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this was my set from 1993 to 2004 when i switch to frontloads
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Post# 500789   3/2/2011 at 22:08 (4,665 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

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hello to all aw members,

for any one that was wondering what was my first set of daily driver from 93 to 2004 it was this particular set

Post# 500790 , Reply# 1   3/2/2011 at 22:11 (4,665 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
my set today

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and here is my set today and when they break i will be going back to a good old fashion top loading washer

Post# 500809 , Reply# 2   3/3/2011 at 00:55 (4,665 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        

Why going back to a top loader?
Aren't you satisfied of something?
What's happened?

Post# 500852 , Reply# 3   3/3/2011 at 07:34 (4,665 days old) by househelper ()        
I'm going back to top-loader too.

After almost two years using my frontloader it's safe to say I'm going back to TL.

I don't even think I'm going to wait till it breaks.

I would love my front loader if:

1. It let me adjust the water level that I want.
2. Let me set the water temp that I want ( as it has a heater)

Waiting 1.5 to 2.5 hours for clean laundry is pathetic.

With my old TL I could get clean laundry in under 45 min.

Post# 500857 , Reply# 4   3/3/2011 at 07:54 (4,665 days old) by KenmoreBD (Mass, usa )        

Almost the same as the first set my mum had. Yours are just a few years younger. Did something happen to the washer? Ours was leaking oil when mum got rid of it 04.


Post# 500858 , Reply# 5   3/3/2011 at 08:03 (4,665 days old) by KenmoreBD (Mass, usa )        

Actualy on a second look, did you get the set in 93 or are they 93?

Post# 500869 , Reply# 6   3/3/2011 at 08:30 (4,665 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

I think you mean your "first set of daily driver from 93 to 2004" was a Top Loader

and Todays stuff ( from 2004 to 2011/today) is your front loader

and you are going back to Top Loaders?

Post# 500873 , Reply# 7   3/3/2011 at 08:37 (4,665 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

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no the washer did not leak but the agi was not following the top part and the washer had 2 repairs on it 1 the motor and 2 the timer so after 10 years it did its time and the reason i would go back to a top loader is because of my size i have to sit down to load the washer and i for 1 always wash in cold water most of the time or warm water

Post# 500878 , Reply# 8   3/3/2011 at 09:08 (4,665 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Cycle times

Househelper RE "With my old TL I could get clean laundry in under 45 min. "

With my 1976 FL Westy washer ; the max cycle time is 42 minutes, with things that are not super dirty I use shorter washes in the 35 to 37 min range.

With a new LG WM2501HVA FL washer I bought last Nov, the cycle time for cottons is 55 Minutes, stuff that is not too dirty can use the short wash of 22 minutes. Often I use the 22 minute short wash with a few wash/rinse extra buttons pushed and get total cycles in the 30 to 35 minute range and "feel better" . If I add a prewash cycle and a normal wash cotton setting the cycle time is about 1.25 hours. (this is my typical cycle if not in a hurry).

In some other threads where I mentioned that I like reasonable wash times too; some folks have parachuted in and preached cycle time does not matter. Maybe these folks are retired and time has no bearing. Here I have used FL washers for over 50 years and have always had total cycles less than 45 minutes; thus the long new FL cycles are to me shocking too.

Here in the USA washers chase the tax kickback of least water usage. The washer maker gets healthy tax break if the washer uses hardly any water, thus the design is purposely made/steered to get that tax credit. Thus if an Acme washer washes well and uses X gallons but misses the Governments tax break, the design might be reprogramed to use 0.9 X gallons and they get the bonus and you get a washer sometimes that is not as good. ie the tax break only requires a software change, the washer maker lets the performance drop to get that big carrot. The same thing happens in cars too.

Post# 500910 , Reply# 9   3/3/2011 at 10:54 (4,664 days old) by househelper ()        
Time is money

I agree 3beltwesty. Your old 1976 westy is a perfect example of a front loader that can actualy clean dirty laundry in a short amount of time due to larger water volume. I would rather have my laundry clean in the shortest amount of time. Longer wash times just equals more wear on clothing . The government could care less about your clothing wearing out sooner due to a 2+ hour washing.

As for the speed cycle on the LG's... I feel it's a joke of a wash as there is no true spin-out of the wash water before the rinse.

The only good cycle on my LG is the large/bulky selection ( it actually uses some water) but will only give you a medium spin as the max.

