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Thread Number: 54668
Trouble in refrigerator paradise... |
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| Post# 770544 , Reply# 1 7/13/2014 at 12:10 (3,576 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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I think... And Im NO refrigeration expert,,But its probably the defrost timer... | ||
| Post# 770545 , Reply# 2 7/13/2014 at 12:11 (3,576 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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And maybe.. Does the defrost heater have a limiting thermostat??? if it does, maybe its cutting off the heater too soon. | ||
| Post# 770546 , Reply# 3 7/13/2014 at 12:14 (3,576 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA) | ||
Hi, Fred. Still happier than all out for you two!
It does appear that you have a defrost system malfunction. This can be traced down to three areas. One is that you have a defrost heater quitting which is not likely as they are like light bulbs. Either they're open or not. Second is the defrost terminator bimetal thermostat which interrupts power to the heater when the evaporator is sufficiently thawed and also prevents activation of the element when the evap is already warm avoiding a heater runaway. This piece can get flaky over time and if jiggled (say during manually thawing a evaporator) might work again for a while. Third on the 'most likely' list is the defrost timer. A clock like timer that switches from cooling mode to defrost mode and back again. They also get tired after a few millennia in service and can stick. Turning this control to manually activate the defrost cycle can cause it to free up and work again for a while. I replace bimetals and timers frequently. Heaters not so much. The schematic should be glued to the back of the cabinet, if I remember Frigidaire SOP, so you can ohm the heater circuit out from the timer when the evaporator is cold or iced up. If open, you have a bad heater, bimetal or wiring. If you have good continuity then my money would be on the timer. Hope this helps, guys. That's a beautiful refrigerator ! RCD | ||
| Post# 770565 , Reply# 4 7/13/2014 at 14:38 (3,576 days old) by dynaflow (rockingham nc) | ||
Fred | ||
| Post# 770566 , Reply# 5 7/13/2014 at 14:44 (3,576 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
Fred, it's hard to tell anything without seeing it but first, is it running continuously except for the two daily defrost periods. If it does, I suggest that you run it without food for a while and then remove the freezer floor and see what's happening. Look at the frost pattern on the evaporator, it should be uniform. If it has the original defrost timer, you can advance it to the defrost cycle with a screwdriver inserted in the small slot that extends from it.
If the temperature around the defrost termination thermostat doesn't drop much below 32 degrees, it shouldn't even reset and should remain open and the heaters won't heat. And the compressor will kick in immediately after. I'm writing on my phone, I'll write more when I'm back home. | ||
Post# 770576 , Reply# 6 7/13/2014 at 15:18 (3,576 days old) by goatfarmer  (South Bend, home of Champions) |
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| Post# 770641 , Reply# 8 7/13/2014 at 19:48 (3,576 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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I also Knew of several earlier Frigidaires that overheated because of the limiter malfunctioning, melting the plastic in the freezer section, Mark Harman had a 62 that did this, as did the one my Aunt had. | ||
| Post# 770651 , Reply# 9 7/13/2014 at 20:21 (3,576 days old) by epixstar128 (toledo) | ||
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I would just change tge defrost timer at this point | ||
| Post# 770673 , Reply# 11 7/13/2014 at 21:31 (3,576 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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Carmine, is it you who also posts on Curbside Classics? If it's you, I really enjoy reading your posts over there! I knew I had seen this name somewhere but I couldn't remember where!
Fred,
I just read your post again (I was quite busy when I read it earlier on my phone and missed some things you said).
Have you looked at the service manual? (I have already sent a scan of mine to Robert but I think he already had it!).
Have you tested the resistance of the drain heater and the defrost heater to see if they still work? You can test them from the connectors located behind the left plastic trim in the refrigerator section between the cabinet and interior porcelain liner (see the pics 1 and 2, you have clearer and refer to your manual for clearer illustrations). They are both connected in series so if either fails, you get no defrost... But they can be tested separately from the connectors on the left (I think there's no illustration for the FPD-14B-64 but it must be similar to the FPI-14B-64 and FPI-16B-64 like the one I have.)
