dealer etc. I can't wait for the Maytag Maxima's to come out in April. Will be interesting to see the prices and build quality compared to a Miele.

Post# 497144 , Reply# 59   2/17/2011 at 13:47 (4,671 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hi 3Belt,

 

In Australia they start from $1699 and go all the way up to $3699, we only get the 6.5kg 24" machines here.

 

You need to use one to compare what it holds.  Going from a DD 27" whirlpool to an older generation 5.5kg Miele, I fit more in the Miele every time.  I can pack the Miele full, and I mean pack and still get a clean wash with three rinses in about 60 minutes.  In the DD Whirly, you lightly load or run the risk of getting things chewed up.  In the Australian progams, a cottons 40degC wash, with two rinses takes 40mins by default.

 

I would like a little extra capacity some days, and when the 7.5kg models make it Australia, I would consider replacing my machine.  The 7.5kg machine is still 24" but has an extra 10L of volume over my older model.  That 10L will give me all the capacity I need.  I would never manage to fill a machine that has a 80-100L volume.

 

Regarding costs, when the Duet and Neptune were both available here, the Neptune started at around $2600 and the Duet at $3600, which is probably a good reason why they didnt sell too many.

 

Regards

 

Nathan

 




This post was last edited 02/17/2011 at 14:03
Post# 497147 , Reply# 60   2/17/2011 at 13:51 (4,671 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
@Brisnat81/Nathan

The Duet (Dreamspace here) costed 3600 AUD?!?! That's obscene! And that machine is all plastic! That's more than twice the cost it has here! I wonder why!?

Post# 497172 , Reply# 61   2/17/2011 at 15:13 (4,671 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Nathan is correct....

ronhic's profile picture

...Our prices for Miele are not dissimilar to the the US and I can promise you that Miele have no trouble finding buyers either. Mind, we have had Miele appliances here since the very late 1970's or early 1980's and have excellent service coverage - Most towns with populations of over 5000 have access to a close service agent based on my check of the Miele website yesterday.

 

On the subject of capacity....

 

3Belt, the USA is basically on its' own when it comes to using the CU FT measurement for capacity. Certainly it tells you how much you can STORE in the drum, but it doesn't tell you how much you can WASH in it....as evidenced by the US governments own list reproduced by Matt above and originally posted (I think) by you.

 

This list tells us that for every given CU FT capacity, there is an equivalent LB or KG test capacity...

 

So, at 3.80 CU FT, the US Government says that the test load is 6.99KG and at 3.20 CU FT, 5.85kg....now my maths is pretty reasonable so that should make a 4.40 CU FT machine have a test capacity of about 8.15KG

 

There are at least 20 machines on our market with capacities of 8KG or GREATER that sit in a 24" frame....

 

Now, stay with me here....

 

In other country's, such as the UK, all of Europe, Asia and Australia, we use the LB or KG measurement for capacity. In Oz, machines are tested for the energy efficiency, water consumption and ability to rinse a FULL capacity load on a stated cycle BEFORE being allowed an energy and water rating label (which they can't sell without).

 

So those dinky, teeny, 'small frame 24" machines' are sold in every other country outside of North America rated at their FULL WASH LOAD capacity, not by some inconsequential, nonsensical, unusable and perfectly ridiculous measurement that is CU FT and foisted upon the US population. 

 

A 24" Miele machine sold in the US will wash and rinse perfectly the equivalent of a 3.50 CU FT machine (6.5KG or 14.5LB) regardless of what measurement standard the US try to tell you, the public, it will wash.....

 

....and so will any other European machine rated at 6.5KG in its' home country


Post# 497189 , Reply# 62   2/17/2011 at 16:02 (4,671 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Ronic;

The issue is we American are NOT 24" buying machines marketed to Europe, OZ etc. It is the 24" machine made for the us market. The few that do buy 24" machines sold here, the legal specs show they are smaller in capacity; ie will wash less clothes.

The actual legal US number is not exactly the physical volume.

Two us machines with the exact same spin baskets can have different legal capacities; since one has a better wash cycle, better software, better design, mixes articles better.

So the us spec already rates via performance and those Meile 24" machines sold here are at the bottom of the barrel in capacity with low 2.52 and 2.3 numbers. ie the legal rating of the 2.52 cuft Miele is only 63 percent of a normal 4.0 washer, thus it is called smaller. Thus legally they are machines that will wash less stuff than a normal machine sold here

It really does not matter if a 24" Miele washer sold in the UK can wash 10Kg worth of clothes. It is not the same washer sold here.


Post# 497192 , Reply# 63   2/17/2011 at 16:12 (4,671 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
My goodness 3beltwesty, are you saying that a US Miele washer with the same drum as a European Miele cannot wash the same amount of laundry as it's European counterpart?

Post# 497196 , Reply# 64   2/17/2011 at 16:28 (4,671 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Umm

 

Well I have a Miele washer sold to the USA and yes it can wash the same amount as its counter part in Europe and Au even though it has the USA load specs.  If you look at the data plate you will see the kg specs as well.  I was doubtful at first, but it actually holds washes, and rinses more than my previous super capacity top loader did.  Cannot comment on the larger front loaders because I have no experience with them.


Post# 497199 , Reply# 65   2/17/2011 at 16:41 (4,671 days old) by pingmeep ()        

@3beltwesty
"Two us machines with the exact same spin baskets can have different legal capacities; since one has a better wash cycle, better software, better design, mixes articles better."

Wasn't IEC equivalent cubic feet just what a similar conventional Top Load washer would have used in space for the agitator added to the actual cubic feet of a front loader minus loss for baffles spray arms and the like?

I thought the whole standard was made to compare FL to TL machines.

It's interesting that most commercial makers use the same Dry Linen Capacity to rate their machines as the EU uses in rating residential machines.


Post# 497203 , Reply# 66   2/17/2011 at 16:49 (4,671 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

RE "My goodness 3beltwesty, are you saying that a US Miele washer with the same drum as a European Miele cannot wash the same amount of laundry as it's European counterpart?"

Would you bet your house that one can?

Nobody here even has the two variants to compare; thus one has few facts.


One cannot here even legally say that a 24" us miele with a 2.52 IEC drum washes the same amount of clothes as Maytag FL with a 4.0 IEC. This bothers non usa folks; their beloved washer is rated as smaller in capacity that what mainstream folks want.

If the 24" Miele here really could magically wash the same amount of clothes as a 30" machine with an 7.0 cuft ; its IEC number would be higher and be 7 also.



Post# 497207 , Reply# 67   2/17/2011 at 17:03 (4,671 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        
Well excuse me...

foraloysius's profile picture
But I think we were comparing American toploaders (you yourself even brought up an Amana toploader) with European frontloaders. Where did that 7.0 cu ft. slip into the discussion?

Post# 497212 , Reply# 68   2/17/2011 at 17:27 (4,671 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Didn't  we use to use pounds for top loaders? What year did USA start using IEC?


Post# 497222 , Reply# 69   2/17/2011 at 18:06 (4,671 days old) by pingmeep ()        

@jerrod6 I.E.C. cubic feet equivalence came out late 2000 or early 2001 iirc.



