Thread Number: 33730
NON USA Dryers; what is typical, electric, gas, clothes line?
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|Post# 506943   3/26/2011 at 09:12 (4,642 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
In non US areas of the world what is the typical dryer like?
Here in the USA many folks have 240 volt electric or Natural Gas dryers or clothes line too.
Say in Europe, South America, Australia, Africa, Asia etc are inside dryers normal or not so common?
For inside house dryers in the UK etc are the more gas than electric?
When I was in New Zealand 20 years ago at some folks house they had an electric dryer but we used the clothes line about always to save money.
I wonder about the dryer since little is mentioned about them.
|Post# 506948 , Reply# 1   3/26/2011 at 09:46 (4,642 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)  || |
Probably more than half of households today own a dryer, although I do still know a number of people who don't own any, and a few who own washer/dryers.
Compact dryers which hold about half the amount of laundry as an average washer are common, as a cheaper alternative.
Condenser dryers are becoming increasingly popular, as are dryers with electronic moisture sensors.
All dryers run on 240v, probably about 99.9999% of domestic dryers are electric, only one model of gas dryer is on sale, they are not available through stores (that I am aware of) and I have never seen one in person.
Almost all full size domestic dryers are a standard 60cm wide cabinet, although some American sized machines are sold, but these are very few and far between (again have never seen one in person).
The vast majority of people who own a dryer will dry clothes on a washing line when the weather permits, even in poorer weather conditions a lot of people will dry clothes indoors (on airers or over radiators) even if they own a tumble dryer, to save energy.
That's pretty much how the situation is here, the use of dryers and the ownership of dryers is still increasing, but many, if not most people who do own them, do not use them all the time, often usage is reserved for bad weather and when clothes are required in a hurry.
|Post# 506949 , Reply# 2   3/26/2011 at 09:53 (4,642 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
wow, Thanks Matt!
As a related side question is Natural Gas plumbed it to houses common or not so common? Here in the USA in built up areas NG is rather common in many areas, and often used for heaters to heat the house in winter.
|Post# 506951 , Reply# 3   3/26/2011 at 10:43 (4,642 days old) by paulc (Edinburgh, Scotland)  || |
has a matching USA Whirlpool washer dryer set but she is the only person I know with a US dryer.
I myself do not have a dryer anymore. In our last place I had a Zanussi condenser dryer but as we get "free" heat and hot water in the place we are now and I have room to dry in doors I Have a big clothes horse I use in the winter. In the summer I hang washing out, weather permitting.
|Post# 506954 , Reply# 4   3/26/2011 at 10:52 (4,642 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)  || |
Very interesting international thread. More things we'll know about our friends.
In Brazil the first Dryer was launched late 60's and up to today it was never a big success like it is in the U.S.
Thanks to our "Hell's branch weather", even clothes poorly spun or just squeezed dry very fast in a line so everybody think the same, why will I spend money to buy an expensive machine, then spend more money to run it if it takes longer than the line?
It's obvious that some regions have colder weather so there the dryers are much more popular.
Gas dryers (Liquid Petrol Gas)are cheaper to run almost in the whole country but for some reason they weren't as popular as the electric models because they were always much more expensive than electric ones.
They were always 110V in almost the whole country, 220V in some cities where the power supply is 100% 220v
During the 80's and until today the most popular kind of dryer is the static dryer, that's hung on the wall. It has a flexible plastic or fabric chamber and clothes are hung. Those machines are very helpful during the winter (our winter is usually very short and not so cold) or when one needs to dry one or two garments in a hurry (they are faster than a tumble dryer in this case). The only problem is the clothes hard as sand paper after dry.
Tumble dryers started to become more popular a few years ago when LG launched their washer/dryer combo. These machines are a huge success here.
Electrolux launched the Ecoturbo Electric dryer (It's the same Frigidaire Affinity) 1st generation and recently they changed the model, the drum is bigger, but the design is the same. It's price is almost 120 american dollars more expensive than other models of tumble dryers, usually compact) (it costs around 750 dollars)
It's the first dryer that has a 4 prong plug (110v, 110v, neutral, ground) and this kind of plug is so rare here (it was used only for commercial appliances) that Electrolux had to remove the power cord and it's delivered and installed for free by the authorized service. (so they can check the wall outlet too to see if the phases are mounted ok as an inverted phase could blow the control board)
Brastemp (Whirlpool) launched Duet gas dryer and now Duet Black gas dryer (It's the same Maytag EPICz in the U.S.) It's an excellent dryer, but the price is outrageous (like everything from Brastemp) The dryer costs around 3500 dollars.
We don't have any kind of dryer products in Brasil. The manufacturers say brazilians don't use dryers enough to compensate launching dryer sheets, dryer bars, dryer "dry cleaning systems" etc.
Lint fires are very unusual here in Brazil. Most of the people don't vent their dryers as most of the people dry less than 10 full loads per year. Thanks to it, the dryers last almost forever here and it's common to find 30 years old dryers in mint condition. Our weather also helps to avoid condensation on the walls, the dryers dry really fast and the lint spreaded everywhere isn't a big problem as the dryers aren't used so much.
To compare and make my local weather more understandable: The summer in Miami is a little bit colder than spring in my region. Our summer is almost like a pyrolitic oven. LOL
If I wash a load at night and don't unload the washer, by the morning it's going to be 80% dry.
Washing sheets in a 800RPM top loader is great. The air flow during the last spin is enough to dry 60 to 70% of the load. I can even see those dry areas. Most of the times, the dryer takes longer than the line to dry light items like sheets and shirts.
|Post# 506977 , Reply# 5   3/26/2011 at 12:55 (4,642 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
Overhere in the Netherlands we have huge resources of natural gas, almost every house is connected to it.
There are hardly any gas dryers on the market here anymore. Except for the Huebsch (see link). But I have never seen one of those. Miele had a gas dryer for a while in their line of dryers, but apparently these didn't catch on.
Actually most dryers sold on the Dutch market are condenser dryers. And the heatpump dryers are getting more popular. Those types can only be made as electric dryers ofcourse.
In a lot of households the washer and dryer are placed in a bathroom, so a gas line is usually not available there. Besides that I think it's forbidden overhere to have gas appliances in a bathroom.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO foraloysius's LINK
|Post# 506979 , Reply# 6   3/26/2011 at 12:57 (4,642 days old) by donprohel (I live in Munich - Germany, but I am Italian)  || |
In Italy clothes drier are considered a sort of "exotic" device (and quite anti-ecological). I have never seen a gas drier in Italy, maybe Miele sold them, but with little success. Driers on market are electric and mainly condenser, for easier installation.
Electricity is expensive (or the country is poor, depends on the point of view) and the maximum allowed power for a house is normally 3 KW.
Houses usually have a space in the bathroom for a washing machine (60 × 60 cm - 24 × 24 in, which is the standard in Continental Europe, not only for appliances but also as the base size for furniture).
There is almost always a (sometimes small) balcony to line dry clothes outside, although sometimes condos regulations does not allow "exposing your dirty laundry" where it can be seen. Some condos have a common space to line dry.
|Post# 506981 , Reply# 7   3/26/2011 at 13:16 (4,642 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)  || |
Almost every home in the UK is connected to natural gas, except for in Northern Ireland and in extreme rural areas.
Apart from deep in the country and in Northern Ireland, the vast majority of homes have gas central heating and hot water.
Gas hobs are common, and to a lesser extent so are gas ovens (most people I know have fan assisted electric ovens now), even if they have a gas hob.
In Northern Ireland, there is no mains gas (at least that's what I've been told by my Northern Irish flatmate), so most houses either have oil heating, or have propane tanks.
|Post# 506982 , Reply# 8   3/26/2011 at 13:21 (4,642 days old) by nrones ()  || |
Dryers are foregin things here...
If people are drying their clothes in machine, then they are usually having a washer-dryer. People buy a washer-dryer, or a dryer if they must to, because they either don"t have balcony, or their balcony is looking on a street with 1000cars, so it is making white clothes black literally.
Some of them are rather buying a washer-dryer in one rather than separatley, because they say it"s easier to put in dry and dirty, and in sometime later get out dry and clean :) Know it"s a wrong theory but people seem to be really creative..
People would probobly buy dryers if they actually needed them too. Here weather is good enough most of the year, so everyone is hanging their clothes from March till November, and they rather won"t spend their money for 3 months of usage. In the winter, they are mostly hanging their clothes inside (i.e. hallway) on the thing like on the picture - these are most popular here.
For example in my case (I have dryer) I started hanging out clothes this year in beginning of March, and as far as I remember, I stopped with it last year in very late October ;)
|Post# 506991 , Reply# 9   3/26/2011 at 13:46 (4,642 days old) by dj-gabriele ()  || |
Maybe that was the situation some years ago but now clothes dryers are becoming more and more common place (compared to the past)!
I'd say that more than a house in ten has one. Heat pump dryers are being pushed aggressively by sellers, especially now that the Aqualtis heat pump dryer came out.
Also washer-dryers are quite widely sold and I'd say that Candy is market leader here, the Alisè line of machines is the first I remember!
Still many think (with reason) that using a mechanical dryer is an expensive and not environmentally friendly way to behave. Electricity in Italy is the most expensive in the OECD because the country is poor of natural resources (imports account for 85% raw energy) and must import between 10 to 25% of electricity from France because of the stupid referendum abolishing nuclear power!
Anyway, gas dryers are sold only as a special item and no "big" brand has them anymore, the preferred kind as "donprohel" said is the condenser one.
I've never seen or met anybody that has a "laundry pair" American style but only a stacked set with washing machine and dryer on top of it but the majority have dryer and washing machine of different brands.
Things may change as dryers become more commonplace.
Anyway, again I must say that all over the coast of Italy and the southern regions, a dryer is virtually unneeded, where my parents live, even in January clothes spun at 1200 rpm dry in less than 2 hours because of the constant strong wind! In summer you can just hang them and take back most of them after half an hour, way quicker than the quickest of the dryers.
Another thing is in the north, cities like Bologna or Milan or Turin have colder weather than say London! And dryers are a necessity if one doesn't want to dry indoors.
Said that, methane is piped all over the country except minor towns and remote areas so, in theory gas dryers would be way better than expensive electric ones!
|Post# 507022 , Reply# 10   3/26/2011 at 15:45 (4,642 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)  || |
In Australia, 99% of our dryers are 240v 10 amp, which limits them to 2400watts, they are usually 60cm x 60cm square or smaller. Clothes spun at 1600rpm take 90 to 120mins to dry.
Condensor dryers arent popular here and neither is venting. In most instances the dryer just vents straight into the room its located in, and you just crack a window open for ventilation.
I've removed the condensor from my miele dryer and just run it as vented these days. With our hot humid summers, it could take 3 plus hours for it to dry a load of clothes. There just isnt always enough temperature differential to condense the moisture.
My Miele dryer has a drum volume of approx 120L or about 4.2cubic feet. I can just fit a full load from its matching washer, but only just.
Speed Queen is the only domestic American dryer available on the market here now, Maytag is no longer available.
I only use the dryer when I'm feeling lazy or in a hurry, otherwise we've got a full size line in the garage and another outside. On a sunny day, I can have washed and dried 5 loads of washing by about 2pm, just with the clothes line. That is pretty normal behaviour here, unless its raining or damp, you just peg it out and let natural convection do its thing.
|Post# 507032 , Reply# 11   3/26/2011 at 16:25 (4,642 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)  || |
I use my dryer weekly for towels and underclothes - I like them soft against the skin without conditioner...
Other than that, I line dry.
From my machine spun at 1200rpm, and in a much dryer climate than Nathan, sheets are dry on the line in about 45 min in summer with no breeze and well under 45min with one....
Those same sheets in the dryer in an Australian dryer take about 45min in summer and just under an hour in winter....
