Thread Number: 64218  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Continued Adventures with the Whirlpool TotalCoverage DW
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Post# 867965   2/20/2016 at 00:25 (2,984 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I finally bought a waterproof sport cam, and it actually wasn't a GoPro. YI is apparently a company that also makes "GoPro" style cameras that had excellent reviews and even recommendations over the actual GoPros, and I must say, I'm delighted. It has built in WiFi that links directly to your phone, and the app that controls it is gorgeous and clean. I've been watching live footage of the inside of the dishwasher because it streams it right to the phone!!! And on that note...

I just compiled the dishwasher video to END ALL DISHWASHER VIDEOS!! At least for new Whirlpools anyway. You all can keep your Samsungs and GEs.. >:)

It's exporting and uploading now so I'll post a link soon. I also figured I'd start a new thread since the "Gorgeous new Whirlpool coming my way" thread isn't relevant anymore because while it is gorgeous, it's no longer coming my way lol. So I can just give updates here.

Post# 867968 , Reply# 1   2/20/2016 at 01:26 (2,984 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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And here it is!!!! And of course, make sure to set the resolution up to 1080 since apparently embedded videos don't automatically do so. :)


Post# 867982 , Reply# 2   2/20/2016 at 04:53 (2,984 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        

Good videography.
So this is Whirlpools latest spray arm design for their "point voyager" dishwasher. Does it have the scrub zone at the back like higher end Kenmore and Kitchen aid models do? Three red spinning jets.

Post# 867984 , Reply# 3   2/20/2016 at 05:25 (2,984 days old) by delaneymeegan (Midwest)        

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I appreciate your work.   All you need now is a light in there, so one can see more detail.

Post# 867985 , Reply# 4   2/20/2016 at 05:44 (2,984 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

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Fantastic video.
Better lighting than mine.
What did you use as light?
And what did you use to render the video?
I've struggled getting 1080 onto YouTube.

Funny, but I'm jealous of your Whilrlpool now!

Post# 867988 , Reply# 5   2/20/2016 at 05:58 (2,984 days old) by A440 ()        

Great Video and Camera! 

Such an interesting dishwasher!  I wonder how it changes the spray patterns on the lower wash arm? 

It does look like a very strong wash.

Thanks for the video.

Post# 867997 , Reply# 6   2/20/2016 at 07:38 (2,984 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Andrew, excellent photography angles.  Fascinating to see the different angles of the jets and the different combinta4itons of which holes are used as th4e pattern changes.  I have to admit the stopping & starting of the pump every minute would drive me nuts.  So much for zen-like, tranquil inducing dishwashing.  I assumed mine would do the same thing, but it just has the distribution valve changes spray zones without stopping the pump.  My old one would stop while the valve changed to activate the TZ area. 

Post# 868001 , Reply# 7   2/20/2016 at 08:11 (2,984 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Nice video! 👍 I wish the jets on the back were angled up to wash tall items like Whirlpool suggest here. Love the idea of the WiFi camera.

Post# 868002 , Reply# 8   2/20/2016 at 08:12 (2,984 days old) by A440 ()        


Did you change dishwashers?  I remember you had a very nice Kenmore Elite that you replaced your GE with.

Post# 868004 , Reply# 9   2/20/2016 at 08:19 (2,984 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

This should be nominated for an award for videography. Thank you very much.

Post# 868013 , Reply# 10   2/20/2016 at 09:56 (2,984 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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On a different note: when can we expect more Bravos videos? :)

Post# 868025 , Reply# 11   2/20/2016 at 11:40 (2,983 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
spray arm power

Which spray arm was more powerful? Was it the bottom or top one?

Post# 868029 , Reply# 12   2/20/2016 at 12:17 (2,983 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        

I like how the spray action is continuous when switching arms. This dishwasher was better than I expected from a filtration dishwasher. Next time, I would like to see a heavily soiled load with better lighting so we can get a better look of how it takes on dishwashing challenges. Thanks Andrew.

Post# 868042 , Reply# 13   2/20/2016 at 15:03 (2,983 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Thanks guys! :) Let's see, I'm going to try to respond to everyone's questions and such....

@vacerator - It's actually no longer a Point Voyager, though WP designed machines still use basically the same tub and rack designs. As far as I know, they are naming this design the "Tahoe" from what I've found in diagnostics literature, and upon viewing parts for the machine. Most people call it the Resource Saver or "manual filter" design, though in my experience so far, there hasn't been a thing to clean out of that filter. Also, the blue bars at the back (to the right in the first part of the video) are the PowerScour/TargetClean jets. Whirlpool has never implemented a spinning disc version for the WP and KitchenAid machines, because it's a feature Sears-Kenmore trademarked for their rebadged machines.

@Johnb300m - Thanks! I have an LED light bar and a small LED flash light that I sealed in FoodSaver bags. Placing them is a bit tricky, because while you'd think a stainless interior would reflect the light everywhere, this stainless has a bit of a dark tint to it, so I had to make sure to point them in such a way that it would light where the camera was pointing without glaring into it. I used iMovie to thread them together, and exported them in 1080p high quality. Using the "ProRes" setting compressed it too much and made it grainy.

@A440 - Thank you! I'll try to grab some pics or find the ones I may have taken already, but the lower arm has a gear system inside that moves a valve bar slowly back and forth. The hub port that the arm locks to has a stationary pinion gear that causes the gears in the arm to rotate as the arm itself rotates from water pressure. As far as I can tell, the only jets that never closed are the two propulsion jets at each end, and the two on the underside that spray along the heating element, and another that points towards the middle to sweep water into the filter cup.

@appnut - Actually, the stopping and starting only seems to occur during the first couple or prewashes, or when 1-Hour Wash is chosen. I used a combo of Normal and 1Hr. Wash to catch the footage. When no soil is sensed, it seems to only do one prewash and then pops the detergent cup open and the heater kicks on, so I had to be strategic to make sure the water wouldn't get too warm for the camera. The machine also doesn't seem to like being interrupted, so when trying to change camera positions, it would seem to induce a pulsing behavior that I'm assuming is its way of sensing any extra soil from an added dish or something. It was easier just to cancel the cycle and start it over each time. Typically in my experience so far with using only Normal or Sensor cycle, it only pauses on and off during the first 10 minutes or so, and not very often, and then seems to never turn off the rest of the cycle besides drains and fills. It's honestly so darn quiet that it's really hard to tell what's happening in the first place. I am surprised that it runs so constantly though, because the motor has that X minutes on/X minutes off rating on it, and yet it never stops, so I'm guessing they have some way of keeping it cooled or perhaps it's actually running at a lower rate to be able to handle such long trips. If that's the case, I'd love to see how much power it would have running at full blast with a tub full of water.

Also, my grandparents have a Kenmore Elite Voyager that sounds like what you describe as your old one. Stainless steel, premium adjustable racks, red TurboZone spray discs and rinse aid cap, etc. When I had to disassemble it to clean gunk and debris from the grinder chamber, I discovered there are steel balls in the bend of the TurboZone supply tube, and underneath at the back there seems to be a solenoid system, so apparently it just magnetically kicks those balls to block water to the upper arm and diverts it to the TurboZone, which means the lower arm would still be running. I'm going to try catching inside footage of their machine next!

@logixx - That would be quite cool. The European version of Whirlpool's dishwashers seem to have a pretty serious PowerScour spray system, and also a pretty serious pump motor! I also find it interesting that they still call them PowerClean models, though they also make sure to add the 6th Sense nomenclature. Also, I did order a tripod for the little camera, so that will mean I can finally get better videos of the Bravos XL. :) I'll have to save up some good piles of laundry haha.