Post# 497223 , Reply# 70   2/17/2011 at 18:15 (4,671 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Compare

chestermikeuk's profile picture
We just might!!! guess what I`m about to start road testing against the
V-Zug - 8kg,
Asko - 6kg
Hotpoint Aqualtis - 9kg &
Hoover Vision - 9kg





CLICK HERE TO GO TO chestermikeuk's LINK


Post# 497310 , Reply# 71   2/17/2011 at 23:38 (4,670 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
3Belt

ronhic's profile picture

Yes, actually it is true...

 

The US measurement is on overall drum VOLUME, not what the US government tests the washer with....see how much VOLUME 8.15KG actually takes up in the 4.40 CU FT drum and you'll finally see our point.

 

This is the actual quantity that the government states they should be able to wash.....which is fine if you wish to hold a centric view, but what we are saying is that a European machine rated at 6.5 KG in Europe will have a VOLUME for the US market of around 2.5 CU FT (4.5 KG),  but it was designed to HOLD and WASH 6.5 KG.......which they do.

 

So if that means it has, for the rest of the world, a FUNCTIONAL CAPACITY the same as an American 3.50 CU FT machine, then it would be good of you to simply accept it - we know what we're talking about.

 

...and yes, many of us do have an issue when people won't listen to what we say. Our experience and opinions as long term users of these machines count. The mere fact that there are several hundred million European, Asian, Australian and other nationalities who use the same style of machine and know what they're doing, what their machines hold AND that they are, almost without exception, 24" washers should give you some indication that we are correct about what we can put in them....

 

...now about those even smaller 18" X 24" teeny weeny European Top Load, tumble washers.....

 

 


Post# 497311 , Reply# 72   2/17/2011 at 23:41 (4,670 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Mike....

ronhic's profile picture

...can you get access to an American 27" machine to try and sort this mess out for us?


Post# 497329 , Reply# 73   2/18/2011 at 02:55 (4,670 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
...now about those even smaller 18" X 24" teeny ween

They hold just as much as a standard teeny weeny front loader washer ;)

Oh and it's not 18x24 " it's 15,7x23,6 ;) even smaller! Heheheh

The machine pictured here is rated at 8kg of dry load! That would put it in par with a 4,2 cubic feet machine while having a drum less than half that size at only 56 litres. Using the American standard that would be just a 8 lbs machine... (3,6 kg)

I understand the difference but please, consider this, I just want to explain! To wash that amount of laundry in such a small tub you need more time than doing a half load but since a "standard/test" wash here lasts 120-150 minutes, nobody cares and if you want your wash done quicker, the very same machine has a 14 or 32 minutes refresh programme for 2,5 kg of laundry or a 44 minutes one at 40°C for 4 kg of laundry!

That would be the "standard" time for an American machine so the load needs all the free space possible in the tub to turn and splash so it can get clean in that small amount of time. Exactly why those programmes are defined upon a smaller load!


CLICK HERE TO GO TO dj-gabriele's LINK


Post# 497330 , Reply# 74   2/18/2011 at 03:10 (4,670 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture

Smart bum Gabriele.....

 

.....Yep, they are fabulous things...




This post was last edited 02/18/2011 at 04:18
Post# 497336 , Reply# 75   2/18/2011 at 04:36 (4,670 days old) by favorit ()        
Also consider the "profile wash" thing adds time

European made frontloaders, even Electrolux (also as Aeg and Zanussi/Rex) and Whirlpool (also as Bauknecht, Ignis, Vedette, Laden..) stop heating water when 40°C is achieved, then they wash @ this temp for 15 minutes to enhance enzimatic action. Then the inernal heater engages again to reach the target temp (provided it is higher than 40°C/105°F)
That' s another reason of longer washing times in euro machines

BTW now I get why so many people in North America complain about OOB issues ( machines that take forever to get the proper balance while distributing) : that bad habit to ***underload*** the drum (expecially with very adsorbant loads such as towelling) is the best way to stress the machine : worse balance and more bearing wear.

I bet that commercial laundries in North America use tumble washers actually in the same way they are used elsewhere in the world (say with the 1:10 ratio ---> 10 cubic decimetres/litres of drum volume for each Kg of regular cotton load, 1:20 for permapress, 1:25 for delicates)


Post# 497354 , Reply# 76   2/18/2011 at 06:25 (4,670 days old) by Pingmeep ()        

Gosh Gabriele why did you have to use the Hoover Dynamic 8+ Top as an example?

The detractors will have a field day what with Ballerinas, clown car capacity etc, and tutu washloads.

Well just look...


Seriously if it had a faster max spin and old Hoover reliability I'd love one of these.


Post# 497357 , Reply# 77   2/18/2011 at 06:42 (4,670 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
8 KG + !

ronhic's profile picture

...in a 40cm width (that's 20") machine........

 

I can hear Catweazel now 'what elec-tricery is this?'.....

 

....so much capacity, so little space....where will it all end?


Post# 497374 , Reply# 78   2/18/2011 at 09:24 (4,670 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Overloading causes more failures, not underloading.



Favorit RE

"BTW now I get why so many people in North America complain about OOB issues ( machines that take forever to get the proper balance while distributing) : that bad habit to ***underload*** the drum (expecially with very adsorbant loads such as towelling) is the best way to stress the machine : worse balance and more bearing wear. "


A FL washer has the least stress on its ball bearings when there is nothing in the spin basket; There are no balance issues; there only is the spin baskets weight. ( this about zero load confuses the software designed to sense load size, that is the delay)

As one adds more items the imbalance grows. The dynamic imbalance might tend to drop with European overloading; ie so many items that the clothes are just one solid wad; ie the items are one glued together blob. From an engineering viewpoint the imbalance is zero with no load and zero when totally full, ie one has the entire drum full of wine corks or golf balls so no cork or ball can move at all.

Bearings fail in washers due to leaky water seals in 99.9 percent of the time. The bearings never see wearout with classical bearing fatigue in most all cases. The water seal leaks the 52100 bearing steel corrodes like total hell; the bearing thus dies 100 times quicker.

It is a complete farce to say an unloaded FL washer somehow stresses the machine more than a full one. The bearings see less load, the water level is lower thus the water seal "sees" less water slashing. The drive motor's windings see a lower load and thus run cooler. The motor driver board sees less load, its switching transistors run cooler.

Overloading a machine all the time is called "cratering" a machine in usa service houses. Ie you haul loads of bricks with a Yugo and get axle bearing failures, one overloads washers and has them die quicker, ie one runs a cheap home concrete mixer so long in one day that the plastic gears heat up and break sooner.

In the USA the "delay" in the beginning of a wash cycle is called "balancing" by lay folks, but really it is often just "sensing the load size" and "detangling and mixing" . Since machine makers get a tax credit if little water is used, the software spends time sensing the load size via motor current to move the drum in oddball ways. Ie the government doe not want the machine to be like 1950 where one weighed the clothes on the washers spring door and then set the water level manually. This would save folks time, but the water police would have heart attacks, plus the maker would not get a tax credit. I would pay 100 dollars extra to have a machine with full manual controls; one for water level as a dumb dial, one with less software fart around factor.