If you told people you 'tumble dry everything', you'd be just about crucified in this country....even if you lived in a flat! Even in winter and wet weather, my mother frowns upon it...
|Post# 507034 , Reply# 12   3/26/2011 at 16:43 (4,642 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
If one has the room and can afford it, then it's one of the electric Euro dryers (condenser of course). For most however there is the age old French laundry day ritual, draping wet laundry over every available surface, indoor clothes lines, drying racks,out door balconies or railings, and so forth to dry.
The above applies to mostly those living in cities/urban areas. Obviously living in the country and or a private house one would have other options.
|Post# 507035 , Reply# 13   3/26/2011 at 16:44 (4,642 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
|Post# 507037 , Reply# 14   3/26/2011 at 16:49 (4,642 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Given the small (ok cramped, *LOL*) size of many urban French apartments, you are only going to find 5kg or so capacity washers anyway. Doing laundry then requires planning, and most certainly isn't the once a week or two week event as in the USA.
You simply do wash as it is ready, usually early in the morning or late at night, drape/hang things up to dry and either leave for work/shopping/etc or go to sleep.
King sized beds are rare in French apartments, so linens then to be either twin, or full/matrimonial (aka queen), so you aren't bothered by hanging large linens to dry.
Of course you can simply skip all this palaver and haul the lot down to a laundromat.
One reason for lack of dryers, even in French homes that could well afford one is the dear cost of electric. Given many apartments in France (especially those in older buildings), by code have cross ventilation due to windows on either side, drying does not take long as one might think.
|Post# 507038 , Reply# 15   3/26/2011 at 16:56 (4,642 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
|Post# 507053 , Reply# 16   3/26/2011 at 17:43 (4,642 days old) by brastemp (Brazil)  || |
Here in Brazil our common dryer are compacts vented like the european models. In most of cases eletrics. We have just one model of gas. I have one and I love cause eletricity in Brasil is expensive. People don't like or don't have habbit to use because our country is very hot and the clothes dry really fast. In general dryers are interesting for apartaments and storm season. In general the houses have no support to American Model Eletric Dryer, BTW, we have only electrolux affinity and the Electrolux assistance requires an unusual instalation with an exposed circuit Switch installed out off the wall. If you desagree they don't give the power cord.
|Post# 507064 , Reply# 17   3/26/2011 at 18:28 (4,642 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)  || |
Are collapsible clothes airers allowed? Nice topic here… I just wanted to spill a bit of my personal experience with drying clothes… swearing to keep it as short as possible :-)
I was living with my parents up to 1996 in a southern Italian island where hardly any1 bothers with separate clothes dryers (but washer-dryers are somewhat popular) due to the milder climate (however, it’s not always so) and in my case also due to the availability of an enclosed outdoor space with washing lines. My first personal encounter with a tumble dryer (electric) was when I moved to the UK. I was renting a room in a house provided with such machine, but nobody was using it and I decided to join the fun and spread my wet laundry over the radiators and the stairs handrail.
When I moved into my own house some time later I was given a compact tumble dryer by a friend but for some reason I kept using my old methods for several years to come: radiators and handrail! Till 1 day, urged by the presence of others, I decided to give it a go: it didn’t work! Although that wasn’t enough to make me through in the sponge… I went out and got a full size electric vented tumble dryer and I can frankly say that I have been bewitched by this appliance and I can’t do without!
Only recently I stopped using the dryer to dry a load right out of the washer… let’s say it’s my little vendetta against the electricity board since my capped prices expired last year, they had been fixed since 2005… and then… all of a sudden… ka-ching, big time… big bill! I have an unused room in which I can put clothes airers in without troubling any1… although I recently got a dehumidifier (uses much less electricity than a dryer) for obvious reasons.
My obsession for the tumble dryer is still alive and kicking… I haven’t managed to give up the softness and finish of tumble-dried laundry… so… my clothes go straight there after hanging on the airer even for just a short burst on low heat. Also they fold much easier that way and don’t need ironing ;-)
|Post# 507066 , Reply# 18   3/26/2011 at 18:31 (4,642 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California)  || |
I live in an area where virtually all neighborhoods are connected to piped natural gas. It costs roughly four times as much money to dry electrically versus with gas (caveat: this is a high cost area for electric power, some parts of USA have electricity priced at half of California prices). Most domestic dryers are offered in otherwise identical electric and gas models. Typically, the gas version will cost $30-60 more than the electric model, but the cost differential is quickly erased by the much lower cost of natural gas here. Outside of the heating season here (November-March), my gas bill is typically $8-11 per month, covering cooking on a gas range (hob + oven), gas tank water heater, and gas dryer (and gas barbecue on the patio). Half of the bill, about $5, is the "fixed system" cost that the gas company charges for maintaining its physical plant....and only $4-6 is actual gas usage.
Because electric generating capacity here is limited (maxed out), many cities now forbid new homes to have a 240V supply in the laundry area, to encourage people to use gas instead of electricity. If you move in with an electric dryer, your choices are to buy a gas model or rip out the wall to install 240V. Oddly, there is no rule against 240V cooktops and ovens in the kitchen, even though most homes are equipped with gas. Sometimes one sees a gas hob but double built-in electric ovens. I myself have an Frigidaire 30" gas range (five burners plus a large single self clean oven); behind the oven is a gas pipe and a 120V outlet. If I wanted electric cooking, I would have to rip out a wall and run another electric circuit in the wall to provide a 240V outlet. The only 240V outlet I have in the entire house is in the laundry area: the house was built a few years before the no-240V rule was enacted in mid-1990s. Since I have always used gas dryers, that outlet has never been used.
As I understand it, our electricity arrives at the electric meter in 240V, but is converted to 120V at the meter. Where a 240V outlet is required, two circuit wires are joined together (in parallel, I would assume) to provide 240V. US 240V are radically different in appearance from continental Europe or UK plugs.
|Post# 507071 , Reply# 19   3/26/2011 at 18:55 (4,642 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)  || |
In Germany the type of drier depends a lot in what type of building one lives.
In an appartement one would typically opt for a condenser drier as it only requires an outlet and can be placed in the kitchen, bathroom or anywhere else. I have mine hidden in the bedroom.
In contrast to the UK houses normally have a basement here, so if you live in a house the washer and drier is found in the cellar and in this case a vented drier would still be prefered, I think.
Linedrying in and outdoors is still very popular here to save energy.
|Post# 507078 , Reply# 20   3/26/2011 at 19:19 (4,642 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)  || |
Eduardo, what did you mean about "exposed circuit Switch installed out off the wall"?
Wasn't your installation fully built in the wall?
Mine was installed according to the user manual instructions, with a dedicate circuit breaker in the circuit breakers board and that 4 hole "twist to lock" outlet, which is the same size of an standard wall box and fit it the same way, with options of rectangle, square, patch on (for wooden walls), external (with a waterproof cover to protect from rain and even modular systems with interchangeable decorative panels. It's the same standard used in most of the U.S. dryers for many years and as far as I know, nobody in the U.S. need to keep their wires or circuit breakers exposed. Any live wire exposed is dangerous!
This is only a "new" kind of outlet that matches standards much more advanced than the older brazilian standards and people should get used to it the same way we're getting used to the new brazilian standard outlets.
In some older homes as most of them were not built to receive any kind of dryer or heavier equipment or appliance, no matter what kind of electric dryer one buys, it should be rewired anyway if the owner wants to be safe and respect the ABNT codes. Sometimes those houses still using fuses instead of circuit breakers, and some other houses have a tiny circuit breaker board, that should be replaced by a bigger board to recieve all the circuit breakers a standard modern house needs. (in most of the cases with more than 15 independent GFCI circuit breakers like here)
Now the same thing is happening with the new outlet standards. Most people replace only the outlet and it's risky if they still using the old style (up to 10 amp) wires for 20 amp outlets. Worst of all, most people don't hire electricians, they just do by themselve, ignoring even the ground prong.
Here my whole apartment was rewired as the condominium comission decided it was going to be much cheaper if we hire a company to rewire the whole building at once instead of each apartment hire a self employed electrician to do this service. We all decided to install 100% of the outlets 20A as it can receive both 10 and 20A plugs. than we asked them to don't replace some specific outlets were older appliances with the old 3 prong plug were permanently connected. As it was fully rewired, if someday I decide to replace an older a/c for example, i'll have to replace only the outlet because the new wiring is already there.
I also enjoyed this rewiring to pass more wires to install a second dedicated 30 amp/4 prong outlet if someday i decide to get a second dryer, plus upgraded the relay connected to the emergency stop switch to drop the oven, dishwashers and microwave (up to then it would drop only the laundry room outlets)
And I believe any manufacturer is acting absolutelly correct if they refuse to deliver the cable if the wiring isn't according to the standards. It protects both the manufacturer and the user. And could even prevent damages and deaths caused by fires. What if the user replace only the outlet ignoring the safety standards, overload the circuit and cause a fire? Almost nobody is going to say "I ignored the standards and it caused a fire". What most people will say is "i bought a dryer and it caused a fire, now I want the manufacturer to rebuilt my house" Don't forget most of the brazilians don't even open the plastic bag that contains the user guide.
|Post# 507105 , Reply# 21   3/26/2011 at 22:04 (4,642 days old) by brastemp (Brazil)  || |
Sorry Thomas, but I just read this on the electrolux website: eden.electrolux.com.br/Eden_Brazi...
|Post# 507117 , Reply# 22   3/26/2011 at 23:16 (4,641 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)  || |
Yes Eduardo, that's exactly what they say and do.
You buy the dryer. the installation of the machine (power cord installation, vent instalation, leveling, stacking on a matching washer or pedestal drawer (if it the user opted to buy the pedestal), door reversion (if the owner needs to revert the door)and the power cord with plug is made by the authorized service, 100% free.
The service technitians are instructed to test the outlet and check if the phases are correct. they should also check if the circuit breaker is 30A and the wires are 6mm.
If the owner or the electrician have any doubt about how to install the wall outlet, they just need to leave the 4 wires ready then the the Electrolux service will also install properly the outlet (This installation is free too). The consumer only has to buy the wall outlet. Electrolux also sells it as accessory. The technician should arrive at consumers house with the power cord in a bag (the consumer doesn't pay for this cord)
If the wires or the outlet or the circuit breaker aren't according to the specifications, they can refuse to install the power cord on the dryer and you have to reschedule another visit after you have a proper (safe) wiring.
Of course they are not responsible for the wiring readequation, that's the same as buying a car and require the car manufacturer to pay for your gasoline refills.
|Post# 507247 , Reply# 23   3/27/2011 at 12:14 (4,641 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
Thank to all for the SUPER responses; please add more too!
|Post# 507256 , Reply# 24   3/27/2011 at 12:32 (4,641 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
"As I understand it, our electricity arrives at the electric meter in 240V, but is converted to 120V at the meter. Where a 240V outlet is required, two circuit wires are joined together (in parallel, I would assume) to provide 240V. US 240V are radically different in appearance from continental Europe or UK plugs."
In the USA roughly about 1947 New houses being built required 240 Volt service and meters.
With a USA 240 Volt meter and circuit breaker panel; there are often in a house two hot wires that are 120 volts to Neutral and then there is the Neutral wire and ground wire. At the meter the Neutral and ground wire are connected together. The Neutral white wire is close to ground in voltage; it can be pulled off a volt or two at a actual socket; or a subpanel that has a separate neutral and ground bus bar.
To get "240 volts" one just uses a two pole breaker and thus one uses both hot wires. This is how a bigger AC unit; a 240 volt dryer; a 240 volt kitchen range gets its input; through a double breaker.
