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Thread Number: 61679
/ Tag: Air Conditioners
Let's Talk About Heating Shall We? |
[Down to Last] |  |
Post# 843296 9/28/2015 at 20:38 (3,132 days old) by Launderess  (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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WarmSecondRinse's excellent post in another thread regarding steam heating got me thinking. Since Fall is now here and heating season soon upon us time to start a good natured thread about heating systems past and present.
Here in NYC as in much of the northeast steam is the perhaps the dominate method of heating especially for multi-family/unit buildings including apartment buildings and offices. Problem is many of these systems were designed and installed pre-WWII or even pre-WW1 and many of the old steam-heads are no longer around. From what one has read steam heating systems especially boilers were vastly over sized back then to accommodate drafty buildings. That and often by local code rooms had to be kept at 70F even with windows wide open in winter. This idea of "ventilation" grew out of the Spanish Flu epidemic. People believed fresh air killed or at least kept the flu bug away. Now of course these older buildings have had new tightly fitted double or triple pane windows installed and now the sizing for steam is totally off. Problem is finding someone who understands what needs to be done. Am also fascinated by old steam heat systems that used "vacuum" and coal boilers to get the most out of that source of heat. Some of my favourite heating bookmarks: fenkoil.ru/721/... inspectapedia.com/heat/Steam_Radi... | ||
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| Post# 843304 , Reply# 2 9/28/2015 at 20:53 (3,132 days old) by washman (o) | ||
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forgot a pic of my school still standing I might add. Built in 1931. Not sure if it still has the boiler heating though. CLICK HERE TO GO TO washman's LINK | ||
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Post# 843308 , Reply# 4 9/28/2015 at 21:06 (3,132 days old) by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA) |
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The control The control to go with the above valve CLICK HERE TO GO TO suburbanmd's LINK | ||
| Post# 843314 , Reply# 6 9/28/2015 at 21:19 (3,132 days old) by arris (Rochester New York) | ||
Steam Heat The picture of that school reminds me of my grade school, also built in 1931. It had steam heat with bare pipes going up the walls to the next room above, with huge radiators under the windows, those suckers would get hot !!!!! the pipes were multicolored from kids melting crayons on them, but that school was the warmest compared to the 2 new ones built in the late 60's. Only problem was when someone put too much water in the boiler, the place sounded like it was going to blow up !!! | ||
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Post# 843317 , Reply# 7 9/28/2015 at 21:37 (3,132 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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There used to be alot of bigger buildings with steam here. My ex-inlaws had a 1 pipe steam system that had to be filled by hand every so often or it made tons of noise. The radiators had a silver thingie on the side that whistled when it got hot, just what you wanted to listen to at 2am. Most of the pipes were rapped in asbestos and it took a costly abatement crew with gowns and masks to clean it out and they ended up as basic 2 pipe hot water systems.
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| Post# 843318 , Reply# 8 9/28/2015 at 21:48 (3,132 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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A FEW steam ystems Left in the South, some hot water, mostly hot air, for many years oil was IT,,ow natural gas is popular where available, I love to work on really old oil burners,I don't do heating service anymore for a living, but once in a while I get to fix some old unit no one else will tackle!LOL | ||
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Post# 843322 , Reply# 9 9/28/2015 at 22:09 (3,132 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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As mentioned in another thread
While once steam dominated multi-family/large office buildings more and more of the housing market is going with forced air or PTACs.
This is for a host of reasons. In NYC if the LL provides heat the City has mandates about the heating season as well as day and night minimum temperatures. heatwatchnyc.org/tenant_rights.ht... With steam heat especially in an older building where there have been changes and or the thing not properly maintained you have the all to common situation. Persons on the lower floors roasting while residents at the top complain they are "cold" You also have a good number of older persons and or families with children who like it "hot". Well with steam systems depending upon design you are only going to get "on" or "off". That is the boiler will cycle based upon set parameters which in theory should maintain a constant even 70F temp, but then again maybe not. Some tenants treat the steam valves like a thermostat and open or close them partially to "adjust" the radiator temp. That causes the system to go out of balance. Ditto if too many tenants in a line shut off their radiators. Partially closing a steam valve causes water to build up in the pipes and then you get that hammer noise which when extreme can sound as if the building will come down. Any way far easier for the developer or LL to pass heating responsibility and costs onto individual tenants/owners. Problem again in the case of PTAC if run on electric you are going to pay dear from Con Edison. New properties are also installing something common in Europe but rare in NYC, electric water heaters. Again this helps shift cost of the building away from owner to individual tenants. Nothing will prompt a switch to sailor's showers quicker than a NYC electric bill for using lots of hot water heated via that method. Many of the new high rise and other apartments buildings are mostly glass construction, so that lets out steam IIRC. Finally if you go with forced air you can do central air conditioning for full climate control. This is a very big issue atm with new construction as again many of these buildings are glass without opening windows or not man that do. | ||
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Post# 843360 , Reply# 12 9/29/2015 at 02:14 (3,132 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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The old steam radiator systems fascinate me...my elementary school was also built in the '20's and had one pipe steam through most of it, although a couple of newer additions had two pipe hot water going thru them. I remember when I was in first grade I had to go to the basement to summon the janitor when a classmate barfed and I got to see that huge boiler. A few years later it was replaced by a new one and got to see it when I was in 8th grade when we were moving some boxes of books from the old coal bin...the new one was much smaller than I remember the old one to be.
Natural gas is very cheap here, and we have budget billing where they take your usage for the previous 12 months and do an average payment amount...I usually pay around $52/month year around...have seen $72/month during coldest winter months but that was before they started the "rolling average". Everything I have is gas...kitchen range, dryer, water heater, gas grill, and have an unvented gas wall heater for emergency backup should the forced air gas furnace fail or power go out. The only oil heat I've even heard of around here are the people who burn waste oil in modified oil furnaces/boilers. A lot of people out of the city use wood or have those outdoor wood-fired boilers. | ||
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Post# 843401 , Reply# 14 9/29/2015 at 07:21 (3,131 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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over my shoulder! | ||
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Post# 843419 , Reply# 15 9/29/2015 at 09:39 (3,131 days old) by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA) |
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Heat timer Steam heating systems in the old NYC apartment buildings (still an awful lot of them around) adjust the heat using a "heat timer". It senses outside temperature, and adjusts the heating duty cycle accordingly. | ||
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Post# 843498 , Reply# 18 9/29/2015 at 17:49 (3,131 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Those Little Twinke Shaped Boxes Poking Out of NYC Buildings
Are outdoor resets that work with the boiler's Aquastat.
inspectapedia.com/heat/Aquastats.... These ODR are designed to save energy by adjusting the firing of boiler based on outdoor temperatures. While the Aquastat will work via programmed times and temperatures the latter is based on inside the boiler. inspectapedia.com/heat/Aquastats.... For instance as noted above NYC requires a minimum indoor temperature during the day based upon outdoor. You could just set the Aquastat to a specific high and low range for say 6AM to 10PM but what if it is only 40F outdoors. You really don't need to have your boiler firing up all that steam/hot water because indoor temps are not that cold. OTOH if it is say 12F outside you have a different situation. Or if it was 55F then the thing won't come on at all unless the boiler is also firing to make hot water. These outdoor resets work well with the one pipe, no individual thermostats steam or hot water heating systems found in many NYC buildings. Sadly TRV (Thermostatically Controlled Radiator Valves) aren't common in NYC buildings. Mostly one imagines because of the system's age and potential costs involved in retrofitting even a six floor building. inspectapedia.com/heat/Radiator_V... Again because so much of the steam heating systems in older buildings are one pipe retrofitting any sort of thermostat can be expensive or perhaps not even possible IIRC. Then you have inventions like this: scienceline.org/2014/05/cranking-... | ||
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Post# 843536 , Reply# 20 9/29/2015 at 22:17 (3,131 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Firing a steam boiler with coal
Made for steam locomotive but same general principles apply.
For those who have never had to bother heating via a coal fed fire is an art. Especially when dealing with steam boilers back in the day. Today you just flick a switch and the burners (gas or oil) throw a flame. Back in the day you had to know how to get up and keep a fire going, when and how to "bank" it, then how to bring it back to life again. Automatic stokers were a boon to railroads, homeowners and anyone else who used coal to feed a boiler (which back the was a lot of people). Otherwise someone had to go down into the basement and manually add coal and so forth. If the fire went out say overnight because it wasn't banked properly then there was heck to pay in the morning. Not only did you wake up to a cold or freezing house, but you had to get that fire up again. OTOH great thing about coal fed fires is you can control by either feeding or starving the thing for air. That is one of the purposes of dampers and the various doors found on boilers. | ||
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Post# 843542 , Reply# 21 9/29/2015 at 22:43 (3,131 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI) |
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The only difference between a steam locomotive and a steam heating system is that on the locomotive, the higher the pressure, the better. And on a steam heat system, the lower the pressure, the better. High pressure in a steam heat system is actually detrimental to its operation. | ||
| Post# 843544 , Reply# 22 9/29/2015 at 22:53 (3,131 days old) by alr2903 (TN) | ||
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Ms Midler used a skillet... | ||
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Post# 843546 , Reply# 23 9/29/2015 at 23:02 (3,131 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Banging on the radiator
Is and or was an old New York or any other large urban area from the Mid-west to Maine trick of tenants to complain about heat, or rather lack thereof. *LOL*
Until places like New York City enacted mandatory heating laws for rental apartments tenants were pretty much left at the mercy of their landlords. How much heat and when basically rested with who had control of the thermostat/boilers and that usually was the landlord or perhaps super. The super did what he was told or else he was chewed out or fired. | ||
| Post# 843547 , Reply# 24 9/29/2015 at 23:23 (3,131 days old) by arris (Rochester New York) | ||
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Coal
There is nothing like coal heat !!! ( once you get past the dust and ash ) installed a forced air coal furnace in my sisters house, she loved it ( minus the dust and ash, which she put on her driveway for traction in the snow ) It was an automatic stoker type, using rice coal her house was always nice and warm, keeping her 4 bdrm house at 72 with her little kids cost her 70 dollars during the coldest month. As stated earlier by Laundress if it went out or had to start for the season it could be quite a challenge, once it was going you did not want it to go back out !!!
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| Post# 843554 , Reply# 26 9/30/2015 at 00:45 (3,131 days old) by alr2903 (TN) | ||
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Jim, Yes you made a lot of sense. The part I do not understand is with the system under pressure, how is additional water added to the boiler. Does the water have to inject at a pressure > than that of the boiler?-A | ||
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Post# 843561 , Reply# 28 9/30/2015 at 03:04 (3,131 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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how is additional water added to the boiler
A properly installed and operating steam heat system is a totally enclosed loop with nil to none in terms of moisture loss. The water in boiler that is turned into steam condenses and returns to be reheated and so the cycle goes round and round. However some evaporation does occur an as such either there is an automatic feed water system, or it has to be done manually.