I wish there was a way to alter or reprogram the control board to let the end user decide how the laundry is done. ( I wish I could hack my LG lol ;-) )

Post# 500925 , Reply# 10   3/3/2011 at 12:14 (4,664 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        

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The Duets I had allowed you to adjust the water level using a screw driver on the pressure valve located under the top of the machine. It also had a quick cycle with a wash and two rinses and was only 33 minutes long.I only had one issue where part of my room mate,Orma's,bra had a metal strap that came out and was stuck in between the inner and outer tubs making a loud scraping noise as the drum tumbled or spun.It took about an hour but I was able to eventually get the piece to break up and removed it from the pump assembly.Other than that, the set was great as well as the results.

Every direct drive top loading washer I have had was way too fast in agitation and tour up numerous pieces of clothes I had.From dress shirts to bath towels.If you wash a load in each machine and compare the lint that accumulates in the dryer screen, You'll see how much damage is done to clothes in the top loaders by the fact that there is a lot more lint.

Post# 500938 , Reply# 11   3/3/2011 at 12:41 (4,664 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

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thank you for the info laundromat but the duet set i have is among the first that where made so there is no quick wash on the model i have and 1 of the main reason i would go back to a top loader is 1 if i have to start it and have to leave the house i would be able to stop the washer while i run my errands and 2 is because the fact that there is more water in the tub would remove the detergent smell on the clothe and 3 its because i a have to sit down when loading the washer while loading from the top i can stay up

Post# 500951 , Reply# 12   3/3/2011 at 13:53 (4,664 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        

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I would recommend the new LG top loader (or the one they make for Sears) that has the stainless steel drum and the slam proof lid first then the Speed Queen second.

Post# 500981 , Reply# 13   3/3/2011 at 14:44 (4,664 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        
Long cycle times for full loads... short cycle for half load

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I understand you want to go back to top loaders because in your case it would be more of an ergonomic choice... although I'd personally find it more disruptive because of the way I'm organised to do my laundry... but let's not go into that.
If that was the only reason for your claim, then, well… I guess… I can only zip it... but claims about wash times and other unfounded claims made by some repressed automatic users are just unacceptable. If your particular model of front loader lacks some facilities commonly found in most other front loading x-axis washing machines... then I'd say... trash that machine and get another FL.

FL are all about the art of washing... every single component... or rather every single inch of its entrails is designed to serve a specific purpose for pampering your laundry delivering unparalleled cleaning and the best treatment for your most precious items, the least impact on your pocket as well as the environment and to top it all off it even adds a touch of style to your living space (although the latter might be less important).

There are quite a few processes going on in you FL every time you press the start button: the superior and comprehensive dynamics involved in the cleaning process are more than meets the eye: the drum motion provide tumble action which gently allows all fibres in your textiles to expand and contract during the lifting/falling operations; the back of the drum is designed in a such way to provide an additional cleaning action by extreme gentle scouring enabled by the falling of the clothes past it, and even the deemed insignificant glass bowl wards off the load while simulating a very gently scrubbing action. The tumble action would be replaced in the case of a 'full to the brim' load by a gentle time enabled filtration (hence long cycle times).

All of the properties I described above will have different effects in combination with the size of the load. If you have a particularly grubby batch of garments then you will have to allow all these actions to be combined by reducing the size of the load to 3/4 or less. If you pack your front loader full with clothes (up to its max capacity or more) then you will have to lower your expectations in regards to washing a heavily soiled load as some of the cleaning actions I was describing above will not occur, still, you'll be able to benefit of some kind of filtration achieved by the water and the detergent contained in the tub which will go through the clothes as the drum rotates as well as the gentle scrubbing properties of the drum front/back: these agents in combination with long cycle times are capable to wash a normally/lightly soiled load without damaging it (should this scenario be allowed in a TL V-axis washer shredding/tearing would most definitely occur).

Contrary to what some folks have suggested... you can safely choose the longest available cycle with a full load of clothes in a FL and rest assured that wear and tear will not happen (just think of a dishwasher spraying water over static items for hours... when clothes are packed they are nearly-static in respect to the drum action which is likely to yield results relative only to the existing water being circulated through the items by means of the g force given by rotating/lifting/falling). Should damage occur in this situation (rare) it can only be attributed to the fact that some items might not be fully contained by the drum during the spin cycle (with an over-stuffed drum) resulting in continuous beating against design protuberances within the rubber bellows (like the clothes retainer you mostly find in the upper part of the seal).

The cycles lengths are all there... why should these be regarded as a minus... most models offers a wide range of cycle lengths (short, medium, long), it's up to the user (hopefully with a minimum of commonsense and know how) to choose the most suitable for their laundry needs... granting that front loaders’ short cycles are still longer than top loaders cycles by a few minutes... or even a quarter of an hour... I’d say: what difference does it make if you have to spend 3 times as much for drying poorly spun clothes? I know... I know... there are TL machines out there today which spin up to 1200rpm... but only the top ranking ones.