Basically about all ww2 and later houses have 240 volts at the meter and fuse or circuit breaker box. The "120 volt" single breakers or single fuses just feed normal plugs. Then single breaker just uses the neutral wire plus either hot Leg A or hot Leg B. Even if a house has NO 240 volt devices; the circuit panel has both lugs. The breakers are placed such both hot legs are used; to "balance the load". If you measure between the hot socket hole(s)in 120 volt outlet(s) in the kitchen and ones bedroom; one might get 240 volts since each socket is on a different leg ie a or b.
Thus there really is no "conversion" to 120 volts at the meter; it is already there as either wire A or wire B to neutral.
A to N is 120 volts AC
B to N is 120 volts AC
A to B is 240 volts AC
In NON USA places like New Zealand, there is no neutral for the nominal 230 volt service. An alarm clock has 240 volts going to it.
|Post# 507258 , Reply# 25   3/27/2011 at 12:37 (4,641 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
In Ireland, given the climate (it rains a lot!), dryers are very commonly found in most houses these days.
However, we tend to use much higher spin speed washing machines than you do in the US and that is always a consideration as you want to keep drying times to a minimum. So, it's quite normal to have a 1600 RPM spin on your washing machine these days. Many people would consider 1200 RPM the minimum.
Most dryers, maybe 90% are electric. 230V 50Hz is the only power delivered to homes in Europe. Only large commercial dryers might use 3-phase (400V 50Hz).
The majority of domestic dryers, are standard European style machines. They're typically between 2500W and 3000W (so they can be plugged into any normal Irish socket outlet) and are either vented or condensing. Increasingly, people seem to be opting for condensing dryers. There are also some heat-pump dryers available, although they're a bit pricy, but they do save a lot of energy.
Some households do use gas dryers, these run on natural gas or LPG. They're sometimes tend to be designs similar to those found in North America E.g. see this link : www.flogas.ie/flogasforliving/gas... although they operate at 230V 50Hz.
They're just 230V 50Hz versions of various Speed Queens and whirlpools.
There are also smaller natural gas dryers, particularly by White Knight, which are standard European sizes.
Drying outdoors is practical here, if the weather's good. However, you do need the tumble dryer as a back up.
Some apartment developments here have contracts that ban the use of indoor airers in view of windows or on balconies, so in those cases almost 100% of laundry has to be tumble dryed which is a bit of a waste of energy in my opinion. (Apartment living in Ireland is pretty unpopular, most people live in houses)
|Post# 507259 , Reply# 26   3/27/2011 at 12:39 (4,641 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
I forgot to mention that the vast majority of modern dryers here, other than really BOL models, are sensor controlled. It's relatively unusual to find modern dryers with timed-only controls.
However, if you go back even maybe 10 years ago, sensor-drying was a bit of a high price TOL feature only.
|Post# 507270 , Reply# 27   3/27/2011 at 13:43 (4,641 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)  || |
i have two european 24"condenser dryers;
-2002 splendide combomatic 6100e-washer/dryer combo made in italy;
-around 1100-1200watt heater
-8 LBs rated dryer mode capacity
-"old skool"technology-minimal electronics
-water cooled condensing action
-takes about 1.5-2 hrs to dry a typical load.
-2010 asko T712C-made in sweden;
-single direction tumble
-several automatic sensed cycles + a fixed 60min timed cycle
-takes about 45-60 min to dry typical load with around 65*condenser input
-air cooled condenser
-usually extracts about i qt.of water with typical load.
These 24"european machines are not at all common in the u.s.-the splendide
most often found onboard boats,RVs,luxury campers,
both of these machines were bought shipping damaged from a damaged goods
store and fixed up
|Post# 507286 , Reply# 28   3/27/2011 at 14:56 (4,641 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)  || |
The non 110v countries get 230v line to neutral, not line to line.
In most areas, you have 3 phase power running past your house, IE L1, L2, L3, N and each house is just connected to a Phase conductor and Neutral.
Line to line here gives you about 380v. You also may only see a transformer every couple of streets rather than every house.
I guess its the advantage of not being the first to develop a distribution system.
|Post# 507319 , Reply# 29   3/27/2011 at 16:46 (4,641 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
Hi Nathan; good point.
What I learned is that non usa stuff on 230 volts ac tends to be about almost *always one side is a neutral*, but *not* *always*.
Thus when I worked for one of the seven dwarf computer companies we designed so the two input wires were 230 volts, but they could be reversed or one not at a neutral too. ie products went all over the place and we got burned by an oddball exception.
A large factory overseas might have the main voltages higher than 230 volts times the square root of 3. ie higher than 400 volts; ie higher than 230*1.73. Thus they would for our computer product install a step down transformer; and often just let the output side float and thus the 230 volts would not have one leg close to earth/zero volts. I have seen where they tied the output centertap to ground and thus the 230 volts was like the USA's two legs of 120 volts to ground.
Probably most all non usa 230 volt stuff has one side a neutral, but a non plugged install were one hard wires a product, or an install in a factory can have the one side not at a neutral voltage. In product design one of these odd acceptions can cause issues.
When in New Zealand 20 years ago for awhile; I saw where the 230 volts was not with one line close to ground, in a super rural area that the farm house had fuses. In the city areas and motels etc all were with one 230 volt side as a neutral close to earth ie zero voltage.
Any odd exceptions in the world are often odd,old, jackleg, in a custom factory.
|Post# 507330 , Reply# 30   3/27/2011 at 17:20 (4,641 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
The de facto standard single phase European plug used in most countries is known as 'Schuko' or CEE 7/X. CEE 7/7 is the grounded version and CEE 7/16 is the non-grounded version for small appliances.
The CEE 7/X family of plugs is *not* polarised i.e. you can insert the plugs either way.
As a result *all* appliances on sale in Europe must be designed to be perfectly safe regardless of whether the phase and neutral are reversed.
The plugs used in the UK and Ireland are polarised and can only be inserted in one way.
Also, when CEE 7/7 plugs are used in French sockets, they are polarised as there's a grounding pin which prevents the plug from being inserted the 'wrong' way.
N = 0V (Blue)
L1 = 230V (Brown)
L2 = 230V (Black)
L3 = 230V (Grey)
Ground =0V (Yellow & Green stripes)
Phase to Phase = 400V
The standard CEE 7 socket outlet rated 16Amps (Grounding connectors are the clips at the top and bottom of the socket recess. The recessed socket is designed to make it impossible to touch the pins when you're inserting the plug.
|Post# 507331 , Reply# 31   3/27/2011 at 17:23 (4,641 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
The plug and socket used in the UK and Ireland is rated 13amps and carries an internal fuse (rated from 3 amps to 13 amps depending on the appliance).
This is required because the UK and Ireland allow "ring circuits" which basically means that sockets are connected on a 32amp power bus which runs around all of the sockets in a given area. This is protected by a 32amp breaker + RCD (GFCI) which is sufficient to protect the house wiring and you from electric shock but, local fusing is required for the appliance.
The appliance and its cable are protected by the local fuse in the plug itself. Every plug in this system has a fuse and it is impossible (due to interlocked shutters) to insert anything other than a BS1363 plug into the socket outlet. (the ground pin, must go in first, followed by equal pressure on the line and neutral 'holes' to open the socket).
|Post# 507332 , Reply# 32   3/27/2011 at 17:25 (4,641 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
Here's the pic of the UK / Ireland plug type BS1363.
Rated 13amps max. (Delivers just shy of 3000W at 230V)
|Post# 507335 , Reply# 33   3/27/2011 at 17:27 (4,641 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
Here's where the fuse goes.
|Post# 507337 , Reply# 34   3/27/2011 at 17:31 (4,641 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)  || |
All Australian homes are fused at the meter with either 'old style' breakable wired fuses for each particular circuit (lights, hot water, power points etc) or with circuit breakers, as in our case.
We have the following...
30amp - stove
20amp - power
20amp - power
20amp - power
20amp - power
20amp - power
20amp - airconditioner
20amp - airconditioner (was hot water...we've now got gas so the ignition runs off a normal power point)
10amp - lights
10amp - lights
I should add, that this is a very large house given it was built in 1981...330sqm/3600sqft (including garages) and seems to have been 'over fused' for the time....
|Post# 507339 , Reply# 35   3/27/2011 at 17:36 (4,641 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)  || |
Somebody please post a picture of an american standard modern dryer plug and outlet.
Please correct me if i'm wrong. gas models usually have the 3 prong plug (2 flat, 1 round) and electric models have the 4 prong "twist to unlock" plug. Am I right?
|Post# 507357 , Reply# 36   3/27/2011 at 18:11 (4,641 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Is that outside of the Untied States it is not always common to find piped natural gas supplies, especially outside of major urban areas. Thus what gas there is, is often tanked propane.
This has much to do with the rather low supplies of natural resources aside from coal, found in most of the EU/UK. IIRC, natural gas to much of the UK is piped from Norway and or other countries up that way where petrol can be found, including their own North Sea operations.
Given the old, in some cases very old housing stock in many EU/UK countries installing gas lines could pose a problem. However many homes that were built and or reconfigured to accept coal gas (used for lighting), find those gas lines are still active though it is natural gas coming out of the pipes.
Remember watching "1900 House" when they were converting the "modern" Victorian town house back to it's original turn of the last century status. All the workmen had to do was remove the caps/seals from the lighting fixtures, and gas (natural) came out.
I lived in an older apartment building in Brooklyn where the gas lines for lighting were still in the walls. One neighbor who had lived for decades in the place told me a story. For years she couldn't figure out why the power company was sending her bills for gas. The only appliance in the apartments that used the stuff was the range, and that was included with the rent. To settle the matter ConEd sent a work crew out to examine the building/apartment. It turned out the gas lines for lighting were still active! Apparently when the buidling was wired for electric no one bothered to seal off the gas for the lines coming from the street. Hard to imagine that for generations residents of that building were *that* close to getting the "Gaslight Treatment*
|Post# 507365 , Reply# 37   3/27/2011 at 18:23 (4,641 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
Yeah, ours is similar, but there are also fuses in all plugs here.
Distribution board is like this:
Main Fuse 100A (Covers whole panel)
Main isolating switch (Whole panel)
Sockets Kitchen - 20A RCD I @30mA
Sockets Kitchen - 20A RCD I @30mA
Sockets Utility Room - 20A RCD I @30mA
Sockets Utility Room - 20A RCD I @30mA
Sockets Living Room - 20A RCD 2 @30mA
Sockets Dining Room - 20A RCD 2 @30mA
Sockets Study - 20A RCD 2 @30mA
Garage - 20A RCD 2 @30mA
Sockets Bedroom 1 - 20A RCD 3 @30mA
Sockets Bedroom 2- 20A RCD 3 @30mA
Sockets Bedroom 2 - 20A RCD 3 @30mA
Sockets Bedroom 4 - 20A RCD 3 @30mA
Outside sockets 16A RCBO @30mA
Bathroom lighting & Fans (all bathrooms) 10A RCBO @ 10mA
Lighting living room + dining room 10A RCBO @30mA
Lighting Kitchen 10A RCBO @30mA
Lighting study + halls 10A RCBO @30mA
Lighting Bedroom 1 + 2 10A RCBO @30mA
Lighting Bedroom 3+ 4 + hall 10A RCBO @30mA
Outside lights 10 A RCBO @30mA
Central Heating System 6A RCBO @30mA
Water Heater 20A RCD 2 @30mA
Home network gear : 16A RCD 2 @30mA
Fridge/Freezer : 16A RCBO @30mA
RCBO = combined MCB (Circuit Breaker) and RCD (GFCI)
RCD = Residual Current Device (GFCI)
Each RCD is numbered and controls a number of circuits.
|Post# 507374 , Reply# 38   3/27/2011 at 18:39 (4,641 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)  || |
...all the bedrooms in this house have 4 x 230v 10amp power points with the main having 6...
Lounge room has 6...
Dining room has 4
Family room has 6
Garage has 8
Laundry only 1 (what gives here??? I want 6!)