Once a washer is used for several years the water seal often leaks. Filling the machine with more clothes has the machine using more water, thus the tubs level of water is higher. The water seal sees more water via splashing with a full loaded machine, thus one kills off the machine way quicker with full loads.

The primary reason FL bearings fail is due to a leaky water seal. After it starts leaking the size of the bearings and fatigue is less of an issue. One basically corrodes the heck out of the bearings whether big or small, since one has 52100 ball bearing steel exposed to dirty water, soaps and crap from corroding aluminum spiders too. This rusty ball bearing also leaks back rust on to white clothes too.


Post# 497384 , Reply# 79   2/18/2011 at 09:57 (4,670 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
If the 24" Miele here really could magically wash the sa

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

Wanna know why?

Because it is a far superior machine in every way, and is designed to be used correctly, not just having a few tshirts chucked in it.

It is a machine with appropriate cycle lengths, wash temperatures, accurate pressor switches and well designed drum rotations, which allows it to be filled to capacity.

Because it is a far better made machine, even if it is overloaded (which it is not, it is just loaded to capacity) it will not damage the machine at all.

So actually, I would say the way that ridiculously huge machines are marketed in the U.S., which actually can't be filled properly whilst still giving good results, are fine examples of "snake oil" advertising


Post# 497393 , Reply# 80   2/18/2011 at 11:04 (4,670 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
there has to be a ENGINEERING technical reason, not just a m



Legally the 24" machines sold in the USA hold less clothes than a common 27" frame washer.

Matt;

If a engine that displaces say 400 cc like my Briggs and Stratton 1985 lawnmower only puts out 11 HP versus 30 HP for a 400cc motorcycle; there are real engineering reasons why.

The mower only has an 7.5 to 1 compression ratio; it is designed to run on crap flat old gasoline . it is a flathead engine, it only works at a max of 3600rpm

The race rocket rice burner bike 400cc engine is overhead valve, its max RPMs are double, the compression ratio is higher, the fuel system is better. Its engine is really not designed for poor gas with a low octane.

For a smaller volume 24" washer to wash as much clothes as a 27" frame's spin basket that is 50 percent larger there has to be a technical ENGINEERING reason, not just claim or brand name.

With the 400cc mower versus a 400cc motorcycle; there are actual engineering reasons why the motorcycle puts out 30 Hp versus the mower's 11HP.

With two FL washer's of 2.5 and 3.75 cuft actual physical volumes, to have the smaller machine wash as much as the bigger machine requires more than snake oil marketing; there has to be a technical reason(s).

(1)Ie maybe Europe has less water police and less washer maker tax kickbacks and thus the washer can use more water.

(2)Maybe European's sense of what is clean is less than Americans, ie it doesnt matter if a dirty poop filled diaper did not move with respect to ones other clothes. :)

(3)Maybe Europe has those magical wash balls in washers I saw in Vancover BC back in 1990, that the US FTC would not allow here to be advertised since they found them to be BS.

(4)Maybe Europes smaller 24" machines have longer wash cycles than American ones.

(5)Maybe Europes smaller 24" machines have unobtanium spin baskets that warp the universe so they can hold more clothes.



A washer or engine that has just 1/2 to 2/3rds the volume of another does not magically wash the same amount of clothes, or have the same HP output.

The USA's spin basket is larger and holds more clothes. This is very basic grade school mathmatics of figuring the volume of a cylinder.

600cc engine has a 50 percent larger displacement than a 400cc one. If a 400cc motor has the same HP as a 600cc one, there are technical reasons why.

Maybe the USA should import Concrete mixers from Europe, since one can place 9 yards of concrete in a truck that is only 2/3's in size?. Ie a standard USA truck holds 8 to 9 yards on concrete. With superior European technology their 6 yard truck can hold 9 yards in the usa?




Post# 497397 , Reply# 81   2/18/2011 at 11:17 (4,670 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
Well

When I fill my parent's Miele fully and weight the load, it weights 6kg (13lbs). It is obvious that what is considered "full" in an American machine is almost half filled by the standards of our machines.

A half load in a drum thats 110l in volume is the same amount of laundry as a full load in a drum that is 55l in volume, therefore, if the larger machine can only cope when half filled, and the smaller machine can be loaded correctly and still wash and rinse (probably) better than the larger machine, then the smaller machine holds just as much.

Simple physics really.

I'm done with this discussion now, as usual, the logic is there, but some people just refuse to accept it.

Have fun washing 5 shirts at a time in your massive machine!

Matt


Post# 497398 , Reply# 82   2/18/2011 at 11:19 (4,670 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Well

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Not a lot you can say to that diatribe is there!!!

I have enjoyed your posts from an engineering point of view, your commercial machines & restores have been fascinating to watch in progress...

Your Westy colour coded machines we could spend more time on as they bear similar resemblence to our English Electric washers..

But, the way you are proceeding with the You and the Europeans makes me wonder who you are and if you are not another person recently joined out to make a ruck!!!

They are washers people and the M word does provoke a lot of attitude!!!

Happy washing


Post# 497406 , Reply# 83   2/18/2011 at 12:06 (4,670 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

I think it's fair to say at this stage that it isn't just Miele washers, but the majority of European washers that will perform to the same level.

 

Like I said in another post, it's always interesting to see the differences in attitudes between the US and the UK.

 

Jon


Post# 497407 , Reply# 84   2/18/2011 at 12:18 (4,670 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Never heard that a "larger machine can only cope when ha

Matt;

RE "if the larger machine can only cope when half filled, and the smaller machine can be loaded correctly and still wash and rinse (probably) better than the larger machine, then the smaller machine holds just as much. "

Here many folks like me use a larger "volume machines are just half full" because that is what have to wash, ie not due to the machine will not hold more. ie I purposely own a truck than than haul a 4x8 sheet of plywood and most the time I the truck is only 1/4 full and with no plywood.

Ie I purposely want to wash a weeks worth of items than buy more clothes "to fill the washer"

Here I have never heard that a "larger machine can only cope when half filled" before getting on this board.

If anything it might be a water police load sense issue; ie US government mandated software/programs to chase that tax credit, the carrot. The only reason my current LG might not wash a giant crammed full load is if the water sense only gave me 1 or 2 bars; when it needs a 3 or 4.

The units software that senses load at the start of a wash cycle defines if one has a 1,2,3 or 4 bars of load level in water. The unit is really sensing torque or ripple torque when the spin basket does its sense motions. You could pack the machine what call full and the machine still might only give one 2 out of 4 bars.

With my the new machine about every wash I do is just 1 or 2 bars; even with the drum 1/2 full. Even with the drum crammed full with gobs of stuff one might get 3 out of 4 bars of water. Never has the machine hit 4 bars yet. I may place some free weights in there held in by wood to see what the software is sensing. Ie place two 5Kg weighs 180 degrees apart, and another time on 10Kg weight so it is totally at one place.

The only reason a 27" frame FL washer here could not cope with a full load is due to the water police's tying ones hands, ie will that packed full washer be sensed as really a full load and thus one uses more water.



