Thread Number: 37582
First, some info about changes in washing machines |
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Post# 558868   11/23/2011 at 22:47 (4,398 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 558884 , Reply# 1   11/23/2011 at 23:58 (4,398 days old) by qualin (Canada)   |   | |
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OK? All I see is a Youtube video of a 2007 Maytag machine washing? |
Post# 559018 , Reply# 2   11/24/2011 at 22:22 (4,397 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 559034 , Reply# 3   11/25/2011 at 01:54 (4,397 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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I have a 20gal/load frontloader from 1998. It works perfectly, considering the restrictions goobermint has placed on detergent. At least it uses water well enough to remove the detergent, with 5 rinses.
You just can't duplicate that with a toploader, with which Americans seem ignorantly obsessed. Take the water out of a TL and you get low performance, fabric damage, and detergent residue. But again the goobermint is closing in on full-performance toploaders, just like they did with low-flow toilets that take 3 flushes to get rid of a mookeystink. I'm not a rightwinger. I'm not a 'winger' at all, because they are both unsustainably corrupt. These are all actions of a bureaucracy of stupidity, throwing out regulations with the primary goal always the sustenance of the bureaucracy. If they ever SOLVED a problem, the need for the bureaucracy would evaporate and that's the last thing in the world they will allow to happen. |
Post# 559199 , Reply# 8   11/25/2011 at 16:06 (4,397 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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Post# 559204 , Reply# 9   11/25/2011 at 17:23 (4,397 days old) by gansky1 ![]() |
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![]() From the article:
"So there you have it. Politicians, environmentalists, and meddlesome bureaucrats have teamed up to dream up another attempt to serve the public interest. Left to its own the invisible hand of entrepreneurial competition would have naturally made doing laundry easier, better, cheaper, and more efficient. Instead we have more expensive, more inefficient, and truly ineffective clothes-washing machines."
The author cites statistics from (presumably) Consumer Reports from way back in 2007, despite having published this article just last May. CR has consistently given excellent scores to many HE washing machines and have even called a few HE washers "the best cleaning washers they have ever tested" since 2007. Ignoring facts and lazy research abound in this obvious attempt at making the "goobermint" to blame for everyone slogging around in dirty clothes. Not only does this not jive with testing agency ratings, but were that truly the case, the public outcry and rates of returned washers would be overwhelming. Neither are the case. The author, in an effort to crank out agitating schlock to affect his (or the "Institute's") political agenda also completely ignores the facts that led to more stringent resource consumption requirements for household (and commercial) appliances. Initially, it was the manufacturers that helped to set the reduction goals which were far exceeded long before laws mandating the same went into effect. The numbers were not pulled out of thin air, it was cooperation between government and manufacturers that brought us to where we are now. Subsequently, in a "race to the bottom" we witnessed firsthand the washing machine makers undercutting one another in water usage which has a direct correlation to energy bills and consumer's pockets. Not a difficult sale to make when you tell consumers, largely ignorant of the consumption levels of then current technology, that they could see utility savings in large numbers. "I'll take it!" We're now seeing the same thing with dishwashers, claims of a machine's ability to scrub a huge load of dishes clean in less than four gallons of water with the latest in (hobbled) detergent technology.
While not attempting to defend the decisions and laws enacted thus far concerning energy and water usage ratings of washing machines, the fear mongering of the author is blatantly apparent. Making people distrust, and even hate their government is the obvious goal, completely ignorant of the truth that we, the people, elect and maintain our government as we see fit. If you are unhappy with the energy standards or the manner in which your toilet flushes, there are many avenues for citizens of a democratic republic to address their grievances. Write your members of congress; city, state and federal representatives really do read their mail and with enough of an outcry, will alter their positions in order to keep their jobs given to them as a privilege by the people for whom they work. Not happy with the "goobermint"? Go vote. It's about time more citizens take the responsibility upon themselves for our country, for too long we've had a government elected by a minority of it's citizens. The 2010 election is a perfect example. Numbers of those eligible to vote that turned up at the polls was pathetic. A congress of the U.S. with a 9% approval rating? We have nobody to blame but ourselves. Bought a product you're not happy with? Complain, return the product and demand more and better from manufacturers. They also are in business to keep staying in business and adjust their engineering and development to meet the demands of consumers.