Bathroom has 2
Outside 2x2 in diferent locations
Upstairs hall has 2 x10amp and 1x15amp (for the airconditioner)
...and 11 in the kitchen
There are power points everywhere....trust me, we may have to run power boards for entertainment (TV, amp, DVD...etc), but nothing like we used to....
|Post# 507387 , Reply# 39   3/27/2011 at 19:04 (4,641 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
Kitchen : 19
Utility : 6
Living Room : 8
Dining Room : 6
Master Bedroom : 8
Bedroom 1: 4
Bedroom 2: 4
Bedroom 3: 4
Hallway : 2
Bathrooms : 1 X isolation transformer supplied shaver socket in each (normal sockets are illegal here in bathrooms)
Garage : 2
Outside : 4 (Weather proof)
Attic : 2 (for data equipment)
I am counting each socket, most of them are double plates so they're counted as "2".
|Post# 507388 , Reply# 40   3/27/2011 at 19:08 (4,641 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)  || |
|Post# 507412 , Reply# 41   3/27/2011 at 20:03 (4,641 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
The vast majority of homes in Europe are heated with natural gas and natural gas cooking is also pretty popular. For some reason though, gas tumble dryers never really have been much more than a niche item. I am not entirely sure why that is as they are cheaper to run.
Gas, initially coal-gas, has been used in European cities for as long as it has been in existence and was introduced to homes as early as the 1807, so it drastically predates the 1900 house :)
In the UK and Ireland, gas-fired hydronic (water-filled radiator) heating systems are by far the most common in use.
I don't think that you'll find much natural gas in rural anywhere, including the United States. It's not economic to provide remote houses with network connections.
So, in rural areas, if gas is used, it's usually LPG (liquified petroleum gas) i.e. propane delivered by bulk tanker or in over-sized canisters.
Re: Northern Ireland Natural Gas.
Natural gas is available in Northern Ireland. It's just not provided by the same companies as Britain.
There are connections to Northern Ireland from the gas grid in Britain and from the Republic of Ireland. The two main suppliers of Natural Gas up there are Phoenix Energy and Firmus (which is owned by BGE, the main gas company in the Republic of Ireland)
Because a lot of Ireland (North and South) is relatively rural / non-dense urban you will tend to find that there are probably a higher % of LPG (propane) installations than in say the South of England. But, natural gas is widely available in any major urban area and even some quite small/middle sized towns.
Natural gas came on stream in the Republic of Ireland in the 1970s when the Kinsale Head Gas field was discovered. It rapidly replaced "town gas" (coal gas) just as it did in Britain after the discovery of gas in the North Sea in the 1960s/70s.
Northern Ireland remained "off grid" until the 1990s though!
Natural gas network in Ireland : (Gas fields : Corrib Gas and Kinsale Gas)
|Post# 507574 , Reply# 42   3/28/2011 at 11:40 (4,640 days old) by logixx (Germany)  || |
I ALWAYS use the dryer - it's just part of "doing laundry" for me. Even though we have a rotary clothes dryer in our garden, actually a quite expensive one that retracts the lines into its "arms" when not in use to keep them clean, I never use it. I much prefer using the dryer: no bleaching from the sun, no roughness, no creases and no stink. I know, some people say they love the smell of laundry dried outside but I don't. The air around here is pretty clean - after all, I'm practically surrounded by trees in this area of Germany - yet, I think air-dried clothes smell nasty. I either want them to smell of softener or of nothing. Also, I can't stand to fiddle around with every little sock, piece of underwear etc. etc. No! Just toss it all in the dryer and let the sensors take care of everything.
As for dryers themselves: the most common type of tumble dryer in Germany is the sensor-controlled condenser dryer. Out of the approx. 50 dryers we have on the sales floor, only three are vented and not a single one is time-controlled. We do have (and sell) an increasing amount of heat-pump dryers, as they typically use half the energy of a traditional dryer. Gas dryer are practically non-existent. As are dryers that are larger than 24x24 inches - unless one would get a professional unit, of course.
Capacity-wise, the largest drums are 4.2 cu.ft., which is enough for 13 lbs. Yet, some manufacturers claim their dryers hold almost 20 pounds, which, I guess, they do but the result will be a wrinkled mess. Most dryers change drum rotation like a washing machine, although Bosch/Siemens and others make uni-directional dryers these days. Our Electrolux changes direction every five minutes for about 10 seconds. Miele dryers have a sensor that can detect a balled-up load and reverse accordingly.
Another difference is the moisture-sensing system: most (all?) US dryer with moisture sensors (not Auto Dry) have metal bars either at the front or back of the drum. Typically, European dryers use the drum vanes as sensors, which works very precisely. Our dryer actually uses the entire drum to sense moisture so even a single item can be dried on a sensor setting! If no clothes are in the drum, it'll shut off within seconds. That's how good the sensors are. Again, some manufactures (Bosch/Siemens) are using the "metal bar" system on their Euro units, too.
We also didn't have more than two temp settings until recently. Normal (+/- 158F) or low (+/- 122F). What I wonder is how do US dryers control their five different settings? I suppose they just turn the heater on and off? Especially gas dryers? German dryers - being electric - have two heaters, which they engage according to the temp selected. Our dryer has a 1000W and a 1400W element. Combined or individually, they are cycled throughout the drying process.
Full stainless steel drums are the norm. Glass doors can be had from many manufacturers, now.
|Post# 507605 , Reply# 43   3/28/2011 at 12:43 (4,640 days old) by hydralique (Los Angeles)  || |
Are these the type that use some tap water to dissipate the heat from drying, or is there another method?
|Post# 507606 , Reply# 44   3/28/2011 at 12:44 (4,640 days old) by joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)  || |
|Post# 507607 , Reply# 45   3/28/2011 at 12:45 (4,640 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
|Post# 507608 , Reply# 46   3/28/2011 at 12:49 (4,640 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
On older US electric dryers there is just a thermostat that cycles on and off that controls the temperature.
My old 1976 Westinghouse dryer is about 23 amps at 240 single phase; or 20 amps for 3 phase 208 volts; or about 13 to 14 amps when wired for only 120 volts.
Mine is today on 240 volts plugged into a 30 amp socket; with #10 wire in the wall to a 30 amp double pole breaker. #10 wire is about 1/10 inch dia; approx 2.5mm.
An old dryer like mine uses the Neutral too; the AC motor runs on one 120 volt leg; the heater coil on 240 volts for 5400 watts and just say 1400 watts when on 120 volts ie low heat setting.
Westinghouse and some other brands used the coil at 1/2 voltage for low heat settings.
Other electric dryer makers in the USA use a special thermostat; that has an interal heater. They "heat" thermostat up to get a low temp setting, the thermostat has many leads. The dryers low and mid heat settings are with external resistors that vary the heat "inside" the thermostat; to alter the temp at which cycling happens.
My own 1976 westinghouse dryer heats up the air with coils and this passes through the drum; then through the door, through the suction blower blower below and by the THERMOSTAT; then goes outside in the 4" /100mm vent tube.
The thermostat turns off about 145F to 150 F and back on say 10 to 15 F lower
|Post# 507610 , Reply# 47   3/28/2011 at 12:52 (4,640 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
|Post# 507617 , Reply# 48   3/28/2011 at 13:20 (4,640 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
|Post# 507619 , Reply# 49   3/28/2011 at 13:22 (4,640 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
|Post# 507623 , Reply# 50   3/28/2011 at 13:47 (4,640 days old) by hydralique (Los Angeles)  || |
I thought modern condenser dryers used room air for cooling and so was amazed at the lack of vented dryers on the European market, given that they're often located in kitchens rather than laundry rooms or garages. I'm aware that winter temperatures in Europe are often quite cold aside from Mediterranean climates - I've spent time in eastern France and Germany during the winter - but it can get unpleasantly hot and humid in the summer. Cutting a dryer vent in most walls, even masonry walls, is no big thing, so I wonder why there are so few vented dryers? And in the warmer parts of Spain and Italy I can't imagine paying European electrical rates to keep the a/c going while the dryer heats up the room!
|Post# 507633 , Reply# 51   3/28/2011 at 14:06 (4,640 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
|Post# 507642 , Reply# 52   3/28/2011 at 14:25 (4,640 days old) by dj-gabriele ()  || |
I'm sure nobody would use a dryer in summer in Italy also because the "standard" power contract is limited to 3,3kW of power and with "high-power" contracts limited to 6,6 kW, so at best you have 15 or 30 Ampere at 230V!
|Post# 507660 , Reply# 53   3/28/2011 at 15:54 (4,640 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
I'm not entirely sure about the energy efficiency of air-to-air condensor dryers either to be honest. I would like to see a side-by-side comparison.
We have a vented Miele dryer and it's a fantastic machine. It just dries reliably, quickly and doesn't produce crinkles or over-heated clothes.
It's going strong, without a single repair since 1998 and still looks new.
That machine gets used almost daily.
I have found that some condensors run very hot and they also seem to take a very long time to dry compared to vented dryers.
I am not really sure why they became so popular in Europe. From what I can see it's mostly marketing hype.
I have even seen people install condensors in utility rooms that already had ducting for dryer venting pre-installed!
|Post# 507665 , Reply# 54   3/28/2011 at 15:58 (4,640 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)  || |
As Gabriele says, you would never use the dryer in that weather (there's no point)
Also, even in Southern Europe, A/C is nowhere near as widespread as it is in the US. Some homes have them, but from what I've seen in Spain and Italy, many (most?) do not.
In the UK, A/C it's basically non-existant (especially in domestic environments), and it's use reserved for large shops and office buildings, even then, it wouldn't be used very much at all.
|Post# 507678 , Reply# 55   3/28/2011 at 16:21 (4,640 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Cannot speak for the rest of Europe, but at least in Paris and other parts of France with strict building zoning, it is either a condenser dryer or nothing. One simply cannot drill holes into walls of those Baron Haussmann buildings to make a vent. Indeed think that applies to most all "older" (and we're talking anything still standing from the 1600's through perhaps built just prior or after WWII. Same goes for air conditioning, which also explains those portable units with ducting that goes out a window.
IIRC, consumer magazine tests on both sides of the pond usually put vented dryers ahead of condensers in terms of drying time. As for water cooled condenser dryers, only remember seeing one of those. It was in our high school's "home ec" suite. For some reason "Whirlpool" sticks in my mind, though many here in the group say it wasn't possible. Only remember teacher having to turn on a water tap behind the machine before starting up the unit. This she complained about bitterly as having to use the thing even during a "water shortage". However can see why it was installed. The classroom suite did not face an exterior wall, and there was no way to run ducting to where it could exit. As the school still stands and is use, wonder if the dryer remains?
|Post# 507693 , Reply# 56   3/28/2011 at 16:59 (4,640 days old) by hydralique (Los Angeles)  || |
I am not surprised that there is a market for condenser dryers in Europe, what surprises me is that there is virtually no market for vented dryers (as Logixx notes above only 3 out of 50 dryers on a showroom floor).
As far as using the dryer in the summer, I see good reasons to do this. If your yard has lots of trees as mine does, there may not be much place to put a clothesline in a location that's both attractive and not under the trees, and if you dry under the trees you're going to get bird droppings plus the shade inhibits drying. In addition, many people leave in the morning for work at 8:00 to get there by 9:00, and don't get home until 6:00 at the earliest. That really doesn't leave much time for hanging clothes, especially if you often do your laundry in the evening. When I was a small child my mother line dried all her wash. It smelled great and was fun to help with, but at that time she was a stay at home housewife and had the time to do it. Once she went back to work everything went into the dryer.
|Post# 507696 , Reply# 57   3/28/2011 at 17:10 (4,640 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
Here on the Miss coast it was so hot Sunday that I turned on one AC unit; since the humidity was so high inside that my glasses kept fogging up.
