Thread Number: 40342
New energy efficiency standards for washers and dishwashers announced |
[Down to Last] |
Post# 597130   5/17/2012 at 18:37 (4,361 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
This is from the Department of Energy website, dated May 16. It sounds bad. Water consumption on clothes washers will go down 35% -- that's right, thirty-five percent -- by 2015. Dishwashers will have water consumption reduced 20% starting in 2013.
All while maintaining performance, of course.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO Supersuds's LINK |
|
Post# 597135 , Reply# 1   5/17/2012 at 18:48 (4,361 days old) by StrongEnough78 (California)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 597138 , Reply# 2   5/17/2012 at 18:52 (4,361 days old) by DirectDriveDave ()   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
These need to go away, badly. |
Post# 597145 , Reply# 4   5/17/2012 at 19:19 (4,361 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 597147 , Reply# 5   5/17/2012 at 19:22 (4,361 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 597186 , Reply# 7   5/17/2012 at 20:40 (4,361 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
HE = High Epidemy washers |
Post# 597196 , Reply# 8   5/17/2012 at 21:23 (4,361 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
|
Post# 597204 , Reply# 9   5/17/2012 at 21:49 (4,361 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Nobody can tell you what the formulations of detergents will do to the biospheres.... |
Post# 597208 , Reply# 11   5/17/2012 at 22:08 (4,361 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 597209 , Reply# 12   5/17/2012 at 22:08 (4,361 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Yes, how are they gonna make front loaders use even less water? I suppose the term "Steam Washer" will get a whole new meaning! Maybe all washers will then only spray a fine mist of water through (or more likely on) the clothing as part of the rinse cycle - like some LGs already do:
CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK |
Post# 597225 , Reply# 14   5/17/2012 at 23:29 (4,361 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Can I just breathe on my t-shirts and call them clean? This is a load of you-know-what. A bunch of dag-flabbed spreadsheet bureaucrats without the slightest inkling of the parameters they're manipulating.
Know what happens when you put 2 gallons of water in a toploader and call it a rinse? It saves 35c worth of water a year, doesn't rinse, and destroys clothes. DUH! But then "DUH" is about the kindest thing one can say about government at any time and particularly now. What next, toilets that flush with air? S-h-h-h-h, don't let them hear us say that, they'll do it. They've already made showers that don't shower and faucets that don't faucet. I'm glad I'm old and won't have to endure much more of this nonsense. |
Post# 597233 , Reply# 15   5/17/2012 at 23:59 (4,361 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
7. Performance Metric
Ding! I think we've passed that point with dishwashers, if you skim over the high points of the dishwasher DOE Direct Final Rule the future doesn't look too bright for dishwashing... |
Post# 597234 , Reply# 16   5/18/2012 at 00:18 (4,361 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
Better stock up on VINTAGE machines---these new standards HAVE TO GO--SCRAP this nonsense!!Can we please have a CHOICE as to what type of machine to buy?????Same with other things----potties and light bulbs.The DOE NEEDS TO GO!!!! |
Post# 597237 , Reply# 17   5/18/2012 at 01:45 (4,361 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
This is 2012, and I've seen some of the latest front load washers and how little water they use........And to think that in 2015, that will seem like a lot of water.
No different than my Duet from 2005. In 2005, I thought it was ridiculous. Now, looking at the later machines, I feel like my Duet is a swimming pool. |
Post# 597242 , Reply# 18   5/18/2012 at 02:02 (4,361 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 597244 , Reply# 19   5/18/2012 at 02:25 (4,361 days old) by qualin (Canada)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Wow... that's all I can say. Next thing you know, Americans will be smuggling Canadian washing machines over the border.... There is already a grey market for Canadian toilets... and for that very reason. Do you wash or do you lavage? :) |
Post# 597246 , Reply# 20   5/18/2012 at 02:36 (4,361 days old) by mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Bed bugs for days!!!! |
Post# 597279 , Reply# 23   5/18/2012 at 08:22 (4,361 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
It's baffling to me why there is this race to the bottom. It's hardly the government alone, the manufacturers (P&G is mentioned numerous times as well) are the driving force behind the engineering and design of these machines and appear from the text of the DOE reports to be materially involved in the formation of and cooperation with the new standards. Much space in the report is given to explaining the technological development and dark magic used to reach these standards by manufacturers who are agreeing that it can be done. Cooler washing temps in both clothes and dish washing operations among other mechanical feats - the LG spray washing & rinsing, more food filters in dishwashers, etc. are being utilized to reach these standards. Particularly interesting is the incorporation of the washer-cleaning cycles into the energy and resource standards. Mold, mildew and odors are an obvious problem that they've gone from denying to embracing and attempting to solve with splashy cleaning programs and chemicals. In energy and resource use calculations will include provisions for running the "recommended" washer cleaning cycle once each month. I haven't reached the life-span section of clothes washers, but for dishwashers the average life-span is roughly 15 years. Uh huh. |
Post# 597281 , Reply# 24   5/18/2012 at 08:43 (4,361 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 597287 , Reply# 25   5/18/2012 at 09:31 (4,361 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 597292 , Reply# 27   5/18/2012 at 09:52 (4,361 days old) by mysteryclock (Franklin, TN)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Let me take a step back and play Devil's Advocate here with a question - how do these NEW standards compare with the existing UK/EU requirements and ratings? Is the US "leading" here in terms of low energy and water use still catching up (but not there yet?)