@GELaundry4ever - That's a good question. I would assume the lower arm is more powerful because 100% of the water pressure is going to it when active; the upper arm also has the upper spinner so water is being distributed a little more. I do think the upper arm seems to have the look of being more aggressive because it has great wash action and volume, but I'm thinking because the holes on the lower arm are smaller and also being alternated, more pressure is coming from each hole. If you notice when the lower arm is running, the water is hitting the camera pretty aggressively even in the top rack. I do notice when listening to the machine from the outside, the lower arm is what can be heard more clearly. My vote would be that the lower arm is more powerful, but the upper arm gets the award for being the most entertaining. :)

I may try to catch footage of a dirty load, but just the prewashes of course. The waterproof case on this camera seems very rugged, so I'll just have to make sure to rinse it off really well when pulling it out of the machine. Maybe RainX treating the lens will keep any food oils from clouding the view.

Post# 868048 , Reply# 14   2/20/2016 at 16:43 (2,983 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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that was a great video Andrew. I've always wondered why my point voyagers start/stop during cycles, but I never really questioned it.

I did not realize the lower wash arm had different sprays that rotated through the wash arm....Like at one point, it's more powerful in the middle, then the ends, then close to the middle..

It's weird how that has a removable filter, yet there's nothing on it after all this time, don't you think? You would think there would be at least some food particles on it, especially since you just scrape, not rinse.

I can't believe I've had my Maytag 2 years this June, and I have yet to do a video inside. But no way would it as good as this video.

Post# 868234 , Reply# 15   2/21/2016 at 19:21 (2,982 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I have a surprise for you gorgeous sugar blossoms...

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Post# 868239 , Reply# 16   2/21/2016 at 19:58 (2,982 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Success. Having a busy past couple of days left not very dirty dishes, but there were plates with marinara and ranch dip from pizza with friends and bowls from cereal and oatmeal that all sat for a couple of days, and mostly just glasses and cups because we drink water like crazy around here. But anyway, since we're out right now and the video only just published, here's the link to a new, fully loaded with dishes, dishwasher video. :)

This one is continuous, from the point of hitting Start until the cam sent a notification to my phone that it reached 15% battery (Wifi streaming to the phone drains it very quickly but I had to keep an eye on it to make sure it didn't fall). I took it out after a good bit into the main wash, because it had already started heating the water (yes, the main wash is heated without selecting any options, and gets hot enough to billow steam out the door when opened midway through, so I'm not sure where people get the idea that Whirlpool uses lukewarm wash water. I mean seriously...). This gives a good view of the pre washes as well, and certainly debunks the theory that these new machines "spit" on the dishes, and that the pumps constantly start and stop.

This post was last edited 02/21/2016 at 21:05
Post# 868258 , Reply# 17   2/21/2016 at 22:26 (2,982 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Murando Scorsese

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Well done Andrew!

Thanks for new appliance cinematic goals!

Post# 868267 , Reply# 18   2/21/2016 at 23:27 (2,982 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
exceptional wash action

That's some great wash action! Next time, you should do normal and high temp wash with an exterior view so we can hear just how quiet this dishwasher is.

Post# 868272 , Reply# 19   2/22/2016 at 02:01 (2,982 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

After seeing the video of the WP dishwasher-may just get one!!Does a NICE job!!!the spray is more powerful than you are led to beleive.noting like the in the washer camera shots!!Liked how you could watch the stuff washed off the plate that you could clearly see!

Post# 868370 , Reply# 20   2/22/2016 at 12:12 (2,981 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I must admit, this machine has surprised and impressed me from day one. I was so confident that once I got it, I would hate it, because at first glance, the pump looks tiny and the holes in the spray arms look so small. Clearly, size really doesn't matter in this case, lol. I didn't expect the dishes to be practically clean within the first prewash or two, because that marinara was quite dry, as was the oatmeal on the bowls.

I really do think that this dishwasher is designed for much dirtier dishes than what the typical family produces, and even dirtier than ours with only scraping. Something just doesn't add up with and Consumer Reports' ratings for this particular machine; a majority reason why I was so skeptical and worried in the first place. I think I'm going to just overlook their scores from now on. They gave my Maytag Voyager a horrible score, and yet it would scrub burnt soils off in the normal cycle and had not a single flaw except for the horrid tiered upper rack. They gave this Whirlpool a similar score for cleaning, and I've yet to have a speck of food on any item at all, nor anything to clean off the filter, even after the Peanut Butter Games of 2015/16. What I found interesting is that the Kenmore twin of this machine got a higher score, despite having identical wash systems, and the video they took of that KM showed that their curved upper arm design is less than impressive. Me thinks money has a convenient way of talking...

Moving on, it's still hard for me to wrap my head around the amount of wash action going on behind the door for the thing to be as silent as it is. I actually find the upper arm to be my favorite. I'd dare to say that it may be more powerful than the upper arm in the Voyager design, possibly because they seem to have alleviated the water leaks that the upper arm supply manifold had in those older designs. The lower arm isn't as "entertaining" aside from the alternating jets, but you have to remember that the same volume of water going to the upper arms is being forced through only 5-6 jets at a time in only the lower arm. Pair that with the tiny diameter of the holes, and you have individual pressure washers riding around down there. If you pay attention to the sound of the water hitting the camera, and the water hitting and beating the crap out of that upper arm, you can see how concentrated they are. I've had bowls clink before on the lower rack, plastic cups flipped, and even had light plastic items flipped in the upper rack as well. If you pay attention to the last part of the video after the camera slipped a little, you can see a glass in the left bottom corner that is being moved by the lower arm. And I find that delightful.

Post# 868377 , Reply# 21   2/22/2016 at 12:58 (2,981 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
3 things

1. I really can't make out the silverware spray bar. It should be running together with the upper arm, am I right?

2. The spray management is amazing. Takeing a look at the side walls, there is basicly no water running down them in comparison to the loaded areas of the upper rack. That leads me to support my impression that the prewashes focus more onto the upper arm:
Because the prewashes play a big role in soil and load sensing as well as soaking, and the upper arm basicly sprays the upper rack directly (soaking and removing some soil) and the bottom rack indirectly due to the water dropping down, only "closed" items like upside down pots and such require direct spray from the bottom arm. Simply because the natural water movement can't reach their "soiled" sides. Thus, the upper arm may be used longer.
Only "sad" thing: The detergent pack did not properly drop down, thus dissolving verry slowly.

3. You really made me interested in super over soiled loads. Maybe you just can grab some casserole dish, divide it in 4 sections, cover them in sugar, cheese, spinach and maybe something like oil, burn this in in the oven, and give it a run? Just to see where the limits are. Or maybe to see if upper rack, lower rack and the special spray zone actually matter.

This machine seems the closest to true EU efficency and working without being a platform that is actually sold over here.

That being sad, DW as well as dryers had a huge efficency improvement over here in the past 10 years due to the EU labels. They basicly seized in efficency improvement since Bosch introduced the 6 liter DW, Zeolith drying (A+++ efficency in DW) and their A+++ dryers. Washers however are just about that mark, but when we thought A+++ -50% was all the hype: We are at -60% now. That is a whole of 0.5kWh or such numbers for a freaking 18 pound load.

Sorry for going of topic there...