Just what exactly is the point of this article then? A quick tour of the topics and their authors, even the founding principals would raise an eyebrow in skepticism of even the most enamored "libertarian".
Nice.
I love my Speed Queen front load washer. I've never fiddled with the water level and get great results every time. Before this, I had a 2004 Duet washer that I also liked. Never once did I feel that my clothes were not clean. I may be a bit more fastidious in my laundry habits than the average consumer (aren't we all? we're here after all) but if I didn't think I was getting clean laundry, I would not have kept the Duet washer, let alone replace it with another front loader. ![]() |
Post# 559827 , Reply# 10   11/28/2011 at 00:51 (4,394 days old) by sudsmaster ![]() |
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Oh, not another distorted article from the von Mises groupie crowd.
First we had the one claiming that the TSP you can get in hardware stores is what you want to add to modern laundry detergents (instead of the real thing, which is STPP). The author didn't do his homework on that one, and I very much doubt he ever actually added TSP to his laundry as he claimed. Now we have him claiming that Consumer Reports rates HE washers as mediocre at best. Well, I've been a CR subscriber for decades and have noticed that HE washers have often been rated very good to excellent in washing efficiency - even some HE top loaders like the Maytag Bravos or its corporate badge-mate, the Whirlpool Cabrio. One must also take some of CR's results with a grain of salt. Their test articles appear to be one foot square swatches of fabric. Sort of like wash cloths. Well, how many of us wear wash cloths to work? What might work well on a square foot of fabric won't necessarily work the same on a set of king size sheets, a comforter, or even a pair of slacks or a a shirt. But I digress. I heard enough of the von Mises claptrap over on a debate forum a few years back to know that these people generally have a screw loose (or a bunch of loose change in the dryer drum). They appear to live in some idealized world where only their pet economic and social theories are valid. I'm a bit annoyed that they are now intruding into laundry matters in order to beat their tin drums. End of rant ;-) |
Post# 559876 , Reply# 11   11/28/2011 at 07:39 (4,394 days old) by JETCONE ![]() |
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![]() interesting article. But I do agree there is no sense in restricting water usage in the rinse cycle. Water is a renewable resource when we stay under 7 billion people!
CLICK HERE TO GO TO JETCONE's LINK |
Post# 559909 , Reply# 14   11/28/2011 at 11:42 (4,394 days old) by Tomturbomatic ![]() |
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Hunter, You could use duvet covers which would cut down on the amount of laundering of the comforter itself. Since the duvet covers are essentially the size of the corresponing sheets, they would fit in a regular washer. |
Post# 559918 , Reply# 15   11/28/2011 at 12:11 (4,394 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)   |   | |
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I do indeed do that, but wash the comforters every 3rd week or so... I was using this as an example just to illustrate the frustration ! |
Post# 559922 , Reply# 16   11/28/2011 at 12:46 (4,394 days old) by wringingwet (Walterboro South Carolina)   |   | |
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This is why I love my asko washer that has a high temp of 205. Yes it may take longer more time for me to watch the tumble ... I also have an Asko dishwasher and it is amazing what the machine will clean with 4.5 gallons of water ... also hi temp for germs ...
I do believe that having high temp machine is what kept my husband and I healthy for 15 years with HIV ... I would not have anything else. Yes I know Asko is crap for service but where I live anything is almost crap for service. Philippe |
Post# 559926 , Reply# 17   11/28/2011 at 12:49 (4,394 days old) by JETCONE ![]() |
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Post# 559928 , Reply# 18   11/28/2011 at 12:51 (4,394 days old) by JETCONE ![]() |
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Post# 559961 , Reply# 20   11/28/2011 at 14:59 (4,394 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)   |   | |
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Perhaps I should have said Everything made for the US consumer market seems like a POS! |
Post# 560056 , Reply# 21   11/28/2011 at 21:49 (4,393 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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![]() Being in Oz, getting hold of American appliances is difficult...but I have no desire what so ever to replace my Euro machine with anything else but another one....