If we're not way out in front then I have a problem with the dire assessments of US machines future performance. Isn't it the common wisdom that most current EU machines will perform better than most US FLs, both in wash and rinse performance as well as energy use? If these same machines are ahead of us on lower water and energy use, then how is that possible, logically?? |
Post# 597293 , Reply# 28   5/18/2012 at 09:56 (4,361 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Here is a link to some information about tax incentives. I don't know if it still applies but I would not be surprised if they do. CLICK HERE TO GO TO jerrod6's LINK |
Post# 597308 , Reply# 29   5/18/2012 at 12:30 (4,361 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
2    
|
Post# 597376 , Reply# 34   5/18/2012 at 18:15 (4,360 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 597378 , Reply# 35   5/18/2012 at 18:23 (4,360 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Sorry to break it to you but the EU started it as long back as the 90`s, manufacturers drastically reduced water consumption ( machines labelled RainWave etc)and the machines we end up with now have the best energy ratings coupled with best use of detergent, time & electricity...
It appears that the US practices when too far to quick with OTT reduction of water levels, if they had kept the levels to ours pre 90`s for starters then that would have been good, (still a lot less than the TL)... I would say machines at the moment are probably the best they can be without something giving, the detergents work great, and the vast selection of machines do more than average job, the question would be the reliability of certain brands models etc.. but like anything you can always trade up for better!! |
Post# 597397 , Reply# 37   5/18/2012 at 19:24 (4,360 days old) by mfduffy ()   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
One consumer group's take. CLICK HERE TO GO TO mfduffy's LINK |
Post# 597424 , Reply# 39   5/18/2012 at 22:40 (4,360 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
I thought that they already were. Many dishwashers have a half load option and those with soil sensor technology supposedly adjust the amount of water and washing time according to turbidity. |
Post# 597433 , Reply# 41   5/18/2012 at 23:51 (4,360 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 597613 , Reply# 44   5/19/2012 at 20:44 (4,359 days old) by twinniefan (Sydney Australia)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Thank goodness I still have the Haier twinnie stored away in the garage in case we end up with with machines which use 1 tablespoon of water to wash in and if they ever became mandatory to have.
Actually while thinking of it, would any U.S. manufacturers of machines ever consider mass producing twin tubs over there?,sold on the benefit of water saving by reusing wash water for multiple loads and spinning rinse water in the wash tub for any additional loads. Regards, Steve. |
Post# 597634 , Reply# 45   5/19/2012 at 22:02 (4,359 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
...we're not in the US.
Our governments have taken a completely different approach to water usage - not 'legislating' and rather letting the consumer decide what they want. Certainly, there has been financial encouragement with rebates to the consumer for purchasing efficient appliances, but these are not uniform across the country and if an individual wants to buy an appliance that uses more water/energy, they still can. This post was last edited 05/20/2012 at 02:51 |
Post# 597829 , Reply# 49   5/20/2012 at 17:31 (4,358 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
I can totally see how American dishwashers could be more energy and water: just forget about the US concept and get decent European technology - period!
Let have a look at what manual say: current top-of-the-line Whirlpool dishwasher: max cycle time with options selected 4:40 hrs. Huh? Total cycle time on our Euro Bosch with options selected: more than two hours less. Water consumption: current top-of-the-line Kenmore dishwasher uses 26 liters / 6.8 gal on Normal with heavy soil sensed. Modern European units get away with 10 liters / 2.6 gal less. And no, the Kenmore still lists the typical cycle time as around two hours - just like a Euro dishwasher. Speed: said touch-screen-controlled Kenmore has a One-Hour-Wash cycle. Takes 60 minutes without drying and *just* guzzles 30 liters / 7.9 gal. Again, our 6 years old Bosch does the job in 40 minutes using two thirds less water and even dries the dishes. Even among modern Euro dishwashers there are vast differences. Example: a Whirlpool unit versus a Bosch/Siemens. Both can be had for 650 Euros. So how did both units fare when tested by our consumer magazine? The Whirlpool used more energy, water and even time than the Bosch to complete the cycle and dishes weren't completely clean. The Bosch took 11 liters, .88 kWh and 150 minutes to perfectly wash ever single piece. The WP wash also very noisy at over 50 dB. Bottom line: it seems TOL American dishwashers - while they surely can clean dishes perfectly - seem to be as efficient as BOL European units. Oh, and what about that line in Kenmore/KitchenAid manuals: Hi Temp raises the water temp from 105F to 120F. Geez, our Bosch washes hotter than that on ECO. Alex |
Post# 597857 , Reply# 50   5/20/2012 at 20:41 (4,358 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
I went to the Bosch USA appliance site and their new TOL series dishwasher (called 800 something-or-other) uses only 2.2 gallons of water for a normal cycle. The machine lists for $1999. Sound level of 39 decibels. My LG is 45 decibels and it's really quiet! There's actually a very big audible difference between 39 and 45 decibels. That Bosch must be close to absolute silence. |
Post# 597875 , Reply# 51   5/20/2012 at 23:06 (4,358 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|
Post# 598111 , Reply# 54   5/21/2012 at 23:25 (4,357 days old) by Jetawayjuan (Michigan/Phoenix)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Stop screwing with washers and dishwashers and mess around with ac units!!! |
Post# 598361 , Reply# 56   5/23/2012 at 00:55 (4,356 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
and for newer HVAC units compressor and blower motors are used with VFD's to control the speed and capacity of the compressors and fans,thus using less power. |
Post# 598362 , Reply# 57   5/23/2012 at 01:24 (4,356 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
6 years ago I "invented" a variable-capacity cooling system, eliminating expansion valves and implementing efficient 3-phase inverter motors. IOW a system that would scale itself to whatever conditions it encountered, using the least possible energy.