Yet… if you don’t like long wash cycles… or you can’t set your washer on a timer or time delay (guess what… you can have you clean laundry first thing in the morning) just don’t bother with them… do your laundry on short cycles and fill the drum ¾ max (same old problem… your washer hasn’t got short cycles… well, it sucks… but just like anything else, within a given range of products there is always a stock of different options available/unavailable across the range: in other words not all FL washers suck... like... I guess I could say the same for TLs).

My 1 penny (energy efficient) worth!

Post# 500989 , Reply# 14   3/3/2011 at 15:13 (4,664 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Long wash cycles....

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....does not equate to wear on clothes.


I feel like a penny-pinching meanie when I tell people that I'm still wearing clothes that I bought in 1988...but I am.


I bought a pair of very pale chinos from a now defunct department store in 1988 that get regular wear and have, with only a couple of exceptions, been washed in a front load machine. I'm not known for underloading and I don't take any special precautions, just separate and go....yet all the wear they show is less than 1/4 inch of fraying on the bottom of one leg caused by shoes!


The same for a set of sheridan towels. I bought them when I moved out of home in 1994. They've only ever been washing in a front loader and, from 1995, tumble dried. Between the 4 towels and other items, I can count on my hands the number of thread pulls....though they are starting to get a little 'light'


I've used a variety of machines over the years from a Keymatic (sigh!), British Hoover 'square doors', Australian Hoover Electra 550 (another sigh!), ASEA Cylinda 12000, Blomberg 1301A and Italian made Electrolux and Westinghouse badged Zanussi....and never have I ever given a thought to clothes wear...or cycle time.


Some of those machines are similar to the 1976 Westy that is oft' referred to in that I could get a full capacity cotton cycle down between 40 and 55 minutes depending on soiling and it would wash beautifully....others have had longer times for quick loads. Especially the Blomberg at 1hr 20 minutes for a 'Quick' wash....


...but you work with the machine and find something else to do.


I don't give it a second thought in most cases. Washing goes in and I do something else:


- watch TV

- cook 

- read

- vacuum

- head out for coffee...


Washing machines were created to free people up to do other things. Waiting for them so you can bung the next load in is the complete reverse of one of their key functions - Giving you time to do other why the hang up with cycle times? 


...and after 7yrs of living with machines, I'd have to draw the conclusion that you're actually pretty happy with them or you'd have found a way to get rid of them or not.

Post# 500991 , Reply# 15   3/3/2011 at 15:26 (4,664 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        
An example of a reduced load cos' of heavy soil.

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Below a I included a link to a load of fastcolour laundry on a 60 degree cycle. This load was heavily stained so to get the most of the cleaning ability of the washer I reduced the load to approx half the washer's max capacity. This type of cycle with these settings would have a main wash of approx 35 minutes when the time saver option has been selected selected.


Post# 501013 , Reply# 16   3/3/2011 at 17:34 (4,664 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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This is the Duet set I've had for a while and I don't notice it taking a horribly long time to do laundry.....

I think the newer FL's have longer cycle times.

Post# 501036 , Reply# 17   3/3/2011 at 18:49 (4,664 days old) by househelper ()        
better temp controls in Europe

Thanks for the link Haxisfan. That Hoover looks nice and looks like it gives the user complete temperature control. Our government in all its "Green" wisdom will never give us those temperature settings like on the hoover. 73.8c (165F) is the sanitary cycle on my LG and its two hours long! could be because most US washers are only 110v.

Hot washes are not even hot as my LG will add cold water (near the end of the fill) to my "HOT" wash for energy savings!?

We have three loads of laundry to do tonight and at my LG's speed looks like I'll be up all night.

I seem to have more pilled T-shirts shortly after getting our front loader.

I would gladly trade in my almost two year old $1200 LG FL for a $700 Speed Queen TL.

I'm not anti FL... I don't think we have the same FL's as you do. And at the present rate of energy conservation in this country it doesn't look like we will ever have Euro quality FL washers.

Post# 501039 , Reply# 18   3/3/2011 at 18:56 (4,664 days old) by appnut (TX)        
Every direct drive top loading washer I have had was way too

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Sing it Chuck!!  Amen!!  My 1986 Lady Shredmore is testament of what he talks about.  My clothes are cleaner from my front loaders.  I constantly had to use gentle agitation so that all my stuff wouldn't get beat to death.  And they're lasting longer.  Lint is different in the dryer now too.   I hope I don't have to go back to a top loader that will destroy my clothes.  Plus, my water and sewar bills are much less too!! 

Post# 501051 , Reply# 19   3/3/2011 at 19:30 (4,664 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Culturally many of us folks in the USA are use to wash times

Here I never really used a machine that ever could take an hour until I bought a modern Frontloader last Nov. the LG WM2501.