In line drying of clothes this time of year sometimes one gets gobs of pollen, thus line drying gets pollen all over ones items.
Sometimes a humid approach is used, the line is used to mostly dry items then the dryer is used to fully dry and fluff towels and fully dry jeans.
In big casinos locally; AC units are running often in January where many folks are bunched together, while other parts of the casinos are using heat. ie both heating and cooling in the same building.
|Post# 507703 , Reply# 58   3/28/2011 at 17:53 (4,640 days old) by dj-gabriele ()  || |
Exact, as Matt pointed out, Air conditioning is a "new" thing to have in the house, if you look at the 2010 situation, only around 40% of the houses of my town had air conditioning and most only in the bedrooms.
My family was one of the first to put aircon in the 90s and at the time it was regarded as an expensive luxury!
And I must say it is! With our prices, the electric bill for june and july alone, usually is around 400-500 euros (570-710 USD)!!!!
At the moment we're putting on a new tri-split De Longhi inverter airconditioner for the bedrooms and two separate machines for the living rooms and kitchen
|Post# 507707 , Reply# 59   3/28/2011 at 18:00 (4,640 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
In Los Angeles I just had a piece of R59 white coax cable why high above the 5 foot long shower/tub; held be two screw eyes. It was so dry that bluejeans would dry bone dry in 1/2 day, plus it added a tad of humidity that was needed too. If it was humid I just had this dinky fan aimed at the items to accelerate the drying to a few hours for bluejeans, often minutes for shirts.
|Post# 507714 , Reply# 60   3/28/2011 at 18:17 (4,640 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
One thing Americans complained of bitterly when visiting the UK/EU was the lack of AC. Those from the otherside of the pond complain bitterly that many American homes,businesses, and or public accomodations are like meat freezers!
One gentleman from Spain even wrote to the New York Times moaning that every shop or place he and his wife visited on their recent trip to NYC that summer were ice cold. He also wondered why something couldn't be done to moderate the temperature.
Growing up in the 1970's AC was a luxury, especially whole house central versions. Many persons had a unit in the living room and or perhaps the master bedroom, but that was about it. Then as with all consumer goods as prices came down everyone seemed to have them everywhere.
Since neither my nor my siblings bedrooms had AC as we grew up, really am not that bothered sleeping even on a quite hot/humid summer's night. However that applies to "NYC heat", once you get down Sawth things are different. That heat and damp coming off the Gulf can make one puddle in matter of seconds.
Think in some ways this move to everyone having ACs killed the fun summer nights of yesterday. I can well remember a hot summer's night would find our street (and most everyone else's one assumes), filled with children playing, adults sitting on the steps/out in the yard etc all because it was simply "too hot inside". People went for drives, or down-town to walk around or even to a movie, lounge or any place else that was "air conditioned". Now you can walk up most areas buck naked on a hot summer night and no one would know. The streets are deserted as everyone is indoors with shut windows enjoying the AC.
To me this is why many parts of Europe, especially the furhter south one goes have such a vibrant night life. Having had ages of time to work out how to live with the climate, people adapt.
|Post# 507717 , Reply# 61   3/28/2011 at 18:23 (4,640 days old) by hydralique (Los Angeles)  || |
A few years ago when our old dryer died (drum fractured and a roller snagged, it was truly worn out) we had to go a few days without a dryer until our new one was delivered. We ended up hanging clothes on hangers all over the orange tree in the backyard - it looked a bit like a demented acid-trip version of a Christmas tree! That was fun for awhile but lost its luster very rapidly - I can only imagine what the neighbors thought :)
|Post# 507725 , Reply# 62   3/28/2011 at 18:45 (4,640 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
AC in Ireland is a bit of a waste of time / energy / and totally pointless.
The typical temperatures here simply do not warrant it. It's the same in the UK really too, although the Southeast of England can get a little bit warm in summer compared to the rest of Britain and Ireland. Also, the London underground "the tube" in summer is often just painfully warm. It's totally non-air conditioned and only ventilated by the pressure of the trains moving through the tunnels. Good old 19th century engineering!
Peak summer temperatures around here are about 19-25ºC. (66ºF to 77ºF)
30ºC would be pretty unusual anything above 30ºC would be an absolute shocking heatwave worthy of tabloid "Phew!! what a scorcher!" headlines
Basically, the normal climate here is like a cool air conditioned room anyway.
|Post# 507727 , Reply# 63   3/28/2011 at 18:50 (4,640 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
Here's some info on typical Irish temperatures - hence the lack of need for AC !!
I still don't really understand the logic of the popularity of condensor dryers here though. There's absolutely nothing stopping most people from installing a vented dryer in most homes.
95% of people live in houses, and drilling a hole in the wall with a core drill is pretty simple and is done quite regularly for other reasons e.g. adding extract hood vents, gas boiler flue vents, bathroom fans etc etc .
CLICK HERE TO GO TO Mrx's LINK
|Post# 507744 , Reply# 64   3/28/2011 at 19:34 (4,640 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Must say really am not bothered by lack of AC when in most parts of France, well at least Paris and parts north as well.
Paris is actually a bit north of NYC by latitude, and unlike here it is rare one wakes up to the "dog days of summer" heat common from say late July through August. Yes, Paris can be hot in the afternoon especially in August, but by the time early evening and certainly by nightfall (the sun does not go down until almost well after 9PM in summer), it is much cooler. Indeed one often requires a sweater or jacket if going out. Thus can see how easy it is to get on without AC.
One other great thing about Paris apartments is that most are built with cross ventilation, something usually lacking in NYC unless you have a really huge flat.
|Post# 507748 , Reply# 65   3/28/2011 at 19:49 (4,640 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
Air-cooled condenser dryers run hotter and use almost 25% more electricity than vented dryers. No harm meant but Europeans do not take dryers as seriously as we do in the US. Normally the Europeans are very very energy efficient in many ways that that we
could learn from, but I have always been amazed that gas dryers were so uncommon in Europe which proves my point about taking dryers seriously. Also it is about impossible to dry large items like mens jeans in a 24"and get wrinkle free clothes.
|Post# 507750 , Reply# 66   3/28/2011 at 19:56 (4,640 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)  || |
Myself, and everyone I know does it all the time, and they are not wrinkled at all.
I'm sure this discussion has come up on here before, but a modern condenser works out ever so slightly more efficient than an electric vented dryer and there is no heat loss from the room.
I guess because we use dryers so much less, and there are a lot less of them, the issue of how efficient they are is less important (but still relevant).
I'd imagine in the next 10-15 years or so, heat pump dryers will become commonplace, which are a lot more efficient than any gas or standard electric dryer.
No dryer is more efficient than a clothesline anyway! :)
|Post# 507758 , Reply# 67   3/28/2011 at 20:20 (4,640 days old) by Mrx ()  || |
Yeah, I have to say, no wrinkle problems whatsoever in our dryer.
|Post# 507759 , Reply# 68   3/28/2011 at 20:32 (4,640 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Well as one who spent the weekend doing several loads of wash in the Miele, then drying in a vintage Whirlpool 24" dryer, I take exception to that remark! *LOL*
Towels, T-Shirts, the lot all came out wrinkle free, and that was after loads were spun in the spin dryer for 5 to 7 minutes. If there is anything that will put in creases, a spin dryer will do it.
Have also dried jeans in my dryer, but never until they are crispy. Mainly just enough to work out any wrinkles from the final spin cycle, then they are hung up to finish drying.
|Post# 507778 , Reply# 69   3/28/2011 at 21:17 (4,640 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)  || |
i really like my 24"asko,it holds and effectivly drys a pretty big load for
it's small size-works really nice for my typical neptune and filter flo
loads,i usually run the 60min timed cycle or one of the sensed cycles for
smaller or light fabric loads.
Operating with an ambient temp of around 65*,this air cooled condensor
dryer seems quite effective-there is a squirrel cage blower on each end of
the 3300 rpm split-capacitor motor,one blower circulates drying air though
through the drum,heater and condenser along with a very fine-mesh lint filter
the other blower blows ambient air through the condenser.When the condensate
reservoir gets to a certain level a small pump starts and pumps out through
a tube of about 3/8".
My much slower and lower wattage splendide is a water cooled condenser;
a fan-forced heater circulates heated air through the drum while cold tap
water is trickled along the inner surface of the stainless steel outer tub
to condense away water as the drain pump cycles at timed intervals.
|Post# 507806 , Reply# 70   3/29/2011 at 00:33 (4,639 days old) by dj-gabriele ()  || |
No offense taken, at all, but I just want to clarify a thing.
We (as Europeans) are energy conscious even when it comes to dryer as they're rated for energy. ;) (even if it would be better not to use them at all!)
Actually new condenser dryers are more efficient than every vented dryer ever sold over here.
Virtually all the vented dryers are energy class C: that means a stated energy use of 0,67 kWh per kg of dried laundry. Older ones might be D class or even E.
All the new standard condenser dryers are on energy class B, that means a consumption of less than 0,64 kWh per kg of dried laundry because they "re-cycle" part of the heat they put out in the room.
Thus, the "condenser dryers run hotter and use almost 25% more electricity than vented dryers" statement is valid only when comparing old machines and surely not those made after the energy label came in wide use.
If you think at modern heat pump dryers (again, condensing machines) the energy use is between A-30% to A-50%, only 0,27-0,38 kWh per kg of dried clothes.
|Post# 507823 , Reply# 71   3/29/2011 at 03:53 (4,639 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)  || |
Improper use once again would lead to wrinkles, uneven drying and poor results in general.
Who cares about the max capacity declared by the manufacturer... if you load the dryer no more than half its visible drum size (never mind about the weight of the items in your load) I can assure you that you won't need to iron ever again. In my case my washer spins items continuously for 10 minutes... none of this faffing about for 2-3 minutes... then a little burst of spin and more faffing about! Yet my clothes look as if they've been ironed when I'm done with them: of course I don't expect that they did so by themselves... I indulge into running my hand over them once they've been folded!
Having said that there are still some obstinate items that would wrinkle no matter what... regardless of using the dryer... well, I'm thinking of a few pillow cases of mine made of 100% egyptian cotton and they punctually get creases. The get folded and put away without being ironed and by the time I need to use them again they'll be as flat as a pancake!
As I've never seen a gas dryer in my life, I was wondering whether these work in a similar fashion as a vented dryer... I would appreciate a confirmation from you folks. Thanks.
|Post# 507824 , Reply# 72   3/29/2011 at 04:24 (4,639 days old) by dj-gabriele ()  || |
The burner, started by a spark (older ones had a pilot flame) ignites every time that the temperature drops below a set threshold or on more sophisticated ones, the flame intensity is modulated and never stops burning.
The flame, heats the air along with its combustion gas and everything is pumped in the drying chamber via a fan that operates in suction like a standard vented dryer. I don't know if there are gas dryers that have heat exchangers so the combustion products don't enter in contact with the clothes!
After that the hot humid air is just evacuated outside.
|Post# 507833 , Reply# 73   3/29/2011 at 06:39 (4,639 days old) by solsburian (SE Northumberland)  || |
My aunt has (or had) a White Knight Gas Dryer and she loved it, I haven't seen her for a while but if she still has it it will probably be 15 years old now.
|Post# 507842 , Reply# 74   3/29/2011 at 07:36 (4,639 days old) by hydralique (Los Angeles)  || |
In use there is no difference between a gas dryer and a conventional electric dryer: you put the clothes in, set your cycle and it does the rest. On some models you might hear a small "whoosh" as the burner open up, same as a water heater or furnace, but generally this isn't as loud as the noise made by the drum and clothes falling about. Gas dryers usually dry a little faster and are cheaper to run than electrics, which is why many of us prefer them. The only disadvantage is that you have to have an appropriate gas line.
|Post# 507853 , Reply# 75   3/29/2011 at 08:51 (4,639 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
In USA 240 volt electric dryer plugs; older dryers had/have a 3 wire plug; newer dryers use a 4 wire plug.