On the topic of laundering comforters - why every 3 weeks or so if you're using a cover? By all means, wash as you see fit, but I'd suggest this is not required. Just air them for a few hours over the line or in the dryer on 'no heat' for 1/2 hour.....our duvets only see water annually, yet are aired monthly with covers changed at the same time but, I should point out, that we use a bottom AND top sheet. |
Post# 560338 , Reply# 25   11/30/2011 at 06:12 (4,392 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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Post# 560544 , Reply# 27   12/1/2011 at 03:46 (4,391 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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![]() I'm not quite sure what you mean....
A front loader IS A horizontal axis (H/A) machine.
A top-loading H/A machine could be what you mean and there are a few differences between a Front-load H/A machine and a Top-load machine with the same wash action, that is a tumbling action rather than an agitator one.....
- Front-load has bearings at the rear of the drum only - Top-load H/A may have bearings either side of the drum - Front-load has a porthole door with a rubber boot (most cases) or door seals against outer drum (ASKO) - Top-load H/A has access via the top. This is normally via 2 doors - outer which may contain the detergent dispenser and inner, which is the actual wash-drum of the machine. A rubber seal exists here too. - The vast majority of Front loaders sold globally are 60cm wide, with Nth American machines (and some Korean and one European one being a tad wider - Samsung/LG/Whirlpool) - Top-load H/A machines are normally between 40-45cm wide depending on brand and capacity (Staber excepted). - Front-load machines can be accessed as soon as the door unlocks - Top-load H/A machines may require the user to manually move the drum to access the inner door (though many also return the drum with the access door facing up)
Given that it sounds as if there is a very limited (Staber only?) supply of Top-load H/A machines sold in either Canada or North America, how on earth can you say:
'...but I know it'll be more reliable'?
I would suggest, though can't prove it, that there would be very little difference in overall reliability between Front-load and Top-load H/A machines made by the same manufacturer particularly given that electronics, motors and other mechanisims, including bearings, are likely to be the same specification for a given price-point.
To conclude, these machines are not popular here and I doubt that any are currently listed for sale. They are, however, popular in parts of Europe, particularly France.
Over to you, my European colleagues! |
Post# 560546 , Reply# 28   12/1/2011 at 05:57 (4,391 days old) by foraloysius ![]() |
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Post# 560548 , Reply# 29   12/1/2011 at 06:10 (4,391 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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![]() Louis,
I had thought so too until I re-read the sentence 4 times before posting.....The previous sentence informs the intent of the second:
'I can't see the clothes tumbling, but I know it'll be more reliable'
No, definately stating that a Top-loading H/A machine that would be more reliable than a conventional front loader. |
Post# 560555 , Reply# 30   12/1/2011 at 06:46 (4,391 days old) by foraloysius ![]() |
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Post# 560759 , Reply# 32   12/2/2011 at 00:52 (4,390 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
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TL HA was/is a staple of very-large volume commercial laundries. However, I've seen firsthand 50# FL HA commercial machines and they go as high as 150#. Just for fun, call the Bellagio hotel in Las Vegas, ask for the laundry, and see what they use.
Look at the biggest Unimacs, they are all hugely expanded versions of a home FL. But then look at the biggest Wascomats. They are another beast yet. H axis, double bearing, trapdoor loading, but they load from the front nonetheless. No home machine works this way. Hypothetically, the bearing loads are lower when the tub is supported at both ends. But don't you just know, that consumer manufacturers use that advantage to reduce the bearing integrity and cost rather than increase the reliability. |
Post# 560764 , Reply# 34   12/2/2011 at 02:24 (4,390 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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![]() From a European perspective, probably because they can't be built under a bench or integrated into a kitchen....
From an Australian perspective, there has only been one or two sold here...both were expensive and had a smaller capacity AND lower spin speed than was expected for the money.
I've used a Baukneckt in Germany some years ago that would have been at least 15 years old - lovely brown beast it was....relatively quiet, cleaned well and had provided my partners grandmother faultless service. |
Post# 560767 , Reply# 35   12/2/2011 at 03:54 (4,390 days old) by Launderess ![]() |
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For both commercial and even domestic use had top loading H-Axis washers. Heck I've seen photo's and also are included in my vintage laundry manuals are models with tubs made from wood.
The advantage is was easy to see then in that such *pony* washers didn't require water tight seals the way modern front loaders do today. As for modern "pocket" washers (large H-Axis washers are often divided into compartments beneath the bonnet),the advantages are easy to see. First such machines are easier to load and unload than a similar sized front loader with a boot, especially as one goes up in capacity weight. For commercial laundries in hospitals and or those that frequently do infected/hospital linen these units can be built into a wall where one has a clean and dirty side. Despite their advantages top loading "H-Axis" washers have had limited market penetration in Europe and are virtually nil on this side of the pond except for Staber. One big drawback is that once one goes over a certain capacity the drum must switch to a side to side design. This would be fine for a small washer but to handle large loads you're likely looking at a unit whose cabinet won't fit the standard 24" (or whatever it is) width of American top loading washing machines. With toploading H-Axis washers of a small size such as those sold in Europe by Miele and others the drum is recessed and thus one has a flat surface. By nature *pony* washers have drums/tubs that are raised and covered over. This means giving up that flat surface. Now one could lower the tubs but that means for a washer of any decent capacity (to compete with the 18 or pounds an Amercian top loader holds), but then you are going to have a very deep tub with perhaps a small opening. Not something your average Mrs. American housewife may relish on laundry day trying to fetch out items from the bottom of the tub. |
Post# 560771 , Reply# 36   12/2/2011 at 05:49 (4,390 days old) by Haxisfan (Europe - UK / Italy)   |   | |
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Hi there... sorry for butting in... first congratulations to 'Launderess' for your profile picture showing my favourite actress of all times... Patricia Rout... I mean Mrs Bouquet!
You were mentioning 18 pounds TL H-Axis washers and... on condition that my conversion skills didn't betray me, it should be equivalent to approx 8 kilograms, which is the capacity of the 40cm TL featured in the link below from 'Hoover'. I don't have any experience with these machines but I find it hard to imagine such a huge drum in a confined space 40cm wide. It must have a larger diameter drum... meaning the user must be provided with very stretchy arms and a very solid backbone to unload this machine! I agree with what 'arbilab' was saying about the reliability issue that might affect this kind of washers... the type of construction suggests they are sturdier and less susceptible to bearings failures compared to FLs but it's not necessarily the case. Have you seen the size of the bearings used on TLHAs and the flimsiness of their spider? If they had the same bearings assembly of a front loader on both sides of the tub, then yes... they would be indestructible! CLICK HERE TO GO TO Haxisfan's LINK |
Post# 560828 , Reply# 37   12/2/2011 at 13:07 (4,390 days old) by foraloysius ![]() |
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As a well known Topload H-axis lover I guess I can add my two cents here.