With the older 1976 machine the max time is 42 minutes, A typical wash often is shorter just 37 minutes or even 32 at times.

The knit cycle is even less.

For work clothes that are dirty with the new LG I often use prewash plus wash and the wash time is about 75 minutes. If one uses the heavy soil settings one gets times of about 80 plus minutes.

Thus from a practical standpoint; the high tech new LG takes twice the wash time of the older machine. It really is not that bad because the newer machine extracts way better; ie it really only takes about 1.5 times longer.

It is an odd thing to get use to.

It is like going back to a 110 volt dryer!

Sort of like using a gas stove burner ones entire life and now one has a 500 watt burner and it takes way longer to make coffee. ie it does not bother folks who have no schedules; but bothers folks who value time.

Many coin laundromats are way shorter in time than old USA washers; ie 25 minutes sometimes.

MAYBE I NEED to buy another new LG and just use the panel below and rip out all the hokey software. ie manual setting for water! :

Post# 501057 , Reply# 20   3/3/2011 at 19:58 (4,664 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Well perceptions and reality....

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...are different all over the world.


We went from a 1968 Simpson Fluid Drive (think Speed Queen) top loader to a 1989 ASEA (think ASKO) front loader...and cycle times went up....but so did what we could wash in it. The capacity differnce was technically only 1 lb, but the ASEA would happily take 4 queen sheets without an issue and the water sensors sorted out how much for the 'load'


...the same is the case for modern machines. Any half decent machine doesn't need any manual control for water level....and you, the consumer, should be able to rely on it to deliver results without interfering with it. for pilling on shirts, well, I can only say that I've had minimal if any regardless of which machines I've owned at the time...


As for the 'weigh to save', I would hardly refer to it as 'technology' - they are a guide only being very dependant as to where on teh door you place the washing - too far front or back and you will get a different result....and I would bet a box of OMO MATIC that you could fill the machine up, set to MEDIUM level and a 15 minute wash time and get the same results as if you'd chosen the 'FULL' option for water....  

Post# 501059 , Reply# 21   3/3/2011 at 20:05 (4,664 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Blame the whimy 120 USA volts on being environmentally conce

Europe's washers are designed around 230 volts; thus it is real easy to heat water quickly.

In the USA one could make a home washer for 220 to 240 volts; but most houses only have this in the laundry room if they have an electric dryer,

With half the voltage one gets only 1/4 the power heating via a coil.

A European 230 volt 50 Hz washer may or may not work right on USA's 60 Hz; it depends on the devices details.

BIG Commercial washers in the USA tend to run on 230 volts; few if any home washers do.

The USA PURPOSELY choose the lower 110 volts over eons ago to save energy. Once the AC and DC wars were over simple light bulb drived the designs. Filament lamps are more fragile and are not as efficient on 220 volts. There was no CFL bulbs in Edison's day. Since the primary loads were lighting; we were concerned with saving energy, burning less coal in the beginings of electrical power systems. 60Hz was chosen to reduce flicker; less eye fatigue while sewing or drafting in a sweatshop. In Motors; 60HZ motors need less iron; they weigh less, cost less. 50Hz is more lossy in transmission. It requires a lot more larger windings and magnetic core/iron in transformers.

****Thus blame that USA washers use "just 120 volts" and 60HZ today based on concerns over 120 years ago about waste with powering lamps and motors; the primary loads. Folks want to not waste coal, waste iron, waste money with running bulbs on 220 volts and motors on 50Hz. Motor laminations were not as good 120 years ago, motor lams have to be thicker with 50 Hz.

Post# 501078 , Reply# 22   3/3/2011 at 21:41 (4,664 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

True about 120V vs 220, 230 or 240V.  The difference in time between a 105F and 140F wash on my 220+ volt washer is about 4 minutes so it can heat the water fast to almost 200F if I select that temp range.


Many top loaders today select the water amount automatically based on the load size...don't know what else they do based on load size, but do know that what I consider cool to warm is now considered hot.  In 1996 I had a top load KitchenAid  washer that provided cool water for the warm wash.  Back then when I wanted a warm wash I selected a hot wash, waited until the tub was almost full, then switched  the temp to warm....the only way I could get a really warm water wash.


I wonder if the top loaders you will get in the future will be like the top loader you had in the past?




Post# 501088 , Reply# 23   3/3/2011 at 22:03 (4,664 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

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hum i'don't know but base on what you posted my grand mother has a topload whirpool washer thats she bought in 2009 and just in fall last year she bought the matching dryer to replace her 40 year old vintage dryer and on her washer she has the option set to cool water for her wash and i remeber the last 2 washer she had and old vintage inglis liberator that was a push to start model and then around 1988 that she replace with a kenmore washer she always would use the warm wash water setting with the cold water rinse so i think that in order to have a real warm wash water we would have to try and find a good old fashion vintage machine?