A dryer like my 1976 Westinghouse has a 3 wire plug; two 120 Volt "hots" to Neutral
A newer dryer and new codes require an added green wire ground; this is the 4th wire on the plug.
In the USA a the meter and if the circuit panel is close; the neutral wire and ground are connected together. In many places there is a 10 foot long copper coated 1/2 inch diameter ground rod driven in the ground; right below the electric meter.
In the USA is the panel is away from the tie together of earth/ground and neutral; the panel has to have a separate Neutral and Ground bus bar in the circuit breaker box. Most boxes have this; but if the baox is right by the meter the two bus bars are connected together.
With a remote circuit breaker box; the neutral wire is often a volt or two away from ground since the two 120 volt legs are not always balanced in the amperage they are carrying that moment.
If the neutral wire from the transformer on the street is broken; lost; then the sum of the two hot legs still is 240 volts; but one might have 170 volts on one leg and 70 on another. This means the FRAME on some older 3 wire dryers that was tied to neutral *may* float way above ground and thus somebody could get shocked. Having a defined green wire ground tied to the copper ground rod reduces this.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK
|Post# 507859 , Reply# 76   3/29/2011 at 09:09 (4,639 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
In the USA heating say water in a water heater with natural gas costs here about 1/3 to 1/2 as much as using an electric version.
In dryers; a gas dryer too often costs 1/3 to 1/2 as much to run too, but one has often added water vapor released so in humid areas like here often it is more like 1/2. Here one has to factor in the cost of having a licensed gas plumber add the gas disconnect or one's house fire insurance is voided if your non licensed set up causes the fire. Some places charge more for fire insurance depending on the gas appliances. If one lives where one has little risks, insurance companies might not include risks and look at details as much. Here if my house is fully insured for wind, fire,floods, and liability the premium is about 8000 dollars per year. Thus many of us do not insure for everything; we cannot afford it.
Fore me with only washing about twice a week, buying a gas dryer has no rate of return. I have to factor in buying a gas dryer, paying big bucks for a licensed gas plumbers connection, added insurance costs. Pre Katrina, when a gas water heater in the attic died, I did a bypass on it and only now use one water heater and got that attic gas water heater off the insurance companys risk spreadsheet.
On another thread, another says insurance companies in the USA do not consider gas dryers to be an added risk. Here since full coverage is 154 dollars per week in insurance, they look at more items on their risk sheets.
|Post# 507892 , Reply# 77   3/29/2011 at 11:09 (4,639 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
Of coerce you can dry 2 or 3 pairs of jeans with reasonable success in a small dryer. But drying heavy jeans and towels in small batches is a waste of energy and time and wear and tear on the dryer itself. Drying heavy items is a little like baking cake layers in an oven, you can bake two layers in about 30 minutes. But you can bake 6 layers in say 35 minutes using almost no more energy than just baking two.
But I always dry loads of at least 6 jeans or sometimes more than 10 pair per load. Keep in mind that I even think that the 27" dryers that are becoming more popular here are too small for the best results, I will keep my 29 and 31" wide dryers thank you.
I would be willing to bet that the great majority of clothing dried in hotels, hospitals, restaurants etc etc in Europe is dried with gas dryers, they are just the most energy efficient way to dry clothes on any scale.
Heat-pump dryers show great promise and will give gas dryers a run for the money. My brother [ Jeff ] and I designed heat-pump dryers over 30 years ago, while I can't claim that we thought of it first we knew that it was a sound idea that would make sense.
|Post# 507893 , Reply# 78   3/29/2011 at 11:13 (4,639 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)  || |
Well I dry 6kg (13lbs) of towels, or bed linen, or jeans in my 24" dryer no problem.
I can also dry about 5lbs of the same loads in my compact dryer (half the size of a 24" machine)
Nothing is ever creased, if anything clothes dry much more evenly and less creased because our dryers reverse and won't ball sheets or anything up like a unidirectional dryer.
|Post# 507918 , Reply# 79   3/29/2011 at 13:14 (4,639 days old) by logixx (Germany)  || |
What I also have to say regarding vented vs. condenser: condenser dryers seem to dry much more evenly when doing mixed loads.
I didn't change sorting habits when using the big Speed Queen dryers at the laundry room of my UK dorm. That is to say, I threw jeans and T-Shirts in at the same time - just like I do at home. At the end of the 30 min. cycle, some items were dry while others were still moist. This doesn't happen with condenser dryers. Everything dries pretty much at the same pace, as the moisture level of the entire load is gradually reduced.
|Post# 507928 , Reply# 80   3/29/2011 at 13:58 (4,639 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
OK so does "condenser dryer" have the same meaning across the globe?
I ask because here it is not really a common term used here at all.
ie are there variants of "condenser dryer" designs so that dialog here might be murky?
What is a good block diagram of one? Is the condensed water dumped out, evaporated, drained in a tube down a drain?
****ie are their eco thrifty versions and horrible wastefull versions of them?
Here I am not so familar with them.
|Post# 507951 , Reply# 81   3/29/2011 at 15:59 (4,639 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
Here's a scheme of how an Asko condenser dryers work. All European condenser dryers work similar. The red flow is circulating air in the dryer. In the condenser the air gets cooled by the blue flow. The water that is condensed is pumped into a reservoir or can in most cases be pumped into a drain with a small hose (The hose of my Miele dryer fits together with the drain hose of the washer in one drain pipe).
|Post# 507969 , Reply# 82   3/29/2011 at 17:10 (4,639 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Again, cannot speak for the rest of the EU/UK, but at least in Paris and many other major urban areas of France the larger hotels, hospitals etc send their laundry out to commercial laundries. There one assumes you are correct in the use of large steam or gas heated vented driers versus condenser models. The volume of laundry is just too large IMHO for anything else.
There is along tradition going back ages for those living in French cities to send their wash either to the country (or out of it). This was originally done in aid of finding fresh water and air (both in short supply at that time).
I've stayed at some small hotels in Paris where they did their own laundry, but once you go to the medium or larger places, things can change.
As in the United States many businesses simply feel it is "cheaper" in the long run to outsource their laundry. Between labour,machine and supply costs, not to mention costs of staffing, it just makes sense.
|Post# 507971 , Reply# 83   3/29/2011 at 17:24 (4,639 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)  || |
|Post# 507987 , Reply# 84   3/29/2011 at 18:29 (4,639 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)  || |
several u.s. appliance manufacturers made condenser dryers around the 1950s,
both air and water cooled-i don't know many details so will start a thread
|Post# 508114 , Reply# 85   3/30/2011 at 04:26 (4,638 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)  || |
24' DRYERS ARE TOO SMALL TO DRY LARGE ITEMS
I'm guessing in that case then I have only imagined the perfect results I got this weekend when I dried a load of 6 pairs of jeans, a denim shirt and a denim jacket, or two big loads of towels in my little old AEG :-). (I would usually use the clothes horse - either on the landing or on the front terrace, but had a laundry marathon this weekend after being away so had no option but to use the dryer).
Only creasing I get is when I forget all about the washing in the dryer until 2 days or so later! Then, that's nothing that putting the dryer on the Easy Iron programme won't sort.
To answer the thread: I have a condenser dryer, but depending on time/space/amount of laundry I can get through I am less hesitant to use the dryer than I once was. A little bit more on the electric bill mind... One thing I miss about living in a flat is no washing line, when I was at the parents I had an ideal set up - the washer is next to the back door, and the line starts outside just next to the back door so you could literally hang stuff up right out of the washer without having to empty it all into a basket first.
|Post# 508117 , Reply# 86   3/30/2011 at 04:36 (4,638 days old) by mrx ()  || |
Just did a standard sized laundry hamper of towels in the Aqualtis and then into our Electrolux Inspire 7kg (15.4lbs) dryer.
The only problem that I ever have is if you leave the clothes in the dryer for too long. Ideally, you should just remove them at the end of the cycle when the buzzer sounds and there are no crinkling / creasing problems at all.
Also, using a fabric softener (not dryer sheets) always produces better results.
The towels were washed in Ariel and conditioned with Ecover - they smell really nice :)
|Post# 508123 , Reply# 87   3/30/2011 at 05:37 (4,638 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)  || |
I always leave my clothes in the dryer overnight (whether they've been on the line beforehand or not) as I'm usually sleeping when the drying cycle has completed... still no creases after a refresh programme. All tumble dryers have a 10 minute cold tumble at the end of any programme to cool down the garments and avoid the creation of wrinkles.
The only problem I've had with a full mixed load is that some of the thicker items might occasionally not be entirely dry as the rest of the load, so, when this happens, I allow an extra refresh cycle for them alone.
Some1 here suggested that this uneven drying scenario wouldn't occur in a condenser dryer (mine being vented)... well, if that's the case my next drying machine will have to be a condensing unit... however I feel that a vented dryer is easier on fabrics as it doesn't bake them as much ;-)
|Post# 508143 , Reply# 88   3/30/2011 at 07:29 (4,638 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
I never said you couldn't get saterfactory results out of a 24" dryer, but if you sit them SxS the difference is dramatic in the way the clothes emerge and even more so if you leave them sit in the dryer overnite. I would bet that they don't use 24" condensing dryers in commerical laundries in Europe. Bigger is always going to be better in a dryer drums size.
I also would like to see some test data that shows that condenser dryers use less electricity than vented machines. It used to be the other way around and it would be interesting to know what breakthrough allowed them to become more efficient. Since the very beginnings of clothes dryers very little has been done to improve efficiency the science was pretty much the same for all dryers. The heat-pump dryer may be the one big exception.
|Post# 508147 , Reply# 89   3/30/2011 at 07:45 (4,638 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
|Post# 508150 , Reply# 90   3/30/2011 at 08:11 (4,638 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)  || |
When I lived in student accommodation a few years ago, the commercial Maytag Neptune gas dryers were a lot harsher on clothes and left stuff more creased than any of our domestic dryers ever had.
Why, I do not know, but that's how it was.
I've never used massive commercial dryers to dry anything other than duvets, so I can't comment how laundry comes out of those.
|Post# 508160 , Reply# 91   3/30/2011 at 08:36 (4,638 days old) by hoover1100 (U.K.)  || |
And American style dryers I've used get far hotter than even our condenser dryer's highest heat setting.
As a result of this, I find they tend to bake creases in a lot more, and seem to do a much shorter (around 2min) cooldown which is completely inadequate.
Because they don't reverse, items like sheets tangle and ball up much more, which results in damp, particularly creased patches which have been stuck scrunched up in a ball. Same is true for any dryer which doesn't reverse. I find this with my Carlton compact dryer.
At the end of the day, the main reasons clothes will crease in the dryer is over drying, being left in the dryer too long, too much heat and of course, overloading.
If your used to an American size/style dryer, using a different type will take some adjusting to.
I guess the same is true from my position, having found less than desirable results out of American size/style machines.
Same is probably true for the "what is better, vented or condenser?" argument.
It all boils down to what you know and what you are used to, changing to a different method requires a learning curve to get it right.
This post was last edited 03/30/2011 at 09:08
|Post# 508165 , Reply# 92   3/30/2011 at 08:54 (4,638 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)  || |
Is the only reality with the "results and uber size dryer comments", whyever would you not get perfect results (satisfactory or otherwise) out of a tumble dryer manufactured in Europe??
Vented is the best option over condenser (IMHO), many manufacturers are introducing back TOL vented models after years of complaints about condensers, which may I add is usually due to the condensers not being maintained & regulary cleaned...
As to Heat Pump - the jurys out...they require even more of a thought process - here in UK we are used to spinning everything fast (Max Extract) and then popping spun clothing into a dryer where the moisture is low and the heat flow drops any creases due to spinning - that way you get great results and fast economical drying times.
