Thread Number: 604
Peter Question : Whirlpool versus LG
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Post# 49949   11/26/2004 at 21:45 (7,083 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        

jetcone's profile picture
In your LG:

In wash does it spray the clothes constantly? And does it "tumble and spray" and also "spin and spray" the detergent solution onto the clothes?

I have been reading those patents from Whirlpool that they are using in their case against LG. I don't see how Whirlpool got a patent yet. They have developed a new wash cycle but the inclusion of a spray nozzle is not new, neither is spraying the clothes whilst spinning so that they are pasted to the tub.

I'm off to search the patent lit.

jet






Post# 49950 , Reply# 1   11/26/2004 at 22:09 (7,083 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
In your LG:

peteski50's profile picture
Hi Jon,
The clothes are sprayed during the first 8 to 10 minutes of the wash phase. The last part of the wash cycle the clothes are tumbled and sloshed. At times the spray goes on and off. Throughout the rinse phases which are about 4 minutes a piece the spray is constantly running. When doing a prewash the spray doesn't run at all. This spray system is simular in some ways to the old Kenmore / Whirlpool combo but it isn't as powerful. I think this patent lawsuit is BS.
Their is also no spin spray when the washer is filling the water goes on and off and that goes through the dispensor to dispense detergent. Than the spray wash action makes sure the detergent is sprayed on the clothes. Send my best to Al and I hope to chat soon.
Peter


Post# 49955 , Reply# 2   11/27/2004 at 07:30 (7,083 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
Thanks Pete, Question for Gansky and Jeff

jetcone's profile picture
Would love to see your LG in action. Al is sleeping under the covers right now.

From what you have told me I don't see the grounds for the infringement. Whirlpool patented the spray wash in 1958, which has since expired and is public domain. They have gone and with almost the same drawings patented the spray rinse! in 1993. The only thing I see unique about the new patent is this: they have patented the spray rinse and spray spin in a horizontal axis machine! As everyone knows spray rinse and spin rinse have been around as long as the top loader has.

I am surpirsed that Whirlpool was able to get a patent for this at this late date. I don't think the patent examiner did a thorough job here. I only see two novel things in Whirlpools patent they are the use of a
highly concentrated wash solution" of about 0.5% to 0.12% detergent by weight". And for a front loader the use of slowly spinning the drum so that the clohtes are pasted to the drum and do not tumble which allows their spray process to saturate the clothes and bleed wash solution thru them and thru the drum continually.
If all LG is doing is spraying the clothes then that has been done before and that patent has expired long ago in 1973.

Greg NUNN, JEff LEFEVER: Does your HE3t/Duet slowly spin the clothes in wash so that they are pasted onto the drum?

jon



Post# 49960 , Reply# 3   11/27/2004 at 08:08 (7,083 days old) by COLDSPOT66 (Plymouth, Mass)        

I have an HE3 (no heater)so maybe the cycle is different than on the HE3t. No wash spray during wash tumble. Fresh water does enter during coast down from interim spins to wet the clothes. The tub spins at about 80-100 rpms while the water sprays on the clothes to throughly wet them before it slightly pauses and then tumbles for rinse. I do like that feature. When you first start the washer it does a "safety check". It locks the door, flushes the detergent dispenser for about 2 seconds, then unlocks the door, then locks it again and starts filling and tumbling for wash. I think part of it is to measure water temp to see how to blend for selected wash temp???? Like other full size f/l's it has a long spin routine. Starts and stops quite a few times if things aren't balanced enough to it's liking...

Post# 49963 , Reply# 4   11/27/2004 at 08:30 (7,083 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
Additional comments!

peteski50's profile picture
I want to add several European washers have been using a spray wash from my readings for years. I don't understand why Whirlpool has not used it in these duets & the he3t's. Thats why I went with the LG also because I figured I would get a better wash with the spray. Besides Whirlpool doesn't make a combo anymore. I don't understand why? This lawsuit is useless and stupid in my openion.
Peter


Post# 50395 , Reply# 5   12/3/2004 at 09:14 (7,076 days old) by Jeff_adelphi (Adelphi, Maryland, USA)        

jeff_adelphi's profile picture
Jon, As far as I know the Whirlpool/Kenmore Catalist washers are the only ones that spin the tub slowly while spraying them with a strong detergent/water solution. My Duet doesn't have any special feature like this. Jeff

Post# 50396 , Reply# 6   12/3/2004 at 09:58 (7,076 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Here's a video clip of the "EcoActive" wash phase on my Fisher & Paykel IWL12 Intuitive Eco. Their GWL11 EcoSmart also does it. I've seen a Catalyst in action, and this seems about the same thing.

Fisher & Paykel EcoActive Wash


Post# 50409 , Reply# 7   12/3/2004 at 22:23 (7,076 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

gansky1's profile picture
My Duet has no recirculating capability, in fact, shortly before mine was produced, they discontinued the door-shower sprayer (fresh water pees down the glass during all fills to clean it) and I have noticed no residue or gunk on the glass without it.