Post# 868388 , Reply# 22   2/22/2016 at 14:50 (2,981 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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@henene4 - The silverware spray bar is its own zone. It activates when the lower arm switches to the upper. It's hard to see well at that angle because the water blends with the shine of the stainless steel, but it also only runs for a few seconds between the lower and upper arm switch. Towards the end of the main wash and at a couple of points during the final rinse, it stops at the silverware bar for a much longer period. I think it was around 3 minutes each time as near as I could tell. I'm assuming the diverter valve motor only rotates in one direction, so it always switches in the same sequence: upper arm --> TurboZone --> lower arm --> silverware spray bar --> upper arm.

I was concerned with the detergent cup when first getting the machine, because it's so deep. It does, however, seal along the bottom and sides when the door is closed, and allows water to drain into the cup to help detergent begin dissolving but without leaking any of it out prematurely. I have noticed that with the upper rack lowered (I keep it in the upper position), the jets of the upper arm are aimed more into the cup, so I'm sure it would be cleared out more quickly. All in all, I've never had a bit of residue leftover after a cycle, and with the long main wash period, there's more than enough time to dissolve and clear it out. On a side note, I kind of chuckled seeing it open the first time because it's almost like it vomits water and chunks of detergent, lol.

I'll have to strongly consider that experiment. I'll be interested in testing whether the lower arm can handle it or if the TurboZone really does a better job, and also if the 8-hour Soak&Clean cycle and it's very extended prewash can knock it out. I have put a clear glass 9x13 in front of the TurboZone with burnt cheese and sauce from lasagna, and I was amazed there wasn't a speck left, so a full on experiment may be in order. :)

Post# 868461 , Reply# 23   2/22/2016 at 20:25 (2,981 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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I have never owned a dishwasher that could totally clean my crock pot until this Kenmore Elite.  I made queso dip in it for Super Bowl.  I put it in the dishwasher facing the TZ jets and it came out spotless.  I was stunned.  I made a tuna casserole (without noodles, but stuffing, and did the same.  It didn't come out totally clean, but made a significant improvement over what the vessel was.  5 or 6 days later, I ran the dishwasher again, again on pots/pans, but without TZ, and it came out totally clean.  I was amazed.  So Andrew's assessment is right on. 

Post# 868463 , Reply# 24   2/22/2016 at 20:37 (2,981 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Peanut Butter Games

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of 2015/2016 - lmao

Great video...Andrew - after reading your last post about consumer reports, it made me think of how LONG it's been since I've read anything they have published, other than the occasional post on here where people will comment on a review they gave a particular machine. I didn't realize they said your point voyager was horrible, and your current machine.

The noise level and the filter not needing to be cleaned are indeed strange. You would think you could hear something with what's going on inside.

Incidentally - sort of off topic - but do you notice the wash arms on the new Maytags? They look to be made of some sort of metal. I wonder what the difference is?

Post# 868465 , Reply# 25   2/22/2016 at 21:11 (2,981 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
I'd like to know.

I'd like to know the same thing.

Post# 868474 , Reply# 26   2/22/2016 at 22:07 (2,981 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
New maytags

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I was checking out the new Maytag dishwashers before I bought my GE profile. The Maytag washer arms are indeed stainless steel. They seem to have the same spray hole pattern as the other whirlpool family machines. They also have that tiered upper rack that you fellas oh so love. ;)
They seem to have a much larger pump, similar to a motor and pump that are in the clean water wash kitchen aids. It must be powerful enough to drive a hard food disposer. They also have an accumulator filter chamber like the old point voyagers.

Post# 868479 , Reply# 27   2/22/2016 at 23:10 (2,981 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Alright, big test time. I did as henene4 said, and sprinkled sugar and cheese, and smeared pasta sauce in a glass baking pan and baked at 425 until it was nicely scorched. No Pam here. Along with that, I whipped up a packet of the nasty pumpkin spice instant oatmeal that no one has touched since Autumn, and microwaved it until well done and allowed it to sit and dry. Along with that, I'm throwing in the casserole dish from potatoes au gratin with a little scorching around the edges, a mixing bowl with bits of garlic and broccoli and spices still stuck, and all the large utensils and items I normally would have washed by hand because they take up large amounts of space.

Just for sport, I took the filter cup and plate out, and despite having nothing to clean off, I scrubbed them with hot water and soap to make sure they're spotless before running a load of nasties like this.

I think for this run, I'll use the Heavy cycle, for the first time since owning this, and also because it's only fair for this much soil. Perhaps if I try it again I'll angle it towards the TargetClean jets and see how using that option improves at all.

I DO NOT expect this baking dish to come out spotless or even close, and even if it's still filthy, it doesn't change the fact that this machine is an exceptional dishwasher and cleans beautifully with reasonable soils. I honestly wouldn't expect it to come clean even in the PowerClean at max settings, simply because the cycle time isn't long enough for the detergent to perform properly.

If it does do well, however...I may just take out some insane insurance on the thing because I'll want to keep the thing as long as I live, not that I don't already feel that way now...haha.

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Post# 868558 , Reply# 28   2/23/2016 at 11:17 (2,980 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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I feel there's a new challenge coming up on 👍

Post# 868603 , Reply# 29   2/23/2016 at 15:34 (2,980 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Okay, so I meant to run it this morning but had to run errands, and I wanted to be here while the machine was running to hear how different the Heavy cycle sounds than Normal. I did leave the machine completely open all night to make sure everything was well dried on.

It's just finished now and I've only propped the door open to allow the steam to escape and the dishes flash dry, and after it cools I'll open it up with my camera in hand. I smell a tiny bit of burnt cheese smell but it's not bad. It's masked by the smell of the Cascade rinse aid anyway.

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Post# 868604 , Reply# 30   2/23/2016 at 15:43 (2,980 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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You've got to be sh*tting me.

Okay so the first thing I noticed was the spoon with dried oatmeal still on it, but everything else in the silverware basket was clean. No yibbles along the top edge of the door or anything. I've been experimenting with keeping the stemware dividers flipped up, so I wonder would the spoon have come more clean if held up in the line of fire from the silverware bar more.


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Post# 868606 , Reply# 31   2/23/2016 at 15:46 (2,980 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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...I roll out the rack to find this.

Just a bit of char left along the edges but the bottom is squeaky clean. And I'm honestly scratching my head. No spray Pam or oil or anything, just sugar, tomato sauce, and cheese scorched on in the oven. I'm honestly in shock. I didn't expect near any of it to come off that well.

The round casserole was spotless as well, but to be fair there was only a bit of scorching, and that dish had been greased before baking in it.

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Post# 868607 , Reply# 32   2/23/2016 at 15:50 (2,980 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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The rest of the load was without a speck. The bowl full of caked-on dried oatmeal that I put in the top rack was without a trace of oats, and everything with a recessed bottom, like the large mixing bowl, had just a bit of crystal clear water. Even the large utensils loaded underneath were free of any yiblets. I half expected the ceiling to have at least a little bit of crusty around the upper sprayer, like our old GE Nautilus always used to have, but still, nothing.

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Post# 868609 , Reply# 33   2/23/2016 at 15:53 (2,980 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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The only thing questionable thus far is the little chunk of oatmeal stuck right at the opening grate of the round filter cup. I'm guessing it had moved somewhat out of range of the sweeper jets under the wash arm and just didn't have enough time to break apart.

I have not yet pulled out the filter cup. I want to unload everything first in case there are any chunks of anything to fall out. Surprisingly all the glass feels squeaky clean and has no residue that I can feel or see, and the plastic cups don't have any odor or smell to them at all. I'm sure that chunk of oatmeal is the CLEANEST chunk of oatmeal in ALL THE LAND.