Having used a few heat pump dryers I have been dissapointed with the results, because there is hardly any heat in the dryer they dont drop creases etc, (they basically suck the moisture out of the air flow and clothes tumble in cooler air) in fact the cycles work in reverse of the traditional dryers, residual heat builds up as the cycle progresses. So you lose the steamy airflow out of a condenser and lose the heated drum surface which acts like an iron out of the vented dryers!!
The trick then is to have more moisture in the clothes and to avoid excess creasing, you will still save on energy in a heat pump but not on time!!!
heres another condenser dryer diagram, appliance front is RHS
|Post# 508174 , Reply# 93   3/30/2011 at 10:24 (4,638 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
Matt; the old 1976 Westy dryer here has a long cool down cycle in the automatic setting. The heater is off for about something like 5 to 10 minutes and the dryer keeps on spinning and thus the temp drops as the heat is exhausted. If one has something that is really heat sensistive, the lower 1/4 power 120 volt "low setting" with a timed dry really slowly drys stuff, since the input power is only 1300 to 1400 watts, instead of 5400 watts.
|Post# 508201 , Reply# 94   3/30/2011 at 14:14 (4,638 days old) by mielabor ()  || |
Well Louis, your link points to a site where they sell Maytag gas dryers. That's an unusual brand name in the Netherlands...
|Post# 508202 , Reply# 95   3/30/2011 at 14:18 (4,638 days old) by mielabor ()  || |
These are the specifications:
CLICK HERE TO GO TO mielabor's LINK
|Post# 508207 , Reply# 96   3/30/2011 at 14:26 (4,638 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
They changed the website after I posted the link. Yes, there was an American gas dryer in that link, but it was a Huebsch dryer with top mounted controls. Huebsch is not only sold in North America, but also in Europe.
I noticed there are two other models as well, a Maytag one and a more European looking model named Hamstra.
|Post# 508212 , Reply# 97   3/30/2011 at 14:54 (4,638 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
What is the typical wattage of non us condensor dryers?
|Post# 508213 , Reply# 98   3/30/2011 at 14:57 (4,638 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
Is the wattage such that one needs a higher current socket; or is it low enough that it is the same 230 volt plug/socket that all ones other stuff uses?
|Post# 508215 , Reply# 99   3/30/2011 at 15:03 (4,638 days old) by logixx (Germany)  || |
|Post# 508217 , Reply# 100   3/30/2011 at 15:23 (4,638 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)  || |
Heres the spec for the V-Zug Heat Pump Dryer @6kg load, impressive for the energy usage!!!
OMG I`ve just realised the sticker is still on...Lol it will be vintage like the stuff we find with the stickers on...is that chavvy in shavvy or good thinking!!!
Voltage: 230 volt
Connected loads:1.5 kilowatt
Fuse protection:10 amps
Better than energy: class:A-30%
Energy consumption: 1.94 kWh
|Post# 508254 , Reply# 101   3/30/2011 at 19:35 (4,638 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
|Post# 508265 , Reply# 102   3/30/2011 at 20:05 (4,638 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Oh I don't know.
My Pfaff rotary ironer (made in Germany) pulls 2.05kW for the heater, 1kW for the steam boiler, and about 95w for the motor.
OTHO my vintage Frigidaire ironer pulls about 1570 watts with a roller size just several inches shorter than the Pfaff.
Is there a difference in performance?
What I have noticed is that the Euro ironer not only heats up faster (comes to max temp in <8min), maintains heat and in general is able to run hotter than the Frigidare. Even over damp linens will be dry in about one pass with the Pfaff, whilst the Frigidare may take two.
Methinks therefore the rationale for pulling so much power is that higher heat is not only reached faster, but less juice is required to keep it there. This probably leads to less energy use for a dryer as the load is finished quicker.
|Post# 508267 , Reply# 103   3/30/2011 at 20:11 (4,638 days old) by favorit ()  || |
almost 2 KWh per load in a dryer is a extremly low consumption rate.
Go figure the most energy efficent same sized **non-heat pump** condenser dryers draw round 4 KWh (then literally twice)
Compare specifications of this regular condenser Miele T 8822 C (3,9 Kwh)
and its heat pump twin T 8826 WP (2,0 Kwh)
Same applies to whatever other brand
|Post# 508268 , Reply# 104   3/30/2011 at 20:18 (4,638 days old) by favorit ()  || |
M.me Lavandeuse, ne melanger pas les pommes avec les oranges *LOL*
We are talking about energy consuumption, not power/wattage of appliances
More powerful coils/heters do not mean higher energy consumption
|Post# 508274 , Reply# 105   3/30/2011 at 20:54 (4,638 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)  || |
i have thought about hooking a watt-hour meter to my 3 dryers and running
my usuall loads and cycles to see what they use-kinda hard to do a
dryer vs dryer test because there are so many varibles that could affect the
results of such a test,the splendide by far uses the least power when running
but it also by far takes the longest to dry though once up to temp the
heater cycles on and off as needed to maintain the temperature in the drum.
The asko's condensing action is affected some by the temperature of the
ambient air blown through the condenser.
|Post# 508304 , Reply# 106   3/31/2011 at 00:06 (4,637 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
I just did a load in my Miele condenser dryer, laundry was spun at 1400rpm. It was an almost full drum in the Miele washer. It took exactly an hour till it hit the cool down. The total Wattage the dryer can take is 2880 Watts, including the motor, but ofcourse the element isn't continuously heating. I have no loose powermeter, so I can't measure.
Mike, did you measure the power usage with a meter? 1.94kWh sounds a bit much for a heat pump dryer.
|Post# 508310 , Reply# 107   3/31/2011 at 01:59 (4,637 days old) by dj-gabriele ()  || |
Why is that?
1940 Wh / 6kg = 323Wh/kg that's half than a B class standard condenser dryer!
Also the first heat pump dryer from Electrolux, for the same 6 kg load used 2,4 kWh!
Still a lot less than a standard dryer!
I understand that there are more economic machines like the Bosch/Siemen dryer and the Hotpoint Aqualtis ones but still it's a 50% saving!
|Post# 508316 , Reply# 108   3/31/2011 at 05:10 (4,637 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)  || |
This is the official TEST figures for a 6kg Cotton Load, havnt popped a test meter on it yet, I did the same load of towels myself spun at 1600rpm, placed them in the Maytag condenser dryer and it took 20mins more...(1hr 20)
I think like anything else the technology will improve considerably as time moves on!!
Anyone else used a Heat Pump Euro Dryer yet??
|Post# 508331 , Reply# 109   3/31/2011 at 07:45 (4,637 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
Thanks for all the good input on this topic. I have always been very interested in the cost of power [ electricity, gas natural and propane, heating oil and the cost of water etc. ] I am always amazed that most people have no idea what these necessities of life cost but they could tell you what they paid for a gallon of gasoline or even a gallon of milk.
For years I have kept two kilowatt meters hooked up in my shop and I love to monitor the cost of drying a load of clothing in different dryers and different loads spun out in different washers. I have also calculated the cost of running lots of different refrigerators, the cost of running the self-cleaning cycle on a lot of different US electric ranges, even the cost of running my hot tub month after month.
But back to heat-pump dryers, I did expect to see a lower total power consumption per load than almost two KWs of power used. For example when I run 29" WP built dryer with a 5600 watt heater it will dry a 10 lb + load in just over an hour using a total of about 5 KWs of power and this load is being spun in a WP DD washer spinning at 640 RPMs for just 6 minutes. If I put this same size and condition load in my 1962 Frigidare custom Imperial air-cooled condensing dryer it will take an hour and 20-30 minutes and use over 6 1/2 KWs of total power. The dryer has a 4400 watt heater.
I would love to get my hands on a heat-pump dryer to do some testing on but haven't seen any in this country yet [ if some one here sees one let me know ]. As I said in an earlier post my brother and I designed one on paper many years ago we are still talking about building one. And I think they will seem like gift from the gods for people with venting problems or without natural gas but it doesn't seem when you consider the complexity and cost of the machine or the cost of operation that they will knock gas dryers off as the most environmentally friendly way to automatically dry clothing any time soon.
|Post# 508365 , Reply# 110   3/31/2011 at 12:16 (4,637 days old) by limey ()  || |
A’ kilowatt’ (Kw) is the instantaneous power being used, a ‘kilowatt hour’ (Kwh) is an average of one kilowatt being used for one hour. Your electric meters measure Kwh.
|Post# 508371 , Reply# 111   3/31/2011 at 12:34 (4,637 days old) by mrx ()  || |
I have a plug-in kWh meter and I will be doing a load of towels later on.
I will wash it in the Bosch Logixx 8kg (17.6lbs) machine at 60ºC (140ºF) and spin at 1600rpm
Then dry in a Miele dryer.
I'll give you details of kWh used for each stage.
|Post# 508395 , Reply# 112   3/31/2011 at 14:09 (4,637 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
Here I have a couple dozen of the house/business regular glass covered watt hour meters. I have picked them up at the TRW ham radio swap meets in California, and may from Ebay too. In my business and home I have used these in line with AC units and devices to explore where the "money is going". In California I wired one to measure my apartments 230 volt 15 ton AC unit; and had one too for my apartments electric heater which was a horrible costly 11 Kw! I also had one on my fridge too! Today one can buy the simple kill a watt meter for simple 120 volt loads. For 240 V I just use a meter box and have the meter in the middle of a giant male female extension cord sized for the load.
Here for my 1976 westy electric dryer the heater is 5400 watts, but the unit cycles on and off and goes through a cool down cycle. With a modern FL washer with a high extract rpm; the dryer has way less to dry. The dryer might only have to run 20 to 30 minutes tops and if 30 minutes the KWHR is NOT 2.7KWHR; more like 0.8 to 1.5 ish. Ie a dryer load costs me often 13 to 25 cents; but often that is not much items.
If I packed the dryer with wet unspun hand washed bluejeans on a rainy day; the darn thing might run one hour at the full 5400 watts at 16 cents per KWHR and thus I spent 86 cents, maybe 1 buck to full dry a dozen hand washed unspun pairs of jeans. The same jeans if placed on a clothes line on a sunny day would have a zero dry cost. A hybrid approach is to hang the handwashed stuff over the tub and then place them in the dryer hours later and one saves 50 cents!
With a dryer like mine the element stays fully on until the air temp reaches about 145 to 155 F; then it cycles one and off for a decent time, then the heater is off in the cool down cycle.
If one drys a lot of items with a vented dryttiems
|Post# 508419 , Reply# 113   3/31/2011 at 16:01 (4,637 days old) by gorenje (Slovenia)  || |
Here in Slovenia based on the last statistic 30% of the households own a dryer. (or a combo) Condenser dryers are the most common and the most available in the stores. I think very few households have a vented dryer.
14% of those who own a dryer use it also during the summer time (or when the weather is fine)
In my Country the winters can be quite cold and in the Capital city the weather during the winter time is in some period quite foggy so a dryer realy isn't a strange thing to be seen.
I live in a region wher we have quite enough windy weather so we can also dry outside.
For me using the dryer is part of the washing process. I use it all the times. (I am part of that 14%) I rarely dry outside mainly because what comes from the dryer don't need to be iron. Here in Slovenia the electricity is quite cheap and we all have 6 KW of power.
|Post# 508437 , Reply# 114   3/31/2011 at 17:43 (4,637 days old) by mrx ()  || |
Load : 13 medium sized towels and 4 face cloths.
Wash : 60ºC cotton
Detergent : Ariel Bio Powder
Softener : Ecover
Options: Extra water
Power consumed: 1.2kWh
Dryer - Miele Vented sensor dryer (around 10 years old)
Set to Normal+ on a miele dryer. Loaded pretty heavily (over-loaded technically but it works fine0
Dry time : 67 mins
Power used : 4.42kWh.