Post# 497413 , Reply# 85   2/18/2011 at 12:45 (4,670 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Well.

mrb627's profile picture

Seems Miele doesn't want their machines filled to the hilt either.  This is from the 3035 manual.

 

Malcolm


Post# 497415 , Reply# 86   2/18/2011 at 13:07 (4,670 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
"the items need room to move"


RE


"Seems Miele doesn't want their machines filled to the hilt either. This is from the 3035 manual."

That is what I have heard my entire life too with tumbler washers.
"the items need room to move"


(1)Being a skeptic, I still have a hard time believing that If I buy a US 27" W4802 or W4842 Meile here with its IEC 4.0 cuft drum that is is really going to wash 50 percent more clothes than a Maytag, Whirlpool, LG, GE with the same IEC rating of 4.0.


(2) Being a skeptic, I still have a hard time believing that If I buy a US 24" W3033, W3035 or W3039 Meile here with its 2.52 or 2.3 cuft IEC drum that is is really going to wash the same clothes as a Maytag, Whirlpool, LG, GE FL washer with a IEC rating of 4.0.

I wonder if Miele usa would state in writing and out up cash for such claims (1) or (2)?

Ie one buys the washer and Miele puts up 2 to 3 grand to a third party (say Ralph Nader) to buy the unit(s) back if the claims are untrue.

ie one finds out if the hokem floats or sinks.

From a washer makers standpoint this could be great publicity or bad PR if the test fails.


Post# 497417 , Reply# 87   2/18/2011 at 13:17 (4,670 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hi Malcolm.

That instruction only appears in the USA manuals. Not in the manuals for the rest of the world. That would appear to correspond with the volume vs weight testing table posted above.

In relation to the water police. For a machine here to achieve a 4 star rating (which is where rebates kick in) the machine must wash and rinse 1kg of clothes in less than 10l of water.

Other than when washing duvets is there anyone here that ever loads a 27" machine until the drum is full on a regular basis?

Nathan


Post# 497425 , Reply# 88   2/18/2011 at 13:42 (4,670 days old) by favorit ()        

"Filling the machine with more clothes has the machine using more water, thus the tubs level of water is higher"

3belt, that's wrong : the machine uses more water **to saturate the load** BUT the water level is always that same one for the stated cycle (low on cottons, med in woolens, very high on delicates). Forget about PCB and other electronic devices : a quality, precise pressure switch is enough to have the job done. Even stoneage quality frontloaders (not only mieles) stop tumbling and fill to recover the proper level when required. Just surf on YouTube and watch them. These machines were made when PCboards were just rocket science *LOL*

Also these stoneage machines had no balance sensors : heavy machines had very little "shaking" issues, while light ones were good "walkers"
Everyone who has used stoneage frontloaders knows that half loads are harder to balance ... ask Louis (Foraloysius) what happens when the short Lavamat 220 (or worse the 240 with 850 rmp) tumbler toploader is half loaded *LOL*


CLICK HERE TO GO TO favorit's LINK


Post# 497428 , Reply# 89   2/18/2011 at 14:08 (4,670 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        
Software puzzled? Sorry I got sidetracked!

haxisfan's profile picture
3beltwesty "zero load confuses the software designed to sense load size, that is the delay": I cannot agree with this statement, unless such procedure is reserved to some machines... unknown to myself. As far as I have seen, in the absence of a wash load in the appliance basket the software will not take any measures therefore the basket will be allowed to enter the spin phase with no further delays. However, in some cases there could be more action involved simply because it's programmed to execute in such a way.

I noticed that we tend to generalise too much when it comes to possible ways our washing machines carry out their work... I know we can apply physics and logic but we often fail to consider all contributing factors to a particular physical behaviour. It's often deemed that a full load has the potential to bear a 'zero imbalance' factor but this is not always the case. For the very same reasons you mentioned, in this scenario, the items in the basket are not free to move therefore hard to shuffle and reorganise, thus depending on the composition and configuration of the articles which make up the load (e.g. the basket in the washer is chock-a-block with small nylon/acrylic items and one bulky towelling item which is unfortunately positioned in such a way to make one side of the load muck heavier than the other).

By contrast, it is often possible to carry out a successful spin cycle with a small/smaller load if the same has been distributed fairly around the drum in such a way that it causes a tolerable degree of balance/imbalance which falls within the margins set by the software. The same degree of imbalance will not be tolerated with a fuller load because such imbalance would multiply once the load has entered the spin cycle. On the same lines, a very small load might as well cram to one side of the drum causing a visual imbalance, however the software will allow it to enter the spin mode due to its reduced weight which will create an amount of force easily counteracted by the means engineered around the whole outer/inner tub structure, e.g. suspension system and stabilizing weights. All the examples/textual evidence I provided in this comment are not based on frequent occurrence as it's just an attempt to make an anti generalizing statement.

Mieleforever, sorry for my little personal sidetrack from the question you initially raised in this thread, 'why a Miele?'. Anyway... if we keep this up it'll be us asking you 'why a Miele?' LOL
Anyway, although, I wouldn't have one, I'm still convinced that they are the most advanced and highest quality household appliances that man has ever attempted to build and a representation of a pure concentration of passion and dedication for such a market sector by human kind.


Post# 497430 , Reply# 90   2/18/2011 at 14:09 (4,670 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Culture varies around the world



Nathan Here I have no duvets ; beds here are twin, full, queen and king and others.

A small comforter for a full bed will not fit into my 1976 FL washer with its spin basket of 2.5 to 2.6 cuft; it fits well into the LG machine with a 3.9 cuft drum rated at IEC 4.2

here is a shot of the comforter that will not fit in a old 1976 westy drum; but will fit ok and wash ok in the newer FL washer.

Culture varies around the world, here many americans are probably not going to go the the local coin laundromat several times a year to wash a comforter or larger load of items.

They often just buy a normal washer like the 4.2 IEC LG machine here. An normal washer sold here is made to handle things like a comforter.


The old machine like my 1976 westy has a 30 year record of being too small in drum size; ie few folks bought them. ie what Europeans want and uses Americans have already rejected as being too small.


Post# 497437 , Reply# 91   2/18/2011 at 14:43 (4,670 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
"Load sense rotate, wobble, spin sequence" is at sta


RE:

3beltwesty "zero load confuses the software designed to sense load size, that is the delay": I cannot agree with this statement, unless such procedure is reserved to some machines... unknown to myself. As far as I have seen, in the absence of a wash load in the appliance basket the software will not take any measures therefore the basket will be allowed to enter the spin phase with no further delays. However, in some cases there could be more action involved simply because it's programmed to execute in such a way. :

Here in the USA a washer senses the load size first, then washes the clothe; then they are rinsed, SPIN is used to extract the water. ie it is the end of the cycle!

A USA FL machine often goes into a "Load sense rotate. wobble, spin sequence" at the START of the entire Wash/Rinse/Spin cycle; it is used to set the water level. If the washers software senses a larger load; it uses more water and this is an input in the software, besides the water level sensor.

With an odd load the "Load sense rotate. wobble, spin sequence" as the start takes longer. The machine wants a good estimate as to what is is washing. Maybe European machines are fully manual, ie no government trying to reduce water usage?