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Post# 868618 , Reply# 34   2/23/2016 at 16:28 (2,980 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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I'm not confident the GE Profile could come out like that.

Post# 868620 , Reply# 35   2/23/2016 at 16:36 (2,980 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Despite the chunk of oatmeal, there is amazingly nothing really in the filter cup besides speckles here and there. The water has a bit of a cloudy look but the camera makes it look much murkier than it actually is. It's almost positively just rinse aid residue. Even the PowerClean and Voyager had a whitish tinge to their residual water sometimes. I was at least expecting pieces of burnt cheese or something to be stuck, but alas, none at all. The drain port and pump impeller are evidently very well set up for handling heavy quantities of soil caught in the filter cup.

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Post# 868621 , Reply# 36   2/23/2016 at 16:40 (2,980 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I'd give anything to work at a company like Consumer Reports or, because there is evidently something horrendously wrong with their testing methods. Their sole complaint about this machine was its inability to clean away baked on soils on the Heavy cycle. Ironically their test was lasagna sauce, i.e. cheese and tomato sauce.

Now if you'll excuse me I'll just be marching on down to the insurance agency. :P

Post# 868636 , Reply# 37   2/23/2016 at 17:12 (2,980 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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.I do wonder to myself how mine would have done with the Jetclean steam that uses over 12 gallons of water and runs almost 4 hours, but I'm thinking I don't have the patience to do this. Whirlpool should post this on their site...

I do know that even the powerful dishwashers of the past would have probably left a little bit on there like your machine did...clean enough to make it easy to clean the residue left as opposed to if your were hand washing..I've had this happen in the past with Kenmore and GE from the 80s 90s with something that was really burnt on/baked on....It comes clean enough to make it easy to finish off the cleaning and put it away.

Post# 868639 , Reply# 38   2/23/2016 at 17:20 (2,980 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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AAAANNNNDREWWWWWWW!!!!  Welcome to the world of total carefree dishwasher loading.  No more judicious scraping before loading!!  I'm even more proud of you.  I long ago figured the only way you were ever going to load a dishwasher like this was for me to hog tie you to a chair and have you sit there and watch me do it lol.  Your curiosity of design, engineering, and performance allowed you to really let go so to speak.  (Now you understand why I BobLoad laundry & dishware).  You deserve a new certification level that I had to come up with to match this.  BobLoad Extreme Extroardinare (and I'm not sure that's even worthy enough).  If you didn't use high-temp option with Heavy, I'm wonder what further cleaning would have resulted. 

Post# 869088 , Reply# 39   2/25/2016 at 16:55 (2,978 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Holy crap!! Bob!! I feel honored!! I promise to wear my ribbon proudly and do it justice! :D I also wondered how the results would have improved if I had used any options with the cycle, but for that to be just Heavy on default with no heat dry? Pretty incredible to me. The next time I try that test I'll add Hi Temp Wash/Sani Rinse. And then possibly a run with the dish facing the TurboZone jets to see what kind of difference that makes.

I did wash the rest of that pan that night. The charred parts flaked off with my fingernail like pieces of concrete, but the rest had to be cleared off with Barkeeper's Friend. NO dishwasher was going to get the rest of that off. Not that I expected those results in the first place though. That sugar and cheese was rock solid; I couldn't scratch it off with my fingernail without the possibility of tearing my skin in the process.

I am quite happy with this machine. I honestly can't wrap my head around how underrated and disliked Whirlpool seems to be by some people, because as far as their dishwashers go, they've always been pioneers for many advancements in the dishwashing world, and I feel the same goes for their laundry machines as well. Please correct me if wrong, but I don't know of any manufacturer that featured any sort of PowerScour zone or dedicated silverware spray before Whirlpool. The first silverware spray I know of was in the Maytag Voyager soon after discontinuing true-Maytag's final tall tub design, so, still Whirlpool's idea. In my opinion they have been and continue to be the most well-rounded machines, with reliable pump systems and racks that are forgiving and very easy to load. It's clear that the reputation they seem to have with their new platforms is completely and entirely wrong. I know I've been corrected BIG TIME from what my original opinions were on them.

Post# 869112 , Reply# 40   2/25/2016 at 19:30 (2,978 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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I'm really beginning to doubt even more's objectivity and sincerity.  I just read their review of your model.  I really think they are biased toward European brands.  The only thing I agree with them about is their comment about tea stains remaining in mugs.  I have that problem sporadically.  They rated yours with a 6.6.  They gave a score of 8.3 for the Elite 14763, the model below mine with the MicroClean filter.  They reviewed the Elite 14823 today, the windowed version of mine.  It got a 7.8 score.  Me thinks there are some inconsistencies in their testing and reflective of their scores.  Their water consumption figures for these two Elites on the Normal Cycle were different.  I am of the opinion your testing is far more meticulous than theirs.  I just sense some irregularities they aren't mentioning.  Who knows, maybe completely different people loaded these 3 different machines.  Maybe temperature of the room, who knows what else.  They dissed the think dishware/rimmed soup bowls stability on the 14823 and had photo.  They had the back row of tines in the 180 degree position.  With that row set at 90 degrees (for TZ use,  I have the greatest stability with my rimmed soup bowls and similar thick dishware and this was the case with the previous Elite I had too.  Far superior to any other dishwasher I've owned, including the GSD1200. 

Post# 869116 , Reply# 41   2/25/2016 at 19:52 (2,978 days old) by washer111 ()        

Pretty impressive for one of these supposedly "silly" "manual-clean" filter designs, no? Unless I'm mistaken and it has a food disposer of some description in there?

You did really well with loading the machine, and I'm proud to see another person has seen the light, and isn't an avid pre-rinser/scraper :)

Burnt-On things can be a real challenge for a lot of machines, and I guess how well they clean depends on more than just loading or cycle selection. Temperature, detergent, spray patterns all work to make or break the deal. I've had great results with potato-bake dishes that have been reheated far too many times during the course of a weak with the Dish-Drawer. Only trouble is, you loose about 40% loading capacity as a result of putting that casserole in there :P

Post# 869121 , Reply# 42   2/25/2016 at 20:26 (2,978 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I agree, Bob. There's far too much inconsistency on both major review sites for machines that have the *exact* same mechanics. What I found interesting was in addition to the KA and KM identical twins to my machine getting much higher scores, the machine that was given a 10.0 at that time was an Electrolux, which left the same amount of burnt cheese on the same bowl, but where they "scolded" the WP, they praised Elux for the same performance.

@washer111 - I've definitely had a drastic change of heart on the subject, but to be fair in regards to WP, I had my doubts during the time before they revised the filter and drain port design, where anything bigger than a small grain of rice would remain stuck behind. I think now, while I love self-clean disposal designs because of nostalgia, I definitely have started to prefer the removable design. It's nice to easily check now and then to make sure nothing harmful has gotten stuck inside.

In all honesty, I've been a no-prerinse activist since falling in love with my aunt's PowerClean back in the mid 00s. Not an item that goes into my machine is touched by a drop of water before a cycle, but in our case most of our meals consist of grilled or roasted meats and vegetables and only occasionally do we have "messy" foods like mac & cheese or casseroles, so that's largely to blame for our dish loads not seeming as filthy as they *should* be, haha. And as washer111 pointed out, I usually just hand wash the large baking dishes and other items simply because they take up so much space, and because I use most of the items almost every day. I love only running fully packed loads of everyday items like plates, bowls, and glasses/cups. It just looks more aesthetically pleasing to me. :P

Post# 869124 , Reply# 43   2/25/2016 at 20:30 (2,978 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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And no, no grinder/disposal system at all. The drain pump is the same pump and impeller design since the Voyagers, and the wash impeller, as far as I could tell from parts photos, is a turbine style disk.