My sister's Catalyst washer spins faster than the F&P, the clothes are actually plastered to the tub. The Calypso washer does a couple of spin-sprays at a slower RPM than the Catalyst - more like the F&P, which help to saturate the load quicker and distribute the detergent solution better - and reportedly all the lint as well! ;-)

Glenn - is that Eco-Active spray a fresh water supply or recirculated? If recirc. - look out, Whirlpool may come and snatch right out of your house ;-)

I wonder if it's more of a stall tactic with WP bringing suit against LG, cut into the profits and slow the market down a bit... Maytag used a recirculating spray to help dissolve and circulate the detergent in the water for a short time in the Neptune f/l but it didn't directly spray onto the load (just to the top of the outer tub) so maybe that wasn't as 'infringing' as LG's. I would like to see how much water (GPM) the LG actually moves onto the load, it isn't much judging by what I've seen of friend's machines - nowhere near the Catalyst & Calypso's shower.


Post# 50412 , Reply# 8   12/3/2004 at 23:02 (7,076 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
It is recirculated. The machine fills with enough water to saturate the load -- the amount varies on load size and absorbancy, so it must be sensed at a low level by the pressure switch. Then the fill stops and the recirculation begins. After a few seconds of recirculation, there is typically a little more fill at the same time as the recirculation, perhaps to 'top-off' the level against what's 'in the air' during the recirculation.

Seems like any patent infringements would have already been brought to light, as the GWL11 has been on the market for a while, probably a couple years . . . but who knows what could happen!

Interesting that there are a few seconds of recirculation at the start of the deep rinse fill, presumably to clear the diverter valve and supply hose of any residual detergent solution -- rinse fill runs for a bit, then it stops (I think basket rotation continues), the pump turns on for maybe 5 seconds, then fill continues.


Post# 50466 , Reply# 9   12/5/2004 at 09:48 (7,074 days old) by JEtcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
The plot thickens!

jetcone's profile picture
Interesting Jeff on the Catalyst, the patent I read was for front loaders the inference being this was a "novel" application of recirculated spray.

Glenn the Ecowash looks alot like the cycle in the Catalyst but can either of you tell me wasn't the catalyst actually spining and compressing the clothes to the tub??

The WH patent calls for spinning the clothes with a "force greater than one G". Which means they don't tumble and so the wash solution is forced thru them.

The Ecowash seems to be using gravity by just slowly rotating the tub under the injector.

jon



Post# 50471 , Reply# 10   12/5/2004 at 13:24 (7,074 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Jon, I've never seen a Catalyst running, but it is my understanding that its spin *is* faster for forcing the solution through the clothes . . . and isn't that *without* a recirculation spray? I did see a Calypso doing its spin/shower and nutate/shower routine at John's, and unless I missed something, it didn't spin that fast either, and of course, it *does* have a recirculation spray.

You are correct about the F&P doing just a slow rotation during the EcoActive phase . . not a full-out spin. The F&P also pauses the basket rotation for a few seconds every 20 seconds or so (I haven't timed it), and the recirculation continues during the pauses.


Post# 50476 , Reply# 11   12/5/2004 at 17:11 (7,074 days old) by gregm ()        

I noticed "peteski" using the word "sloshing" in his descrip of the washing action ....... does that mean that there is some actual splashing of water in the LG, where the WP duets seem to just get soaked/wet but not splashing in water as they tumble ....... does the LG take in a little more water ?? Has anyone washed a big, bulky comforter in these machines, did it get soaked through and through? Were you pleased with the results ??

Post# 50479 , Reply# 12   12/5/2004 at 18:08 (7,074 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
LG Update!

peteski50's profile picture
Hi Greg,
The LG realy doesn't splash like a old FL. It sprays the clothes on and off for about 8 to 10 minutes than wash time continues for the duration depending on the soil level set is the amount of time. The clothes are fully soaked inside out but you barely see water in the drum. Their is a small puddle at the bottom of the tub that the clothes are dropped into. Also the baffels have holes and roller jets that continue to spray water on the clothes. In the rinse phases the pump stays on all the time to spray the clothes. What I dont understand about the duet and he3/4t is that it doesnt have holes in the baffels to provide spraying! I think I am getting a more slosh in the LG. Also in the perm press cycle more water is used but the clothes are tumbled more slowly.
Peter


Post# 50483 , Reply# 13   12/5/2004 at 20:07 (7,074 days old) by gregm ()        
interesting

thanks Peter :), that is helpful info, so how long have you had your machine ?? I gather you like it ?? Did you buy any kind of "extended warranty"?? if you don't mind my asking ....

Post# 50484 , Reply# 14   12/5/2004 at 20:20 (7,074 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        
interesting

peteski50's profile picture
I bought the 3677 combo in june - LG replaced unit in september. It is the larger combo. I do like it - it washes very well. But cycle time is long and pump is noisy otherwise it's a great machine. Yes I did take the extended warranty for $100.00. I hope to chat soon.
Peter



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