Here a washer never enters the SPIN phase at the start, it load senses, then washes, then rinses, then spins.


Post# 497439 , Reply# 92   2/18/2011 at 14:49 (4,670 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Hi 3belt

The cultural difference in the rest of the world would be to use duvets with a removable cover. The cover can be washed regularly and I air the duvet on the line every other month and have it dry cleaned every other year. Full size blankets fit in the 24" machines so it isn't too much of an impost every other year to get the duvet professionally cleaned.

Single bed down duvets fit in my 24" machine as do queen size acrylic. Anything bigger than that and I just send it out.

That's why everything just fits in the smaller units.

Nathan


Post# 497442 , Reply# 93   2/18/2011 at 14:54 (4,670 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
UK Manual

mrb627's profile picture

This is what the UK manual for a 5740 instructs,


Post# 497443 , Reply# 94   2/18/2011 at 14:57 (4,670 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        
Favorit

foraloysius's profile picture
An aunt of mine had an older BOL AEG frontloader, I think it was a Lavamat F or so. The manual stated that only full loads could be spun. Half loads should be taken out of the machine and had to be spin dried in a separate spin dryer, or towels should be added to the machine so it could do a spin with a full load.

Post# 497447 , Reply# 95   2/18/2011 at 15:07 (4,670 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Here the water level in the tub and total water used varies



Favorit

RE "Filling the machine with more clothes has the machine using more water, thus the tubs level of water is higher"

3belt, that's wrong : the machine uses more water **to saturate the load** BUT the water level is always that same one for the stated cycle (low on cottons, med in woolens, very high on delicates)."

Here a FL washer's "total water usage" is not the same, it varies with the load size. The tub's level of water is varied too.

Thus with a stock Cotton setting If I only wash 2 pairs of blue jeans the machine senses a dinky load; ie 1 bar. It uses a lower amount of water. One can have the discharge water go in to an empty drum and it will be filled less with a small load of clothes. I actually have done this on my machine using 5 gallon buckets.


Case 2 larger load ; with the same stock Cotton setting ; If I only wash 10 pairs of blue jeans the machine senses a larger load ie 2 bars or maybe 3. It uses a MORE water. One can have the discharge water go in to an empty drum(s) and it will be filled more with a larger load of clothes.

One gets more discharge water volume in the buckets in case #2 with the larger load than case #1 with the smaller load.

*****Maybe this explains the constant dogma by non usa folks preaching for fully loading washers; ie your washers do not use less water with a smaller load?


A 1950 Westinghouse washer has this technology, except the user is the computer.

You measure the load size with the westy spring loaded door spring, then manually set the water level. ie "weight to save" is the Westinghouse slogan from 60 years ago.

Besides using the water level sensor as tub level feedback ; the modern LG FL washer uses the 1,2,3 and 4 bar load level as to how much to spray and rinse too.

Here the water level in the tub and total water used varies with the load size


Post# 497453 , Reply# 96   2/18/2011 at 15:39 (4,670 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Here is an interesting thread from another site about the Miele W4820 27" frame washer

CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK


Post# 497459 , Reply# 97   2/18/2011 at 15:55 (4,670 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        
Now I'm confused...

haxisfan's profile picture
3beltwesty you qouted my statement in which I was talking about potential imbalance symptoms with different load configurations and then you went on talking about load size and wash sequences... I'm lost!

As to automatic water usage according to load size, most European FL do sense the load and adjust all the wash parameters accordingly... including for some the choice of most adequate drum rhythms for the fabric being washed (based on rate of absorbency). I own a budget FL and when it senses a very small loads it carries out only 2 rinses with a low water level instead of 3 with low water level or 3 with medium water level depending on the amount of times the soleinoid valve has opened to let more current water reach the tub. Having said that... for the sake of allowing a washing machine to be even more efficient, it should be filled to max capacity (without overloading it of course).

Just a quick example: generally, a machine with a max capacity of 6kg will wash 6kg of cottons using 45l... so, in this case we have a ratio Kg/l (45/6) of 7.5l which is the average water required for a kilo of laundry. If the same machine is set to wash 3kg of laundry it would use less water but it will not be directly proportional to the amount of laundry loaded, so let's say that the washer will require 35l to carry out the wash cycle with 3kg of laundry which in turn equates to a ratio of (35/3) 11.6l... thus higher water consumption per kg and so forth. This patterns usually affects automatic programmes 'fuzzy logic' enabled (or whatever other smart word you want to use), a different scenario is involved with other kind of cycles such as partial programmes, quick/rapid cycles, daily washes and so forth.


Post# 497462 , Reply# 98   2/18/2011 at 16:01 (4,670 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Everyone Is Running They...... So Am Joining In The Fray

launderess's profile picture
One, Miele service and or part information *can* be found on the Internet if one knows how to search and where. I have them, not to mention a huge service book of Miele kitchen appliances (mainly ovens, cooktops etc...).

Miele tends to keep such information close to it's vest, at least as far as North American market is concerned for several reasons. One, the parts aren't available on these shores except from Miele. So it's not exactly clear what one would do with the information anyway. For those whom wish DIY, Miele will sell,ship and give information over the telephone and or via email/fax on how to do the repairs.

Regarding sales of various units, including "Little Giants".

To the best of my knowledge Miele does not *give* display units away to dealers, they have to purhase them, and as with everything else the stuff ain't cheap. If you think the market for "rinky dink" washers that cost *thousands)is small, try selling commercial machines that require 220v power (no and ifs or buts), and cost several thousands of dollars. In short your average Miele dealer isn't going to bother to even know about such things much less sell them. According to Miele persons I've spoken with the few USA domestic customers have "Little Giants" installed in domestic settings. Even then those sales were mainly pre-real estate crash when everyone was building "MacMansions" and or wanted commercial laundry appliances, perhaps for a very wealthy family with lots of children and or fine linens.

If dealers purchase Miele appliances for display, they are stuck with them until they sell, or Miele agrees to allow a price reduction. On rare cases Miele will take the units back, but even then nothing is sent back to Germany. Miele USA will allow certain employees to "bid" or otherwise purchase such units, or they may sit around until corporate finds a use for them.

Regarding Capacity:

My older Miele is rated for 11lbs and holds just that. Many newer front loaders both 24" and 27" may state they hold more, but if you read the owner's manual one is advised to load the washer 3/4's or less. My Miele as with others of it's class was built and can wash 11lbs of wash every day up to it's duty cycle limit for years without problems.

Am also here to tell you the Miele holds more, much more than the small 24" Whirlpool toploading portable I nabbed last year.

Miele units not matter what they are will always cost more because of shipping, taxes, duties and so forth. Miele has not gone the route of Bosch and build an NA plant, nor does it seem likely to go that route. There is no free lunch when it comes to appliances. You can either build quality that will cost, or pound out units for the masses that cost little.

As for purchasing a commercial front loader for home use. Well suppose one could do that, but not all dealers can or will sell to domestic end users. They also may not offer service or even warranty coverage under those situations. You can purchase whatever you want from fleaPay or elsewhere, but if something goes south, you could be on your own.