Post# 501089 , Reply# 24   3/3/2011 at 22:03 (4,664 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)        

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Did the fight between George and Thomas have anything to do with why we have 120 volts?  I know that is why we don't have DC current in buildings. 

Post# 501096 , Reply# 25   3/3/2011 at 22:06 (4,664 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
glimpse of my grandmother 's washer today

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here is a glimpse of her washer today sorry but not a full pic when i took this pic it was of her dryer

Post# 501127 , Reply# 26   3/4/2011 at 00:40 (4,664 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

 but the duet set i have is among the first that where made so there is no quick wash on the model i have


I believe I have the same Duet washer you do, at least from the picture it looks the same, and I have a Quick wash option that runs 30 minutes.  Even the "Normal" cycle runs 40 minutes.  True, it's is a bit longer than my TL, there a sturdy load for Cottons runs 28 minutes.  But, as has often been stated, the drying time is much reduced with a FL due to the high speed spin, so for me I net out the same.

Post# 501144 , Reply# 27   3/4/2011 at 04:21 (4,664 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

60 Vs 50Hz-Most transformers made today can run from either.Examples are in two of the transmitters at the place where I work.Two of the transmitters were built in Europe-one in Germany,the other in Switzerland.the transformers-and some of the motors are slash marked to run from either frequency.the motors when run from 50hz-will run slower.say 3450 RPM motor(60Hz)runs at 2850rpm at 50Hz.
inreal reality-there is less loss if you can run the motor at a higher voltage-many power tool makers recommend this-most 1.5Hp table saws have motors that can run on either 120V or 220V.The cable gauge can be smaller on the 220V since the motor is drawing half the current.1.5Hp table saw-14A 120V,6A 220V.
for lights-incandscent esp-flicker is not going to be noticable on either frequency.the filament doesn't completely cool off enough between cycles-for arc type lights than the flicker between 50Hz,60Hz can be noticed.Ie early Cooper-Hewitt lamps. In Edisons day arc lights were around.typically carbon arcs-used in early streetlighting.

Post# 501182 , Reply# 28   3/4/2011 at 08:24 (4,664 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        
@ househelper

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Hi there... with a nickname like yours I guess you need all the help you can get... well... 3 loads of laundry in 1 go... ouch… I believe it'd be a stressful combination regardless of what type washer you're using... you still have to accomplish drying somehow... unless you own 2 or 3 dryers… let alone folding and putting away… that’s scary! When I have lots of laundry to get out of the way, I let it pile up and do only 1 load each day no stop as opposed to the typical 4-5 loads per week (so it’d work out 7 a week).

I always believed that US temperature system was not about not having temperature choice but rather the implementation of names like (cold, cool, warm, hand hot, hot, very hot, boiling) as opposed to our degree Celsius system. You mentioned the sanitary cycle in the LG being carried out at a temperature of 74C (165F), still, it seems more than reasonable for fulfilling its purpose. Over here these kinds of cycles have always been present and always had a similar cycle length around the 2 hour mark... which would even be longer if used in conjunction with a pre-wash cycle. However that didn't mean that the washer would keep heating the water throughout the whole cycle, but only in certain stages at pre-programmed intervals, reaching the top temperature only during the last stage of the main wash. Having said that, in most cases, such cycles are not necessary and cleanliness can be achieved with much lower temperatures (or cold with specific products).

Pricing for these 2 most contended types of washers (FL vs TL) is rather different over here but this phenomenon is often dictated by the market according to its own trend rather than reflecting the quality of the materials or processed involved in the production: I'm sure the US would see much cheaper FLs in the near future if Americans kept buying these machines over TL models.

I admit that I love the idea of having a flexibility in temperature choice, but that is recently been taken down a notch or two... in fact most current but top of the range models (not just Hoover) no longer offer middling temperatures like 50, 70 or 80 degrees... well, I guess one just gets used to it as long as there are other available options that let you tweak the wash cycle in terms of duration. In my opinion it’s most appropriate for the user to be able to choose the cycle lengths in a given washer and learn the potential shortcomings of short wash cycles by their own trial n' error… but most importantly the user is able to compare its own experiences within the same appliance rather than relying on someone else terms of comparison or opinion of the type ‘my short wash gave me brilliant results’ and ‘my long wash gave me poor results’.

Oh dear… too much rambling perhaps… see ya ;-)

Post# 501226 , Reply# 29   3/4/2011 at 11:38 (4,663 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
US temperature system


RE :

"I always believed that US temperature system was not about not having temperature choice but rather the implementation of names like (cold, cool, warm, hand hot, hot, very hot, boiling) as opposed to our degree Celsius system. "

Washers in the USA did not historically have any heaters until the last decade or so.