Beauty of automatic systems is they use some of the steam off the boiler to preheat the incoming water. This prevents the dreaded thermal shock caused by introducing too cold water into a hot boiler. Same systems IIRC also will preheat water returning back to the boiler for same reason. All boilers have sight glass and it is marked for the proper water level. You do *NOT* fill the boiler any higher than that line. If you have a steam boiler/generator iron system the principle is same. As water is heated and becomes steam that vapor expands. Over filling the boiler with water leaves less room for accommodation of this expanded vapor and can cause all sorts of problems. If you have to continuously add water to a boiler then it means there is a leak somewhere. That is either steam is good amounts is escaping and or water condensate is not returning to boiler. The huge reason for wanting to keep a closed system is that once boiled/heated water will loose oxygen and thus become less corrosive to not only the inside of boiler but pipes as well. Constantly introducing fresh water adds oxygen which must be dealt with (there are various chemicals that can be added to boiler water). Indeed once the boiler is shut down for say the summer you do *NOT* drain the water. It says what it is until next fall/winter when the boiler is again fired up. This is of course if you are not using the thing during the summer for hot water. All this being said boilers do need to be skimmed and flushed to keep them clean and properly running. | ||
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Post# 843579 , Reply# 30 9/30/2015 at 06:09 (3,130 days old) by kimball455 (Cape May, NJ) |
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Heating Help
Here's a link for everything you want to know about heating. Check out the 'Wall' the discussion forum.
I have gas fired hot water heat. A modulating condensing boiler with three zones. The boiler also heats hot water via indirect to a 40gal Triantle Tube tank. Harry CLICK HERE TO GO TO kimball455's LINK | ||
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Post# 843597 , Reply# 32 9/30/2015 at 09:05 (3,130 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada) |
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My house is a 1000 sq. foot raised bungalow with a finished basement. When I bought the house it had baseboard electric as well as a home built wood stove in the basement. The wood stove worked great and heated the entire house because it had a furnace type blower attached to it and then ductwork that went to the living/dining and bathroom areas. I only used the stove when I was home so I was using a combination of wood and electricity. When I heard that electricity rates were going to rise substantially in the next few years I got rid of the wood stove, and baseboard heaters replacing them with hot water baseboards and a propane fire boiler (natural gas not available where I live). It was expensive to install but makes the house very comfortable when it is -30 C outside. I have 5 zones - 3 of which are on programmable thermostats - living/dining, bathroom, master bedroom and 2 with regular thermostats - guest bedroom, lower level. I am on equal billing, paying $260/month for 8 months with propane @ $0.639/litre. This winter the fixed rate is $0.569/litre and my monthly payment has dropped to $200. I also pay $138/month for electric on equal billing.
Gary | ||
| Post# 843611 , Reply# 33 9/30/2015 at 10:30 (3,130 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
Electric forced air here. I think this was quite common in my area once--the house I grew up in had oil heat originally (built about 1950) but was converted in the 70s. Electricity was apparently dirt cheap here once.
Gas forced air is probably a very common choice now. Out where I am, gas is not an option (no service). Heat pumps seem fairly common. I can't say for sure, but I'd suspect people choose gas first these days. But if not an option, they'll go with a heatpump. Winters are mostly mild enough for heatpumps to work acceptably. Steam and hot water systems exist, but seem to be an "old house thing." I don't think I've ever seen a house out here with radiators that wasn't built well before World War II. Wood stoves are also not uncommon, either as a primary source of heat, or supplementary/backup. A place where I lived a few years ago was actually built in the 70s as wood-heat only. (The builders were older, Depression era people who'd always used wood heat, I gathered.) The stove even had a coil to heat water, I believe. But at some point, they added a heat pump...maybe after all those years they were tired of splitting wood. LOL One interesting note about wood heat: apparently in parts of the Tacoma, WA area, old wood stoves will be banned from use on (IIRC) October 1. The reasoning is air quality. There was apparently some program that helped people buy newer stoves, but, of course, only covered part of the expense. | ||
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Post# 843616 , Reply# 34 9/30/2015 at 11:12 (3,130 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada) |
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In new home builds around here, natural gas is usually the choice if it is available and usually the heat delivery method is forced air however hot water radiant floor heating is becoming a lot more common. If natural gas is not available then it is either propane or oil. Electric baseboards used to be very common because it was the least expensive to install however with the electric rates skyrocketing, builders are moving away from electric. It is not uncommon for homes of 2500 sq. feet, which are heated by electric baseboards, to cost the homeowner $700-800/mth in electricity. I don't know how people can afford it.
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| Post# 843639 , Reply# 35 9/30/2015 at 14:32 (3,130 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs) | ||
Schadenfredude... I'm sure many of you know what that refers to, a feeling of enjoyment that comes from seeing or hearing about the troubles of other people. Gulity as charged, so let's hear about those sky-high costs of winter heating in the East. It helps me to deal with the electric bill I will receive at the end of next month. Today is the last day of Edison's "reasonable" power period. Tomorrow starts the much more expensive "winter" rate schedule. It is 105 outside, hardly considered winter or even fall. You should all feel sorry for me | ||
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Post# 843645 , Reply# 36 9/30/2015 at 15:08 (3,130 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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Post# 843703 , Reply# 40 10/1/2015 at 01:00 (3,130 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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 Older Northeastern cities probably are mostly steam-heated, but I grew up in a suburb of New Haven built in the early 1950's and we had passive oil/air heating. It was very quiet and seemed to work quite well (as long as we paid the oil bill, that is). Now here in California even in the big cities it is mostly gas heat of some sort, or electric heat exchanger where there is not gas service. In SF, often older apartments/flats were heated by a single passive heater, usually a floor heater. Which would mean that the other rooms in the house would be cool if not downright cold in the winters, mild as they are. Now I'm enjoying a forced air gas heating system and it works very well, although not exactly quiet and one can usually tell when it's on.
This house has two fireplaces and I retrofitted both with fairly efficient inserts. But as luck would have it the air pollution authority bans burning anything but natural gas in fireplace most of the time in the winter. If we have a wet winter, there may be fewer "no burn" times, but last winter was rather dry and I never bothered to fire up either fireplace, despite having plenty of firewood.
The last apartment my Mom lived in SF originally had a nice steam heat system, something of a rarity there, with radiators in the living room and bedroom. But when the steam system broke down, the landlord gamed the rent control system and rather than repair the steam heating, switched all the apartments over to individual gas heaters. That way the landlord no longer had to pay for the fuel to heat the apartments, but kept the rent the same. The problem was the heater were installed in perhaps the worst locations in the apartments. In my Mom's case, it got put into the end of hallway near the entry, about as far as you could get from the living areas. Needless to say it didn't work worth a damn and she spent a lot of time standing by that contraption trying to keep warm. And so it goes.
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Post# 843705 , Reply# 41 10/1/2015 at 01:41 (3,130 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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In early days of steam heating it quickly got a bad name
Due to boiler explosions. This was because early designers ran systems with high pressure steam. Name escapes me but some bright blub came along and proved you could heat even the largest buildings with low pressure steam and that was that. IIRC systems do not go above one to three psi. That and of course making sure there is an automatic pressure relief valve that *works*. IIRC many local codes require testing of such and certification it is working.
This low pressure steam gave rise to "vapor" heating as it was called. Instead of a strong force of high pressure steam you hade a gentle flow of low. As mentioned above when such systems were working perfectly you never knew they were running. No banging, clanging, etc.. Just soft even heat. www.achrnews.com/articles/103994-... inspectapedia.com/heat/Steam_Boil... CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK | ||
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Post# 843770 , Reply# 45 10/1/2015 at 15:28 (3,129 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI) |
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No Heat til November 1st If I waited that long, I'd freeze my tits off and possibly the pipes in the house too. | ||
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Post# 843772 , Reply# 46 10/1/2015 at 15:38 (3,129 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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Radiant Floor Heat | ||
| Post# 843785 , Reply# 47 10/1/2015 at 17:20 (3,129 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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No Heat til November 1st
I'm wondering how long I've been able to delay the use of heat. All I can think is October-something.
A lot, of course, depends on the place one is living, and also the year. The last time I lived in a real house, the people in charge of the property were up here working in early October. They place they were staying was poorly insulated, and it was ugly at night. Even with a kerosene heater and a wood stove, they practically froze. Meanwhile, I think I was barely using heat at all. I'm already using heat this year, although only a bit early in the day, and again late at night. If this place had real insulation, rather than a few pieces of toilet paper and prayer, I might not need heat yet. When I was really young, my father apparently decreed the heating season ran October (at the earliest) to May. Years later, my mother groused, er, commented how miserable it was some years making it to October... | ||
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Post# 843788 , Reply# 48 10/1/2015 at 17:38 (3,129 days old) by ea56 (Cotati, Calif.) |
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We are all electric and we don't get a higher baseline of KWH's until Nov. 1st, so we don't use the heat until Nov. 1st every year. We have electric hydronic baseboard heaters and they work pretty good. They are quiet and clean and if we use them wisely the bill isn't too high. We also have a pellet stove insert and that works very well, but we can't use it on No Burn Days that the Bay Area Air Quality Control district imposes when it hasn't rained for a while. We also are on TOU electric service, so Mon. thru Fri from 12 pm until 6 pm we don't use the electric heaters. as the rate is MUCH higher during the peak use period. When it's not a No Burn day we can use the pellet stove to keep warm, but on No Burn days we freeze our asses off until 6 pm.
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Post# 843826 , Reply# 49 10/1/2015 at 21:00 (3,129 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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"I didn't stick around to see the aftermath. "
A wise decision. When some parents then began handing out spankings sometimes anything that breathed was caught up in the net. *LOL*
Personally as a child had a very well developed sixth sense for when trouble was about to break out and made myself scarce. Yeah I may have been labeled a "snitch" or "goody-two=shoes" but at least I could sit down and or had dinner with dessert. *LOL* | ||
| Post# 843836 , Reply# 50 10/1/2015 at 21:41 (3,129 days old) by mayken4now (Panama City, Florida) | ||
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Post# 843864 , Reply# 52 10/2/2015 at 00:28 (3,129 days old) by ea56 (Cotati, Calif.) |
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My family moved into a ranch style house in 1958 that was built in 1947. It was built on a concrete slab foundation and had radiant heat in the floors. I was 7 years old and I can still remember that it was the most comfortable heat that I have ever experienced before or since. There was never a cold spot anywhere in that home. However, the boiler would overheat sometimes and it would clank loudly. My dad showed me how to turn it down, since I was th oldest kid. It used to scare me when I had to do this because the pressure gauge would show in the red danger zone and I was afraid it would explode, but I never had a mishap, thankfully. Once, a pipe broke in the kitchen floor and the floor had to be jack hammered in order the get to the broken pipe to repair it.