Post# 869405 , Reply# 44   2/27/2016 at 12:53 (2,976 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
non prerinser

I too have been a non prerinser since 1999. Most of the dishwashers I have hade were equipped with built in disposers. In about the mid 2000's, which I believe was 2004, I had a tall tub dishwasher which I have been using since then. My first dishwasher, however, was a standard tub.

Post# 869793 , Reply# 45   2/29/2016 at 14:55 (2,974 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
Tea stains remaining in mugs

Isn't this more a function of detergent effectiveness than a brand of DW? Or is it the water temperature being used?

Post# 869799 , Reply# 46   2/29/2016 at 15:43 (2,974 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I haven't had any issues with coffee or tea stains at all, and I usually always have one or two cups from coffee a day. I have only used Cascade Platinum so far though. I think because mine and Bob's machines are very very similar, it probably could boil down to water hardness or temps or detergent type. At least it's safe to say it's most certainly not an issue of water pressure or coverage.

Post# 869801 , Reply# 47   2/29/2016 at 15:53 (2,974 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
pump design

Thanks for clearing that up. I guess the only Whirlpool line with the grinder is the Maytags. My dad has the Whirlpool with the grinder, while my mom has the Kenmore with the filter. That explains why I hear the fan with the older models.

Post# 869817 , Reply# 48   2/29/2016 at 16:54 (2,974 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
Tea stains

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Most, if not all, dishwasher detergents contain bleach activators to clean stains in the ultra-low water temp that some dishwashers use these days. In Europe, it's usually TAED, while Cascade Platinum Pacs, for example, use Amine Cobalt Salt.

Post# 869842 , Reply# 49   2/29/2016 at 19:42 (2,974 days old) by appnut (TX)        
Tea stain problems

appnut's profile picture

I use Cascade Complete powder and I also use Cascade Platinum (either the Dawn Formula or the Clorox Formula).  And I always put a little bit of powder in the prewash dispenser.  I find the tea stains are far better dealt with effectively with high-temp option selected, particularly when Pots & Pans is used.  What amazes me is when run on that cycle, the copper bottoms of my Revere Ware look like they've been polished.  Never have seen that emerging from a dishwasher.  I don't know what my water hardness is.  When using the Smart Wash (sensor) cycle, it seems to defer more readily to lesser soil options.  The other night I came back into the kitchen and it had started the 1st post-wash rinse--one that pulses on for 5 to 10 seconds and sits for 30 seconds.  That's a lower-energy sequence.  But the machine did drain prewash water before going into main wash.  This occasion, the main wash was only about 40 minutes.  when I walked into the kitchen I was like, seriously?  You gotta be kidding.  I thought there as dirtier things in the load than for this sequence.  (I've only used thus far Pots & Pans, Smart Wash, and 1-Hour cycles).  I've not used Normal at all.  Andrew did influence me to accumulate a load that I threw a lot of stuff at it.  (Pots & Pans but don't remember if I high-temped or not).  What surprised me was the timer added 3 minutes the second it began filling for the main wash.  I've never seen that before ever.  But I don't think tea stains should be an issue even if they sit for 4 or 5 days.  But my old Elite, with the way it sensed soil level, it pretty much always defaulted to 140 degree wash rather than 120 because it felt the load was rather dirty and dealt with tea/coffee stains very well.  Similar loads with the new one, won't sense and default to a heavier mode except rarely.  I've only seen it do 3 post-wash rinses on Smart Wash (which is normal on Pots & Pans) once or twice.  It usually does default to 2 post-wash rinses and occasionally that sequence whereby the 1st post-rinse pulses. 

Post# 869891 , Reply# 50   3/1/2016 at 01:14 (2,974 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I'm glad you mentioned the low-energy after wash rinse. Mine behaved totally different than it usually does the other night; it was a load of not horribly dirty dishes since most was just veggie juice residue and such, but a few plates had spaghetti sauce plastered on. Used Normal as usual with no options, but instead of the usual 2-3 prewashes with purges between, it opened the detergent cup a few minutes in, no drains at all. What struck me odd about it was that I've had less-soiled loads than that - that ended up getting prewashes, which I thought was unnecessary. I was pleased really, because I always loved that the PowerCleans jump straight into the wash on Normal, so the detergent gets a full workout. I'm not sure why it decided only now to do a low water cycle.

Anyway, the first rinse was like you described, it wasn't a purge, because it filled with more water than the normal 5 seconds or so, but it also wasn't a full water charge. The pump would kick on for 20-30 seconds, and had a few seconds of good spray before hearing the pump start cavitating, but it seemed like it was on purpose. It would run for that little period and then sit for 30 seconds, and repeat. It's the first time I've ever noticed it do that. Almost like it was intended as a filter purge that also had a little wash action thrown in.

After that, it filled and finished out normally with the long final rinse. The cycle was a PowerClean Normal cycle exactly; Main Wash - Purge - Final Rinse. I can't imagine it used any more than 3 gallons, if that, but as always everything came out squeaky clean with not a speck in the filter. I'm wondering if that super baked on heavy mega test load forced the sensor to recalibrate, and after that carnage, it decided this load was a walk in the park, haha.

Post# 870158 , Reply# 51   3/2/2016 at 19:10 (2,972 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Andrew - question

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I was on the WP website today and I noticed something - every last WP dishwasher now has a filter - so if you want the actual WP brand dishwasher, you're gonna get one that has a removable filter....Unless I looked over one, I didn't see one that was self cleaning. Is this true?


Post# 870176 , Reply# 52   3/2/2016 at 19:49 (2,972 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

You are correct, they don't' have the clean water wash system/self-cleaning filter.  That feature at present is only in KitchenAid (5 models) and Kenmore Elite (3 models). 

Post# 870192 , Reply# 53   3/2/2016 at 21:01 (2,972 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
What if I wanted a whirlpool with a food grinder?

I heard that Maytag is the only whirlpool line with a food grinder as of lately. Correct? I'd like one with a grinder.

Post# 870199 , Reply# 54   3/2/2016 at 21:48 (2,972 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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@Mark - Bob is right, as far as the SheerClean/MicroClean self-cleaning system, it is currently only on the KitchenAid and Kenmore systems. Maytag is the only one to have a grinder and accumulator system. However, "manual clean" filters on the Whirlpool machines and the KA/KM's with the removable filter come with a huge asterisk; the filter and pump system is designed in a way that the machine back-flushes and cleans the filter itself by pulling all the accumulated soil out through the drain pump under the cup, which is the only opening dirt can go once caught in the filter. It cleans itself in the same way a Bosch or Miele cleans its filter. When WP first launched this design, the cup didn't have the grooves cut out of the cup that line up with the drain port and allow larger pieces of food to be sucked out, and as far as I can tell from parts photos and diagrams the drain port itself wasn't as big as it is now, which is why I, like many people, was skeptical of it actually working as intended. Now it's safe to say they've worked out the bugs.

Post# 870305 , Reply# 55   3/3/2016 at 12:05 (2,971 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I wonder if they will keep the food grinder on the Maytag's? Or eventually make the Maytag's like the WP's?

Post# 870310 , Reply# 56   3/3/2016 at 12:35 (2,971 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Now THIS is interesting!
Looks like the Maytag motor certainly is a more heavy duty, possibly "induction type" motor, with capacitor. Just clad in plastic.
Reminiscent of the last GE Quiet motor.
Power for that chopper!
I am now intrigued!

  View Full Size
Post# 870323 , Reply# 57   3/3/2016 at 13:20 (2,971 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
The motor does look similar to the one our GE Nautilus had. That machine would have been nearly silent if not for the total lack of any tub insulation whatsoever lol.

I'd love to know more about the differences between these motor types. The motor used in the WP/KA/KM machines is, as far as I know, the same type of magnetic induction motor that is used for drain pumps, whatever that type of motor is called because I can't seem to find anything specifically about the different types and what they're called. But the actual main wash pump is much much bigger than what they use for drain pumps, and it's also wired in such a way that it ONLY rotates in one direction each time, which is why the pump outlet is shaped the way it is. Drain pumps normally chatter back and forth rapidly before gaining momentum in one direction or the other, which is why you can hear that chattering/grunting for a split second or so before it actually starts pushing water out. I was majorly skeptical about it until hearing and seeing the power it has, so evidently, motor size doesn't define how strong a pump it can be. This Whirlpool is a pressure washer especially when forcing that water through 5-6 holes at a time on the lower arm.

I don't know what Maytag will do in the future but they seem to stand behind the disposal blade and accumulator for the time being. Whirlpool seems to use Maytag to play to the nostalgia market, explaining the disposal, all arms running at once, larger motor, etc. They do the same with their washing machines in a way with promises of more robust components and keeping the styling of older Maytag designs, like the center dial. My BravosXL even has the front slant of the Atlantis and original Neptune. My main reason for choosing the BravosXL over the Cabrio or KM Oasis was the physical option to turn off the Spray Rinse that the others didn't have.

I think the downfall of the Maytag design vs its WP/KA/KM siblings is that it barely shaves by on energy regulations, simply because it uses more water and the motor isn't as efficient. If I recall correctly, I think I remember John L. saying that despite them being fairly reliable, the shaded-pole induction motors like GE used are also energy hogs and generate a lot of heat, which is why they have that fan built on. I think if they do anything else to the Maytag in the near future it will be to change the pump system to the MicroClean system in order to keep the "self-cleaning" label intact for buyers looking for it as a feature. I wish WP would just be more transparent about the removable filter design though, because so far it's quite maintenance free.

Post# 870325 , Reply# 58   3/3/2016 at 13:46 (2,971 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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I really like those Maytags but the professional critics give it awful terms of cleaning. After reading consumer reviews, most did like it though some complained about it not cleaning well. It uses more water from what i can tell, but said it still cleaned awful. I dunno. I've seen them in person and I really liked the stainless blades and interior. The door felt a little flimsy though...

Post# 870346 , Reply# 59   3/3/2016 at 16:36 (2,971 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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I suppose this might have been posted here before, but these are the specs I found for the Whirlpool vs. Maytag wash pumps.

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Post# 870363 , Reply# 60   3/3/2016 at 18:04 (2,971 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Honestly -

mark_wpduet's profile picture
if the new Maytag's are anything like mine, I can't understand the bad reviews of awful cleaning. It cleans great, is quiet, and everything about it feels very sturdy - racks, inside, door, everything..

the only 2 small complaints I have are the tiered upper rack (which I have learned to live with) and the buttons are hard to push.

Post# 870375 , Reply# 61   3/3/2016 at 20:24 (2,971 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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Yeah I can't fathom it cleaning awful either!

What felt flimsy to me was when the door was closed, pulling it open caused the plastic handle area to flex. Maybe it was just the one at the store but it wasn't very solid up in that area.

Post# 870390 , Reply# 62   3/3/2016 at 22:01 (2,971 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
whirlpool vs maytag wash pump

I believe Whirlpool wants Maytag to be their old school wash system. I have the whirlpool point voyager at my dad's. Maybe maytag is the old school whirlpool due to how big the wash pump is designed. Do the maytag wash pumps still have a fan like the original whirlpool point voyagers do? I noticed that the later ones don't sound as pronounced.

Post# 870391 , Reply# 63   3/3/2016 at 22:03 (2,971 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
My mother in law has the mid line with the front controls. It doesn't feel flimsy at all to me, though I do note that the panel will flex a bit when pulling it. My previous gen was the same though and never had an issue. Maybe it's designed to flex a bit, like the bumper of a car. I'm surprised at how much more solid my Whirlpool feels being a brand new machine. My door doesn't flex a bit when opened or closed, and feels heavier than her Maytag but who knows whether that's slight variances in the spring and cable tension or something.

They seem very happy with it. The thing I'm trying to break them of is rinsing. She's gotten better though, because she called me a few weeks ago to tell me she put a baking dish in the top rack with baked on cheese, and it came out spotlessly. I was like "Yeah? Lol, didn't I tell you it would?"

As far as loading it's identical to the Maytag I had because the racks haven't changed a bit. The only things I'm not a fan of are the stainless steel wash arms. They look gawdy to me; not sure what the narrow in the middle-wide at the ends thing is about. When you see the underside, the actual passage for water is as thin as the Whirlpool low-profile arms, so the rest is molded flat metal. All in all though, they're happy with it. Not an item has emerged unclean and it's extremely quiet, only a smidge louder than my WP, but both are too quiet to hear over a low-volume TV.

Post# 870439 , Reply# 64   3/4/2016 at 08:00 (2,971 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Whirlpool owns Amana too

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I wonder if this uses the Maytag wash system as well?

@ Andrew - Yes, I noticed that after I bought my Maytag in 2015, the wash arms changed in the new ones not long after and I wondered what they changed in the machines compared to my current one. I thought the wash arms looks HUGE too. Mine are much more flat.

I'm debating on getting a waterproof cam like you did and put it in mine because I'm drying to see what it looks like and hopefully the clarity of your vid. But I dunno.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mark_wpduet's LINK

Post# 870440 , Reply# 65   3/4/2016 at 08:01 (2,971 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Correction - 2014,

mark_wpduet's profile picture
not 2015

Post# 870492 , Reply# 66   3/4/2016 at 13:51 (2,970 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
2016 maytag dishwasher

I wonder what whirlpool will do to the maytag dishwashers for 2016.

Post# 870515 , Reply# 67   3/4/2016 at 14:49 (2,970 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Hopefully they

mark_wpduet's profile picture
will keep them with the chopper and point voyager, making slight improvements here and there. By the time I need a new dishwasher, who knows what will be available at that time...But right now, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Maytag dishwasher....they are GREAT!

Post# 870525 , Reply# 68   3/4/2016 at 16:02 (2,970 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        

I wonder what improvements will be made.

Post# 870579 , Reply# 69   3/4/2016 at 21:41 (2,970 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I don't know

mark_wpduet's profile picture
Andrew said it still uses the old point voyager system, but with improved management. They also made the dispenser a lot better than the older dispensers....probably things like that.

Post# 870583 , Reply# 70   3/4/2016 at 22:29 (2,970 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I don't think that was me that said that. If I did at some point, it was completely unintentional. The new Maytag design works -similarly- to the Voyager because of the accumulator filter and disposer blade, but it is actually built on the same Tahoe** pump assembly as the Whirlpools and KitchenAids. The difference is the motor they used, and the fact that in the recess where the filter cup and screen plate are on the WP/KA, there's instead a fixed chamber with a screen similar to what was in the center under the arm on the Voyagers except that it now is shaped kind of like a kidney bean. There is also a lack of a diverter valve and motor, but the chamber for it is still there which is why both arms are fed at once. I'm still not entirely sure though how the pump is able to separate the soil particles into the accumulator, but I'm sure there's bound to be some passageway or something. It's hard to tell with parts schematics and pictures.