Our hot water has been from our homes hot water heater, thus washers had no temperature markings in degrees, since it would be impossible.

With a corded via a plug type 120 volt device; about 1500 watts is about what one can get legally with a non permanent plugged to socket connection. With a typical usa house; one has 15 amp 120 volt sockets. With a plug in device one cannot legally use the fully 15 amps; the electrical code allows about 80 percent; ie about 12 amps. 12 amps at 120 volts is about 1440 watts. That is why a space heater is typically 1500 watts. The derating allows for the plug to socket degradation, contact resistance. A wired device without a socket/ plug can use the full 15 or 20 amps.

Thus with the say 1500 watts max one has to subtract maybe 100 for the washers motors and solenoids and one can only have about 1300 to 1400 watts for a washer's heater. This is really not enough heat to heat water on the fly. Thus for legal reasons one cannot label washers here with degrees F or C with an internal heater; unless one wanted to allow 4 times the time.

Post# 501229 , Reply# 30   3/4/2011 at 11:54 (4,663 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

RE "60 Vs 50Hz-Most transformers made today can run from either."

Most distribution transformers on the street, most ac clocks, most AC motors in the USA are made for 60 Hz only. If one runs them on 50 Hz they burn up. Legally if you do this your fire insurance is voided.

Transformers and induction motors designed for 60 Hertz and used on 50 are like having them run at 20 percent more voltage; from a core saturation standpoint. It may or may not work, it depends on the design margin. Many consumer products are designed with tight price goals, they do NOT often use 20 percent more iron in their AC motors so a USA electric dryer can work in Europe on 50 Hz. One basically is driving the cost up by several dollars per unit; which turns into many millions wehn in production. They fire folks for such wastefull designs.

With dump things like computers, chargers etc often then DO design for 50 and 60 hertz.

Since your transmitters were made in Europe; of course they are 50 Hz.

With an early 1980's Sony VCR here made for 120 volts 60 Hz; its transformer when run on 50 Hz 120 volts via a motor/gen would get so hot that the transformer would fail. To run it on 50 Hz we had to drop the voltage by 5/6 or about 100 volts. This unit at my apartment in Californa on 126 volts 60 Hz would char its ciruit board. The transformer barely worked on 60 Hz.

Post# 501442 , Reply# 31   3/5/2011 at 00:28 (4,663 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

For the transmitters they were designed so they could run on either 50Hz or 60Hz.The manufactueres had in mind of wordwide use for these items-shortwave transmitters sold to other countries-same theing with transmitters built in the US-Continental Electronics-their transmitters are built in the US-but also sold to overseas markets were they would have to work from 50Hz.Their transmformers and motors are slashed marked-the items would have to be derated slightly when used on 50hz.One of our transmitters had frequent HV rect transformer failures-not becuase of frequency issues-but the pakaging of the transformer in a more compact tank-1.2MVA was packed in a case about 3/4 the size it would normally be in-the US made replacement transformer is larger-so much so we had to have a concrete pad built outside the building and the transmformer installed outside.The orig transformer was inside the transmitters transformer vault-that is inside the building.the vault now only containes a transformer that steps down 4160V to 400/220V.This transmformer operates all of the LV parts in the transmitter.
also come to think of it had to adapt many reel tape recorders at my agency to operate overseas-50Hz-220V current.Had to retap the transformer in the tape machine so it could run on the overseas power.In the shop we have a power supply that can convert the 60Hz US power to 50Hz so I could test the recorder.It was fine-its transformer did not overheat-Otari rates the transformer in the machine for continious use for 50Hz or 60Hz.the reel motors in the machine run from the transformer-same with the capstan motor-its speed is derived from an electronic circuit in the machine-not the powerline.
Yes,its true on dist transmformers-these are designed for the frequency the power company is going to use them on.Most dist transformer makers make ones that are for 50Hz and 60Hz.You have to specify when you order them.and the voltages Primary and sec will be diffrent for overseas power companies-US transformer makers do make transformers for other power companies besides ours.
If the appliance or device has a switching supply instead of a conventional transformer it can run from 50 or 60Hz.Many new amplifiers made for cinemas,commercial uses,sound reinforcement have switching supplies so you can run them on 50 or 60Hz and 120 or 220V.Crown,QSC,Ashley build amps with switching power supplies-and it makes the amp more efficient,lighter in weight and takes up less rack space.The switching supplies are being used in some consumer type amps too-lift some amps and recivers at the Hi-Fi dept at Best Buy and all-they are getting lighter-and no big power transformer inside the unit.One amp company -for "hi end" Hi-fi has a TUBED amp that uses switching supplies in it instead of conventional power transformers-and vacuum tubes for the amp stages.