When you defrost it (just like you did by turning the shaft on the defrost timer manually), you can see the frost on the evaporator melt without removing the freezer floor if you look through the air intake grille in the plastic trim with a flashlight. Look at the holes at the left of the grille (not the first two that are fake but the first and second one that are opened picture 3), you should see the evaporator through them. On my 1961 and 1963 refrigerators, the freezer floor isn't insulated so you can feel the heat (feels more than just a bit warm!) from the defrost elements when it's energized (picture 4 shows my FPI-16B-63 refrigerator). On my 1964, there's a thin layer of foam insulation under the freezer floor so you don't feel it as much. Since the 14 cu-ft 1964 models are quite similar to the 1963, I can't tell if the floor is insulated or not on yours but since you removed it, you should know it.
Last year, I had to replace the defrost heater in my FPI-16B-64 because I'd get shocks from the refrigerator if I touched the chrome trim on my range next to it! The cabinets of 1964 refrigerators are still not grounded and the heater was shorted to the ground (picture 5). It was still working so I never had defrost issues with it. The heater that I used to replace it (picture 6) was much shorter but it works just fine. I couldn't find the part number for it but it was in a lot of parts that I bought from a Frigidaire service center that closed a few years ago. Apparently, they could still get that part but I wasn't able to find it.
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Post# 770733 , Reply# 15 7/14/2014 at 06:01 (3,576 days old) by retro-man (- boston,ma) |
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This looks and sounds like the same problem Chuck and Rich had in mass. I seem to remember it was the timer for the defroster was bad. They finally found one changed it out and all seems to be working just fine now. Jon | ||
| Post# 771731 , Reply# 18 7/18/2014 at 17:40 (3,571 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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Fred, did you or Robert find what's wrong with your fridge?
Here are two styles that are similar to the defrost heaters used in our refrigerators. As I said earlier, they are much shorter than the original ones but they have similar wattage.
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Post# 771741 , Reply# 19 7/18/2014 at 19:26 (3,571 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Non Defrosting Frigidaire Refrigerator
Hi Guys
As Drew mentioned it is either the defrost limit thromostat or more likely the timer. When the drain heaters go bad in this style FD the frost pattern is different and the whole freezer floor swells up. It is NOT low freon, A Bad Compressor or a sealed system problem. Let me know if you have any problems finding the needed replacement parts as I probably have what you need. John L. | ||
| Post# 771881 , Reply# 23 7/19/2014 at 11:17 (3,570 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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EDIT: I took so much time posting this and modifying a picture on Photoshop that I didn't see your two last posts!
I hope it works!
OK, I supposed that you jumped the terminals that are connected to those of the hi-limit thermostat, you didn't just disconnect it. When this thermostat is open (once the temperature reached the high limit or before it has reached the low temperature to set it back to "closed" or if it's just defective), the heaters stop heating.
The system Frigidaire used is a bit confusing because of the 5th wire that goes to the defrost timer (most systems use only 4) that allows the compressor to restart before the 32 minutes of the defrost cycle is completed. To do so, the current still passes through the defrost heaters (drain and evaporator) to energize a relay in the defrost timer that allows the compressor to restart immediately after the defrost hi limit thermostat has opened. In this condition, there's not enough current passing through the heaters to make them heat.
That means, if the high limit thermostat is open or disconnected, the compressor should still work during the defrost cycle. If the compressor doesn't restart immediately when the defrost hi-limit thermostat is open or removed, that means that either the relay in the defrost timer is defective or that one of the heaters is bad.