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Post# 843906 , Reply# 54 10/2/2015 at 09:49 (3,128 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada) |
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| Post# 843914 , Reply# 55 10/2/2015 at 10:32 (3,128 days old) by washman (o) | ||
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I'll be switching on the union made Goodman furnace tonight. Will marvel at the 96% algore approved efficieny rating that allows me to stay warm all the while reducing my carbon footprint. | ||
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Post# 843917 , Reply# 56 10/2/2015 at 11:02 (3,128 days old) by marky_mark (From Liverpool. Now living in Palm Springs and Dublin) |
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 I guess the best type of system to have depends partly on the climate where you live. Here in Spain we have central A/C in our apartment for the summer. In the winter it runs "in reverse" to provide heating (heat pump, forced air). The mild temperature during winter allows the heat pump to run very efficiently. Works great.
Including tax, we pay €0.16/kWh at all times for all consumption (US $0.18/kWh).
Spain has invested heavily in renewables and a couple of times has been generating more electricity through wind turbines than the whole of Spain has been consuming.
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| Post# 843918 , Reply# 57 10/2/2015 at 11:06 (3,128 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs) | ||
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countryguy... | ||
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Post# 843919 , Reply# 58 10/2/2015 at 11:16 (3,128 days old) by marky_mark (From Liverpool. Now living in Palm Springs and Dublin) |
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Post# 843930 , Reply# 61 10/2/2015 at 12:43 (3,128 days old) by marky_mark (From Liverpool. Now living in Palm Springs and Dublin) |
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Jim, you could just add it to the bathroom floor just to take the chill of the tiles. It's nice.
I have a friend in the UK with underfloor heating fed with warm water from an ultra-efficient condensing gas boiler. Before this, her previous house also had underfloor heating fed with warm water from a heat pump. I used to live in an apartment in the UK with electric underfloor heating. Very cozy, completely silent and even heating. Kitchen/bathroom tiles lovely and warm to walk on. I had a time-of-use tariff as my electric system was designed to heat up the concrete floor during the off-peak rate and remain warm all day. However it was extremely slow to respond. I once came back during winter having been away for a week and it took hours to warm the place up! | ||
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Post# 843937 , Reply# 62 10/2/2015 at 14:25 (3,128 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada) |
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Post# 843987 , Reply# 65 10/2/2015 at 20:20 (3,128 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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For your chilly and rainy (for some) Friday night reading
What those old "dead men" knew....
To think they did all this in the early 1900's late 1800's with nothing more than slide rulers and so forth to work out the numbers. That and they just did the sums in their heads. books.google.com/booksQUESTIONMA... | ||
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Post# 843997 , Reply# 66 10/2/2015 at 20:54 (3,128 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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What a difference a week or two makes
Weekend before last it was so hot and humid in NYC had to break down and put on the AC to dry things out. This weekend was cooler so could use the fan only. Now it is out right chilly, rainy and damp. However even with outdoor temps in the 40's don't expect any heat to come on.
Have an oil filled portable radiator and *could* put that on. But for now trainer pants and shirt along with thick socks will do. If things stay really chilly over the weekend may fire up the Lavatherm condenser dryer. *LOL* | ||
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Post# 844002 , Reply# 67 10/2/2015 at 21:52 (3,128 days old) by jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers) |
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I've read most of Dan Holohan's books and I've taken one of his lectures. He is a fascinating talker and story teller ! He's very entertaining even if you are not there to learn about steam or hot water systems. His book "The Lost Art of Steam Heating " helped me save my steam system of which I am enjoying tonight at 49 degrees and raining outside. Steam heat is also the best thing for a basement, its always dry and warm in winter and that long drying period stops molds cold! Not to throw a metaphor.
The oversizing of systems actually started early in the 19th century. It was believe air locked in a house became "vitiated"and led to disease and so for health needed to be replaced continually. So systems were sized to run a house warm with windows open all winter! I found when redoing my system with the wall insulation and new double pain windows I could cut my radiators down by 2/3 rds !! That meant a lot of floor space freed up and a much smaller boiler hence a much faster pickup when the thermostat calls. My boiler uses about 6 gallons of water to heat a 4 story house. ( Basement included). With all the new piping up from the header the system is totally quiet. You never a bang, thunk or clunk ! As Dan teaches all the Dead Men knew steam was supposed to be silent !
CLICK HERE TO GO TO jetcone's LINK This post was last edited 10/02/2015 at 22:08 | ||
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Post# 844021 , Reply# 69 10/2/2015 at 23:35 (3,128 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Now that I think of it, the last year we lived in SF before I left for college, we were in a more modern apartment complex with hot water heating. It had radiators sort of like steam heating, but the complex literature said it was hot water instead of steam. Seemed to me the thing was nearly always on (it was near Lake Merced, which is in the fog belt of SF) and usually I had to leave a window open in my room to avoid getting cooked. There was a little chain you could pull to adjust the heat but again, it was always on and putting out heat - the chain didn't seem to make much difference there. The windows were nice steel framed casement windows, so they would catch a passing breeze quite well. But I was glad to be out of there and back to the mainland of California where the sun was usually out and things were not quite so sterile.
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Post# 844178 , Reply# 72 10/3/2015 at 23:20 (3,127 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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WOW, only 275 gallons for the winter, I wish. Last winter was the coldest ever on record in this area. I have (2) 330 gallon tanks that were full 12 months ago and the gauge said they were on EMPTY after I could finally get an oil truck here this past April and had them dump 400 gallons. I have to call soon and have them fill it soon for the winter. Everything is totally insulated, thermopane windows and doors, so I cant do anything more here. I will chime in with what the final gallon amount for the year was after this next fill-up. Normally it is right around 500 gallons for heat and hot water for 12 months, but it is going to be way more than that. At least oil costs are less than half of what they were a year ago.
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| Post# 844180 , Reply# 73 10/3/2015 at 23:36 (3,127 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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BUT! This house is only about 975 square feet, and even with no wall insulation, its built like a vault. | ||
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Post# 844212 , Reply# 74 10/4/2015 at 05:11 (3,126 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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We gave in | ||
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Post# 844217 , Reply# 76 10/4/2015 at 05:44 (3,126 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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I've had the heating on for a while now. I don't want the humidity level get too high in my apartment. I have asthma and am very allergic to mold. Better safe than sorry.
I have hot water heating, the water is heated by a high efficiency combi boiler. I use a thermostat with a timer, it's always nice and warm when I get up. Here's a picture of the combi boiler. It's very small, just about a small wall cabinet. 
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Post# 844220 , Reply# 77 10/4/2015 at 07:20 (3,126 days old) by kimball455 (Cape May, NJ) |
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WM Ultra 90 Boiler
Hi ..
Here is a picture of the WM Mod-Con boiler that heats both the house and hot water. Hot water is via an indirectly fired Triangle Tube tank in another location. I am very limited on space and this system fits in the corner of my kitchen approximately a 30x24 footprint. This picture taken during the remodel and install. Three zones of Slant Fin baseboard hot water. Very comfortable and quiet. A/C is 4 Sanyo minisplits. Harry
View Full Size
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Post# 844307 , Reply# 79 10/4/2015 at 18:19 (3,126 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Is the heat on yet? | ||
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Post# 844316 , Reply# 80 10/4/2015 at 19:00 (3,126 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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Post# 844320 , Reply# 81 10/4/2015 at 19:30 (3,126 days old) by ovrphil (N.Atlanta / Georgia ) |
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Reply #2 - school building
That looks a little like the school I attended for 1-6th grade in my home town.
The rooms were all green and the large steam radiators reached up to just under the sills of the windows. We never felt cold. That school was raised because they claimed too much asbestos and too costly to renovate and use. It's strange not seeing the primary school I attended - others in the city are still up, but that one was built in the early to middle part of the last century. Our generation grew up with alot of the steam or oil heaters. I liked the noise they made, as others...a reassuring sound that heat was on the way. | ||
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Post# 844341 , Reply# 83 10/4/2015 at 21:46 (3,126 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 844344 , Reply# 84 10/4/2015 at 22:12 (3,126 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 846338 , Reply# 87 10/17/2015 at 21:56 (3,113 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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I need a little steam heat on my floor....
Since last Thursday has been kind of chilly here in NYC. Wondered what the strange whiff was about Friday then touched the riser in bathroom. Low and behold the heat is cranked on. Though the hot water was back to "winter" setting when ran the Mobile Maid.
Looks as if building sorted out the system as the heating is totally quiet. Barely a hiss. If it weren't for the "heating" smell given off by the risers and convectors you'd never know. Well that and feeling warm. | ||
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Post# 846350 , Reply# 88 10/17/2015 at 22:36 (3,113 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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I used much more of that expensive heating oil than I had ever used last year. As it was the coldest ever on record. But the heat is on again right now and it is going to be in the low 20's tonight. No need of it! North of me had 4 inches of snow this morning. Most of my neighbors have gone south to escape it and wont be back until April at the earliest. I am ready to go to warmth and close this place up for the winter. I have had it with cold and snow.
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Post# 846373 , Reply# 90 10/18/2015 at 00:39 (3,113 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Chimmeny Won't Draw
Was reading about coal fired boilers/stoves/furnaces and learned a few things.
Apparently it must be quite chilly out to burn the stuff in particular anthracite. Without cool or cold temperatures (again apparently) producing a draft required to get fire started is quite a challenge. Anthracite in particular is very hard to get going and it can take hours to get a good fire up. Longer still to cold start a steam boiler. | ||
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Post# 846404 , Reply# 91 10/18/2015 at 09:35 (3,112 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 846424 , Reply# 93 10/18/2015 at 13:31 (3,112 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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Jim, my niece has been bugging me to come to Florida for the winter. Maybe next winter but not this one. I have a coal stove I no longer use but I thought using coal was very easy. To start a fire, I put charcoal on the grate and crumpled newspapers in the bottom ash pan. Once the charcoal was going good, I would add a scoop of coal every few minutes until it was going good and shut down the damper. Then it was to shake down and add more coal every 12 hours. The fire would continue to go until the first mild day and without the chimney draft, the fire would smother itself out.
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Post# 846438 , Reply# 94 10/18/2015 at 14:28 (3,112 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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About using soft coal and or wood/newspapers
Am sure everyone has their own ways but from what one has read using wood to start a fire in a coal only boiler is/was frowned upon. Something to do with adding creosote to the interior of the boiler or whatever which apparently isn't a good thing.
Also (again IIRC) boilers and or whatever designed for burning hard coal aren't easily swapped or like to deal with the soft stuff or wood. | ||
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Post# 846479 , Reply# 95 10/18/2015 at 18:36 (3,112 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ) |
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Exactly right. That's why the goal is to use the minimal amount necessary of wood and soft coal. I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty sure one can't start a fire with just hard coal. | ||
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Post# 846533 , Reply# 96 10/19/2015 at 00:08 (3,112 days old) by gusherb (Chicago/NWI) |
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Well now that we've had our three nights of late fall like weather it's supposed to be 70 Monday and 77 by Wednesday. Looks like I'll have the A/C on by Tuesday. Thank you El Nino! | ||
| Post# 846620 , Reply# 98 10/19/2015 at 18:22 (3,111 days old) by arris (Rochester New York) | ||
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starting a coal fire | ||
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Post# 846628 , Reply# 99 10/19/2015 at 19:44 (3,111 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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I have my grandfather's caboose pot belly stove I used for many years, he was an engineer on the RR and must have had the right connections to get it. He always started with kindling and my cousin said why not use charcoal to get anthracite going. So much easier, It really, really worked, LOL. I bet coal is cheaper than this outrageous propane now, but propane is even easier. Heat radiates from the bottom where the fire is with coal. Flue to chimney is not very warm and no worry about a lined chimney, no chimney fire from coal. Just nothing combustible anywhere near it when going.
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| Post# 846659 , Reply# 100 10/19/2015 at 22:42 (3,111 days old) by ilovewindex (Tualitan OR) | ||
Thought i would throw this out there (Im a lurker but felt compelled to add this, as this has been a learning lesson)
I've grown up and lived all over and had mostly Heat Pumps... House growing up was a Heil from 1993, house before was an 85 Trane..... Briefly as a baby we had an oil floor furnace.. Its then been 2 Coleman Heat Pumps a really Ghetto Carrier unit (in an apartment), A tempstar, and a Lennox.. Then living in the SW i had just a Gas Furnace and Window shakers... Here, I had a forced air electric furnace (ie: hair dryer on steriods) from lennox that was put in when the place was built (1978) That SOB cost me $2000 in electric during the course of November, Decemeber and January of this year because something shorted out and one of the coils stayed live 24/7... The ductwork leaked and it was held together with alumnium tape.. Didn't even have a filter.. The thermostat was in the coldest part of the down stairs and it just sucked.. And it was SO LOUD.. Found out later they used parts of the joist runs as ducts.. SO not ok PGE and the Oregon Energery Council where/are handing out rebates for Ductless Heatpumps and I bit the buillt. January 27th, 2015, I had a new Daikn Ductless Heat Pump Put in.. $4200 out lay and $2200 in rebates... My house is a Tri level loft style town house, where 3/4 of it is open to everything else, just on different levels.. I only had one "head" unit installed and it so far has been awesome... I need to get the Skylight upstairs replaced and re insulated and then the ac will reach upstairs better... If i had a head put in each room it would be even better, but that was just too much ($1800 per room).. I didn't go for a regular heatpump because the darn ductwork is shot and i figured "Ehhh, its the cheapest option, lets try" The front bedroom gets a tad chillier than the others but a space heater takes the chill away... I run it 24/7 in fan mode and keep the bedroom windows cracked..... We set the heat at 65 and the a/c at 67 (yes we like it cold)... We do use a ductless window ac unit in the master to supplment it and I think in time I'll add a second head up stairs in the hall... The one downside is the doors gotta be open and my roommate hates that, but oh well.. Its quiet, simple and cheap and well built, so I am happy My avg bill now is $120 or so during heavy useage Steam heat was very seldom ever seen where I grew up, except in our Middle School and man did it suck butt.. One house had that Cable heat in the celing and it hardly worked.. Gas is ok, but I am afraid it blowing up.. Same with boilers.. If I had to it would be Gas forced air or my choice, a high efficency heat pump | ||
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Post# 846809 , Reply# 102 10/20/2015 at 20:27 (3,110 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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I change my oil burner nozzel about twice a year because mine runs for hot water year round. You can tell when it rumbles and delays to start. I have a Tjernand? Side Shot that vents directly threw the concrete wall, no chimney. My furnace guy says mine has one of the best looking combustion chambers, snow white. The Side Shot has done it for going on 21 years now. Now if it can keep going, I will be real happy.
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Post# 846837 , Reply# 103 10/20/2015 at 22:17 (3,110 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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The temps here are still in the 70's or higher during the days, so far from having to turn on the furnace, I'm simply gradually closing windows that have been open since spring for cooling.
With El Niño on the way, we're supposed to have a wetter winter. This means more nights when the local air quality board allows wood fires in fireplaces. I've got a fair amount of firewood stockpiled, and plan on tidying up the area around the two fireplaces with inserts to prepare to use them more this winter (didn't use them at all last winter). They don't heat the house as well as the gas forced air furnace, but they do provide a wonderful ambiance.
Meanwhile I'm focusing on getting some last minute outdoor painting done before the damp sets in.
I remember some past winters when we had rain non-stop for weeks. There were even news stories about a rise in mental depression complaints due to the gloomy weather. That's when a fireplace comes in handy ;-)...
I will be firing up the furnace soon just to clear the dust out of the system and make sure it's running ok. Already changed the filters.
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Post# 846938 , Reply# 107 10/21/2015 at 12:37 (3,109 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI) |
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Around here gas is so cheap that it's cheaper to heat the whole house then it is to run an electric space heater in one room in order to take the edge off. | ||
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Post# 846986 , Reply# 108 10/21/2015 at 20:47 (3,109 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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| Post# 847087 , Reply# 109 10/22/2015 at 14:48 (3,108 days old) by Artcurus (Odessa) | ||
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Am the only that thinks those ductless units are ugly as sin? They have their place, no question about it, and usually do work very well. However, there's no way in Hell I would put on in a room that I want fix up really nice. | ||
| Post# 847104 , Reply# 112 10/22/2015 at 18:24 (3,108 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD) | ||
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mini split airflow with the Mitsubishi MrSlim, the outlet louvers position differently for heat or cool modes-directs at the floor for heat,outward for cooling.I have seen some mr slim indoors mounted lower on the wall when heating performance was given priority. | ||
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Post# 847106 , Reply# 113 10/22/2015 at 18:36 (3,108 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ) |
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Ok, that would make a difference. Thanks. Now that I've thought about it, it can't be that critical an issue else they wouldn't be selling as primary heat. Jim | ||
| Post# 847176 , Reply# 116 10/23/2015 at 08:29 (3,107 days old) by washman (o) | ||
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The union made Goodman furnace has been cycling more and more, especially at night when the temps drop. This is my first rodeo with a 96% AFUE unit. I am excited about having hopefully lower gas bills this winter. | ||
| Post# 847213 , Reply# 119 10/23/2015 at 15:45 (3,107 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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>Everytime I see homes with large ceilings open to the second and third floor all I can think of is comfort problems and gigantic bills. They look wonderful, and castles had them too--and life was hard.
You have a point. Another thing I dislike are those open floor plans that have almost no walls and definitely no doors between rooms in the main part. There's a long list of reasons I don't like this, but one relevant for this thread is that heating options seem better when you have real individual rooms, ideally with a door. A door on the family room can be helpful to help cut the noise from the rug rats, but it also means that one has the option of easily heating just that one room to 70, while the rest of the house is kept at a frugal 60. In the 1990s, my father endured a lengthy power failure. His-then family lived in a modern development house. The only heat was the fireplace in the family room, and apparently even keeping it going 24/7, and it was apparently quite cold. A fireplace won't heat much, but I'd bet it would have been more tolerable if there had been some way of easily closing that room off from the rest of the house, which certainly literally sucked what heat there was out, and sent back lots of cold drafts. | ||
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Post# 847216 , Reply# 120 10/23/2015 at 16:11 (3,107 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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| Post# 847218 , Reply# 121 10/23/2015 at 16:55 (3,107 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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>I have one but as a heat source, its useless.
I'd have to think so. I don't have much contact with fireplaces now. Indeed, it seems like most people I know who have a fireplace have gas logs now. But I remember the one we had growing up--pretty flames, and toasty warm if you were right by it. Although I have heard that fireplaces can be viable--at least considerably more viable than regular fireplaces--for heating. I've been intrigued by Rumford fireplaces (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumford_fi...), and fireplaces that have massive mass to hold heat (which could be released after the fire goes out). But these better fireplaces need the right design, and probably more expensive construction. Cheap and easy wins out, particularly in the sort of house my father had. (Prefab fireplace, probably the cheapest choice avaiable to the builder). | ||
| Post# 847225 , Reply# 122 10/23/2015 at 17:47 (3,107 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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Antique Floor Furnace I found a oddity im going to get tomorrow, a 1950s Evan oil fired floor furnace, In all the years I worked on furnaces I never saw a Evans, it is a typical 50s floor furnace with a vaporizing burner , It will be fun to play with for the vintage factor. | ||
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Post# 847227 , Reply# 123 10/23/2015 at 18:38 (3,107 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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Vaporizing burner has to have a constant level control and the thermostat turns it on and off but leaves a small "pilot" running. At one time as a little kid we had one on a Sears Homart water heater that worked great until the tank went. As I remember those burners only ran on kerosene. My fireplace has a steel liner with side vents but is still useless for heat but pretty to look at and not worth the work.
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Post# 847273 , Reply# 126 10/24/2015 at 01:07 (3,107 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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It's true that most fireplaces usually wind up sucking cold outdoor in to feed the fire, so most of the heat winds up the chimney. A good fireplace insert however, with a heat exchanger, will change that equation and make it a much better heating option. Even so, most inserts still rely on sucking room air in to provide oxygen for the fire, so there is still the influx of cold air into the living quarters. A better design would be for a separate duct to bring outside air into the firebox directly... which some modern designs may do.
Around here it was recently announced that ALL fireplaces are banned in new home construction, even modern low emission designs. The issue is air pollution, which can be severe on cold still winter days. Existing homes with fireplaces, if sold, have to be accompanied by written warnings of the dangers of wood smoke. On such cold still winter days, it's illegal to burn a wood fire (even an outdoor BBQ). Bummer. But on the other hand, I've noticed the air pollution on those cold still winter days can be really unpleasant when people burn green wood or trash in their fireplaces. My only problem is I'm running out of room to store firewood . | ||
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Post# 847275 , Reply# 127 10/24/2015 at 01:32 (3,107 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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My dad had an outside vent to feed the fireplace back in the Seventies. With glass doors that were fairly airtight, it did put more heat in the house than it removed. During a blizzard in 1993, it was the only heat we had for a few days and the inside temp never got below 60.
But it was still a lot of work. | ||
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Post# 847290 , Reply# 128 10/24/2015 at 06:44 (3,106 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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A fireplace was in my previous house. I never used it in the 14 years I was there. Ashes remained in it from the previous owners. My current house, built in 2004, does not have a fireplace. My parents have one (house built in 1972, moved there in 1980). We used it a few times at first but not now in many years. My apartment when I moved away from home was a garage apartment type of deal, with the owners house built around/behind it. Their fireplace chimney was directly behind my (2nd floor) kitchen & living room. The smoke odor was near-intolerable at times. | ||
| Post# 847297 , Reply# 129 10/24/2015 at 07:18 (3,106 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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>My dad had an outside vent to feed the fireplace back in the Seventies. With glass doors that were fairly airtight, it did put more heat in the house than it removed.
I remember glass doors, at least a type of glass door. I don't think they had outside air source, but they did supposedly IIRC help increase efficiency. I think some people my parents knew added them to their fireplace, and it was something my father planned to do "someday" to ours. I have a vague memory of being appalled at the idea; however, I can see the practicality now as an adult. Another thing I remember are special grates that had hollow tubes that would capture heat, and send warm air out into the room. I think they were available as a natural convection design--which I seem to recall seeing locally--and also a system that had blower, which I only heard about. I am guessing these grates might have been a reaction in part to the energy crisis of the late 1970s. Around here, I think a lot of people got into wood heat. And I suppose things to make fireplaces more viable (or seemingly more viable) with heating suddenly were of interest. There was the promise of using your romantic fireplace, and shaving off part of the heating oil bill. | ||
| Post# 847299 , Reply# 130 10/24/2015 at 07:42 (3,106 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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>A fireplace was in my previous house. I never used it in the 14 years I was there. Ashes remained in it from the previous owners.
I think that's not uncommon. A part of me would really love a woodburning fireplace, but...I wonder how much I'd even use it. Would I ever use it? One huge problem I see now is that one needs a supply of something to burn. I think the most likely scenario for me would require buying fuel, and given the prices, and the near-zero heating efficiency of a fireplace, my practical side would say: "Light a fire only on special occasions." The fireplace we had when I was growing up were fueled by free wood. The house I grew up in had enough trees around the property that my father was able get a fairly good supply of firewood just from fallen branches. But our use of the fireplace was pretty light--maybe a weekend night. And even though my father didn't mind cutting wood, we had a fireplace in the dining room that was never used, not even IIRC when we had company. I have a vague memory of a fire in it the night we moved in, and that was very likely the first and the last fire ever. I now suddenly remember a gadget we had to make "logs" for the fireplace out of newspapers. It had a pole with a crank that would roll up the newspapers, and they'd be secured with some sort of twist tie. I think the operation was done with a water bath. I suppose the water would help make the paper stick together better or something like that. | ||
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Post# 847319 , Reply# 132 10/24/2015 at 10:34 (3,106 days old) by Gusherb (Chicago/NWI) |
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O. M. G. Those people sound like they don't have the first CLUE on how to take care of a house, and/or are oblivious as all hell! Reminds me of the neighbor across the street who thinks they need their "freon" replaced every season. | ||
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Post# 847354 , Reply# 135 10/24/2015 at 15:11 (3,106 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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I know several people who have heated their homes successfully just with a fireplace with an insert. The nicest inserts I've seen are the Lopi brand. Very well built, attractive design, and reasonably efficient. I looked for one when I was fitting inserts for my two fireplaces, but wound up getting other used units that work fairly well. Both have fan-driven heat exchangers that certainly can pump out heat. Not as nice as a Lopi but they work well enough. They will keep the rooms they are in toasty, but other rooms in the house don't benefit much, since it's a single story affair. I suppose I could run the house furnace at a low setting to redistribute the heated air, and I might try that this winter. One of these days I'd like to modify the house furnace control to enable it to run with just the fan. Currently the fan operates only when heat is called for.
I've long wondered if those hollow tubular combination grate passive heat exchangers were any good. I figure they probably don't work as well as an insert designed to capture the heat of the fire and transfer it to recirculated room air, mainly because they require the mouth of the fireplace to remain wide open.
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| Post# 847357 , Reply# 136 10/24/2015 at 15:20 (3,106 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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Donalds parents Heat with a outdoor wood fired boiler hooked up to baseboard ,They have done this for 30 years and their house is always toasty warm. | ||
| Post# 847362 , Reply# 137 10/24/2015 at 15:46 (3,106 days old) by delaneymeegan (Midwest) | ||
Electric heat and insulation, insulation, insulation
I miss the days when coal, oil, and natural gas was abundant and one could find a 30% efficient furnace chugging away in the basement. There was no thought to waste. It was a quaint time.
But the world has changed considerably in the last 50 years. Oil resources have peaked and we are living in the era of the slide down where heating with fossil fuels is becoming increasingly unsustainable. Houses tend to be bigger than they were in 1940, though better insulated. But now the U.S. and world population has exploded to unsustainable levels. Global warming is affecting all of us. I prefer baseboard heat because it makes no noise, there is no waste of heat, it's easy to control, no venting is required, and it doesn't require dangerous or dirty energy source. But regardless of what ones favorite or familiar type heating is, making sure your living envelope is thoroughly insulated is key to economizing and being comfortable. Americans really need to focus on this as the oil resources continue to become more difficult to attain, prices will go up and solutions to staying warm (or cool) will become a prime goal. Something we in the U.S. take for granted these days. Just like when you go outside, or get into bed, what do we do to stay warm? We get a jacket or blankets, and the thicker the covering, the warmer we are. The same principle applies to our homes, though it isn't as easy to apply. American's need help in insulating their homes, and for that matter, understanding the concepts. Some solutions: windows are the greatest source of heat loss. Eliminate unnecessary windows by building over them and insulating the space. If you have thermopane windows, like a double pane window, add another one on the inside, so you have a double-double pane window. Chimneys, flues, and vents: know where they are and how open they are. These can act like a stray, quietly sucking heat right out of your house when they are not operating. I once lived in a house with a 6" kitchen vent hood that had no baffles and the heat was literally just going right up and out. Fireplace chimney with no damper, or with an open damper will do the same things. We don't question what their doing because they are frequently associate with heating. A typical gas water heater with flue has an open vent and will freely suck any hot air up and out, including room air. When possible always chose closed combustion appliances that have a separate pipe that brings outside air in for the sake of combustion. Dryers: a favored appliance for most people here, but when they are operating, the suck a huge amount of room air and push it outside. These should all have a separate duct that connects for fresh air in, so they use fresh clean outside air, instead of room air. Because they aren't usually used but for a few hours a week, their losses can be controlled by opening a near by window, or similar. In situations where they are used daily alternatives should be sought. Best of luck to everyone securing their home for the heating season. CLICK HERE TO GO TO delaneymeegan's LINK 
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Post# 847378 , Reply# 138 10/24/2015 at 16:43 (3,106 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Absolutely. Sealing the house envelope is probably the first thing to do when improving the heating (and cooling) efficiency of an older home.
I also found this house had a retrofitted cooktop hood with a 6" diameter flue going up to the roof with no damper whatsoever. I fitted an aftermarket automatic damper (opened when the fan is on full blast). I can hear it close when I turn off the fan so I know it's working.
In addition to that there were numerous air leaks between the rooms and the open attic. Most were the result of the 60's era remodel of the kitchen. I spent a lot of time with a caulking gun in the attic sealing those off, as well as the older holes for passing electric and plumbing penetrations. Another source of energy loss were the uninsulated and leaky forced air ductwork in the crawl space. Those all got sealed with special mastic and in some cases fiberglass tape, and then insulated with 1" foil backed fiberglass insulation. Also improved the filtration setup for the furnace, and insulated the cold air return ducting.
The outside doors here were pretty well set up for insulation, but the horiz. slider windows had worn out their fuzz strips and rattled in the wind. Rather than spring for all new dual pane windows, I got some new fuzz strips, removed each slider one by one, carefully disassembled the glass from the frames (only broke one or two) cleaned out the old fuzz strips and installed the new. The difference was dramatic. I don't now about energy savings, but the sliders now fit firmly and don't rattle in the wind any more. I figure the new fuzz should last as long as the old... probably about 40 years. By that time I won't care any more ;-).
I even fitted large foam edged plexiglas window panels on the fireplace openings, because I didn't trust the dampers to block enough air. I knew they worked because I had a air convection powered artificial electric log set - the kind with an incandescent light bulb that heated air and as it rose it would hit a little fan on a rotating translucent shade, casting not very realistic patterns on the translucent fake logs. When I fitted the plexiglass windows, there wasn't enough air movement to rotate the shade. Now the fireplaced have inserts, sealed as well as I could, and I haven't noticed any drafts from them when their dampers are shut.
Last but not least, the attic had zero insulation. I added up to R40 up there, using the more user-friendly Dow Corning Miraflex. Can't get that any more, how sad. Also insulated about half the underside of the flooring from the crawl space. And of course the hot water pipes.
When I got all this done I analyzed the gas bills the following winter, accounting for average temperature differences year to year, and found that I'd cut the gas consumption by half. Before, the 80% gas furnace would run all night on the coldest nights, and it was still drafty and cold. After the sealing and insulation work, on the coldest nights it might run for a couple hours off and on, and the place is comfortable. All this with single pane windows, too. | ||
| Post# 847390 , Reply# 140 10/24/2015 at 17:13 (3,106 days old) by delaneymeegan (Midwest) | ||
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WOW, 50% drop ! Rich (sudsy), I'm impressed. You wrote "...the 80% gas furnace would run all night on the coldest nights, and it was still drafty and cold. After the sealing and insulation work, on the coldest nights it might run for a couple hours off and on, and the place is comfortable. All this with single pane windows, too." Impressive. :-) I had a house like that and I remember fitting out the attic with 12" of insulation in November. I remember putting the last piece in place, and dropping the insulated attic panel, in the hallway, into place. 10 seconds later the furnace, which was running most of the time, shut off..... and I swear I heard a hushed 'Thank-you' echo up through the cold air duct. In your case, will you go for another 50% reduction? Soon you could be heating with light bulbs, and in that climate, it wouldn't be difficult. | ||
| Post# 847393 , Reply# 141 10/24/2015 at 17:26 (3,106 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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Any questions, comments, opinions, ideas?
You asked for my opinion, and so you're getting it! Be careful what you ask for next time. LOL
>Despite all the hoopla to the contrary, replacing windows was not that high on the list. Somehow, I'm not surprised about windows. I suppose fancy new windows do lose less heat, and there may be cases where it's the best choice for whatever reason. That said, those windows are expensive, and that raises the whole number of years of payback. Which brings up another issue: those windows may need replacement themselves, and when that happens, will they have been paid off with energy savings? Being cynical, I think the window craze is a mix of energy companies happy (it probably does save something), and it sure keeps the window industry running, full steam ahead. | ||
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Post# 847396 , Reply# 142 10/24/2015 at 17:43 (3,106 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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| Post# 847408 , Reply# 144 10/24/2015 at 18:36 (3,106 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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>Also, the second best bang for the buck was a DIY job of adding insulation to the attic. Adding/installing insulation in the walls was usually not worth it because of the expense.
Seems logical. Heat rises, after all, and it seems like it'll be more likely to head up to make a break for liberty. The roof where I live (old tin can, er, mobile home) is thin, and doesn't have the best insulation. In winter, one can tell just by touching the ceiling that heat loss is going on--the ceiling always feels cold to the touch. | ||
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Post# 847410 , Reply# 145 10/24/2015 at 18:50 (3,106 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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It doesnt really matter as long as you try your best as possible and with what you can spend to save energy. Its better to have just a plain outside storm window and have a maximum insulated attic and sealed up everything to save the most energy than putting in pretty windows. Heat rises and if you can keep it in the living area, thats what you want. But you have to have a properly ventilated attic space and basement so mold cant grow. 20 years ago I did what was more than code to this place and the new things they have now in saving and making energy is amazing.
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Post# 847449 , Reply# 148 10/24/2015 at 21:01 (3,106 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Delaney,
You know, my memory played tricks on me. I used the home energy data for a statistics class project. Unfortunately I no longer have the software to view the graphs, but the notes I left in text form indicate I found 30-40% reduction in gas consumption after the insulation was done. I'm not sure if it included the pre-sealing data as a baseline or the post-sealing data. In any case, the place is far more comfortable with these improvements.
The furnace itself is, I think, a 35 year old 150,000 BTU unit, and is now over sized for the house. It's probably about 75% efficient. There would probably be even more savings by getting a lower output 90%+ unit in there. It might also be quieter. But this one is holding up well, and I keep a CO detector in the bedroom just in case. | ||
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Post# 847456 , Reply# 151 10/24/2015 at 21:48 (3,106 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada) |
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Ceiling Fans
I have a ceiling fan and was told to operate it in the winter so that it blows the air up and thus forces the warmer air at the ceiling along the ceiling and down the walls to the floor. In the summer the direction is reversed so that the air blows down and forces the warmer air up to the ceiling.
Gary | ||
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Post# 847460 , Reply# 153 10/24/2015 at 22:01 (3,106 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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I have a New Yorker boiler that has normally used 500 gallons of oil for all my heat and hot water for nearly 2000 sq. ft.in a 12 month period. My last fillup, which I have (2) 330 gallon tanks filled was 650 gallons, but was $400 less than I paid last year for 500. Guess I was close to empty, but it was the coldest winter on record.
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| Post# 847461 , Reply# 154 10/24/2015 at 22:25 (3,106 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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I always liked! A New Yorker, very easy to clean out, much easier than the old cast iron American Standards . | ||
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Post# 847467 , Reply# 155 10/24/2015 at 22:53 (3,106 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Here in NYC
There are hundreds of coal converted to oil and or gas (dual fuel) steam boilers and they are doing just fine.
Walk up and down streets of say Manhattan and peer into basements especially of pre-war buildings and you'll find plenty of fire tube boilers that once burnt coal but have been converted to oil. Since those things went in when buildings were built (it goes up around them) they aren't coming out easily. Unless there is access the only way is to chop the things up. Newer buildings say those that went up in the 1970's or later are another matter. Regarding another poster's comments about finite fossil fuel resources that simply isn't wholly true. Oil and natural gas supplies are plentiful enough to be causing glut atm. Many countries such as places in Europe, Asia and a good part of the United States also have vast reserves of coal. Thing is burning the stuff just isn't politically popular since various "clean air" acts went into place and certainly now with all the noise over *global warming*. Being as that may plenty of persons with access to coal in the North East United States and elsewhere will burn the stuff in stoves or boilers/furnaces if they can lay hands on a good supply. You can also purchase brand new state of the art furnaces and boilers designed to burn coal. When home heating oil prices were very high coal sales soared. The United States is a vast country and not every rural or suburban areas are piped for natural gas. So it is either oil, propane, coal or wood. Anthracite is one of the cleanest burning fossil fuels and gives one of the highest returns in terms of energy produced. It is also quite clean burning as well. The smoke and mess persons often associate with burning coal comes from the soft variety. | ||
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Post# 847471 , Reply# 156 10/24/2015 at 23:26 (3,106 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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You are right Laundress, Good old Anthracite burns just fine and gives a good even long lasting heat. Easy to get going with my charcoal idea. The pot belly stove I have was grandfathers, from a railroad caboose and when it was running is cold on the chimney pipe, barely warm on the top of the stove and nothing coming out of the chimney outside at -20 outside, but VERY hot off the bottom where the fire is. All the furnaces are spewing vapor out the chimneys, nothing from the coal from my chimney. And Hans, knock on wood, my New Yorker is almost 21 years of perfect service.
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Post# 847475 , Reply# 157 10/24/2015 at 23:41 (3,106 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Well, AFAIK, the main worry with an old gas forced air furnace is that the heat exchanger might have cracked, letting out CO into the heated home air. Which is why I keep a CO sensor by the bed. As I recall when I bought the place about 18 years ago the inspector said there was no sign of cracking, and I'm thinking that's still the case. The fan comes on after less than a minute of flame (I can hear the whine of the igniter and/or gas jets in the house before the fan comes on), and then continues for a minute or two after the gas shuts off. I understand that if the fan shuts off too quickly then the heat exchanger can cool unevenly and that can lead to cracking.
The furnace control looks very simple. Don't recall the brand but somewhere I have all the wiring/literature for it.
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Post# 847476 , Reply# 158 10/24/2015 at 23:57 (3,106 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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| Post# 847483 , Reply# 159 10/25/2015 at 00:42 (3,106 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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If you have oil You will KNOW if a heat exchanger cracks!!!Soot and SMELL! | ||
| Post# 847562 , Reply# 162 10/25/2015 at 17:03 (3,105 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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I never saw A Timken, or any rotary for that matter, but I understand many of them are still running in other parts of the country..I would love to see one run, | ||
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Post# 847614 , Reply# 164 10/25/2015 at 20:41 (3,105 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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I think it's a CO sensor you want, that is for carbon monoxide. Not for CO2, carbon dioxide, which is not poisonous unless it crowds out all the oxygen, which would be unlikely in a normal home. Plus a normal person breathes out CO2 all the time...
CO is particularly noxious because it binds to oxygen receptors on hemoglobin and prevents the blood from carrying oxygen from lungs to tissues. Plus it's odorless and a silent killer. Seen too many news stories of families trying to keep warm by taking charcoal grills inside, or propane fired patio heaters etc, then everyone dies in their sleep from CO poisoning.
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Post# 847630 , Reply# 165 10/25/2015 at 22:27 (3,105 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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dies in their sleep from CO poisoning
So many sad stories of persons and or even entire families being wiped out by CO2 from malfunctioning and or improperly installed heating equipment.
www.ksl.com/QUESTIONMARKR... That was a recent one. There was an entire family I think also in Utah that was killed while sleeping in their brand new home (think it was a vacation place). Turns out the contractor didn't install the heating system properly. Here in NYC we have had our share of similar events including an Irish-American family also wiped out in their sleep from CO2 poisoning. In fact by law all NYC apartments/homes must have working smoke and CO2 detectors. Sadly many do not keep fresh batteries in the things or take them out for use elsewhere. Personally was taught since childhood to sleep with a window slightly opened even in dead of winter. Something I still do even though it does tick some people off. At least back in the old days homes were so drafty that even with closed windows you got decent exchange of indoor air. Today with all the focus on tightly sealed homes/buildings for "energy savings" you are keeping in all sorts of gases and fumes. Older homes even with closed windows had much more frequent full changes of air. Today you cannot even purchase an AC that allows "air exchange". | ||
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Post# 847635 , Reply# 166 10/25/2015 at 22:55 (3,105 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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| Post# 847636 , Reply# 167 10/25/2015 at 22:55 (3,105 days old) by delaneymeegan (Midwest) | ||
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These recent posts
About CO2 fears, and oil burning, and chimney fires, .... and on and on. Those are all real issues and thank god no one was hurt. I've had or know people who've had equal problems.
My parents first house burned down shortly after they sold it in the mid 60s, because of an oil leak in the furnace. I've seen the mess of creosote when it gets wet, runs down the chimney, and out on the floor. I've heard the stories and seen buried oil tanks that rusted and leaked and caused thousands of dollars in damages. Then there is the "old" basement, filled with a boiler and associated pipes that were covered with asbestos in the 50s or 60s and that whole mess. Ughh. That's tens of thousands of dollars to clean up and remove. As much as I love basements, I don't like them filled with spilled oil, coal dust, asbestos dust, wood dirt..... NO ! I doubt ANYONE does. My parents, well meaning, but not the most practical, used to cut and burn wood for heat. It was awful. I swear the heat exchanger was cracked. The dust, the uncontrollable temperature, the air pollution, the smell, the mice, the work, the chimneys existing at all and the need to frequently clean them, the higher home insurance cost, the fire risk. UGH Electric is so nice. There is no-o-o-o 'going to the basement' to service it because its just a 3'-6' long metal piece tucked compactly in each room. There is no noise, no chimney, no waste, no moving parts, no mice, no asbestos, no big expense, no dust, no ducts to clean, no air pollution, and it's always the perfect temperature just by turning the thermostat. And AND, if you are equipped adequately, it is possible to generate some or all of your own electricity with solar or other means, so you aren't dependent on an outside source. Electric baseboards are cheap. A 36" is about $40. I do have to say, though, I was brought up with natural gas FA furnace and we had central air installed in about 1983. Call it weird (that's a given here at AW.) There was something about the first time the heat was turned on in the Fall. It was like a reassurance that you'd be safe and warm. And there was something about the smell- the oils from the ducting heating up, the subtle scent of singed duct dust, I don't know what it was. I've smelled it in other homes as well. There is that history there. Still, if I were in the market (and actually I am) for a 1000 s.f. ranch type house, in a cold climate, would I focus on the status quo of working out the typical gas furnace and little bit of caulking and storm door here and there, OR would I kick ass and say "Hell no! I'm not doing that every other year" and kick the gas appliances to the curb, shut off the gas, and go all Electric [take a deep breath]? Yes ! And most importantly INSULATE, INSULATE, INSULATE! I already know how well Solar electric works. I WILL NOT allow any gas appliances in my home based on political and safety reasons (even though I love me a nice gas stove) So yeah, its baseboard heating, SUPER INSULATION, solar electric, and for cooling sleave/window unit or mini split with remote controls. Really good insulation also makes cooling in the summer much easier and more efficient. In the typical house, if the inside is fine and I don't need to remove drywall, I'm going to work from the outside removing the siding and all crap fibre glas, reinsulating the walls with ISO foam board cut and fit, then apply at least another 4" to the outside and then reside. The windows would be reduced in size and number and the frames extended for the additional insulation on the wall. Eliminate roof windows, and most large windows. All windows to be DOUBLE double pane windows. So, Two double pane windows at each opening. Like one would acts as a storm window for the other. Ceiling/attic- remove all old material if not iso board and reinsulated with ISO board at least 12", make sure sealed from vapor passage and attic has adequate ventilation. roofing= metal roof. Exterior doors eliminate any patio doors, install an air lock if possible, which is basically a double steel exterior door. Basement sills sealed and insulated, possibly the first floor, also the basement wall down to the frost line (48" in Minnesota). Chimneys and fireplaces= removed. All gas appliance and lines= removed. Electric service= make sure it is up to code with ALL breakers being GFI protected. No 220 volt double pole breakers allowed. Install some lines that can be connected to inverters. Install all 12 volt lighting and 12 volt outlets through out house. These can run directly from battery. Water heating= Kitchen, dedicated 2.5 or 4 gallon under sink 120 volt water heater with timer/switch on wall. Bathroom(s) dedicated 6 or 10 gallon 120 volt water heater with 60 minute timer on wall Laundry- fed off one of the mentioned water heaters or have a 4 gallon 120 volt water heater with 60 minute timer. refrigerator- 4 c.f. dorm style frig freezer - 2 c.f. freezer only dryer- either decorative (not used) or operating at 120 volts with outside air intake. Whoo, I got on a tangent there. Idealist? oh yeah. It's not as easy as throwing money at a furnace installer, but it's kind of a once and done proposition. Insulation Foam board doesn't degrade, unlike fibre glas. So it won't need service in 5 years. Its kind of like would you rather live in a big foam cooler or a big wood box with numerous holes in it (chimneys, leaky windows, poor insulation, etc.) Still, I take my skills for granted and assume others can do it too. That really hurts because, I realize how vulnerable many others are. CLICK HERE TO GO TO delaneymeegan's LINK 
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Post# 847641 , Reply# 168 10/25/2015 at 23:40 (3,105 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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CO2 vs CO Again NOBODY dies from CO2 poisoning, unless they're locked in an airtight box and have CO2 and nothing else piped in, replacing all the air.
People DO DIE from CO, which is carbon monoxide.
Similarly, few people die from ingesting chlorine in the form of NaCl, or common table salt. But the same amount of chlorine as chlorine gas (Cl2) would be lethal.
Maybe it's because of all the media about global warming due to CO2 emissions that people are getting this SO WRONG.
Sorry, didn't mean to shout so much... but somehow CO2 is starting to sound a lot like "cake" to me ;-)
This post was last edited 10/26/2015 at 00:29 | ||
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Post# 847644 , Reply# 169 10/26/2015 at 00:44 (3,105 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Um, here in California with tiered electricity rates (the more you use, the higher the rates) resistance electric heating would be fiendishly expensive. Even with solar panels, it would still drive electric bills very high. Why? Because solar panels are still only about 10% efficient, and while prices have dropped they are still relatively expensive, and you'd likely not be able to generate enough electricity with solar panels to cover the extra cost of resistance electric heating. The conventional wisdom for anyone going solar electric is FIRST to reduce electric consumption to the minimum - with LED lighting, Energy Star appliances (especially refrigeration). It's also a lot cheaper here to heat water with gas than it is with electric. Same for drying clothes and cooking.
There is an alternative - a HVAC heat exchanger type of heating source, which basically runs a refrigeration system backwards and exchanges heat from outdoors to indoors. These work until the outside temp drops below a certain level (around freezing, I think) and then a backup heat source must be used (such as resistance electric or *shudder* gas). A side benefit is that most systems can be used to provide A/C during the summer months. Then I could see solar electric as an option to reduce the bills. | ||
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Post# 847650 , Reply# 171 10/26/2015 at 02:43 (3,105 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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CO2 | ||
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Post# 847651 , Reply# 172 10/26/2015 at 02:49 (3,105 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc) |
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CO2-Carbon Dioxide--CO Carbon Monoxide.CO is really bad.C02 can be bad if there is no oxygen.Ex when that volcanic lake erupted gas to the villagers that lived below it-that was C02 that sufficated them-displaced the air supply.If you have combustion heat or cooking you should have BOTH a smoke detector and CO detector. | ||
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Post# 847663 , Reply# 173 10/26/2015 at 07:45 (3,104 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada) |
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When I bought my house it was all baseboard electric and I hated it. No matter how high I turned up the thermostat I was still cold. Also the house was very dry even with having portable humidifiers. The house was built prior to air exchangers being required. Also electric rates here are VERY high (see my separate thread on electricity rates) so electric baseboard heat is the most expensive form of heating there is. Yes electric baseboards are inexpensive and easy to install compared to other heating types but in the long run it will cost a lot more to operate. I took out all the electric baseboards, replaced them with hot water baseboards and installed a propane fired hot water boiler (no natural gas where I live). The house is much more comfortable now, the heat is silent unless you are in the same room when the boiler is fired up, and the house is more humid...no need for humidifiers any more.
Gary | ||
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Post# 847677 , Reply# 175 10/26/2015 at 09:45 (3,104 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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Coal Vanderbilt University just recently removed their COAL boilers! They used coal for 126 years for supplemental electricity production as well as heating some of the buildings. They replaced it with natural gas boilers and tore down the iconic all brick smoke stack that could be seen from all over campus. CLICK HERE TO GO TO askolover's LINK | ||
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Post# 847679 , Reply# 176 10/26/2015 at 09:53 (3,104 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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The new gas boiler | ||
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Post# 847696 , Reply# 178 10/26/2015 at 11:50 (3,104 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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The auditorium HVAC units at the theater where I work have fresh air intakes. The lobby doesn't. A recurring problem is that the humidity level rises when (not if) a blower contactor goes wonky and gets stuck "on" which causes the blower to keep running when the compressor cycles off, sucking in high-humidity TX air. The auditoriums typically are not checked at end of the day ... or if the idiot little boys who close 99% of the time do a run-through, it completely escapes their attention that the blower is still blowing. The environment is like a swamp the next morning in an affected auditorium, to the point the air could be cut with a knife. | ||
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Post# 847716 , Reply# 184 10/26/2015 at 14:39 (3,104 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada) |
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| Post# 847727 , Reply# 185 10/26/2015 at 15:59 (3,104 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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We had a condo one time that had electric baseboard heat in each room. You could turn on and off each room as needed. So we could keep the bedrooms cooler than the living room, very comfortable. If I remember it wasn't that expensive to run. But then again that was in the late 70's. It even had a heater in the bathroom, so you could prewarm that room before showering. Very nice! | ||
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Post# 847731 , Reply# 186 10/26/2015 at 16:11 (3,104 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Electric Heat
Baseboard or PTAC isn't for everyone. Much depends upon the climate and electric rates.
Perhaps in more temperate parts of the country where temps do not go below say 30F for several months of the year electric could work. But am here to tell you NYC isn't one of those places and with our high electric rates electric as sole heat source is either rare or cursed. While baseboards aren't common PTAC units are becoming more and more as builders of new developments seek to cut costs of owning/running new units. Switching to electric heat provided individual apartments are paying for it themselves takes the cost of heating off the plate for landlord. OTOH if you are the one living in such unit you'll have to make decisions about what to budget for heat. For various reasons steam/hot water heating is phasing out of new apartment construction in NYC. Many of those new glass and sheetrock towers either have PTAC units or central forced air. The appeal of central forced air is obvious in that the same system can deliver AC and or be used to filter and control moisture levels. Some really high end buildings have radiant heating systems say in the bathroom floors to keep that room toasty even when the rest of heating system is off. heatinghelp.com/blog/nyc-one-pip... cooperator.com/article/is-your-bu... cooperator.com/article/heat-witho... | ||
| Post# 847738 , Reply# 188 10/26/2015 at 16:50 (3,104 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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>If natural gas spikes then electric baseboard might prove to be cheaper in the long run.
And it is entirely possible for gas rates to spike. One nightmare: one issue that typically gets considered when selecting a heating system is fuel cost. And that is gambling that over the long haul the cost remains reasonable... The house I grew up in was a good example of a gamble that probably didn't quite work out as planned. It was heated by oil up to the early 1970s. Then the house got converted to electric--presumably because of the energy crisis of the 1970s, coupled with dirt cheap electric rates. This meant both a new furnace, and some baseboard heaters. And also the electric service might have been upgraded. And after all this, at some point the electric rates started going up. Maybe even by the end of the 1970s. I know my parents were conscious ca. 1980 of heating costs. I don't know what happened to oil costs, but I do recall gasoline costs dropping in the early 80s, and I assume heating oil probably was suddenly more attractive than it had been a few years before. It would be interesting to know if my parents would have been better off in the 80s if the house till used oil. It would also be interesting to know what the total long term costs of electric conversion/running might have been vs. the old oil system. One thing I do know: from what I saw of the outside of that house in recent history, it looks like a woodstove got added at some point, and I can't imagine it was added for ambiance. (There are--or were--two fireplaces for that job.) Wood heat would almost certainly be a cold, hard pragmatic move to fight the cost of electric forced air. That house's electric conversion also brings up another point that should be considered. Even if electric did turn out to be overall cheaper long haul, I'm guessing it's highly unlikely that there was any payback for the family who did the conversion. That family probably moved a couple of years after the conversion. Which brings up another payback issue that probably should always be considered: how long is someone likely to stay in a house? Will the cost of the new equipment be paid off? Will it help the house's resale value, and how much? | ||
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Post# 847754 , Reply# 190 10/26/2015 at 17:20 (3,104 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Home resale value
Cannot speak to electric or whatever other source of fuel affecting the price of an existing home. But do know if it is heated with an oil burning boiler here in the NYC area that *can* affect the price and or even kill the deal.
Due to stricter environmental laws/controls the big worry is about oil tanks. If they are buried (as many are in the Northeast) and have been leaking then whomever owns the home is left holding the bag (and bill). Even when a home now has say tanks in the basement that does not mean previously they weren't located outdoors underground. A seller may not even be aware they are there, and or will say "oh we had them disconnected and filled in". Well he may have done the latter but if they leaked for years before. That and not all oil and sludge were removed.... | ||
| Post# 847763 , Reply# 191 10/26/2015 at 18:08 (3,104 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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>Due to stricter environmental laws/controls the big worry is about oil tanks. If they are buried (as many are in the Northeast) and have been leaking then whomever owns the home is left holding the bag (and bill).
And oil tanks was one topic of conversation that cropped up when the house I grew up in when on the market. It had buried tanks, and there was the concern about soil contamination. I remember commenting that it seemed puzzling, because the tanks were apparently empty, and I was told that made it a huge worry:t he empty tank could rust, and there could easily be enough oil left to leak out and contaminate the soil. Fortunately, the mortgage company was happy enough just having a quick inspection. The buyer got someone he knew in the oil business out, and the guy took a very fast look, and that was that. Another fuss: the old oil furnaces were still in the house. One was buried behind the water heater, and one was under the house. It probably didn't seem worthwhile removing either when the house was converted to electric (and the one behind the water heater would probably require the water heater to come out--so why not just say: "I'll remove it whenever the water heater needs to be replaced.) And who really cares if a furnace is collecting dust in the crawlspace? Who, except the mortgage company of course. So the oil tank guy went and looked at the oil furnace behind the water heater, and said it looked like it was all there. If necessary, he said, it could probably be fired up with a small jug of oil just to see if it would run. Fortunately, the mortgage company was happy with the visual inspection. I wonder now how much dust would have gotten blown out had that furnace turned on for the first time in 15+ years? The entire system was probably intact, but totally inactive (the ducts weren't used since that part of the house had baseboard heaters put in). | ||
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Post# 847808 , Reply# 193 10/26/2015 at 21:39 (3,104 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Old Furnaces
As mentioned previously you'll find many in both domestic and commercial buildings currently in use.
In some if not all cases the things went into the structure before the walls went up soon as foundations pretty much were laid. Then you can have things that were built around them since. Either way getting them out would require either cutting apart and bringing out in bits. That or perhaps making an opening in wall or somewhere large enough to get the thing out. Scrappers tend to leave boilers alone because they usually do not have any copper. Maybe other types furnaces or water heaters could be another story | ||
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Post# 847810 , Reply# 194 10/26/2015 at 21:42 (3,104 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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tradition is sleeping with your bedroom window open ..