Don't really know if that's good / bad / middling.
|Post# 508450 , Reply# 115   3/31/2011 at 18:34 (4,637 days old) by Samsungfl (United Kingdom/London )  || |
Nice to see a thread like this on here! Following on the above posts its suprising to see the variation of electricity different dryers use. The new Heat Pump technology really does seem impressive in terms of electricity savings!
The dryer I have, the Bendix 7442 is quite impressive I find, its maximum power consumption is only 2.3KW, which seems rather low to me as some other dryers seem to vary from this, all the way up to 3000w.
However where dryers are concerned I do think powerfull airflow is key, and goes to saving electricity also. On my dryer I mostly use the Half Heat option which dries most loads within 40-60 minutes which I find more than acceptable, high heat is only used if I'm in a rush. Would also be interesting to find out how many watts the machine is drawing using the half heat option, I'm lead to believe it would be roughly 200-400w less than the full heat option, but thats purely speculation :-)
Drying using slightly less heat also helps with creasing I find, ever since I've had this dryer I've never had clothes so crease free out of a tumble dryer, same goes for towels - fluffy everytime whilst retaining the scent of the detergent they where washed in.
With my previous White Knight dryer I found that High heat would literally render
off the majority of the scent and also cause creasing and patchy drying, though I do believe these rely more on harsh heat than the airflow.
I do also have some experience using large capacity dryers at my local launderette (Gas fed, produced by ADC - American Dryer Corp.) I find these to be VERY fast however the heat thats used is far too much, when I used these most laundry would have literally no scent left at all and also be slightly rough to the touch due to the very high temperatures, but back then it was either that or wait for my compact White Knight dryer to work its way through multiple loads from my 6kilo Miele, and bear in mind each load in the dryer would be half the washers capacity, and take anywhere between 60-80 minutes to dry, which would in turn over-work the dryer and take an age to get laundry washed and dried.
Keep posting guys, always nice to hear a mix of opinions on here :-)
|Post# 508452 , Reply# 116   3/31/2011 at 18:38 (4,637 days old) by mrx ()  || |
Better dryers, like Miele's machines, seem to use a LOT more air than other designs. You can really notice how much air's coming out of the vent hose on ours compared to other types of vented dryers.
It seems to be how they achieve such good results i.e. more air, less heat.
|Post# 508462 , Reply# 117   3/31/2011 at 19:25 (4,637 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
one therm equals 100 cubic feet (1 CCF).
Here I only wash about 2.5 loads a week.
In the gas versus electric dryer cost calculator in the link, I used 3 loads per week and the local current gas and electric rates.
The electric rate is the new schedule staring April 1 2011, it had a bigger fixed charge for the Katrina rebuild cost.
With the new LG FL washer the time to use the dryer is often 15 to 30 minutes, 30 is rather rare, more like for many bluejeans.
The dryer here is 5400 watts , but with small loads is cycling on and off. There model is in the ballpark for what I have actually measured. *IF* I send the 1976 electric dryer to the crusher, and get a free gas dryer and free licensed plumber, my savings will buy a 6 pack of decent beer a year. This assumes the insurance co is no disturbed by a gas dryer too.
With a giant family, old washer with low spin speed, a gas dryer pays off real quickly. For me the savings are nothing to get exited about. Thus I am getting a new 18 cuft refrigerator that draws only 335 KWHR per year, the old one from 1990 that died recently drawed about 1200 KWHR.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO 3beltwesty's LINK
|Post# 508465 , Reply# 118   3/31/2011 at 19:40 (4,637 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
If I ran my home dryer at my business, my "demand meter" would jump by 5.4 KW if the heater was on for about 10 to 15 minutes straight. Thus if my demand during no ac winters is low say 7KW. the added wattage places me into a 12 KW higher rate schedule. In the the many AC's run; running a dryer too might make the total demand be 20 KW demand schedule.
with a demand meter, it measured total KWHR and also the PEAK demand KW over a 15 minute period over the monthly cycle. One gets billed at least with a 5 KW demand, and above this uses a weird of "200 hours times the demand" ie 200 * 5KW is 1000 KWHR.
With a demand meter; if I used 1000 KWHR in one month in my business and the peak demand is only 5KW, my rate is low.
If my demand is 10KW, I pay more per KWHR for that 1000KWHR
If my demand is 20KW, I pay even more per KWHR for that 1000KWHR
The power co wants non peaky loads.
|Post# 508471 , Reply# 119   3/31/2011 at 20:19 (4,637 days old) by mrx ()  || |
We measure both gas and electricity in kWh on your bill to allow easier comparison.
The gas meter measures in cubic metres.
My energy prices: (including taxes) in Euro cents.
Electricity per kWh: 17.9cents (25.25US cents) (day) / 8.46 cents (11.93 US cents) (night)
Gas per kWh: 4.46 cents (6.33 US cents) (single rate)
|Post# 508514 , Reply# 120   4/1/2011 at 05:27 (4,636 days old) by SuperElectronic (London, UK)  || |
MrX...what is the wattage of your dryer? If it's around the normal 3kw then there's surely no way it can chew through 4.42kwh in 67 minutes. Or are you quoting combined washing and drying consumption of electricity?
I'm a line-drying boy even in winter. I'd be lost without my outdoor space! The dryer comes a poor second for most things, mostly because of the lack of true freshness. And I hate dryers that run hot and just make things smell slightly scorched for want of a better description. Launderette dryers are the worst offenders!
Gas in a tumble dryer just sounds like a recipe for a blazing inferno to me but then maybe that's just what I'm used to - obviusly many, many people get by quite safely!
Drying clothes on racks indoors is my very least favourite method - depressingly damp atmosphere, gets in the way and absorbs any smell of cooking etc...I end up wondering why on earth I bothered washing the stuff in the first place.
In conclusion, it's all about the freshness for me!
|Post# 508534 , Reply# 121   4/1/2011 at 07:49 (4,636 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
Thanks for the energy costs of electric and gas in your area mrx as you can see you can dry almost three loads with gas for the cost of drying one with electricity, this is about the same as most of the US. Gas dryers are the only gas appliance that are as efficient as there electric counterpart because there is no heat-exchanger and all of the heat from the burning gas travels through the load of tumbling clothes. Gas water heaters typically waste about 30% of the heat, gas furnaces usually waste 10-20% of the heat and gas ranges are by far the worst wasting over 50% of the heat produced. This is why there is little if any cost advantage in cooking on gas and in fact in areas of the US where electricity is cheap it can be cheaper to cook on electricity. And if you only have propane which is usually twice the cost of natural gas and electric range almost always wins.
Alex the solution for drying clothes in a dryer and having them come out with a fresh-air smell is to move your dryer outside. At least 10 years ago I installed a 1978 WP Imperial Mark 12 gas dryer out on my screened porch and it never fails to amaze me how fresh smelling the clothing comes out of the dryer, with no yucky fabric softener sheets etc. When a vented dryer is installed inside a building any background odor in the air will often smell different and worst in the clothes coming out of the dryer. These odors can come from cooking, smoking, musty basements and many cleaning products let alone floor waxes or painting or new carpeting.
|Post# 508546 , Reply# 122   4/1/2011 at 09:33 (4,636 days old) by 3beltwesty ()  || |
Here I actually prefer cooking with gas for somethings were one has a thin pan and one wants to have an instant control of the heat. ie I like a gas burner for more exotic cooking.
Down in the south folks too use an outside gas burner to cook gumbo or boil crabs outside in giant pot on a stand. ie we do not want to heat the house in the hot summer!
Here in the USA if one does a lot of clothes washing then a gas dryer will save one money quickly. If one does not wash as much, the savings breakeven has a longer timeframe. With a modern FL washer with a high extract speed, the breakeven gets pushed out farther.
Most commercial "self serve coin" laundromats I have visted here use natural gas.
|Post# 508625 , Reply# 123   4/1/2011 at 15:41 (4,636 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)  || |
From a cost perspective, an hour in the dryer is about 40cents....thats with a total power draw of 2250watts and electricity at around 15c a kilowatt hr...
Not exactly expensive...and given we have a 2.5kw solar generating system that we feed back into the grid at 44.5cents per kwh, I'm not losing any sleep over it either...
|Post# 508695 , Reply# 124   4/2/2011 at 05:49 (4,635 days old) by matthewza (Cape Town, South Africa)  || |
here in SA it depends on the person. the richer people tumble dry everything. the middle people tumble dry ehen needed and the poor people line dry. we fall inbetween rich and middle. we line dry most of stuff when weather allows. underwear, and thin creasables get tumble dried so that they dont need ironing. we dont iron anything though. wash, hang up/tumble dry, pack away. i dont like tumble drying towels as they get like a pull to them amd also the sun kills wahtever didnt die in the wash. same with bedding. prefer to line dry but i tumble dry the pillow cases. i like the smell of fresh line dried washing. i hang my towels out but they go hard so when dry i put the in my dryer on air dry for 10 mins and that cold air (and dryer ball) fluffs them up and softens. we have a 2009/2010 whirlpool heavy duty dryer and because the loads arent always big i use it on low heat. the low heat setting on the whirlpool is about the same as the high on my old KIC (sensordry dual heat. mod CT 511). even on low heat it takes between 40 and 60 mins to dry an average load. our samsung 13kg top loader spins at 720 rpm so not bad timing i think. if i tumble dry a full load from the washer i normally st it on 70 min low heat
|Post# 508696 , Reply# 125   4/2/2011 at 05:56 (4,635 days old) by matthewza (Cape Town, South Africa)  || |
the KIC was 2.7 kw on high heat and the whirlpool which is bout 3 or 4 times bigger is only either 3.0 or 3.5 kw so not bad at all. that is on high heat but as i said i use low heat most of the time. whirlpool is a 3SWED5205SQ0 SERIAL MU5104375
|Post# 508789 , Reply# 126   4/2/2011 at 15:22 (4,635 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)  || |
"Somebody please post a picture of an american standard modern dryer plug and outlet.
Thomas, sadly you are wrong in the case of the electric dryer (the gas dryer outlet is a regular grounded outlet, like you describe). I don't have a picture handy right now, but a twist-lock outlet/plug would be safer and easier to use. We have a regular outlet, just large and 30A; the new building codes require 4-prong for new construction, but for decades they had been just 3-prong plugs, two hots, one neutral, no ground. I've used dryers that had good plugs and it makes it hard to see how unsafe it can be. But one of my dryers right now has a plug with soft molded plastic, that feels like the prongs will fall off at any moment because of the force you need to use to disconnect it. The other dryer has a more rigid body (probably bakelite) but there is no flange to make it easier to grab, and it's also very hard to pull from the outlet -- that plug made me realize that if one is not really careful, one can actually touch both live prongs while trying to disconnect it. Hasn't happened yet to me, but I usually pay attention to things like that.
It's very easy to dismiss such things by saying "oh, people should just be careful" or "they are dumb if they get hurt". But a couple of days ago I was talking to a friend in a public place, she had plugged in her cell phone to recharge. We were about to leave, so she reached and unplugged the charger from the wall receptacle. While she was doing so, the receptacle cover, made out of metal, fell off the outlet right on top of the two prongs of her charger and shorted it. There was a loud bang, the breaker worked, but the charger is now ruined, the prongs were pretty badly mangled. We're grateful no one got hurt, but that was just a 120V/15A circuit. It could have been much worse if it was an outlet for a stove or a dryer. One of the reasons I don't support using metal covers for outlets. Also why I think the ground prong should be on top of the outlet (they are usually mounted so they look like a smiley face instead, not that that would make it much safer, just a bit safer). And the reason why I think the Schuko plug is better, it's recessed.
|Post# 508813 , Reply# 127   4/2/2011 at 16:26 (4,635 days old) by logixx (Germany)  || |
FWIW, I have a cleaning video of our dryer on my channel:
CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK