Thread Number: 38099
Whirlpool Accuses Samsung & LG Of Dumping Washers
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Post# 565947   12/30/2011 at 13:03 (4,580 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Post# 566017 , Reply# 1   12/30/2011 at 20:26 (4,580 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)        
it will be...

...interesting to see how this plays out.

I wonder what the reality is?


Post# 566024 , Reply# 2   12/30/2011 at 23:07 (4,580 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Given the quality of some of the machines WP has sold in the last decade, they could be accused of dumping also except they were dumping washers on the people that bought them. Granted, it's many years later, but the very basic engineering of the SQ FL is brilliant in so many ways that the Duet could have been. For example, after the wash drains, the SQ opens the cold water valve so that a small flow of water flushes suds out of the machine to keep it from choking on suds when it goes into the first spin. The Bendix and Westinghouse did this and also flushed some of the suds out of the load, but in this day and time, we are not going to see water used in that quantity for that purpose again. Even my Mieles don't do something like this although they have their own way of coping succesfully with this situation and remain the best I have ever used. When the SQ goes into each pulse spin, the pump shuts off to prevent air locking and comes back on to strongly pump out a gush of water when the tub coasts back to the distribution spin speed which is fast enough to keep the load stuck to the cylinder so that it does not have to waste time distributing for the next spin. It's not perfect; what is down here? If it does not distribute properly, you can miss a whole spin sequence between water changes, but it is so much much better than the Duet, which WP had made by a company that had been making front loaders for a long time, but a company which Louis told us was not known for making high quality washing machines. If WP had made better machines, they would not have to worry about competition from Samsung & LG. The Duet choked on almost every first attempt at spin and, even when perfectly balanced, would coast to a stop while the pump struggled to pump out the water. If the machine had ramped up to spin more gradually, like my W1986 does, it might not have had to deal with the surge of water that tripped the flood switch every first time it tried to spin. If it had kept the load plastered to the sides of the cylinder instead of stopping and letting them fall, it could have been a better performing washer and completed loads in less time.

It's almost analogous to the situation in which President Obama finds himself because instead of doing the right thing and going after the financiers, he half-stepped and refused to clean house because he owed them so much and had their people in his inner circles helping him make unwise, compromised decisions. Now, Wall Street hates the Democrats anyway, including the President, because of the small steps they are trying to take to regulate excesses whereas if the financiers had been investigated and prosecuted instead of coddled, they might not be in the same powerful position they are in now to cause the President worry about being elected to a second term, the economy might be better and people would not have the suspicion that the President did not do all he could have done to fix things. Had WP demanded a first rate tumbler washer instead of settling for a cheaper machine, they could have assumed the top position with front loaders and brands like LG & Samsung would not be competition on the same rung of the ladder.

Sorry to inject politics into this, but mediocrity is mediocrity anywhere it exists.


Post# 566031 , Reply# 3   12/31/2011 at 00:45 (4,580 days old) by toploader1984 ()        
lg

wait a minute....... WTF!??? i have a whirlpool refrigerator that is made in MEXICO..... i guess whirlpool is calling the kettle black?

Post# 566035 , Reply# 4   12/31/2011 at 01:49 (4,580 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
.

iheartmaytag's profile picture
I have a Whirlpool/Maytag washer that was made in Germany, and what about those Mexico made Whirlpools?
Someone just wants to make their monopoly stronger.,


Post# 566045 , Reply# 5   12/31/2011 at 02:57 (4,580 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
I.M.H.O PLEASE...

I've seen a lot of videos on youtube where Whirlpool Duet washers have failed anywhere between 14 months to a few short years and the reasons for those failures are downright inexcusable. Broken spiders due to corrosion, worn out bearings, electronic failures and obviously poor quality control.

Their top loaders really don't fare much better, leaving residue on the clothing, the seals failing, flooding the laundry room and more electronic failures. GE isn't faring much better either.

Of course, this is just from youtube videos. Search the web for reviews on their machines and there are tons of complaints. If you ran WCI and you sold 10 million machines a year, but 0.1 percent of those machines were lemons, that's still a pretty good success rate, right? Well, still that's 10,000 bum machines which went out the door. That's a potential for 10,000 unhappy and impatient customers. Even then, 1,000 negative reviews on the net make for the potential loss of millions of dollars of sales!

Whirlpool is going about this the wrong way. If they want to put Samsung and LG out of business, the only solution is to stop building crap and take a page right out of Alliance laundry's book and learn how to build a machine properly. Heck, even if Whirlpool just rebadged a SQ machine and put some fancy electronics in it, that would be better than what they are selling now.

Miele machines are known for their quality because their QA department tests for 10,000 cycles before they go out the door. I think Alliance tests for 25,000 cycles. (I'm not sure) ... What does Whirlpool do? Do they even care?

The biggest problem with corporate America has nothing to do with the Republicans or the Democrats and frankly I couldn't give a damn because I'm not an American.

The problem is that Quality doesn't make a company money, selling lots of machines makes a company money.

In other words, there's no business case for building a reliable machine, at least in the eyes of the executive. Maytag executives learned this horrible lesson and it seems that WCI is too big to fail for their executives to learn this lesson either.

Another part of the problem is that if you go to any big box store, you'll always see WCI machines (Whirlpool, Maytag, etc) there but rarely ever Speed Queen. In my part of the world, I practically had to beg for a Huebsch machine. Since WCI is so big, they can afford to build crappy machines, because who else are you going to? How is the consumer going to know that SQ is much better if they just want it NOW and they want it at the cheapest price?

The other problem is with the consumer. A consumer walks into a big box store and they want to spend as little money as possible. They shop around and find the cheapest front loader than can find. They may spend a bit extra if they know it has some additional features the others don't have.

For example, Samsung and LG rely very heavily on marketing gimmicks like "Powerfoam" and "VRT" to sell their machines, not to mention the half-million number of cycles that do this, that and the other thing. When a consumer looks at a SQ machine, how could they know what quality looks like under the hood? They just see the bland looking, utilitarian controls and immediately think "Bottom end".. Then they look at the price and get a perceived look of poor value for the money.

Whirlpool is trying to catch up, but they are being taught a very expensive lesson by the other manufacturers out there. Only when WCI starts learning the lessons that Maytag execs did, maybe they'll step back and realize that the only way to compete is to build a better machine.

I honestly believe that if you have a tub which is 4.4 cu.ft, it should be rated to hold 30 lbs of laundry... not 20. I'm alarmed to see domestic washers with 5.0 cu.ft tubs when there are commercial washers which are nearly 3x the size with the same (Or similar) tub capacity and they weigh hundreds of pounds more.

I'm sure there are people out there who have a WCI washer which is around 10 years old and it works fine, it always has and it'll probably last another 10 years before something goes wrong with it, but you rarely ever hear from those people. Maybe WCI isn't building the junk they used to. Time will tell.


Post# 566046 , Reply# 6   12/31/2011 at 03:08 (4,580 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

I just thought I should add in something else here..

A lot of executives today are building taught that short term profits are what matters.. Sell as much as you can no matter what the consequences.. Profits always come first, customer loyalty second.. there are lots of customers out there who will always buy your product at least once.

Nobody thinks about long term profits a company could make thirty years down the road. Nobody thinks about Brand Loyalty anymore when there are so many different brands on the market.

GM lost me as a customer because they sold me a vehicle that developed serious mechanical issues which could have been prevented had they designed it right the first time... or at least stood behind their product and said, "We made a mistake, we'll fix it and own up to it." .. instead they left me, their customer, out in the cold with thousands of dollars in repair bills which didn't need to be done, had it been designed properly the first time.

What they didn't realize at the time is that they lost me for life. I could have bought three or four GM products in my lifetime, but they'll only sell me one. I learned my lesson. I've owned my Hyundai for eight years now and I've had less problems with it in the entire time I've owned it than the three years I owned a GM product.

So, my next vehicle would most likely be another Hyundai.. This is what the executives should be thinking about.. what I'm not buying now, but what I will buy ten or fifteen years from now after my initial purchase.. and that's what counts.

When GM cries and says, "How come nobody is buying our cars?", maybe the first question they should be asking is, "Why are there so many Hyundais on the road?"


Post# 566070 , Reply# 7   12/31/2011 at 08:20 (4,579 days old) by alr2903 (TN)        

Maybe  WP could restart some production over in Newton Iowa, as a gesture of good faith and to insure their prominence in the market.  If  I lived in Iowa i sure as hell would not buy a rebadged Whirlpool even if i had to get a tub and a scrub board.  alr


Post# 566074 , Reply# 8   12/31/2011 at 09:04 (4,579 days old) by paulg (My sweet home... Chicago)        
My suspicions

paulg's profile picture
Well, I have no proof of my suspicions, but here are my two cents.
The Samsung / LG alleged appliance dumping in the US rings very familiar to me.
What happened to the US television manufacturing industry? HELLO!!!
TVs were dumped and dumped into the USA killing the ENTIRE manufacturing industry. Zenith (and others) fought and lost the battle. (As an aside, this hurt me a great deal as Zenith, Motorola, Admiral, Warwick and Wells-Gardner were all making TVs in Chicago. By the time I got out of school they were dead or dying).
Whirlpool is likely today's Zenith. I just wonder if ... much like the influx of foreign TVs in years past, these foreign (typically Korean or Chinese) appliance manufacturers have unique and tasty deals with the retailers that are hard or impossible for USA manufacturers to participate with.
Don't say that the quality of the USA product is so wretched. USA TVs DID PRODUCE a great picture and worked well. USA washers CLEAN CLOTHES and work well. Is the foreign stuff SO MUCH BETTER? In my opinion, NO. I believe the masses think that foreign brands are different, chic. And people buy tons of it because "it's not that old brand that my mother and grandmother owned." I really think that people who buy these foreign brands are a bit smug. The fact that they deviated from convention and bought a different, foreign brand somehow makes them smarter. Personally I cannot buy an appliance made outside of the USA when a reasonable equivalent is made here.
The problems that need to be fixed?
THE RETAILERS - who are eating up spicy deals from the foreign suppliers that mean bucks for their box-store but kill our jobs in the USA.
THE USA MANUFACTURER - who should meet and exceed every attribute of a foreign product and flaunt it. Fight the dumping.
THE CUSTOMER - who buys foreign blindly for its chic appeal. Who also buys foreign when USA factories supplying good jobs to their families and friends churn out a good equivalent.
I really blame the customer a lot for the influx of USA job-killing foreign appliances. Today's kids buying appliances don't seem to understand the value of 100 year old Whirlpool or GE support or the quality of Speed-Queen. USA appliances work. They work well. They keep your families in jobs.
Many of my job options died due to dumping. The USA retailers were a big cause in my opinion. However, had the USA customer been a bit more patriotic and bought a Zenith or Admiral etc, my job options would not have dried up as they did.
My rant is over.


Post# 566111 , Reply# 9   12/31/2011 at 14:54 (4,579 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

arbilab's profile picture
Two things happened to business, at least in the US and probably everywhere since they all follow our precedents. One is, ethics went out the window. The other is, management used to rise through the ranks with an understanding of the product and the customer and an appreciation for the company's reputation.

Today, management waltzes in with an MBA and absolutely no concept of product or customer, only spreadsheets. And no loyalty to anything but this quarter's financial report. HR puts up posters about customer satisfaction but I guaran-dam-tee that's as far as it goes, posters.

Can't expect much but fancy brochures about useless features from a structure like that.

Little known story about dumping. Forgot where I read it, long time ago, heyday of VHS. Sears and Panasonic were accused by the Justice Department of a dumping/kickback scheme on VHS. Sears bought them at fair price but every year Panasonic kicked them back making the ultimate price of the product below what it cost to make and transport it. Definition of dumping. It was set to go to trial but suddenly and inexplicably dropped.

Here's another more current one. For years if not decades, Intel kicked back on Pentiums to Dell. For many recent quarters the kickback represented Dell's entire profit. The SEC rattled their cage for bogus bookkeeping and without admitting guilt Dell and Intel agreed to cease and desist. Did they really? Or did they just get more sly about the way they wrote it down?


Post# 566119 , Reply# 10   12/31/2011 at 15:48 (4,579 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)        
I know for a fact

firedome's profile picture
that dumping killed off much of the US steel industry... my own Dad was a corporate VP of Bethlehem Steel, at one time in the top 10 biggest companies in the US. They were killed by anti-competitive dumping by Euro, Indian and Asian steel companies, some of which had their plants re-built by the USA via the Marshall Plan. It's a common practice of low-wage countries to undercut prices long enough to gain the upper hand then when they've killed off enough competition raise prices again. It's happened time and again. WP needs to make a quality product in the US, price it and service it properly, be on a level playing field with price competition, and they will thrive.

On another note, is it general consensus then that SQ is the best US made washer at present? Are they still around? No dealers here I think. I'm more of a kitchen - d/w and range - guy, so am not up to speed on current laundry products so much. We may need to replace our daily driver washer soon.


Post# 566126 , Reply# 11   12/31/2011 at 16:15 (4,579 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Paul, the WP washers I wrote about are not made in the USA. Rather than design & tool up to make a tumbler washer, they went shopping for a foreign company with experience in making tumbler washers to build it for them. They are not alone; GE did the same thing as did Maytag, partially, while it still existed. My slamming the Duet did not mean that US appliances don't work; it's not a US-made appliance. Buying one does not mean jobs for US factory workers. Even the parts to repair the various brands are not made here. They are made all over the world. Speed Queen makes a tumbler washer in the United States. When WP complains about dumping of tumbler washers, they are thinking sales, not manufacturing jobs.

Post# 566165 , Reply# 12   12/31/2011 at 17:07 (4,579 days old) by laundromat (Hilo, Hawaii)        
Bendix Westinghouse Frigidaire Norge

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All but one of these manufacturers had their own front loading washers Bendix being the king for decades then Westinghouse and finaly, Norge.Other companies like Apex and Dexter had their own methods which were different but were,in my opinion great performing and dependable.Dexter is the only front loading washing machine manufacturer that was able to stay afloat all this time and bought the commercial line of Bendix laundry equipment.Dexter now makes a great line of commercial laundry equipment and backs them up.

I still believe that,had Proctor and Gamble not attempted to advertise their detergents (Dishwashing liquid, floor care products,bath soaps and hair care products included)by claiming "Oceans of suds" on the Tide boxes along with other detergents they made,consumers here in the continental U.S.would have been more confident in purchasing front loading washers and be quite a bit more educated on how to use and take care of them.Most of the Europeans I, myself, know and/or had met while in England,are qute a bit more familiar with how to use and take care of their front loading washers because they learned from their mistakes as well as the manufacturers learning the "bugs' that were showing up during the period where they went from the twin tub agitator units to the front loading, compact ,models.While there, I saw more front loaders then top loaders which was great for my intersts and so many different brands and features to choose from.

Because of our failing economy and just plane old greed, companies like Whirlpool and GE decided to play "hard ball" and move their manufacturing overseas putting thousands of American employees on unemployment.WCI ( Now known as Electrolux of Sweden)opened a huge plant in Agusta ,GA.where they make mostly front loading washers under many different brand names including Wascomat, Frigidaire, Crosley, kenmore and GE.They just began to make a new top loader (due to be on the market before February)members here may have different opinions on the new Frigidaire company and the way they "used to be" But, I think it's only fair for them to admit, as others here may disagree with me, our favorite old appliance manufacturer has certainly come a long way,don't you agree??

I like the SQs as well. They're built to last and do great getting clothes really clean and spun out well enough to dry clothes faster either on the line or in the dryer.They too are American made and come with the strongest warranty ever,3 years parts and labor.However, they're real costly and only available in "select dealerships" kind of the way FRIGIDAIRE was before they spread out to be carried at box stores like KMart.If you were an authoised dealer, you had to also be a service company AND, there was a quota you had to either meet or your ass was grass. No exceptions. That's one reason why a lot of the dealerships,when WCI took over, were furious to have to work on so many "piece of shit" appliances.They, as well as Maytag and Speed Queen got their reputation from being that pickey on who was to carry their quality products and who to avoid.

Now, it's way different. I know of many folks who've never heard of Speed Queen.However, they have heard of L.G., Frigidaire, Hoover and Electrolux.Most dealerships are going "belly up" and the box stores are taking advantage of it buying the big white goods at a steal and making larger margins to sell them.I recently saw Homo Depot selling an L.G. set for only $499 each!! I thought to myself that,if the competing brands and/or stores would have differnt brand front loading machines at that same price, a lot more people would be converting.

Just FYI

I was told yesterday that I will be released (discharged) this wednesday (1/4/12) from here. My neurologist is on vacation until that Tuesday. he'll be here to make the final decision on what procedures are going to be aranged,if any to follow up on my tumors.I am planning on moving to a condo in Hilo buy the bay.I'll keep you posted.

Happy New Year!!!!


Post# 566214 , Reply# 13   1/1/2012 at 03:30 (4,579 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
To PaulG

> What happened to the US television manufacturing industry? HELLO!!!

I agree. All of the manufacturing involving electronics was moved overseas due to the cost of labour. I find it ironic that Intel makes CPU's for computers in the USA, but all of the rest of the components are made usually somewhere in East Asia, like Taiwan.

This is a story we are going to see time and time again where manufacturing jobs are moving out of the US due to the high cost of labour in comparison to everywhere else. The US is becoming a country of managers.

Even today in the US, it is not competitive to start an electronics company. Ever looked on the back of an Apple Product? Designed in the US, but made by Foxconn... in Taiwan.

How can a worker in the US which gets paid $21 an hour (Plus benefits) compete with someone in Thailand who is being paid the equivalent of 55 cents an hour? They can't. They also have absolutely abhorrent labour practices there too. Something which hasn't been seen in Europe or North America since the 1700's.. 16 hour work days, working 7 days a week with zero benefits.

Labour unions? In a communist China? Yeah right. Not going to happen. Even if the workers stand up and unite, the government will be quick to arrest them. If they put up a fight, they are executed. (That whole human rights thing...)

This type of competition is killing every manufacturing industry in the US and in Canada. Heck, Electrolux was given a large tax subsidy by the Ontario government if they would keep their vacuum cleaner manufacturing in Canada, but the pricks moved their factories down to Mexico because.... it was cheaper. Go figure.

> foreign appliance manufacturers have unique and tasty deals with the retailers
> that are hard or impossible for USA manufacturers to participate with.

Agreed!! When labour is cheap, the end price is cheap.. which means consumers are more likely to buy it... So, you have the Wal-Mart syndrome.. everyone wants their $8 waffle makers.

> Don't say that the quality of the USA product is so wretched.

In my rant, I didn't mean to say that anything US made sucked. US made TV sets were built like tanks and lasted as long as them too, provided you kept changing the tubes and replaced the dried out electrolytic caps as required. Yes, they were expensive, but it wasn't uncommon for a family to keep the same set for 10-20 years before it was ready for the scrap heap.

The problem is that a lot of US companies had to cut corners to keep their product competitively priced for the market. Since the quality sucked, they sold less. Since they sold less, they have to cut more corners to stay competitive. It is a vicious cycle.

We see it all the time with restaurants here. They start off with low prices and excellent food. Then the quality of the food starts dropping and the prices slowly start going up. As a result, they get less customers, so the prices keep going up and the food eventually ends up sucking. Pretty soon, you end up paying $30 for a steak which is made from Grade C beef which has excessive amounts of meat glue in it to give it the appearance of an actual steak. (Yes, this has happened to me.) Of course, the inevitable happens....

> USA washers CLEAN CLOTHES and work well.

Let me fix that for you... "USA Built washers clean clothes and work well."

> Is the foreign stuff SO MUCH BETTER? In my opinion, NO.

I disagree with that. I'll keep citing Miele as an example. Miele could have been based out of the US for all I care.. but the reason why they have their reputation is because of the company policies and methodologies behind how they manufacture their product. Are they expensive? Heck yeah. Is it worth it? Absolutely.

> I believe the masses think that foreign brands are different, chic.

I think that is a part of it, but I don't think that is the rule. I think it's more like, "It's on Sale at Wal-Mart for $500, so I'm buying it." that is the problem. Some consumers couldn't care less what it is badged under, they just want the features and the functionality for the best price.

> The fact that they deviated from convention and bought a foreign brand somehow makes them smarter.

I would like to disagree with that sentiment. It all depends on the circumstances. If you have a high powered lawyer who wants a status symbol in his basement, it's not going to say "GE" on it. :-) The mother of four children couldn't care less, but if they do, they'll buy something they know works.

> THE RETAILERS

Yes. That's exactly it. GE and WCI have some really solid tie ins with most of the major distribution channels. All of the appliances in our home were Roper (WCI) ones. The washer/dryer set were Whirlpool. However, LG and Samsung are making some really good inroads into that market. The day when I see homes come with those appliances, it will pretty much be game over.

> THE USA MANUFACTURER

Which is becoming a rare breed. I agree, they should make the foreign product look like a toy or garbage in comparison. How to do it though? Well, if you found two washers that did exactly the same thing, had all the same features, had exactly the same tub size and even the same warranty, but the US made washer cost $1000 more, which one would you buy?

How do you go to the management and say, "Your price point needs to be $1000 lower to stay competitive." .. If you were in their shoes, how would you do it?

> THE CUSTOMER

The customer ultimately speaks with their money. However, it is also market forces and reputation which also drive the sales. Marketing can only take a company so far. When you have a mother of four children who buys a new Whirlpool and the thing breaks down 2 months after the warranty has expired and she's still got another years worth of payments left on it and Whirlpool wants 75 percent of the cost of the machine to fix it, who do you think she's going to buy from next time?

> I really blame the customer a lot for the influx of USA job-killing foreign
> appliances.

I think the customer is one part of the equation, but it is not the sole cause. We live in a world economy and in order for the US to stay competitive, there has to be a lot of things which have to change. Again, how do you compete with someone who makes 55 cents an hour?

> Today's kids buying appliances don't seem to understand the value of 100 year
> old Whirlpool or GE support

That's the problem. What good is all that support if the company doesn't stand behind their product?

> or the quality of Speed-Queen.

Agreed. Selling the interior of a machine is a lot harder than selling gizmos and features. Especially when you consider their "Top End" front loader has as many features as a BOL WCI, GE, LG or Samsung machine, but costs as much as a TOL one.

It is much easier to sell "Powerfoam", than it is to sell, "A tub spider which doesn't break after a few short years of regular use."

> been a bit more patriotic and bought a Zenith or Admiral etc,

That's the problem as well. I'm Canadian so patriotism doesn't come into the mix. I couldn't care if a TV was made in Chicago or Taiwan. What I want is something which is built well, has a good warranty and is decently priced. I will find the best manufacturer out there and I won't buy an inferior product.

With my parents growing up, I recall we had a GE TV set, then a Ford Philco TV, then a Magnavox, then a Hitachi.. All of those were domestic (As domestic as can be living in Canada) except for the last one.. Why did my father buy a Hitachi? It was the cheapest 46" TV on the floor at the time. (Back in 1992)


Post# 566215 , Reply# 14   1/1/2012 at 03:42 (4,579 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
To Arbilab

> ethics went out the window.

Agreed. It's sad that there are courses businessmen have to take on "Business Ethics".

> management used to rise through the ranks with an understanding of the product

That's the thing. How many executives at GE or WCI actually have a washer/dryer set in their laundry room made by their company? Do they even understand what goes into the machines? Do they understand what the market is like? Do they even care?

It really makes me mad when I hear things from the CEO or some other executive at a car company say things like, "I'm not a car guy." .. WTF? That's like when Apple hired the Ex-CEO of Pepsi to run the company.. didn't know a thing about computers. Apple only got back on their feet when Steve joined the company again, because he knew what a computer should be.

If anything, it should be mandated that WCI or GE executives hang around on automaticwasher.org and get to understand us and our thoughts behind what really should constitute a washing machine. They should learn from their past.

I would love it if we could get a room full of GE Filter-Flo fanatics together and then bring in a bunch of GE executives in the large appliance division and have a sleep over... and lock the windows and all the doors. Hopefully, there won't be too much blood. :) :) :)

> and the customer and an appreciation for the company's reputation.

We saw this demonstrated when Maytag had a valuable and trusted brand name destroyed in ten short years because the executives didn't understand that value and trust only come with time, not profits.

> management waltzes in with an MBA and absolutely no concept of product or
> customer, only spreadsheets.

DING!!!! You couldn't have described that better. This is just exactly it.

At least at GM, they make the executives use their own product. That's a step in the right direction. Now, if only they would make them BUY their own product.


Post# 566217 , Reply# 15   1/1/2012 at 03:48 (4,579 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
To Firedome

> WP needs to make a quality product in the US, price it and service it properly,

Agreed. The key thing you said there was "Price it". My previous posts here mention why that is a real big problem.

> is it general consensus then that SQ is the best US made washer at present?

Without sounding like a complete fanboi, yes. My personal e-mail is qualin@n0$pam.shaw.ca .. I'll be glad to e-mail you the reasons why. :)

> Are they still around?

Yup. They're made by Alliance Laundry Systems now. They specialize in making commercial laundry equipment and just happen to also be in the consumer market too. :) They're based out of Ripon, WI.


Post# 566218 , Reply# 16   1/1/2012 at 03:52 (4,579 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
To Tomturbomatic

> the WP washers I wrote about are not made in the USA.

Where are they made and who makes them?

> Buying one does not mean jobs for US factory workers.

That's the other problem. If you buy a GM product, you may actually be buying a Korean-Made car, believe it or not. (GM bought out Daewoo.) You can't be sure by buying an American branded name that you are even buying American.

Buying something to be "Patriotic" is getting to be a very irrelevant idea these days... that's very unfortunate.

> Speed Queen makes a tumbler washer in the United States.

One of the few! I think all of us should someday arrange for a factory tour. I would gladly fly out to Ripon, WI to see how they make their machines.


Post# 566219 , Reply# 17   1/1/2012 at 04:07 (4,579 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
To Laundromat

> WCI ( Now known as Electrolux of Sweden)opened a huge plant in Agusta ,GA.

I was not aware of that.. I guess you clarified something for me. I thought WCI made Whirlpool, guess I was wrong. I'm glad to see that they at least opened a plant. That's a very good sign. Maybe all my doom and gloom in the last few posts may not be quite all that.

> including Wascomat, Frigidaire, Crosley, kenmore and GE.

ARGH! Really!??! I'm under the impression that Wascomat washers are some of the best in the industry! How can the same company make the best and worst washers all at the same time from the same factory!?!

This clinches it.. Why the heck can't they build Wascomat Quality into a TOL FL washer and sell it to the consumer channel? I would have paid $2k-$2.5k for one of those machines... it would have beat the service and support that Miele offers!

> They just began to make a new top loader

I'm assuming this is a washplate style machine?

> come with the strongest warranty ever,3 years parts and labor.

That is exactly why I was willing to spend nearly $2k on one of their machines. How can a company sell such an expensive machine if they won't stand behind it? Well, considering that their machines have 3x the warranty of anything else on the market, that really says something about the confidence level that company has in their machines.

As a consumer, I have a real big problem dropping $2k on a Samsung or LG machine, only to have it break down 14 months later with all kinds of electronics problems, then get told that I need to spend $1500 on a mainboard.

> If you were an authorized dealer, you had to also be a service company

"We service what we sell." .. That sounds reasonable enough to me.

> I know of many folks who've never heard of Speed Queen.

Isn't that sad? Shame they just don't spend more on marketing like they used to. They would become a real force against the other mfr's out there.

> I recently saw Homo Depot selling an L.G. set for only $499 each!!

Two things.. LOL on the name... Second... I can see how the housewife with four kids would just buy that without a second thought.

> I was told yesterday that I will be released (discharged) this wednesday

Congratulations!


Post# 566220 , Reply# 18   1/1/2012 at 04:09 (4,579 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
Apologies

Oh, to anyone reading this thread...

I apologize for my lengthy and numerous posts on this topic, but this topic has really hit a hot button with me and I feel I have a lot to add into the conversation.

Now that I got most of my ranting out there for all to see, hopefully my posts will be a little shorter. :)


Post# 566223 , Reply# 19   1/1/2012 at 04:43 (4,579 days old) by 112561 (River Park, in Port St. Lucie, Florida)        
To Qualin

112561's profile picture

Guys like you are one of the reasons I would move to Canada. Everything you've written so far is right on the money. Keep up the good work!


Post# 566269 , Reply# 20   1/1/2012 at 11:47 (4,578 days old) by paulg (My sweet home... Chicago)        
Love it

paulg's profile picture
Love the feedback and discussion! Interesting and great reading. Glad its a hot topic for many - certainly not a boring thread.

Post# 566311 , Reply# 21   1/1/2012 at 15:49 (4,578 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)        
thanks for the info

firedome's profile picture
qualin and all of you... why I come here.
I hope to learn more about Speed Queen... my last memory of them was when they were usually the laundry set of choice being given away on "Queen For A Day"... ooooh now I've REALLY dated myself!


Post# 566317 , Reply# 22   1/1/2012 at 16:35 (4,578 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

arbilab's profile picture
It's a major pull-to-start issue for me, I lost a 6-figure career to this process and watched it happen from the inside. I was engineering integrity engineer for Dell, at the time the Maytag of the industry. I'm still using a 1998 Dell, they were bulletproof and the service comprehensive.

But in 2001 the MBAs got ahold of Dell and took the guts out. Laid off everybody who knew anything and gave a shatner (me and everyone I knew). Now they're the WCI of computers and service consists mostly of "accidentally" hanging up on customers so they'll give up and go away.

They threw all their engineering onto Foxconn (Taiwan) which actually does all their work (that which actually gets done*) in China. Where the factories had to install nets around their buildings to keep employees from comitting suicide off the roof. Foxconn also has contract facilities in Mexico, where employees have set fire to the plant. Three times.

* When it comes to engineering integrity, Dell asks Foxconn "did you test it, does it work?" and Foxconn says "sure it does". But actually testing it would cost them $3 a week wages. No "self respecting" Taiwanese businessman is going to pass up an opportunity to stuff $3 in his pocket. So they lie. And Dell buys it, even knowing otherwise.

What were we saying about ethics?


Post# 566399 , Reply# 23   1/2/2012 at 03:33 (4,578 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
To Firedome and Arbilab

Firedome: www.speedqueen.com... .. Everything you could ever want to know. They also have a facebook channel as well.

To Arbilab:

I've worked in the IT industry for close to 21 years, so I can sympathize with you.

> I was engineering integrity engineer for Dell,

I remember back in the early 2000's, a Chinese capacitor manufacturer stole a electrolyte formulation from a Japanese company, but they left out a very critical component of the formulation which would have stopped Hydrogen from building up in the capacitors.

This Chinese company underbid everyone and sold massive amounts of these defective capacitors to everyone. They were in EVERYTHING... but most noticeably, I saw them in Dell servers.

I have seen ENTIRE RACKS of Dell servers fail because of these bad capacitors. Dell basically told me to !@#$% off because I was a small time customer. I swore that the only Dell servers I'd ever buy from that point on would be corporate non-mission critical budget-critical machines. (ie. You get what you pay for. If the server blows up, who cares, just replace it.)

I think Dell learned a very expensive lesson from this.

> I'm still using a 1998 Dell, they were bulletproof and the service comprehensive.

The Dells my company uses now have been pretty rock solid for the most part. They're all late 2000's vintage (The oldest one being from 2006) and they've had absolutely remarkable uptime. Their service support on the other hand.... well, don't get me started.

> But in 2001 the MBAs got ahold of Dell and took the guts out.

That probably explains the switch to the lowest bidder when it came to the parts for their machines and probably the outsourcing too. I don't have anything against Indians, but outsourcing has cost them a lot more than they realize.

>Now they're the WCI of computers and service consists mostly of "accidentally"
>hanging up on customers so they'll give up and go away.

... and that's assuming that you don't manage to actually speak with someone with an extremely heavy Punjabi accident who barely understands the issue. I think outsourcing their customer service was one of the worst business decisions they ever made.. but I'm glad to hear they reversed their stand on it.

> install nets around their buildings to keep employees from comitting suicide off

I read about that. The sad part is, even if Dell knew to take very strict measures with Foxconn and say things like, "No employee works more than 8 hours a day", etc, etc... The factory owners and managers will find ways around that.. They will fudge the timeclocks, etc.. When the ethics don't exist, no amount of honesty can be forced upon people.

> where employees have set fire to the plant. Three times.

Wow. They must really hate their jobs to do that. At least in Mexico, they can unionize. I think it is certainly sad that Unions haven't stood up for these people. It's a huge political battle too. They still don't have rules there which protect Unions... at least, not yet.

> Dell asks Foxconn "did you test it, does it work?" and Foxconn says "sure it
> does".

Heh.. "We sold it to you and the customer didn't return it. Isn't that enough?"

> What were we saying about ethics?

You drive home some very good points. I only wonder what it would take to put a complete and total stop to this. Legislation? Huge import tariffs?


Post# 566407 , Reply# 24   1/2/2012 at 04:50 (4,578 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        
To Qualin

foraloysius's profile picture
The Duets were designed by Bauknecht. Do a Searchalator search on the words Duet and Bauknecht and you will find lots of information.

Post# 566519 , Reply# 25   1/2/2012 at 17:33 (4,577 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
A New Year

mrb627's profile picture
Funny,

I had company over for New Year's Day and they took turns filing through the laundry room to look at my shiny Speed Queen's. All but one of my guests didn't know who Speed Queen was and the one commented that they went out of business year's ago.

Unless you get out and do your research, you wont know anything about Speed Queen.

Additionally, nobody knew anything about Miele and couldn't pronounce it either.

Malcolm



Post# 566551 , Reply# 26   1/2/2012 at 19:22 (4,577 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

And you were surprised why?

Post# 566615 , Reply# 27   1/3/2012 at 04:31 (4,577 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

I agree that education has a large leading factor into it.

It certainly is easy for a consumer to walk into an appliance shop or worse, a big box hardware store and just buy the first thing the salesman tells them to.

Malcolm, I'm glad to hear that you are proud of your laundry set. Showing off my washer/dryer to guests isn't something I would normally do. :) (I did once think about buying the Imperial set, but the washer sells for $2700 here. Strangely enough, the dryer is only $100 more. I didn't really see the advantage of spending the extra $900 to get stainless steel over white cabinets.)

If Alliance just got out there and put up a few TV ads that said, "We're not out of business!!! Buy our stuff!", I'm sure that would change a few minds quickly. Hanging out on Facebook and having year old videos on youtube doesn't really cut it IMHO. It helps, but it's not enough.



Post# 566640 , Reply# 28   1/3/2012 at 09:02 (4,576 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
nobody knew anything about Miele and couldn't pronounce

ronhic's profile picture

I'm stunned....

 

I reckon that I could show 100 random people walking in the street the Miele brand (red logo and correct font) and on a bad day, 60-70% would recognise the brand and could tell me at least 2 products they make....

 

But then, they have sold in our market for well over 30 years now and with 95% of our population concentrated in major cities (compared to 31% USA), maybe we've had more promotional exposure......


Post# 566713 , Reply# 29   1/3/2012 at 16:29 (4,576 days old) by nrones ()        
Shame I didn't see this thread earlier :(

I just thought exactly about this.
Since my visit to a factory, I got in touch with so many people who are "in the industry" completely independent from any manufacturer. People both from Serbia and Italy (mostly ones who aren't nececarily connected to the manufacturer in who's factory I went).

I noticed that engineers in the industry that are there for a lot of years, literally laugh at Samsung or LG machines. They simply don't want to accept them as genuine washing machine producers, especially older ones (50+ years old) which talk about them with certain level of hate like:
"Manufacturers of both washers and detergents, worked throught decades (long before Samsung even existed), on less suds, anti-suds systems etc, and NOW we are seing unbelivable - something that "we've been fighting with" for decades, we see as EXCLUSIVE option, which makes and fills drum to the top with it. They just look at them as ridiculous things, that "You have to be blind to not-see inexperience of their engineers". That's what they said, I still don't have an oppineon about that, but for now, I respect what those people said. So I guess if I asked them about this, I thing they'd deffinatley be on WP's side

Sadly, all the big talk ends up on costumers, and people who sell all those products (which are here in 90% completely un-educated, and non-interested, just waiting for payment for on their account to show up) who are both PIGS and DONKEYS (gentle words used), which care only about money, and find 1000s of reasons to convince you that they are right when they don't even care neither about washing, brand(name), if it comes from their country or not, quality, some of them even comment "ah we don't need to be that clean, we aren't a hospital" etc
Before I saw that with my eyes, and heared it with my ears, I thought such people don't exist on planet Earth - but it seems I was very wrong :(

Dex


Post# 567193 , Reply# 30   1/5/2012 at 21:06 (4,574 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)        
Miele in USA

Maybe there's little exposure to Miele in the USA because it is only a 'snob appeal' brand?

You know, 'if you have to advertise, you aren't snobby enough'?

Or maybe Americans just aren't domestic?


Post# 567198 , Reply# 31   1/5/2012 at 21:25 (4,574 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
my 2 cents in this post

pierreandreply4's profile picture
Here is my 2 cents in this post i think for 1 thing its the fact that its competition for 1 thing and second i have a 2004 duet whirlpool washer dryer set that are 8 years old and they are still workingand in fall 2012 it will be the 9 year i have this generation 1 duet set and they are still working and second the main reason brands like miele washers are unkown to consumers is because the price must be pretty high or the capecety of the washer do not fit familys of todays needs and as for huebesh speed queen in canada and the us if speed queen wents to be known in the consumers market they should realse tv commercials and advertise in magazines or have a set hook up and saying to the consumers try us in store and if you love or cleaning power buy us for your family needs well this is my 2 cent in this post.

Post# 567406 , Reply# 32   1/6/2012 at 15:26 (4,573 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Miele

launderess's profile picture
While vastly more popular than say ten years ago still is a niche brand in the USA and will remain so far as one can see.

With a limited distribution network and all parts having to be imported from Germany (other than what is already in stock at the main warehouse in New Jersey), service work in particular DIY is difficult. If one lives near a main (upscale) urban area then finding a dealer and or repairman is likely to be eaiser than other parts of the United States.

In Europe one can walk into any number of supply houses or find on the Internet parts for Miele appliances. There is also a very large network of service personnel for repair work not just those directly from Miele. This helps because the world round Miele's call out charges are dear.

When the offerings of front loading washing machines were few in the USA Miele made sense, but with the American market virtually moving towards all front loaders there are other obvious and less expensive choices.

Unlike Asko and Bosch Miele refuses to build a plant in North America so everything sold here must incur extra costs for duty, tranport and other fees.


Post# 567756 , Reply# 33   1/8/2012 at 02:04 (4,572 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
To Launderess and nrones

I agree with you.

I did find it frustrating that if I did want to consider Asko or Miele, I'd have to put up with poor service, if I needed it. In theory, if a machine is supposed to be extremely reliable, why would I need it?

It's a hard sell to someone to say, "Oh yeah, this machine costs $1000 more but does the same things and has crappier service and support."

I really hate the designation of "Snob Brand".. because these are legitimate companies which make a legitimate product which do a legitimate thing very well and reliably enough. It's just that they come from Europe that gives them a snob appeal.

It's kind of like buying a Lamborghini because you want to get to work faster... Is it a snob brand? Kinda.. Yes, they're expensive cars but look what they'll do. I seriously doubt I'd be driving to work at 300 km/h in one though. :)

To Nrones:

The problem with engineers thinking they're better than everyone else, is that as soon as you stop paying attention to #2, you will become #2. Overconfidence and ignorance can destroy a company.

Look at Hyundai.. Back in the 1980's, they used to be a joke here in Canada. Cars were coming off the line with bent frames and all kinds of defects. They were known for rusting like nobodies business and didn't last all that long as a result.

Now, they build cars which are considerably reliable, dependable and feature laden. They are a serious competitor to domestic brands here. GM, Ford and Mopar (Chrysler) underestimated them and look at what happened.

Hyundai ate their lunch, that's what!

In a lot of ways, these industries parallel each other.

I think Samsung and LG are becoming serious competitors to American brands. Very serious competitors. If the domestic manufacturers don't smarten up soon and smell the bacon, they will have their lunch eaten for them quicker than they can blink and by then it'll be too late.



Post# 568455 , Reply# 34   1/11/2012 at 09:33 (4,568 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
My toughts on this

pierreandreply4's profile picture
this is my toughts but me i think that they are trying to make some serious compition to whirlpool and my tought is that sure its nice to pay a higher price but the problem is that if service is needed and they do not have in store or the repair truck the needed part for repair in the case of lg or samsung where do they have to order the part if they have to order the part from there european factory how many days will it take before the part arrives in the repair shop and the teck comes to install the new part unless they pay for 24 hours rush delevery to have the part the next day but thats not counting custom that may went to open the package and check the content. If i had to have a service repair done on my washer and the service tech would tell me after evaluating that the cost of the repair woould cost the price of a new washer i would buy a maytag maxima washer dryer set or another whirlpool duet set because in the near future i went to have the dryer stack on top of the washer.

Post# 568459 , Reply# 35   1/11/2012 at 10:22 (4,568 days old) by nrones ()        
Samsung

Qualin,
How many years took Hyndai to "eat lunch"? I have a feeling that all this with Samsung and LG is going too fast. I mean just 4 years ago, Samsung machines were a laugh, that costed 150-180 euros (image) (cheapest on the market), with programmes not resulting to a good wash (frend from school had it, and complained), also lifetime was measured in months. All that lead into fail of 3 representative Samsung offices in Serbia.
Then all of the sudden, Samsung released new (better) products, with so much confidence. I have no experience with their machines, but if they are doing exact same story as they did with mobile phones - that is NO thanks for me.

To be precise - I was Ericsson (SonyEricsson later) user since my first phone. 4-5 years ago I remember me and my friend's Sony Ericssons falling on the floor 10000times, it got only scratchs, sometimes it would strongly land on the floor - again beautiful camera pictures and everything, just got scratches, while my friend's (more of them) who had Samsungs, for the same had dead displays, speakers, flat cable breaking etc.
Years passed, Samsung "built-up" it's reputation, and after 4 SE's I bought a Samsung (newest model then), and just after few months - it got worn out, flimsy, speaker broke down, and for the end it slammed on the floor, and had to visit service because of that. While my friend stuck to SE, who's phone is like new.

This is why I have less confidence in Samsung products. I gave them 1 shot on their "reputation", and they disappointed me as much as they could.
Now when I look at the image, they don't look as bad as they actually were


Post# 568566 , Reply# 36   1/12/2012 at 03:06 (4,568 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
To Nrones

Hey, thanks for the replies everyone.

Maybe there may be a day where there will only be three or four washer/dryer manufacturers left. I'm not looking forward to it.



Post# 568573 , Reply# 37   1/12/2012 at 05:08 (4,568 days old) by nrones ()        
There may be a day

I think it is already reality in someway..

Italian market would be great example:
Rex, Zanussi, Zoppas, AEG = Electrolux
Candy, Hoover, Zerowatt, Iberna, Rosiers = Candy
Indesit, Hotpoint, Ariston, Scholtes = Indesit
Bosch, Siemens, Neff, Gaggenau = BSH
There is more, of course, but these are 4 biggest examples.

So we have 17 names, and 4 manufacturers...

Not to mention fact, that even between those 4 is not rare to see same parts, for example Drain pump is made by independent pump company called Askoll, used in Indesit, Candy, and Electrolux machines, so we have the same drain pump for 13 brands on the market out there.

But isn't it similar in America too? Frigilux, Maypool etc?

Dex



Post# 568626 , Reply# 38   1/12/2012 at 16:27 (4,567 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
One Can Sum Up State Of USA Appliance Market In A Word

launderess's profile picture
Maytag.

When that famous brand was up for grabs aside from the Chinese the other other major interested party was a venture capital company. The former was simply unacceptable to many in government and the American population in general. Whilst the latter most certainly would have meant the Maytag corporation's assets would have been raped and pillaged then what was left of the corpse left to twist in the wind. With only those options on the floor Whirlpool was allowed to become a behemoth by gobbling up it's historical rival.

Strange that Whirlpool should be wailing and moaning about Asian competition. At the time they were seeking government approval of their purchase of Maytag, Whirlpool clearly stated that because of imports from China, Korea and other countries they would *not* become a monopoly and violate anti-trust laws.


Post# 568629 , Reply# 39   1/12/2012 at 16:35 (4,567 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)        
In general yes...

Here for mainstream brands we have

Whirlpool: Whirlpool, Maytag, a bunch of Kenmore stuff.
LG:
Samsung:
Electrolux: Electrolux brand, frigidaire, others?

I don't count Speed Queen , Asko (just installed my new ones last night. Ah! 95C washes :)), Miele - they are niche brands here. Even some of the Euro brands like Asko manufacture their large machines in Asia. (I think LG builds them).

I saw something on the garden web that I thought was very appropriate:

I don't want to check my email on my washing machine but I do want it to be reliable and to clean my clothes!

(She had bought a Miele)



Post# 568631 , Reply# 40   1/12/2012 at 16:37 (4,567 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)        
Laundress..

...are any of Whirlpool's washing machines produced domestically?

AFAIK on their front loaders they are produced in Germany or in Mexico.

The dryers are made in Ohio, at least some of them.


Post# 568635 , Reply# 41   1/12/2012 at 16:47 (4,567 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Hunter

launderess's profile picture
Don't know. Remember hearing something years ago that production of Whirlpool's "smaller" front loader was moving to Mexico and that the larger units were built in Germany but don't quote me on that.



Post# 568701 , Reply# 42   1/13/2012 at 01:50 (4,567 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Doesn't Whirlpool still build the infamous Roper/Estate Top Load machines in the USA?

Post# 568733 , Reply# 43   1/13/2012 at 09:16 (4,566 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
Still looks like it but how long will these roper estate reb

pierreandreply4's profile picture
in my opinion still looks like it but how long will these last on the market wit all the fuss going on with the low rinse fill will last with all the fuss about the low fill rinse me i give these rebadge roper estate whirlpool washer a few months to a year that they will not make the charm of buyers du to the fact of the low rinse fill in my toughs see roper rinse fill thread and for consumers that still went to buy these i think they would be better off trying to find models thjat dates before they switch to low fill rinse 2009 and earlier me in my case i do not went to be stuck having to do another rinse after the main wash just because the washer in the rinse do a low fill well for me after reading more and more it made me think that when my duet go i would be better off with eather another whirlpool duet that must be better today then the 2004 generation 1 set that i have or the maytag maxima set since i eventualy went to stack the dryer on top of the washer.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO pierreandreply4's LINK


Post# 568748 , Reply# 44   1/13/2012 at 10:51 (4,566 days old) by KenmoreGuy64 (Charlotte, NC)        
Late to the game on this thread, but....

kenmoreguy64's profile picture
To answer a couple recent questions, YES, Whirlpool does indeed manufacture washers in the U.S. and NO, not just low end stuff.

Clyde Ohio, the largest source of washers in the country and possibly the world is making the last of the low-end DirectDrive washers, AND the new belt-drive top loaders and Cabrios. THEY ARE ALSO NOW MAKING NEW FRONT LOADERS and lots of them. I believe the smaller Duet Sports are still imported. The vast majority of WP laundry (including their other brands and house names) are all U.S. made.

As to dumping, regardless of whether WP deserves to be dumped on with perceptions of low quality of Duets (never had use for one myself) the business definition of dumping involves unfair cost competition OR purposeful selling below cost or margin in order to strangle competitors.

Though the discussion can go on for hours/days about why consumers buy what, or whether or not a company's products are complete crap or not, dumping refers to a seller offering their product in a market, in large and long-term quantity, at less than its appropriate price in order to unfairly drive others from the market.

This is a difficult case to prove, but when Asian manufacturers, whose workers earn in one year what Americans do in a week or a few weeks, have such lower and different cost structures (there are even much less restrictive laws in some parts of Asia regarding metal prep solvents, paints, and other chemical disposal and storage which greatly affect cost here) it becomes difficult if not impossible for U.S. manufacturers to compete effectively without lowering quality. Quality does not come free, in fact it can often be VERY expensive to maintain.

In my view, we as Americans or even Western world residents outside the U.S. have to think very carefully about our buying decisions. Is the $659 Samsung really worth the price over the $789 WP? Though I don't want to throw around the $130, we cannot deny that the Samsung was made with cheaper labor and labor laws, it was built using parts and supplies that are not regulated by departments such as the EPA and OSHA, etc. and its largest cost is often transportation to market!!! What this boils down to is Westerners expecting to continue to absorb all the benefits we have, but take advantage of lower cost goods made in other parts of the world where such benefits are not available. These benefits won't be here either at some point if we don't wake up.

We have what we have in the western world because we built it ourselves in the 20th century. If we keep bleeding money to other parts of the globe, we drive cracks into the foundation of what used to hold up our economy, which is manufacturing jobs and infrastructure, and we risk our identities, and our lifestyle.

Personally I would never purchase a Samsung anything, nor have I ever owned a foreign car or large appliance. I sometimes wonder about buying certain goods if we are encouraging mediocrity by favoring local or U.S. supplies, but I simply don't believe the alternative is worth even a trial. We can't keep sending our monies off-shore indefinitely without eventually loosing the whole of who we are.

There are societies on this earth who want to take over the western world. We MUST maintain our self-sufficience in order to sustain ourselves and defend. We DO NOT need washers made in Korea.

If WP can prove dumping, I say "more power to them, let the field of competition be fair and level and nothing but, and let the consumer make their choice by what is best, not by what is subsidized".

Gordon


Post# 568753 , Reply# 45   1/13/2012 at 11:07 (4,566 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)        
Gordon

I agree.

The places where I buy out of US I try and buy first world.

It is NOT snobbery, but how can I, in clear conscience, purchase goods that are made with the blood of others in them? Not to mention environmental degredation.

Sometimes, however, there isn't an alternative, mostly in clothing though there ARE still some relatively affordable domestic clothing being made.


Post# 568758 , Reply# 46   1/13/2012 at 11:32 (4,566 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
buy first world

Well said! It resumes my philosophy!

I start with buying local (like fruits and vegetables form the local market)
then buy Italian (appliances, clothing, generic groceries and "services")
then again European and so on.

And I check, for what I can that the product is really made where it's stated and not just assembled or imported and finished/labeled.


Post# 568768 , Reply# 47   1/13/2012 at 12:06 (4,566 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)        
Yes.

I have zero issues with third world countries - or any country - rising and doing better for itself.

Lots of people say 'well if the folks who work in these hell hole factories didn't have these jobs they would have no jobs at all.' But since in most instances the owners of said factories are ones that fled the first world so they could sell products at less money and make a bigger product, I have little sympathy for the business owners.

You can look in most shops and find goods that are made in countries with no or lax environmental laws, bad labor practice, and you might as well see them covered with blood - because it is the blood (injuries, death by accident, premature death) of the workers on them, and the toxins dumped in the environment that just kill and maim more people and other creatures.

I'm a raving capitalist libertarian BUT TO ME despoiling the environment is NOT the way to 'make money' except in the shortest of terms. [To me, the whole 'environmental' movement in too many instances is NOT people who want to save the world, but rather, people who hate humans . But that's another discussion].


Post# 568774 , Reply# 48   1/13/2012 at 12:22 (4,566 days old) by nrones ()        
Asia isn't the only one cheap out there

In Europe here, for example there is big difference between how a worker costs.

So, few years ago Candy stopped producing tumble dryers in UK, and made greenfield investment in Turkey, in which labor costs much less. Still in Turkey, there are all regulations same as in UK, people work 8hours a day, have weekend, no blood, or anything else.. everything pretty similar just for less money.
When I first heared that they are mooving to Turkey, I was disgusted, said that there is NO way I will ever buy it... But then dryers from the new factory came on the market, better built than when they were in UK... What happened? For the same price (being price-competitive seems to be most important) instead of investing in people, they gave more money in higher quality parts (and kept some in their pocket too).

So, those international companies got the deal of the century - better for less, almost too good to be true.. They just have to leave their "mother" country.

I don't know if they should be judged, and I don't know how to fight against that (cause there is more and more...)

What do you think?

Dex


Post# 568780 , Reply# 49   1/13/2012 at 13:00 (4,566 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)        
Of course.

Asia isn't the only cheap labor destination; lots of South America and Africa are, too.

It is a tough one. If you make (say) appliances and want to sell them in your home market AND in lower cost ones, it's a tough thing to decide what to do.

Of course, given that it is looking more and more likely the world is lurching toward a major war (think '1935' at this point) it'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out won't it?


Post# 568894 , Reply# 50   1/14/2012 at 03:46 (4,566 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

That's just it.. When you have workers at Foxconn in China threatening mass suicide because of poor working conditions, how can anyone in good conscience buy something made from that factory?

If I see something which is built with higher quality parts and labour and it is superior to the competition when it comes to warranty, construction, durability, effectiveness and so forth, I'll buy it if it costs more... because I know I won't have to buy it again.

If it happens to be built in the States, I'd rather buy that because it'll have more supportability and better warranty service. Personally, I'd prefer to buy a Canadian built washer, but that's just me. :)

If it does mean paying more, I'll pay more... but I know I'll be getting service and supportability for that extra cash.





Post# 568940 , Reply# 51   1/14/2012 at 10:07 (4,565 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)        
you ARE from Canada so that makes sense :)

People talk about protecting national interests as though it were something terrible. "Oh you're just a jingoist!" "Oh, you're just a nationalist!"

My country - all our nations - are of no help to its citizens or to each other if they aren't strong and healthy. Look at the USA: it has gutted its industrial base, has been living on capital consumption for years, now it is the largest debtor nation with A NATIONAL BUDGET DEFICIT HALF THE SIZE OF THE GERMANY ECONOMY.

That is insane. It is no help to the USA or to the world to allow this to happen, and we only have ourselves to blame.

Oh, there is a lot of greed by MBAs,no doubt. But ultimately because there is no viable alternatives to the powers that be (please, the Democrat and Republican parties are so similar as to be one party), the idea of business value has moved from creating wealth and shareholder value only to shareholder value (and at that, only preferred stock holders NOT common stock). But enough of that rant.

There is nothing wrong with patriotism and national pride. One thing *I* am proud of in the USA is that, as a nation, we don't hide our problems, nor do we deny they exist . This makes most of the rest of the advanced world (particularly some European countries) laugh at us, but, heck, we are willing to examine ourselves and make things better as we can. We have a long way to go. But we are trying!


Post# 568951 , Reply# 52   1/14/2012 at 11:05 (4,565 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture

Those who watch the Asian manufacturing sectors have begun to notice trends of factories moving to emerging markets like those just springing up in Africa.  Recently, the largest shoe maker in the world announced that they are moving from Guangdong, China to Africa.  Cheaper labor and availability of resources will draw the factories just as they once did in Thailand, China and elsewhere.  The interesting thing to see is that as Chinese economic trends move from a manufacturing baseline to a more diverse model with a base in consumption, workers who have literally been lifted out of subsistence level existence will demand more and better.  The recent suicide threat - for better pay -  in China worked because of the ancient values of honor and "saving face" as we like to call it.  In a country of 1.3 billion people, getting attention in the state-run media isn't easy.  Drama sells, just like everywhere else in the world.   Curious about the much reported suicides at Foxconn in 2010, I did some further reading and at the factory in Shenzhen, nearly 400,000 people are employed and the suicide rates are no higher there than in a normal U.S. city of similar size.  At the recent Wuhan factory protest/threat, the company offered all owed pay and benefits to those who wished to resign and leave.  Only a small percentage left, the rest went back to work.  They largely got what they demanded of the company and it's fascinating to see the workers finding their voice, just as those in the U.S. and Europe did in our industrial revolution.

 

Maytag sourced some models of Neptune front-load washers from Samsung when the Korean based company was just emerging into the U.S. market.  Maytag agreed to provide service for Samsung branded products which Whirlpool inherited with their acquisition of Maytag.  By the time this agreement ran it's course, Samsung had become one of the top selling brands and this interim arrangement gave them the time to develop their own networks.  

General Electric sourced their front-load washers from the Little Swan Washing Machine Company, and still do.  Little Swan is a subsidiary of Midea, Corp.  (Chinese company - no relation to Samsung or LG) the worlds third (or fourth) largest appliance maker.  GE saw the need to be competitive in the booming front-load washer market so they naturally looked to imports to fill the gap.  Asko has done this as well with their large-sized laundry products. 


It's important to understand that although Whirlpool is a U.S. based company,  imports must be a part of the manufacturing equation in order to remain competitive on the world stage.  All of the brands; U.S., European, Asian all source parts from Asia, Mexico, etc.   Pull the control board out of any washer, dryer, dishwasher and look at the country of origin.  Motor manufacturing is almost entirely dominated by Chinese companies.  You need a motor for a new washer design?  The odds are more than 85% that the motor will be made in Asia.  Sourcing parts from many factories all over the globe has it's benefits but also it's costs.  If one factory assembles the control boards, where are all the component parts made?  In the next room or building?  Not a chance.  They're made by many factories all over the globe sourced by the assembler to the specs given.   Your KitchenAid dishwasher bursts into flames during the main wash, it can take many hours of forensic work to determine the offending component on the board and many more hours to trace the origin of that particular component and what went wrong in it's production.  From a cost-analysis standpoint, you can put out that fire and move forward but we will see these types of incidents and problems over and over.  The truth is we always have.  WCI made Skinny-Mini washer/dryer units had reports of fires caused by over-sudsing in the washer.  Suds sloshed down into the cabinet and into the motor.   Maytag dishwashers, not all that long ago, had leaky rinse-aid dispensers that caused fires in the wiring. Hobart KitchenAid dishwashers were notorious for leaky detergent dispensers that would drip onto the bi-metal springs and short, causing a melt-down hot enough to burn holes in the metal panel of the door.    Bad welds on drums of washing machines caused them to fly apart in spin and destroy the entire machine and possibly the rooms they were located in.  Broken door glass reports in front-load washers.  And the beat goes on...

 

Hunter is correct in that we are trying.  Jon (jetcone) has been saying for years that though the trend is moving manufacturing offshore, our resurgence is coming and we'll once again be at the top.  Perhaps not in appliance manufacturing, that trend looks to be solidly set in a disposable mentality, at least for now.

 

 


Post# 569040 , Reply# 53   1/14/2012 at 17:40 (4,565 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I believe that the factors which will return some manufacturing to the USA will be increasing fuel costs to transport stuff made off shore to our domestic market and, as has been mentioned, the rising labor costs in countries where "our" corporations moved production to save money. They are not really our corporations because they have no loyalty to our country or our people: jobs moved, factories shut, don't want to pay taxes, end of story. Maybe if the new health care plan reduces a corporation's cost for employee health care, workers from the United States will be seen as less of a liability to their employers. The various "Free Trade" laws passed by our government stacked the cards against US workers. I think that some people in power are beginning to see that if our workers don't have jobs with incomes comparable to the ones they lost, they won't be able to participate in our economy and it will not get better. For too long, we have been sucking on the straw and have not thought about who was going to pour more drink in the glass or even if we had any for replacement. The noises from the bottom of the glass are getting too loud to ignore.

Post# 569139 , Reply# 54   1/15/2012 at 04:24 (4,565 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

I'll just leave this here...

Would you pay $1100 for an iPad 2? If it were manufactured in the US, you would.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO qualin's LINK


Post# 569475 , Reply# 55   1/16/2012 at 07:53 (4,563 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Greg makes a good point

jetcone's profile picture

no, many good points. But the truth is when manufacturing a commodity the lower labor market will win. America being a pioneer founded country needs to return to her roots today. Industry and Government has taken the easy way out for the last 40 years and the results are showing today.

 The future of Earth and humanity lies out beyond our world, the cradle is full of people and the airable land is shrinking. America has always led in the advanced technologies partly due to our shared values of education and pioneering. America should be focused on what it does best, pioneering space exploration. Why? For two reasons: 1) Even if we dont' succeed in living out there (which I doubt ) we will along the way develop advanced technologies which will give us an edge in application and manufacturing.

 In short the "global economy" has forced us into the position that we need to continually manufacture products that are not commodities for the global economy. Products and services that are called "toll bridge" businesses. Toll bridge business make things that you can get no where else and so they can charge a premium and they must manufacture in the most advanced places.

 An ipad is a commodity.


Post# 569476 , Reply# 56   1/16/2012 at 08:03 (4,563 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Now what would be the end game

jetcone's profile picture

is this: Ford has learned the hard way, but is starting to accede its competitors. It as mostly robotized its Rouge River Plant.

 If America develops advanced robotics, then if you were to build a completely robotic manufacturing plant here for washing machines, you would take the local market. Because a robot is cheaper than any labor force. And so the determining cost in a product would the location of natural resources and the cost of shipping that product to market. Game Point!

 

 


Post# 569619 , Reply# 57   1/17/2012 at 03:13 (4,563 days old) by qualin (Canada)        
To Jetcone

Unforutnately, White goods are a commodity. Washers, Dryers, Fridges, Stoves and Dishwashers... It's only a matter of time before GE, Whirlpool and WCI are forced to move all of their manufacturing to someplace low cost, like China or Africa.

The only thing stopping them I think are stiff tariffs. That's why the Japanese are building vehicles in North America, but designing them in Japan. Ford is running into this as well, at least to some degree, with their European Imports.

When you look at the technology which goes into Speed Queen Top Loaders, they're absolutely ancient in comparison to what everyone else is cranking out. Now, Quality is a whole different story. Sometimes older technology "Just works". It also keeps the costs down and the quality high too.

However, Mechanical vs Electronic stuff is a whole other thread.


Post# 569650 , Reply# 58   1/17/2012 at 08:15 (4,562 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
I agree

jetcone's profile picture

Sometimes you just can't reinvent the wheel! 

But mechanical vs electronic is a WHOLE other thread!! 


Post# 569653 , Reply# 59   1/17/2012 at 09:09 (4,562 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
my toughs on this

pierreandreply4's profile picture
I do not know why but my toughts are and i agree that mechanic vs electronique is another thread but i have a feeling that if we went washers that are going to last a lot more than just 10 years there will be a high demand for refurbish second hand washer from use appliance stores and sometime i wonder why not build the washers of today but with the tech and qualaty that washers had during the 1950 to 2000? hum sometime i wonder and after reading this thread my toughts is making me think that sometime for my next daily driver washer dryer that i should buy second hand refurbish washer dryer set kind of likr the 19 70 inglis washer model with dial skirt.


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