That is actually how one prefers to sleep. Windows open, heat off and under a eiderdown! Can't beat it! Of course getting out of bed the next morning or at anytime during the night is a bit of a challenge. *LOL* Soon as you put a leg or arm from under the duvet you realize how freezing the room/house is.
Growing up had an older family member (aunt) who was very old school. She turned off the boilers at night. Not turn the heat down, but shut off the boiler. As one can imagine myself and the cousins were *NOT* thrilled at having to spend nights there during the winter. You woke up to a house that was freezing. Odd that one should prefer sleeping that way now... Read somewhere that sleeping in a cool room is actually better for one's health. However cold does slow down the body's circulation. Operating rooms are kept chilly for that purpose among others. It is one reason why post-op wards are loaded with blankets. | ||
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Post# 847820 , Reply# 195 10/26/2015 at 22:27 (3,104 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine) |
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Post# 847837 , Reply# 196 10/26/2015 at 23:36 (3,104 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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Safety gas vs electric I remember back in the 80's our local mall in Alabama had an energy expo with all types of vendors. The gas company had pamphlets saying that gas was much safer than electricity because you would smell a leak long before there was enough to explode but electricity is silent and lurks inside the walls or attic and all it takes is a mouse causing a frayed wire to start a fire. Didn't mention anything about carbon monoxide poisoning though. I'm inclined to agree to an extent. I remember once when I was pretty young, my dad worked 4-12 shift and my sister was at a friends house. We had just had the furnace serviced. It was about 10pm and Mother and I were about to go to bed. She called me into her bedroom saying "I smell gas"! I got down close to the vent in their room as it was right off the furnace under the house and I smelled it too. We were both nervous and she really didn't know how to turn it off...but I did as Daddy had shown me. So, here we go outside in pajamas and coats with flashlights and a wrench and I just turned it all off. Fast forward to 2015.....I got up one evening (work nights) and just as I approached my door, I smelled gas. Apparently Tony had leaned up against one of the knobs on the range and turned it just enough to release the gas but not spark. The whole house smelled, but nothing came of it. Both times the odor was pretty strong...and that old furnace had a standing pilot...but it didn't explode.
On the other hand......I can't tell you how many homes I've heard or read about where the electrical system started the fire. My uncle's house burned to the ground from an electrical problem. Several houses in his vicinity had melted wires and fried appliances at the same time his house burned. The power company had been working on the system around there, don't know what they did to it. Tony's mother's house caught fire when he was younger and still living at home. He was in the shower, the fire started in the kitchen from some problem in the wiring. He said he heard the smoke alarm and took off running out of the house wearing nothing but a towel. The house was saved, just smoked everything.
Back in 2000 or so, gas prices did spike...it wasn't unusual for people even here to have $300-$400 gas bills. That was before I had signed up for the bill averaging where a person pays pretty much the same amount each month based on the previous year's usage with minimal fluctuations month to month. I just bought a 240V electric fan forced heater and cut the gas furnace back. That was the ONLY time electricity was cheaper than gas here. It didn't take long to return to normal and now gas is super cheap again.
My old furnace had a cracked heat exchanger. It was a miracle I found it before it found me dead, but it still didn't turn me off of gas. I now have multiple CO detectors in the house. The replacement package furnace has stainless heat exchangers with lifetime warranty. | ||
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Post# 847874 , Reply# 198 10/27/2015 at 03:04 (3,104 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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I caught it while cleaning the house. I was down cleaning baseboards in the living room by the vent that is first off the furnace. It had just cut off and I smelled that faint whiff of mercaptan come through the vent. I turned the Tstat so it would come back on and went outside. It had a window so one could see the combustion chambers. It had some flame rollout but didn't trip. I knew it was condemned to death. The furnace man came out with a flexible mirror and we looked up inside and could see the cracks. It was around 15 years old, but it was a cheap Weatherking BOL, very inefficient but cold AC. Hope this 15 year old Goodman Amana keeps going. | ||
| Post# 847877 , Reply# 199 10/27/2015 at 03:30 (3,104 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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The Best Older Gas furnaces were Bryants and Janitrols, I know of several from the 50s still in good operating condition...HEAVY! QUALITY! | ||
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Post# 847953 , Reply# 202 10/27/2015 at 15:27 (3,103 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Oh, I don't know about repairs and service costs being all that great with a forced air gas fired furnace system.
This here home had a 17 year old forced air gas furnace when I bought it. 18 years later, it's now 35 yo and it's never needed a service visit. I did retro fit it with better duct sealing and insulation, and upgraded the filter holders (they are below grates in the floor in the house) but that was not directly related to keeping the furnace happy.
As in other areas, one would have to be somewhat insane to try to heat a home in California with resistance electric. Rates zoom up to over $.30/KWh when you get over about 600 KWh/ month. Insane.
As for heat exchangers, they can be set up to provide aux heat with gas as well as electric. And I imagine that gas could be natural if your home is piped for it, or propane if not.
A good idea is using ground water for the heat exchanging medium. While outside air can dip well below freezing, ground water is typically no colder than about 50F. So it would be more efficient. But it does mean drilling a well and ensuring it's always below the water table, and there's sufficient well volume or water flow to ensure the water doesn't drop in temp or freeze. And of course the associated plumbing. I suppose there are also ground heat exchangers that use a gridwork of plumbing in the soil at a certain depth.
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Post# 849862 , Reply# 204 11/5/2015 at 00:07 (3,095 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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Okay, have any of you thermostat collectors ever seen THIS setup? Wow.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO Supersuds's LINK 
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Post# 849892 , Reply# 205 11/5/2015 at 07:55 (3,094 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Glenwood Base Heater Anyone | ||
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Post# 849937 , Reply# 206 11/5/2015 at 10:59 (3,094 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Supersuds,
I expect that indoor/outdoor thermostat duo was great for the poorly insulated/leaky homes of old. With the advent of better insulation, tighter house envelopes, and dual pane windows, I suppose its usefulness was greatly diminished.
Which reminds me. Time to close the high wall vent and low wall windows in the enclosed patio. The heating season here has officially begun with a recent cold snap.
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Post# 850034 , Reply# 208 11/5/2015 at 22:11 (3,094 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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Post# 850035 , Reply# 209 11/5/2015 at 22:26 (3,094 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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I have an outdoor temp sensor on my heat pump. It allows setting an outdoor temp above which the auxiliary strips are locked-out from running (except during defrost cycles). This makes for more efficient operation during setback recovery in situations when the room temp is a degree or two short at the target time. The thermostat would otherwise trigger the auxiliary to quickly make-up the difference when running 15 mins or so longer on the compressor would take care of it without involving the high-current strips. | ||
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Post# 850036 , Reply# 210 11/5/2015 at 22:26 (3,094 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Outdoor Temperature Resets
Are very much a part of most all modern steam and hot water heating systems, especially for large multi-family buildings. You see those metal "twinkie" shaped boxes all over NYC and for good reason.
ODRs allow for finer control of how hot the boiler heats water. Warmer temperatures outdoors means you don't need that much heat indoors thus you can use lower water temps (subject to the aquastat settings). CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK | ||
| Post# 850106 , Reply# 211 11/6/2015 at 09:33 (3,093 days old) by Davey7 (Chicago) | ||
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Outdoor Sensors Outdoor sensors (and weather data) also allow for more sophisticated thermostats/controllers to anticipate heat needs (the heating load) and changing indoor temps and adjust before there is a noticeable change inside. | ||
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Post# 850147 , Reply# 212 11/6/2015 at 15:51 (3,093 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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Post# 854690 , Reply# 214 12/2/2015 at 11:07 (3,067 days old) by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA) |
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Radiator heat control devices Finally a push for widespread use of radiator heat control devices in NYC. CLICK HERE TO GO TO suburbanmd's LINK | ||
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Post# 855268 , Reply# 221 12/6/2015 at 02:29 (3,064 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Stopped reading the above linked article
When it became clear it was written by yet another Feel Good Tree Hugger that knew little about the subject matter and hadn't bothered to research further.
No one installs oversized boilers today; by and large the ones in most NYC multi-family/apartment buildings are the same units installed when the place went up. Soon as the basements are finished the boilers are/were hoisted down into place and the rest goes up around them. There are hundreds of boilers in NYC buildings near 100 years old (if not older). Installed back in the 1910's, 1920's, 1930's, etc... (if not before) all mostly burned coal. When the Clean Air Act and other things prevented that they switched to oil. Many now are either dual fuel (natural gas or oil) or just natural gas. If and or when those boilers are replaced they aren't coming out because it isn't possible. Well you could get them out if you chopped them up into bits and brought them out via basement doors. While some buildings have heeded then mayor Bloomberg's push (now de Blazio's as well) to install newer more "efficient" condensing boilers, many haven't taken the bait. Why? For the same reasons that woman reporter didn't bother researching; costs of a new system versus payback isn't worth the bother. In rental non-market rate buildings (close to 70% of NYC rental housing falls under some sort of local rent control) a landlord must apply to the government to recoup any costs of a major capital improvement such as a boiler. Maybe it will be granted, maybe not. Tenants surely will fight against it because their rents go up. So why bother? Leave the old thing down there and maybe install some modifications to make the system more efficient. So yes the boilers are oversized, but as noted above that was the rule/statute/expectation when those heating systems were installed. Every home, office or apartment building had oversized boilers to account for "ventilation" if not leaving windows wide open even in winter. This grew out of the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic. Health officials convinced governments and everyone else that fresh air was needed to keep down the risk of disease. So local zoning codes mandated heating systems that could keep a building a 70F even when outdoors was freezing and the windows were wide open. This is the reason why persons have their windows open all over NYC apartments. The system is sized for conditions that no longer exist such as better fitting and energy saving windows and insulation. | ||
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Post# 855317 , Reply# 225 12/6/2015 at 11:23 (3,063 days old) by cuffs054 (MONTICELLO, GA) |
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Gush, I've never had a humidifier although I need one. On yours doesn't the heat of the furnace "redry" the air as it goes through the heat exchanger? Can/should a humidifer ever be mounted on supply duct? | ||
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Post# 859158 , Reply# 227 12/30/2015 at 17:23 (3,039 days old) by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA) |
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Dead Men's Steam School In New Yorker magazine CLICK HERE TO GO TO suburbanmd's LINK | ||
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Post# 1009214 , Reply# 229 9/30/2018 at 20:26 (2,034 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI) |
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Hooooo-boooyyyy! Here it is: Summer just ended & now the wife wants the FURNACE ON!!!!
I'm not even ready to turn the heat on in the car... I pointedly told her I should change the furnace filter first, but it seemed after those few runnings, I could not catch it at that first "change of seasons" until right when I quickly got home from work, after buying a couple filters on the way home, right at the time the nearby hardware store was closing & then rushed to the basement, right from there...! -- Dave | ||
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Post# 1009237 , Reply# 230 10/1/2018 at 00:22 (2,034 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc) |
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Out my way its still cooling-have the AC on!Won't need the heater for a couple of months yet. | ||
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