To test the heaters without damaging the wires in the freezer, you can have access to the connectors in the refrigerator section. You need to remove the left plastic trim between the cabinet and interior liner and the wires that go to both the drain heater and the defrost heater can be tested for continuity from there. Refer to the second page I posted here. On this one, I colored the wires for the drain heater in blue and for the defrost heater in green. These aren't the real colors but it helps to see where they connect. Your fridge is a Deluxe but the wiring should be very similar (I think the main differences in the wiring is the lack of a lamp and switch in the freezer and the lack of a butter conditioner!). | ||
| Post# 771882 , Reply# 24 7/19/2014 at 11:35 (3,570 days old) by HooverWheelAway () | ||
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Thanks for the effort Phil! If nothing else, it's documented for the next person who may have this problem! :-) | ||
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Post# 771884 , Reply# 25 7/19/2014 at 11:52 (3,570 days old) by Unimatic1140 (Minneapolis) |
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That means, if the high limit thermostat is open or disconnected, the compressor should still work during the defrost cycle. If the compressor doesn't restart immediately when the defrost hi-limit thermostat is open or removed, that means that either the relay in the defrost timer is defective or that one of the heaters is bad.
Neither actually Phil in this situation, the replacement timer that is in there does not contain a lead for the the 5th wire (green), so the timer that is in there does not support that feature. Doesn't really matter, its a nice to have feature but not necessary for proper operation, at least it ran fine for 10 years without that. | ||
| Post# 771887 , Reply# 26 7/19/2014 at 12:08 (3,570 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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Robert, do you know what kind of defrost timer was used for your fridge? Most of the time, they just install timers that defrost 4 times per day instead of two. And since they also lack the feature that allows the compressor to restart after the hi-limit thermostat cuts-off, it takes more time before the temperature drops back in the freezer.
I had a fridge that had the wrong type defrost timer installed. I replaced it with the original type and it's much better like that! It uses less energy, there are less temperature variations in the freezer and less strain on both the refrigerating and defrost systems with just two defrosts per day.
This is the replacement timer that used to be in my fridge... The main reason why I replaced it is because it was getting noisy I found other advantages in using the original type.
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Post# 771909 , Reply# 27 7/19/2014 at 15:08 (3,570 days old) by Unimatic1140 (Minneapolis) |
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Robert, do you know what kind of defrost timer was used for your fridge?
It is a Frigidaire replacement. It only runs the defrost cycle for about 15 minutes, not for 32 as the original was designed and it does it two times per day. I do have a used original that I tested and it seems to work fine. We can try that one and see if we notice any difference in performance. | ||
| Post# 771914 , Reply# 28 7/19/2014 at 15:32 (3,570 days old) by redcarpetdrew (Fairfield, CA) | ||
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Yay for happy refrigerators! | ||
| Post# 771939 , Reply# 29 7/19/2014 at 18:13 (3,570 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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If it defrosts twice a day, it's OK. 15 minutes can be a bit short however. Usually, that's about the time it takes with the original 12 hour / 32 minutes timers as the compressor restarts as soon as the hi-limit thermostat opens but if the system needs more time to defrost it could extent to 32 minutes. As these fridges get older, they sometimes have wet foam insulation below their evaporator and that can increase the time needed to trip the defrost thermostat. Probably not that much on 1964 models because their thermostat isn't sitting on the freezer floor like it was on some previous models. Many replacement defrost timers are set to defrost for 21 minutes every 6 hours. Some are set for 30 minutes every 8 hours. If you want to replace your defrost timer with the orogonal type, replacements with 5 terminals often show on eBay for cheap. | ||
| Post# 778964 , Reply# 31 8/23/2014 at 22:53 (3,535 days old) by A440 () | ||
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Great News! I know you guy's are happy! | ||
| Post# 778970 , Reply# 32 8/23/2014 at 23:32 (3,535 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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That's great!