There is also the fact that until one gets into *very* expensive commercial units, cycles are limited and often difficult to change, or at least not as easy as simply pressing a button or turning a knob.

Miele makes all manner and sort of washers and dryers that never will see this side of the Atlantic. Much of it having to do with us being one of the few places left on earth relying on mainly 120v power for domestic use. Please do not go on about how many homes have "dryer outlets" and so froth. Obviously this was not the case for Miele never sold enough 220v powered units to make a major stake in here, and now only sells 120v units. Indeed while most all commercial units from the smallest to largest rely upon 220v power even without heaters, aside from perhaps a few Asko and maybe Bosch models *all* domestic front loaders sold here run on 120v.



Post# 497466 , Reply# 99   2/18/2011 at 16:29 (4,670 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

joe_in_philly's profile picture
I don't want to contribute to the Euro-American War on this thread, but I do want to clarify one point about water levels. Not all washers use a set water level.

My washer, a Whirlpool made Kenmore HE3t, varies the water level based on the size of the load. It measures the amount of water it takes to reach a set level, then adds a percentage more. So a small load of towels has a lower water level than a larger load of towels. When I say water level, I mean the height of the puddle as the washer tumbles, not the level of water when the tumbling pauses and the water drains out of the saturated load, raising the water level.

It doesn't even measure the water level in the rinses, it just added a calculated amount more based on how much was used during the wash. Actually, it can't measure the water level while it fills for the rinse because it keeps the drum spinning while it fills.





Post# 497469 , Reply# 100   2/18/2011 at 16:48 (4,670 days old) by favorit ()        
my godness !

3belt,
this seem a dialogue between deaf people ... *LOL*

"Same water level for different sized loads" DOES NOT mean "same amount of water", so both of us agree about the fact "bigger load = more water, smaller load = less water". Your buckets example is obvious.

I was just pointing out that the water level will be the same BUT the difference is in the amount of water required to have that very level with different load sizes

IMHO it's not matter of "I'm right, you're wrong" or worse "USA vs EU". We' d try to "walk with other posters shoes" to figure out what they actually mean :-)


Post# 497473 , Reply# 101   2/18/2011 at 17:28 (4,670 days old) by Pingmeep ()        

@Launderess it's a shame that Miele was late to the "dryer plug" converter adapter party and required a 220v plug installed. Supposedly now such a beast runs about $200. Probably would have been worth tens of millions in market share.

As for display units, you are still right although supposedly new dealers can get "favorable financing" to get them started. As for returns and dealer returns there is now a Miele Unboxed store and website. Supposedly a similar service may come to the US. Not sure how well the model will run given you only get a 1 year warranty and cannot purchase an extended warranty. 


 
 


Post# 497485 , Reply# 102   2/18/2011 at 18:45 (4,670 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
SILLY NUMBERS full loads versus 1/2 loads saves me enough to

Haxisfan RE

******"for the sake of allowing a washing machine to be even more efficient, it should be filled to max capacity (without overloading it of course). "


This is only true here is one wants to chase absurdly small numbers!

Just look how small the numbers really are. The old 1976 FL Westinghouse FL washer here in rebuild only uses a max of 30 gallons back in 1976; the lowest of any washer in that era; 114 Liters.

Even today is cost for a full load is rather small. It only takes 0.22 to 0.24 Kwhr for a full 42 minute cycle. The water costs about a penny a gallon. A full load costs 30 cents in water, the electricity is about 3 cents for a wash load.

Washing with the water set level set lower can reduce the outlay to only 20 cents. The soap used here varies with the amount of clothes washed, I use less soap with a smaller load.


Washing a half load of clothes with the 1976 machine costs 23 cents versus about 33 cents with a full load; ie one has wasted 33 - 23= 10 cents.


If I wash 2.5 loads a week with the 1/2 loads; that is 130 loads a year @ 0.23=29.90

If I wash 1.25 loads a week with the full loads; that is 65 loads a year @ 0.33=21.45

I save 8.45 dollars a year by washing full loads versus 1/2 loads; in a mechine from cicra 1976.

*****I have wasted thus 8.45 dollars per year; ie 2.3 cents a day in waste.

The water is so soft here that a jug of All He I buy on sale lasts about a year. I have only used 3 jugs of soap since Katrina in 2005; the total outlay of about less than 20 to 30 bucks max.

Here with the long experience of using the 1976 FL westy for 3 decades ; I really have never found that the machine has to be filled full to wash well. A 3/4, 1/2, or 1/4 load washes just as well too as a full load. I have used FL washers since the 1950's and never heard about this issue before coming to this website.



Thus the comment of:

" for the sake of allowing a washing machine to be even more efficient, it should be filled to max capacity (without overloading it of course)."

saves me 8.45 dollars worth cost in water and electricity per year; assuming my time is worth zero and I want to buy more clothes to fill, the washer in all cases.

Here the 2.3 cents per day loss in cost by just washing what is required is not an issue.


It is more efficient to worry about what my time is worth; versus worrying about saving 2.3 cents in 24 hours; ie 96 millacents per hour. Federal minimum wage is 725 cents per hour, this is 725/0.096 about 7500 times more per hour than the washers waste in doing 1/2 loads. Thus a person earning minimum wage does not worry about such silly small numbers.



The typical person here does not worry about costs in the parts per million level they worry about the costs that matter. Gee do I worry about the 2.3 cents per day washer cost with 1/2 loads; or my cellphone bill of 100 times higher with data plans and extra stuff? The food cost rises are such that last weeks grocery store vist already wiped out that 8.45 dollars per year savings in one store vist due to the massive price increases. With crafty shopping in a few stores one can save many times more than the 8.45 savings.


For the newer LG FL washer; its water usage is less and electrical too. The waste with a 1/2 load versus a full load thus has a giant cost for me of maybe a 1 cent per a day thus worrying about the waste is absurd.



ie I can wash full loads to save money; and in one year I have saved 3.65 dollars; I can buy a big Mac at McDonalds, or a gallon of gasoline; or a beer in bar.


****In the scheme of ones daily costs of existance here; the waste of washing 1/2 versus full loads is not measurable.

I might as well say Germans can payoff Greece's debt by skipping one beer a year.

Thus here whether I wash 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, or full loads I cannot even measure the added cost or savings.

SINCE the cost is not measurable and load size does not change how well stuff is cleaned; here the worry about 1/2 versus full loads is TOTALLY absurd.

It is right up there as worry with UFO's and worrys if an ant on a freight train makes it burn more diesel oil.

In theory it does.


the ant weights 3mg.

The train burns 1 gallon of diesel in 435 miles .

If the train travels to the Sun it has burned 214000 gallons per ton of freight in 93 million miles.

the ant weights 3.3 billionths of a 2000 lb ton.

the ant thus burns 0.000707 gallons of diesel = 0.0027 liters,

ie 2.7 ml. the ant worries about this big amount of diesel; it is 900 times his weight; it might take 2 dozen trip for him to carry this added diesel to the fuel car.

Thus most folks here do not worry about silly numbers; one's TIME is what is used.

Ie it really does not matter in costs at all if I wash with varied machine loadings.