Post# 501451 , Reply# 32   3/5/2011 at 03:55 (4,663 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        
Cool... warm... hot...

haxisfan's profile picture
3belt, thanks for the info. In my comment above I was thinking more on the lines of post heater American appliances in the last decade or so... such as your own LG front loader. Perhaps I was exaggerating a bit but I've seen at least 4 settings (cold, cool, warm, hot) in older models where as you suggested the centralized hot water was mixed with cold water in such a way to result in said temperature variations, with a marginal degree of accuracy of course... but what about those washing machines with an integrated heater? They still have names instead of degrees.

I remember seeing a recent 'Splendide' American front loader which has the exact same design as our European Indesit, however the various iconic elements, names of cycles, colours and temperature id on the control panel is completely different... the latter relying on names rather than on a degree scale. One last curiosity... is 120 volts fatal for humans?

Post# 501501 , Reply# 33   3/5/2011 at 11:04 (4,662 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Heated WATER time with a USA machine versus 220V machine


*IF* a washer hawked/sold here with an electric heater had "degree F" or " Degree C" I feel that a few lawyer types or whiners would ruin the party.

Here I think that your marking system of actual degrees C is super!

To not have a lawsuit a washer maker would have to test so super cold ground water in February in Northern Minnesota is really heated to the marked front panel setting in degrees F, or a lawyer would sue for fraud etc.

THUS since suing is a big industry here in the USA, product makers purposely use vague weasel words on products. There are folks who all they do is hunt for infractions and subtle things to start a lawsuit.

Many of us here like me could actually hook up a 220 volt washer with no issues, we already have a plug for the electric dryer. If I wanted a a separate circuit running a 230 volt circuit is easy with my house.

****I am not sure HOW MUCH water is really heated up on a non usa 220 volt washers internal heater, or even our new 120v washers units here.

My old 1976 machine that uses an external water heater uses 0 to 10 gallons of hot water, depending on whether warm or hot is used AND the water level setting.

As a rough crude guess I would guess by seat of the pants that a modern machine uses 1/3; thus say 3 gallons of hot water? ie about 10 to 11 Liters?

3 gallons weights 25 Lbs

If this is heated from 20 C/ 68F to 70 C / 158F this is a 50C / 90 F delta temp

The energy to heat the water is thus 25 Lbs times 90 F = 2250 BTU

With 1400 watts of heater power; this is 1400 * 3.414= 4780 BTUH

The TIME thus to heat the water is thus 2250 BTH /4770 BTUH = 0.47 Hours.

This is with no losses of heating up the fittings, water container, element etc.

*****Thus a USA heater on a 120 VOLT washer at "full poop" would take 1/2 hour to heat 3 gallons of water to 158 F or 50 C

*IF* the heated water was only 1.5 gallons (5.7 LITRES ) the time would be 1/4 HOUR

WHAT is the wattage of your non USA washers heaters?

Post# 501612 , Reply# 34   3/5/2011 at 18:34 (4,662 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        

ronhic's profile picture awful picture, but my PC crashed recently, so this is from the web...


Anyway, it is rated at 230-250V, 2050w @ 50Hz....


A 'hot' 60c quick cottons is 75minutes


A 'warm' 40c quick cottons cycle is 68minutes...though I can get a 40c quick synthetics cycle to about 50 minutes.


A 'tepid' 30c quick cottons cycle is 61minutes


A 'cold' quick cottons is 55minutes 


I tend to wash everything on the hot or warm cycles except gym gear which gets synthetics 30c quick at 45minutes and wool....


There is a 30c, 30minute refresh cycle too....which I very rarely use as it spins at 700rpm...though I tend to engage 'rinse hold' which reduces the time to 25min and then flick around to the separate 'spin' at 1200rpm for 10minutes...


All 'quick' cycles have 2 deep rinses - to where the door glass goes vertical (approx 1/5 - 1/4 up the glass) and interim spins with a final at either 1200rpm or 900rpm...and whilst some would say you should reduce the load for a quick wash, I fill this to the top if nothing is heavily soiled and do the same but add a pre-wash if there is heavy (think ground in garden dirt) soiling. 


Normal cycles have 3 rinses, though at a lower water level....


Post# 501676 , Reply# 35   3/5/2011 at 20:55 (4,662 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        

Ronhic, thanks for the specs!

WOW; only 2050 on your 220 volt washer.

I was thinking more like 2500 to 3000 watts!

Is the longer 75 min time for the highest 60C just due to time required to heat the water?

The specs of higher temps taking longer I assume are due to the time to heat the water, and maybe too the time one wants to wash too.