Did you keep the aftermarket defrost timer or did you replace it? I assume you replaced it as it defrosts twice a day! Now that you don't have issues with your defrost system, you can also do another test if you want: First, see how cold the freezer and refrigerator sections are. At the actual warmest setting of the cold control, the temperature in the freezer should stay above 0 degrees F. If the freezer is already near or at 0 degrees, then your cold control is probably a bit off as the temperature should be too warm in the freezer at this setting. As long as its working fine like that, you could leave it like that! But the refrigerating system should be able to drop the temperature in the freezer much below 0 degrees too. If the temperature in the freezer is already at -5 degrees F at the warmest setting of the cold control, you don't want to move it to a colder position as the compressor probably won't cycle off. If it's already colder than that at the warmest setting, it's too cold! But if the temperature is at the expected 5 or 10 degrees F, you should move the control to a slightly colder setting. In that situation: Turn the cold control to a colder setting to see if the compressor still cycles on and off and monitor the temperature in the freezer. Do it gradually and wait for at least a day each time you move the control to monitor the changes. If everything is fine with the refrigerating system and the insulation, the compressor will still cycle on and off (but with slightly longer "on" times) and the temperature in the freezer should drop much below 0 degrees F once the setting is too cold. If there's a problem, the temperature probably won't drop at or much lower than 0 degrees in the freezer and the compressor won't cycle off. In both cases, that would cause the temperature in the refrigerator to drop slightly too which is normal. The bulb for the cold control in this model senses the temperature in the freezer, so setting it to a colder setting should drop the temperature mostly in the freezer. You should also notice that once the temperature gets cold in the refrigerator, the thermostatically-operated aiflow control should partially close the ventilation in the refrigerator automatically when the compressor and fan are working (you can feel the amount of air that circulates from the main air outlet above the cover for the light bulbs if you hold the light switch pushed as if the refrigerator door was closed). But even if that works fine, the temperture in the refrigerator section might get a bit too low if the compressor doesn't cycle off sometimes as there is still some restricted airflow when the control closes. | ||
| Post# 779140 , Reply# 34 8/24/2014 at 18:48 (3,534 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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| Post# 932072 , Reply# 35 4/12/2017 at 19:28 (2,572 days old) by funktionalart (Rison, AR) | ||
Sorry to reopen a 3-year old thread…!
Just thought what I am going to post here should be included as my post relates to the same series of 60s Frigidaire refrigerator units. Mine is a 1963 FPI-16B-63--photos included here are of some wiring I unearthed today in my freezer compartment.
Here's my concern: The unit works just fine. I'm not trying to fix anything that isn't broken or mess with a good thing! BUT: this refrigerator has been running in a spare room all by itself. Nothing else near it or plugged in. I decided to finally install this in my kitchen and got one hell of a shock (literally) when I touched it today. I have NOT got a 3-prong grounded corset on it (am definitely going to remedy that ASAP). Cord is still original. Because I had an old recollection of reading this thread years back, I decided to open up the freezer compartment and see if there was any loose/corroded wiring or other issues. It took some digging, but I managed to pull out the orange drain heater. It seems fine--nice and supple--no problems~however a grey wire showed up when I pulled this cluster of wires out. It has no cap on it and I don't know where or IF it should even be connected with any others. As I say, this unit works just fine so can I presume that simply capping or electric taping this single grey wire (along with adding a 3-prong cordset)--my electric shock issue might probably go away? Pics of this are below, along with some other random ones I took while I was down on the floor! BTW~PhilR…if you see this post, can you advise on replacement for that perished rubber "U" shaped mount I show in the last photo? | ||
| Post# 932086 , Reply# 36 4/12/2017 at 21:01 (2,572 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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Allen, I also had to replace this mount on one of my fridges, I couldn't locate the original part so I used a piece of rubber to replace it.