Also solving predictable problems like high-current electronics operated outdoors in summer, with a sealed suction manifold heatsink keeping condensation out. I wrote it up as a patent abstract and think I still have it in MS Word if anyone wants to see. What I DIDN'T have was a quarter-million dollars to build and refine prototypes and pay patent lawyers. |
Post# 598481 , Reply# 59   5/23/2012 at 13:52 (4,355 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Arbilab did you ever submit your write up to the patent office? If so you might not have even had to build anything. Once someone tried to use any of your ideas they would come up against your patent....nothing prevents you from letting them use it .....at a cost you negotiate. |
Post# 598642 , Reply# 60   5/24/2012 at 08:32 (4,355 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
"modern science is very much about profit, business and politics and objectivity in science is moot"
Sorry, but that's an absurd statement, with absolutely no basis in fact. Au contraire, politicians and businesses attempt to use science for their own corrupt and selfish ends. It's obvious that you have no concept whatever of the use of Scientific Method in academic Peer Reviewed research based on double-blind randomized controlled experimentation. I still want to see the data before making judgement, not one based on anecdotal observation. |
Post# 598732 , Reply# 61   5/24/2012 at 16:47 (4,354 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Well as much as one hates to admit it, our new electronic controlled Friedrich "Wallmastet" (built 2008) seems to do a better job of cooling versus the older (1988) unit that died. It certianly is more quiet and that is a blessing. One also likes that the fan is cycled on/off with the compressor
One finds the "smart fan" option where the fan speed is electronically controlled to match cooling capacity required works quite well. Mind you it's barely been above 70F here and have had the unit on for short periods to deal with the constant damp weather we've been having. |
Post# 598743 , Reply# 62   5/24/2012 at 17:35 (4,354 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Friedrich has featured the auto-fan option (Money Saver® button)for many years, although not on all models, and electronic controls aren't a necessity to allow the feature. HUGE-capacity, 36,000 BTU, through-the-wall cool/heat units were in several stand-alone classroom buildings at my school dating to the 1970s had auto-fan. A few teachers used it, most didn't. Grandmother has a 16K btu heat/cool unit with analog controls and auto-fan option (selected by me at the time of purchase). Interestingly, the auto-fan setting on Friedrich units typically maintains a more consistent temperature than continuous fan. They have an anticipator heater on the thermostat bulb to moderate the temperature swing, which I believe is activated for auto-fan and deactivated for continuous fan. |
Post# 598784 , Reply# 63   5/24/2012 at 19:58 (4,354 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Really wanted to replace our dead unit with another mechanical controlled version, but they hard to find new and the older ones for sale locally wanted nearly what we paid for our NIB (about $350).
It really is a roll of the dice buying an used AC around here. Many persons living in NYC apartments are transplants that aren't used to the street noise. Thus they close their windows and run the AC almost all year long when possible. That and or they run the units even when temps are only say 70F to 75F because the weather is humid and their apartment feels clamy. Our AC repairman told us it's not a good idea to run the AC when outdoor temps are "that low" as it's hard on the compressor. Better to purchase a fan (we have a large one) and use it to move air instead. |
Post# 598808 , Reply# 64   5/24/2012 at 23:01 (4,354 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
I did not submit it. I couldn't afford to have it put into submissible form by a lawyer or have prior art researched. Did get as far as what that would cost, $7000 IIRC.
Variable speed obviously wasn't an "invention" and neither was single -> 3-phase inversion. There was already a chip to do it on the market. The novel part was combining those to eliminate the expansion valve. They're wasteful and laggy. Even if I had submitted and succeeded in registering it, it would cost at least $50,000 per event to pursue infringements. I do have one lawyer friend but he's in family law in Kona Hawaii. |
Post# 1083027 , Reply# 65   7/29/2020 at 23:21 (1,366 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
Are they serious? Nothing has changed. Now speed queen is ruined. |
Post# 1083046 , Reply# 66   7/30/2020 at 05:09 (1,366 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
     
|