Post# 501723 , Reply# 36   3/6/2011 at 02:29 (4,662 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
Just water heating...

ronhic's profile picture the difference...


...and I also have a 95c option too....which is pretty much boiling.


Australian power points deliver a nominal 230V @ a maximum of 10amps...though appliances should have a range from 230-250V and there are 15amp points too which have a larger 'earth' pin (which is the one on the bottom).


Appliances rated at 230-250V with 10amp plugs are not allowed to draw more than ALL domestic, movable appliances are traditionally rated from 230-250V 50Hz 10amp. The exceptions are normally American style tumble dryers.


Post# 501725 , Reply# 37   3/6/2011 at 03:32 (4,662 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        

haxisfan's profile picture
The Hoover you've seen in the vids has a 2150w heater, 230v at 50hz... I guess most European washers have a similar wattage heaters in them. My rapid boil kettle has got a 3000w heater... but the ordinary non rapid are rated around 2000w or less.

As for time... starting from 20C (68F) the heater requires 5 to 8 minutes (depending on the ambience temperature and the size of the load) to heat the water by 10 degrees... there are some cycles where their duration is entirely dependant on the temperature when used with a specific option called 'time saver' (this function cuts off the wash time so the washer ends the main wash 1 minute or so after the temperature has been reached) e.g. if I use a 40C cycle on a programme where the the 'time saver' function can be enabled the main wash is likely to last 25 minutes or so... the first 10' without heat + 7' (up to 30C) + 7' (up to 40C) + 1' (few final tumbles before drain) = 25'. To finish the cycle the machine needs another half an hour or so for rinsing (20' on easy care cycle) and approx 10 minutes (3' on easy care) for the final spin... all in all a similar cycle would need just over an 1 to complete (longer if there are delays due to unbalanced loads, the equivalent easy care cycle would be done in approx 45').

I don't think longer cycles in general are longer because washers need longer time to heat the water... it's just a specific profile associated with a particular wash cycle. As in my example above, you could see that the first 10' or so of the cycle don't even engage the heater, however, there are other fix duration cycles in which the heater will be engaged almost straight away (say 2-3 minutes after pressing the start button). You'll find a similar scenario on all the other machines across other manufacturers... the duration of a their programmes is specific to that particular cycle profile.

Post# 501728 , Reply# 38   3/6/2011 at 04:26 (4,662 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)        

haxisfan's profile picture
a time saver easy care cycle at 40 degrees would last approx 50 minutes as opposed to 45' I said above (I was thinking about my 30C time saver easy care cycles which I often use and last anything from 43 to 46').

Post# 501767 , Reply# 39   3/6/2011 at 11:29 (4,661 days old) by 3beltwesty ()        
Most all modern new US washers have no F or C degree marking


RE comment in Reply #32 "but what about those washing machines with an integrated heater? They still have names instead of degrees. "

Last November here with all the USA 50 to 100 new washers I looked at in about say 7 local stores, none are labeled in actual temperatures of F or C.

Thus I wager few if any USA modern washers have actual labeled temperatures in degrees F or C.

I really have never seen a washer that has actual temperatures in washers sold here for homeowners.

I have only seen them via the web; when say somebody in Europe, NZ, Oz, Brazil mentions they used their washer at 40C and I google their washer to see the front panel.

I really only heard /read of these actual front Temperature washer panel settings via non Americans on this website.

Thus when a non USA user mentions on this site they used a 40,50 0r 60 C settings, we here in the USA have no settings marked in C or F.

If I look at my new LG WM2501HVA, its panel has no F or C degree settings, only cold, warm, hot and extra hot and combinations of both for wash and rinse.

I do know the "extra hot" setting turns on the internal heater.

There is a statement on page 23 of the manual that says warm is regulated at 86F /30 C. it also says "your washer features a heating element to boost the hot water temperature of Extra Hot settings".

Then on page 15 it says under "fabric care labels" that hot is 50c 120 f warm 40 c 105 f cold 30 c 85 F

Thus an actual user like me has little info on ones new washer even if one digs.

Here is the PDF user manual for my washer:


Post# 501771 , Reply# 40   3/6/2011 at 11:40 (4,661 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

pierreandreply4's profile picture
or if you look at older washers as well that where made in the us or canada the water temps where eather writen cold warm hot with cold rinse or warm rinse or color coded when it came to washers made before today just look at the folowing pic to see whet i mean

Post# 501777 , Reply# 41   3/6/2011 at 12:05 (4,661 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
Explanation of color code for water temp

pierreandreply4's profile picture
Red= hot water

Yellow= Warm water for wash water (*and rinse water on some models)

Blue= cold water

this was how water temps where indicated on some canadian inglis whirpool washer before they wen back to writing

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