The next time I'm at my mother in law's I'll try to snap pictures of hers with the arm and filter shroud removed. At that point it's obvious it's a modified WP resource-saver design.

**I'm still not 100% sure what the official design title is. I only stumbled on a stray tech sheet online where it was addressed as "the new resource-saver Tahoe module". After that I looked up parts for the new WPs and on quite a few of the replacement pump assemblies and motors available, TAHOE-ASM was in the part name. Regardless, it's what I'm calling it for now because "resource-saver" and "post-Voyager" are a bit annoying to type and say all the time.

Post# 870585 , Reply# 71   3/4/2016 at 23:09 (2,970 days old) by Murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
Okay, this is the best I can find from pictures online.

1st - Old version Maytag (Voyager) pump assembly

2nd - New version Maytag (Tahoe) pump assembly

3rd - New Whirlpool (Tahoe) pump assembly

Note the arm and tube manifolds on the two Tahoe assemblies, and that the Maytag's accumulator rests in the same area as the removable filters on the WP.

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Post# 870618 , Reply# 72   3/5/2016 at 03:37 (2,970 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
maytag dishwasher

Maybe it's a hybrid pump. Next time, you should do a video of a full load in the maytag.

Post# 870663 , Reply# 73   3/5/2016 at 09:45 (2,970 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Yea it looks like they put an accumulation chamber right where the removable filter sits.
It's probably fed by a little jet off the main conduit like the Voyager and older GE setup.
They just break off a water stream to filter it, and hope all the water eventually goes through. I'd trust that their 4 blade chopper cuts up soils small enough to fit through the tiny spray jets.

Post# 870715 , Reply# 74   3/5/2016 at 18:18 (2,969 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Andrew -

mark_wpduet's profile picture
Perhaps I got the wording you used incorrect? It was something about how you said the Maytag that I have is still point voyager, but they use better management than the older WP voyagers....something like that. That picture of those pumps - the first one looks exactly like mine.

Post# 870774 , Reply# 75   3/6/2016 at 01:13 (2,969 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
Oh okay!!! I gotcha. Yes, the Maytag you and I have right now IS a true Point Voyager design, the very last year they made in Maytag and KitchenAid machines. The new design, the current ones that launched in the middle of 2014, are the "modified" resource saver machines, which have the new sump assembly design. The "better energy management" part was that in your machine, what allowed them to continue using the Voyager design but meet the tightening efficiency regulations for a smidge longer was that they programmed it to be much more water conscious. That's why these versions of the Voyager were much more aggressive with Automatic Purge Filtrations**, doing its best to avoid having to drain the prewash water and instead progress directly into the main wash. That's why with extra heavily soiled loads, mine would do three APF's before finally deciding the water was too dirty, and draining completely to refill for the main wash. Otherwise with moderately dirty loads, it would do one, maybe two, APF's and then drop the detergent, essentially saving water by only draining away the soil caught in the filter. In older designs, like my granddad's KM Elite Voyager, only one APF will be done, if at all, before it just dumps the prewash water completely.

**I was going to try explaining it, but luckily I had saved the PDF from the technical education manual I found and can no longer pull up online.

Post# 870823 , Reply# 76   3/6/2016 at 11:46 (2,968 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
Maytag dishwasher...

I spoke with my dad about the Maytags and how they have have push buttons that I can feel. I find them easier to access. Anyway, I am relieved to see that Maytag has the quality of the point voyater with the design of the Tahoe global design. I don't know what the name of the pump design is, so I'll call it a hybrid design. I like the fact that the Maytags start the main wash pump after it fills with a bit of water to check for cavitation. I also like that the white ones have stainless steel tubs. I'm thinking it's their EcoConserve dishwashers.

Post# 870870 , Reply# 77   3/6/2016 at 16:03 (2,968 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
It's interesting that I have never even paid attention

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to mine while it's running usually. I usually choose autoclean with hi temp/ tough scrub.....but I stopped choosing the modifiers and just started using autoclean alone since you guys said that autoclean will enable those options if it thinks it needs to...I timed it and it took 98 minutes to complete (no heat dry) using just autoclean with no options on a moderately soiled packed load. I do not consider that excessive as far as time to wash a load of dishes.

But this leads me to another question and I think I may already know the answer. With the jetclean steam cycle on my dishwasher, I think it uses 12.8 gallons of water...I was told on the new models the powerblast cycle is the same as my jetclean steam cycle. I'm wondering if a user chooses that cycle on the new models, if it uses that massive amount of water that mine does (for today's standards). I'm thinking it doesn't since these were redesigned to be more efficient.

Post# 870885 , Reply# 78   3/6/2016 at 17:37 (2,968 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

can't the accumulator screen be something a user can clean once a month or so instead of the machine drawing extra water several times during a cycle to clean it, something  that has nothing to do with actually spraying the dishes?  If this screen is not cleaned does it impact the rest of the current Dw cycle?  


I would gladly clean a screen once a month if it would prevent stopping and starting, drawing water and pumping out several times during a cycle.  This on and off and the DW deciding to use extra water to clean a filter throughout one cycle would drive me nuts.  

Post# 870895 , Reply# 79   3/6/2016 at 20:08 (2,968 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Why can't the accumulator screen be something a user can clean once a month or so?


Jerrod, it's called a manual clean filter.  NO THANK YOU!!  I hate them.  it's a European design.  I am thankful my old Kenmore Elite lasted long enough until a self-cleaning filter technology came out.  I dread having to get down on the floor and pull out a stupid cartridge.  clean it and put it back in place, hopefully properly.  My current new dishwasher only stops once during the prewash to check to see if it needs to drain prewash water or not.  And only once has it not drained prewash water in the almost 5 months I've had it.  It doesn't purge and clean the filter like what is described above.  I don't know how it does it, but it does.  So far, I'm very pleased with cleaning and food soil disposing. 

Post# 870903 , Reply# 80   3/6/2016 at 21:08 (2,968 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Wait a minute

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I'm confused about something. Aren't the dishwashers now that do NOT have a chopper and have removable filters instead all manual clean filters, that need to be periodically removed and cleaned? But appnut, what you just said is that these are self cleaning?

Post# 870924 , Reply# 81   3/6/2016 at 23:59 (2,968 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Oh my. Okay, some things need to be majorly clarified...

First off, the definition of Main Wash: the portion of the cycle where the main detergent cup is dispensed up until the point of draining to proceed to a rinse. Most older machines usually had quite short main wash times, but that has nothing to do with the Full Cycle Time of the machine from start to finish. The later models of the PowerClean had a 12 minute Main Wash, followed by a purge, then a 30 minute or so Final Rinse, when set to its Normal Cycle. So Mark, you are right that it's not really enough time to fully heat the water, which is why a lot of older machines did numerous prewashes back to back to keep the tap water entering as hot as possible. The Final Rinse is what causes the steam when you open the door at the end, because it's typically the longest portion of the cycle, and also a thermally held cycle on the timer/control board.