I guess you can say that each design is as good as it's execution (is that good english? lol). It's the way you build them, not the design itself that makes it good. Topload H-axis machines have their own quirks and their own advantages. Rubber gasket: They don't need a rubber gasket when there is an extra lid on the outer tub. My Philips has three lids, one in the inner drum, one in the outer drum and one on top of the machine. It doesn't need a gasket because the outer drum is closed by that second lid. Two bearings: Not all toploaders have two bearings. Miele uses only one, just as in their frontloaders. The drum is only on one side mounted to the machine. Miele did this because they claimed that it solved the problem of two bearings getting out of line. Apparently it was possible that the bearings got out of alignment in a severe off balance situation or so. Frontloaders would not have a problem with this. Capacity: In a way topload h-axis machines use the cabinet space more efficiently. That's why for a long time the smaller h-axis machines had about the same capacity as the frontloaders. European frontloaders have a foot print of 60 x 60cm. Toploaders are usually 60 x 40 or 45cm. I'm waiting for a manufacturer to come with a toploader with a 60 x 60cm footprint, the capacity could be bigger than a same sized frontloader. I told here before that Whirlpool still has an H-axis design on the shelf. Apparently they chose to make the V-axis HE toploaders over the H-axis design. It was explained to me that the H-axis with the two or three lids would be too complicted for the American consumers. I don't know if this would be true, we will never know I guess. Yes, such a machine will be deep, but the big HE toploaders now on the market have deep tubs as well. Here's the Whirlpool design again. ![]() |
Post# 560830 , Reply# 38   12/2/2011 at 13:13 (4,390 days old) by Launderess ![]() |
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You can read more about the Hoover here:
Yes, 8kg runs about 18lbs (or 17.6 closer to be exact)so compared to a standard European "top loader" this washer holds more. However as stated above and as with all H=Axis washer to increase capacity there are several options; increase diameter and or depth of the tub. Considering the small and rather narrow opening of most top loading H-Axis washers like the Hoover it may not be up every woman's street to go digging down into the bowels of the washer to fetch laundry. |
Post# 560837 , Reply# 39   12/2/2011 at 14:50 (4,390 days old) by Jsneaker ()   |   | |
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Hey there, you and I must think exactly alike about our "goobermint" and politicians/bureaucracy! A-MEN! (: |
Post# 560843 , Reply# 40   12/2/2011 at 15:09 (4,390 days old) by Launderess ![]() |
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Federal goverment in the United States did *not* regulate and or otherwise control phosphates or laundry/dishwasher appliance design directly.
Rather they used the Clean Water Act to get states to reduce pollution entering waterways. States could have chosen to build and or improve waste treatment plants to deal with phosphates but that cost is quite dear. Given how cash strapped most states are at the moment it would have been a tough sell especially with residents voting *no* to anything or anyone that increases their taxes. So the easier route was to simply ban the stuff. Since most detergent manufacturers by and large have stopped regional production and now use central plants for a good area of the country making phosphate versus non-phosphate to suit various markets was by and large a no go. Such things are expensive and with the detergent market mature and declining there isn't much incentive. As for water use of washing machines and dishwashers again the federal government hasnt' laid down any laws. Whirlpool or anyone else is perfectly free to design and produce *water hog* washing machines or dishwashers. However then they will loose out on all that Energy Star money not to mention potential sales. The government and consumer groups have done quite a good job in getting people to look for and purchase ES rated appliances. Thus one wonders how well a unit without such a label would do in the market place. Again with the domestic appliance market being a mature one for quite some time, there just isn't that much interest in spending huge amounts on R&D that may not be recouped. |
Post# 560847 , Reply# 42   12/2/2011 at 15:34 (4,390 days old) by Jsneaker ()   |   | |
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Remember well: Asko is made by Electrolux. 'Nuf said. |
Post# 560848 , Reply# 43   12/2/2011 at 15:37 (4,390 days old) by foraloysius ![]() |
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No, it isn't and never has been. Asko is owned by Gorenje, see link.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO foraloysius's LINK |
Post# 560895 , Reply# 45   12/3/2011 at 00:25 (4,389 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
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![]() Hunter, I only commented on WIDTH because I know that US machines are generally wider than the 60cm/24" of European ones.
In Oz, over 95% of all Front Load machines sold are 60cm/24" and most are also 85cm tall, though there are always exceptions and these tend to be machines that have originally been designed for markets that have a different standard, such as the US. |
Post# 561704 , Reply# 46   12/7/2011 at 11:54 (4,385 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)   |   | |
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Yes, it's those metric measurements again :) |