If I saved 1 penny a day; I could by a new car in 1000 + YEARs!



Post# 497494 , Reply# 103   2/18/2011 at 20:41 (4,669 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
What????

ronhic's profile picture

for goodness sake.....

 

'Ants and freight trains'....where did that drivel come from and how on earth (rather than the moon) did this manage to Segway in that direction?

 

 


Post# 497497 , Reply# 104   2/18/2011 at 21:04 (4,669 days old) by mayfan69 (Brisbane Queensland Australia)        
Agreed....

mayfan69's profile picture
'Drivel' is right Chris....

I think somebody just has to prove that they're right and the rest of the world is wrong!



Post# 497498 , Reply# 105   2/18/2011 at 21:21 (4,669 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture

Too true Leon.....


Post# 497499 , Reply# 106   2/18/2011 at 21:27 (4,669 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
What I would like

We have been back and forth, and all over the place on this thread.  Here is what I would like:

 

Those of us that have larger USA/Canadian/Whatever/  FL such as LG, Samsung, Frigidare, Bosch, GE,  Whirlpool, Maytag, Kenmore, Electrolux...Miele, etc.  Please fill you machines with MULTIPLE items so that it is completely full to the top with dry items.  Ignore the manufactures loading instructions. Do several of these loads, posting some pictures/vids of washes and rinses if possible.  Then tell us how YOU think the machine did in regard to washing(cleaning), rinsing and spinning these loads. Include the brand of detergent that was used also.

 

 


Post# 497503 , Reply# 107   2/18/2011 at 21:36 (4,669 days old) by mayfan69 (Brisbane Queensland Australia)        
What a good idea....

mayfan69's profile picture
That sounds like a very good idea Jerrod

Lets see whose willing to give it a go.....


Post# 494177, Reply# 31   02/06/2011 at 10:44 by roscoe62 (Canada)     posts: 63 report offensive post to webmaster @ronhic

Well I put two more towels in my machine today along with eight hand towels that are a fair size so I had in total eight towels about 30x50 in size and eight hand towels 18 x 23 and said, here we go.Lets see if the machine performs differently with a fuller load and it did.
I wasn't impressed, it didn't rinse very well, it seemed to not fill the way it usually does, like the machine was laboring but I did get my hands and arms over the load before I started the machine to make certain it would have the room to tumble. It didn't spin as dry and the machine had one hell of a time trying to get it to balance to go into spin, at one point I left the room it was too antagonizing to watch any more.When it came time to take it out, it was so tangled I felt like setting it all on fire, UHH!!!
Then I had to separate the load into two and redo the rinse but I dried it all together, and it came out kinda hard not as soft as they normally do with just six towels and remember I used no fabric conditioner or dryer sheets period on towels they don't need it.As a rule they dry pretty soft without it but not this time, it could have been longer drying time in the dryer that caused this?
So the answer is NO, a bigger machine does not mean better, it's great for the bulkier items but in my experience it didn't do a better job on a larger load, as it says it should.


 

 

   


Post# 497513 , Reply# 108   2/18/2011 at 23:20 (4,669 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
I asked a very similar question a few weeks ago.....and Rosc

ronhic's profile picture
Post# 497514 , Reply# 109   2/18/2011 at 23:21 (4,669 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
OMG!

ronhic's profile picture

How weird was that ^^^^^^


Post# 497516 , Reply# 110   2/18/2011 at 23:43 (4,669 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA)        

peterh770's profile picture

I went from a Maytag 612 to a Frigidaire 1-18 to the Miele 1918.  The Miele holds the same amount of laundry.  It cleans and rinsed better (once reprogrammed for high water level rinses).  You can argue the numbers all day long, but at the end of the day, if you use your machines intelligently, the small Euro machines can hold just as much as a large US toploader.


Post# 497528 , Reply# 111   2/19/2011 at 04:07 (4,669 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Capacity

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Would be good to have confirmirmations on what goes into what...you can take any machine and as long as you work with its variables, good wash results will ensure...

It may work out only a few cents here and there but when the rest of the planet has mega high prices for water, electricity and gas fuel then you see the difference over than your phone bill...

I think for me I get irked when I still hear "Small Euro" capacity machines, these 60cm washers are "Standard and Normal size over a vast area of this planet, perhaps a more correct terminology should be domestic "Standard and Extra Large or Uber Sized" capacity ...thats the thing with words, definitions are mis-interpreted and points of view go out the window!!!

Wet Clean Anyone!!! Oh When Front Loaders Rinsed Like This!!!






Post# 497529 , Reply# 112   2/19/2011 at 04:22 (4,669 days old) by mayfan69 (Brisbane Queensland Australia)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 497535 , Reply# 113   2/19/2011 at 05:26 (4,669 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Wet Clean Anyone!!! Oh When Front Loaders Rinsed Like This!!

ronhic's profile picture

Oh for a Keymatic!

 

Though in all fairness, my Zanussi built Westinghouse (think John Lewis machine) has 2 deep rinses on the 'quick' cycle....and that works fine for most loads. It's only when it's full of towels or I want a long wash that I let it run a 'normal' cycle


Post# 497585 , Reply# 114   2/19/2011 at 08:06 (4,669 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        

haxisfan's profile picture
3beltwesty... thank you for going at such length to justify your point of view. I'm sure what you're saying makes a lot of sense but it does not unfortunately apply to all places on earth where the usable resources you mentioned are priced well differently. I merely stated a fact... and it is a fact that any washer is more efficient when run with a full load no matter how much by... as the amount of energy, water and even detergent used per kilogram of laundry will never be directly proportional to the decreasing/increasing of a given load of clothes... so, a smaller load entails by all means less use of resources but two half loads will be more wasteful than one full load... period.

And there's more... by looking at your figures and considering them on a wider scale they would alter the concept of waste of resources dramatically: you might as well consider $8.00 to be an insignificant amount for yourself but how many families in the US use washing machines? Try to multiply that $8.00 by the number of users in your country and see what amount of (collective) savings can be achieved.

Yet... you do not need to convince me as I run the washer with any kind or size of load as needed... but if and when I can help, I gather enough items to share the same cycle for the sake of filling up the washer. Again, I don't think you have to go out and squander on clothes and all sorts of textile just for the sake of filling up your washer... the moral: I feel it's important to be aware of the differences highleted in this thread rather than just coming up with a justication for one's actions of the type "well, this is a ridicolous sum of money to save".


Post# 497835 , Reply# 115   2/20/2011 at 00:50 (4,668 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

joe_in_philly's profile picture
I did one load as Jerrod suggested, a fairly large load of towels. I filled it up until I could just get my hand in the top of the load. It washed, rinsed, and spun out the same as usual. Everything is perfectly clean. The main differences are that with really big loads it takes longer for the wash "direct inject" fill (about 5 minutes), the rinse spin fill (about 3.5 minutes), and the spin routine is longer. Instead of a brief spin after the wash, it held the top (intermediate) spin speed for 1 minute, 40 seconds. The final spin added an extra burst and fluff.

It is a 2003 Kenmore HE3t (sister to Whirlpool Duet). Here is a pic of the dry load. I will also post the wet towels at the end of the cycle.