The only gray wire I see in my plans is the one that goes from the refrigerator section's light switch to the freezer fan. Does your blower still stop when you open the refrigerator's door? Is the wire that's cut still live (check with the refrigerator door closed). As for your electrical shock, If it's not related to the gray wire that has been cut, I can tell you it's often caused by defrost heater that's shorted to the ground. It might still work but it makes the whole cabinet live. The first thing to check (assuming the fridge has been used recently and the freezer coil is still wet) is the conductivity between each of the two blade connectors of the plug (with the plug disconnected from the outlet of course!) and the cabinet with a multimeter on the "ohms" reading. If it's still shorted, you'll see some conductivity on one of the blades of the plug and metallic parts of the cabinet (the one you touched when you got a shock should work!). If you see that there's some conductivity, you have to figure what causes that condition. If there's no conductivity, you might have temporarily "fixed" the situation by moving something or letting the freezer compartment dry from not being used for some time. But if there's still a short, the first thing to try is to disconnect the defrost heater to see if you still have conductivity between the plug and the cabinet. Also, I see that your defrost timer has been replaced, probably with a 4 wire model. There is probably a green wire that has been disconnected somewhere. This green wire is NOT a ground and it shouldn't touch the cabinet. Since the compressor was replaced by another Frigidaire compressor and the defrost timer also seems to be a replacement from Frigidaire, there are good chances that the person who fixed it knew what he was doing so there might not be issues with the wires. But it's still good to have a look at that. Here are a few pics of the pages of the service manual that might help you with the wiring. I can't send you the whole manual as I don't have an internet connection at home and I'm just relying on my limited data plan on my phone. If you find that the defrost heater is shorted, the good news is that a similar replacement part is still available. It's a bit tricky to replace but I have done it on a few similar 1964 fridges (but not on my 1963 yet!). | ||
| Post# 932094 , Reply# 37 4/12/2017 at 21:22 (2,572 days old) by funktionalart (Rison, AR) | ||
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Phil~Thanks for this. I will have to do some work sorting this out…I just found it odd that this "shock" situation never happened before I moved the refrigerator into the kitchen to put it to use. It was in another room holding cold drinks and never did it shock me in there.
Yes, my fan works properly via the door light switch as it should. Open door, fan stops. Close door, it resumes. I'm just so reluctant to mess about with any wiring on this refrigerator--just because everything works perfectly on it. And that defrost heater heats up fast and nicely. But as you outline…full investigation is definitely in order. Getting strong shock off the cabinet is really scary…! Any ideas what the date/rating of the replacement compressor might be? When I first bought this a couple years back, you'd asked me about it and I really didn't know. I only knew it was replacement based on it being painted white vs. black. It seems to be an identical unit to the original, but I've no idea what the hp rating is. Pic of it is #6 up above… As for that rubber mount--I'm sure I can craft my own--was just hoping that it was something that might be available already made. I shouldn't hope for anything like that for a 55 year old appliance though…! | ||
| Post# 932095 , Reply# 38 4/12/2017 at 21:29 (2,572 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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| Post# 932100 , Reply# 39 4/12/2017 at 21:51 (2,572 days old) by funktionalart (Rison, AR) | ||
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| Post# 932110 , Reply# 40 4/12/2017 at 22:42 (2,572 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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| Post# 932117 , Reply# 41 4/12/2017 at 23:37 (2,572 days old) by funktionalart (Rison, AR) | ||
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Phil~ found and fixed the electrical shock problem. Two of the wires running along the lower left compartment floor had been a little bit too near the heating element so the wire insulation was cooked in a very, very small area. Doubtless it was touching metal somewhere. Repaired now…fridge running and NO electrical shocks or any of that mild "buzzy" feel on the outside of cabinet.
I've even touched the dishwasher and the fridge at the same time--no problem. Kept my steel wristwatch on the whole time, too. Nice to know this '63 isn't going to electrocute anybody now! | ||
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Post# 932122 , Reply# 42 4/13/2017 at 01:05 (2,572 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay) |
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 Allen/Phil,
What if you carefully undid the wire nuts for the orange/blue leads and also for the orange/gray/gray leads to see if maybe there's an extra braid of wire that detached itself from the disconnected gray lead? It sure looks like the detached gray wire is curved as if it used to be twisted with the orange & blue. | ||
| Post# 932128 , Reply# 43 4/13/2017 at 03:29 (2,572 days old) by funktionalart (Rison, AR) | ||
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Ralph~ I did do that, actually…and found nothing. I'm going to try to not worry anymore past this point as it all seems to be fine now--but do have to wonder why this is cut in the first place--unless it has to do with the fact that the defrost timer is a replacement (I've not opened it up to see how it differs from the original one). I am just a little surprised that whoever cut this didn't at least cap/seal the wire end and tuck it out of sight..,
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| Post# 932199 , Reply# 44 4/13/2017 at 13:07 (2,571 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada) | ||
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Post# 932208 , Reply# 45 4/13/2017 at 14:15 (2,571 days old) by goatfarmer (South Bend, home of Champions) |
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