Post# 497836 , Reply# 116   2/20/2011 at 00:52 (4,668 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

joe_in_philly's profile picture
Here is the finished load, after the final fluff. Ready for the dryer!

Post# 497943 , Reply# 117   2/20/2011 at 12:04 (4,668 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Thanks for those pics Joe.  So from this your washer increases the time  some parts of the cycle to make up for the large load and ends up doing a very good job.


Post# 498129 , Reply# 118   2/20/2011 at 23:58 (4,667 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains )        

volsboy1's profile picture
I fill mine up to where I want to fill it.If I want to use my pool to wash my shirt then I will.I have four 4 wheeler's,2 Sea-doos,my family has about 7 4-wheel drives,My Mom has never took her Mercedes M.L.K. 420 off road.My Family farm is over 1500 acres and that's just the farm we have other house's also.My Aunt has Two Dishwasher's I picked out Mile commercial's that pump 109 gallons a min because she wanted them and they look good.Well I need to go to the store I have my RANGE ROVER IDLING for a few hours to warm up.:)

Post# 498205 , Reply# 119   2/21/2011 at 10:43 (4,667 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
volsboy1

Thank you for sharing with us a wonderful example of the "I'll do what I want and screw the rest of you" attitude we know and despise so much.

Matt


Post# 498360 , Reply# 120   2/21/2011 at 18:53 (4,667 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
RE It may work out only a few cents here and there but when

Here for most of us US washer users the first if any repair's cost totally swamps any cost savings. It often is more than ones total outlay in water, electricity and soap; variables one has control off.

If the 599 buck 641 with tax LG Front loader explodes and dies in 5 years and one washes a typical us 2.5 loads a week; the washer cost 64100 cents for 650 washes; about 1 dollar a load. This is massive compared to the cost of the test I posted with 16Lbs of wash consuming 0.15 KWHR And 11 US gallons; ie my cost of 13 cents.

A neighbors Sears Kenmore HE FL bought after Kartina in the fall of 2005 is in a house next door that nobody lives in yet. The washers warranty was up and the washer died right afterward and the quoted repair cost is about 300 + bucks for the board and the pump and other stuff before even labor costs. It only has been used maybe 50 to 100 times and was a 600 + buck FL washer too. That means if the unit goes into a landfill each washload coat between 6 to 12 dollar. ie do you thrown 300 to 500 bucks more for a repair; or roll the dice again.

Here many items like washers and dryers are really not repaired; unless one does it oneself or is lucky and finds an honest repair person. Many folks just junk them; ie one avoids the waste of endless idiots screwing up with bad repair jobs.

ie the waste really is in the repair area. Folks know enough to be dangerous, parts are expensive. That is why a yet another neighbor scrapped out their Maytag Neptune and went back to dumb TL washers.

In little window 5500BTUH AC units bought here after Katrina to get by; most of them died in about 2 years and then they are tossed. Nobody can fix them cheaper than buying a new one. My own GE and Maytag units died in 2 years. the guy across the streets died in 1 year.; the lady next doors has had 2 or out 3 die in 5 years. All this stuff gets tossed. Her washer bought after Katrina already died , TL machine leaks like made. Thus the new owner who bought the house had the scrap man pick it up.

Thus the waste is really not is the power or water consumed; it is that so much stuff is imported and basically a few parts and service cost more than a new unit. Ie machines are throwaway things. It is often far worse with non USA items; parts cost more; the repair base is worse. Many folks here took their ill or dead/flooded washers and dryers to the curbside after Katrina due to flooding. Today many of the new machines bought in 2005 or 2006 are already dead due to the WASTE of the repairs being way too much. ie the spider breaks and all that beloved savings is down the drain; since the washer is scraped.



Post# 498365 , Reply# 121   2/21/2011 at 19:04 (4,667 days old) by pingmeep ()        

Sadly that's largely accurate North of the border too. Although more Canadians seem to pay more for moderately better machines and parts and labour extended warranties are more common.

Post# 498499 , Reply# 122   2/22/2011 at 10:27 (4,666 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Here in the USA if one buys a New 27" machine locally or custom orders a smaller frame 24" machine; one might not get a wash cycle that shows as much water as Chestermikeuk's image above.

Most new washers here never show any water like in that image; thus I suppose that image is from a machine from decades ago; posted to show the past.?

What machine is that from?

To shoot an image like that my FL 1976 Westinghouse has to have a very small load and the water selector dial purposely set super high. About the only time one really washed like that was to remove sand from beach towels; maybe a once a year thing where one added some extra things like a robust plastic cup or 2x4 chunk to "beat the sand" out of the fluffy towels.


Post# 498502 , Reply# 123   2/22/2011 at 10:48 (4,666 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Old Machine

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It was the sloping front Hoover Keymatic from the 60's, this one owned & lovingly restored by Mathew (Keymatic 3203), it was, like those of its time a water hog!! AND it only washed 8lbs a time, similar to the Westy I think!!




Post# 498504 , Reply# 124   2/22/2011 at 10:52 (4,666 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Thanks; I thought that was Matt's current machine of today! :) thus I can sleep easy tonight!




Post# 498506 , Reply# 125   2/22/2011 at 10:55 (4,666 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Its up to date model...

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Washes up to 9kg cotton load, 1600rpm, using 68lts of water for all the cycle!! how times change and things improve!!!

Post# 498521 , Reply# 126   2/22/2011 at 11:44 (4,666 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Your machine uses less than a Coffield ! :)



Your machine uses 68 Liters ie 18 US gallons. The 1976 Westy uses between 20 to 30 gallons; depending on where the water selector is set. The lower number if 20 and high number of 30 depend on the DC offset on the water level pressure switch; ie has anybody tweaked it.


The house here in 1971 had no water meter.

ie like in metered internet usage.

It did not even get a water meter until about 1978.


Waters cost was so low that one could not break even then with the added cost of adding water meters. ie the subdivision developer did not want to spend 50 to 100 per house for a meter; and then try to get it back via 1 dollar monthly bills!


The house back in 1968 had a water meter; the one in 1965 did not.

A house back in 1959 had a well; our own source of water. The house in 1952 had no water meter.


My grandmothers Coffield washing machine back in Detroit was powered by a water motor. The water flow made the drum move with a water motor. Houses had no water meters; and this was right in ground zero of Detroit were row houses were only 30 feet apart.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK on eBay


Post# 498528 , Reply# 127   2/22/2011 at 12:22 (4,666 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains )        

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No he has a one of a kind MIELE 24 Dimensional series washer. That dimension drive warps space and time and will wash 500 kilos in 3 minutes with a cup of water.That is the secret of how that 24 can wash soooo much more than any of our large wasteful L.G. 4.8 cubic ft washer.Wink


Post# 498536 , Reply# 128   2/22/2011 at 12:56 (4,666 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)        
Volsboy1

Hilarious!

Post# 498569 , Reply# 129   2/22/2011 at 15:40 (4,666 days old) by aegokocarat (United Kingdom)        

idk if this is relevent to the thread but since you are on about a rather plasticy looking hoover i thought you would like to see my version wihich is the essentials by steeple venus


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