@jerrod6 - I'm not entirely sure what you're asking but I'll do my best to answer from what I understand. Firstly, a dishwasher must have a filtering system, or you'll just be stuck with particles of dirt and food stuck in the tops of cups and on dishes themselves. There are two types of dishwasher filters, ones that separate the soil from the water with centrifugal separator plates on the impeller and send it into an accumulator chamber to be sucked out and sent away when the machine drains, and then ones that have a manually removable filter that all of the water must go through to enter the pump inlet, capturing soil before it can ever be sent through the wash arms altogether.

Now, the majority of machines with an accumulator filter (Whirlpool PowerClean and Voyager, some older GE machines, Hobart KitchenAids, etc.) have blades that pulverize any food it catches, and the separator slings that soil through a passage into the chamber, where it becomes stuck by the filter mesh. This chamber only empties directly into the drain port, so that water cannot back flush the soil into the wash water again. The water jets hidden on the bottom of the lower wash arm constantly spray down against that filter to keep things loose, and also to help sweep the soil down when draining. Most of these machines just hold that captured soil until the drain, where it gets sucked straight out, so there isn't any "starting and stopping and adding water" that it's not already doing to progress from prewash to main wash to rinse, etc. Now, in the case of the more recent Voyagers, the Automatic Filter Purges were a way to reduce the amount of water needed overall for the cycle, by using the prewash water AS the main wash water simply by removing the soil it captured. A Main Wash - Rinse - Rinse sequence uses less water than Prewash - Main Wash - Rinse - Rinse, because if there were any filter purges during that main wash, the water it used to refill that tiny amount of water drained out to clear the filter is still much much less than having to completely drain the prewash water and refill completely for the main wash. So, in response to your question, self-cleaning the filter is very much an important part along with spraying the dishes because that dirt has to go somewhere, as it's not very productive for it to be flying around in the tub with the water.

Second, "manual" filters in well designed machines are actually quite the opposite. In machines like the new Whirlpools, and in machines like Bosch and Miele, the removable filters still clean themselves "automatically" because the drain port is positioned right under where the filter cup locks in. In the same way the accumulator chambers work, the filter cup serves the same purpose, catching food particles and keeping them trapped until the drain pump kicks on. In machines like mine, the drain pump activates while the wash pump is still running, so that the turbulence helps dislodge anything stuck to the mesh. It will then fill with the equivalent of about a cup of water, and pulse the pump on a few seconds at a time to additionally clean anything stuck in the filter. So far, I've not needed to clean my "manual" filter one single time because the machine keeps itself in order just by basic operation of the pump assembly, and still only uses around 3 to 4 gallons for a generally dirty load of dishes.

Also, I'm not sure of the reason ANYONE would want to clean a filter just once a month if they thought the food was caught and kept there the entire time waiting for the user to attend to it. That would be the worst smelling machine on the planet. Not to mention the bacteria being thrown all over your dishes because of month old food soils being kept around. The goal of both designs of dishwasher filter are not to leave any food at the end of the cycle. The advantage to the removable design is that it's much easier to take out the filter if something like a bread tie got dropped in the machine, whereas the advantage to the accumulator design is the capability of having a disposal blade, but with the inconvenience of having to break out the tool box should a nail or piece of glass fall past the sump grate.

Last note, now that there is a new contender on the roster, there's a bit of a hybrid to explain. The machine that Bob has is built on a design called MicroClean that has no disposal blade, but also has a non-removable, self maintaining filter. This is achieved by a new system where the filter itself is actually spinning with the impeller, and a series of baffles in the pump chamber actively lift those soils away from the filter and direct them to a containing chamber, much like the accumulator but without need of dedicated wash jets on the lower arm. Instead, it's directly open to the drain port and, as you'd imagine, soil gets disposed of as soon as the drain pump kicks on. It's practically a hybrid design that plays to the strengths of both platforms.

Last last final thought, more of a personal one, but I don't understand the irk some people get about a dishwasher pausing now and then. I don't believe theres a machine that sounds a foghorn every time it changes action, and that's about the only reason starting and stopping would bother me. Much like my old Maytag Voyager and my current Whirlpool WDT920, most good dishwashers only have periodic pauses for a few seconds at a time for sensing purposes, but they're so quiet that it's barely even noticeable. And I mean, who honestly is sitting right next to the machine every waking moment, criticizing every move it makes in the first place?

Post# 870973 , Reply# 82   3/7/2016 at 07:59 (2,968 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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How large are the inlet holes on the Clean Water Wash system or the grinder systems? What can they dispose of?

Post# 870980 , Reply# 83   3/7/2016 at 09:08 (2,968 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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Not to be ageist....haha, but Andrew, your breadth and mechanical understanding are impressive for someone born in 1991. LOL.
It's a nice little sliver of evidence against the drumbeat of us Millennials being drooling slacks on our phones. :P

What I find fascinating is what you said about what your Whirlpool does to clean its filter.
In addition to the pump suction port being cordoned off to the side, which helps from debris being lodged in the screen at the pump entrance (like my GE), it's interesting to hear it drains while it's still pumping.
My GE never does that. It has filter jets on the spray arm, but it never drains while momentarily still spraying.
It WILL do the pulse drain thing. Which does a decent job.
But I think the extra thought WP put into their machine, really helps their filter cups be as "self cleaning" as possible.
My GE filter cup is "mostly" self cleaning. There will be grit and this weird white scum in there after a few weeks. But it never really builds up more than an intermittent film. Same on my parents' GE.
So in those cases, a good rinse every month or so seems necessary.
It's because of THAT...I think what contributes to some grit sometimes found on glasses in the upper rack if it's a heavy wash.
The machine just isn't removing ALL the soil from the filter system, so it sticks around for the final rinse.
I'm really wishing more and more, that I could merge my GE Profile features with the mechanics of your Whirlpool.
It would be a BEAST.

Post# 871012 , Reply# 84   3/7/2016 at 12:06 (2,967 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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@ Andrew -Thanks for that explanation - I did not realize that technology has already created a self cleaning, but removable filter. For example, you took yours out of your machine, so you can remove it. I thought the new Whirlpools, GE's, Lux's that had removable filters were filters that needed to be taken out and cleaned periodically.. I must have totally missed the technology transition.I totally thought all these new machines were just like the Euro machines where the filters needed to be removed and cleaned. Remember how surprised I was that your filter was clean after those loads of dishes? LOL

@ Appnut - since you have had your machine, have you EVER taken the filter out to inspect it? I know you said you HATED manual clean filters and didn't want to chance not getting them placed back in correctly, so I'm thinking you have never touched it based on that.....but you might have taken it out at least once to look at it?

Post# 871017 , Reply# 85   3/7/2016 at 12:34 (2,967 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
European DW

Well, 'we' invented this design of self flushing filters.
You can clean the filters, and on some models, you have to, on others, you don't or verry periodicly. Best filter designs I know are Bosch (or Siemens, Neff etc.) and Miele.
But usually, you are only left with the big, undissolved bits and a fine, greyish mixture in case you run lower temp cycles.

One question though: As far as I noticed, no WP motor design does actually change its speed for different cycles/cycle steps, or do they?
I know that Bosch, Miele, LG and ELux do depending on model, and that Maytags certanly don't, but what about KA or actually the verry TOL WP?

Post# 871018 , Reply# 86   3/7/2016 at 12:35 (2,967 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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"Euro machines where the filters needed to be removed and cleaned"

Euro machines have had self-cleaning filters for... uhm... I don't know how many decades. I think a common misconception here is that dishwasher filters work like dryer lint filters.

I can't speak for other brands, but BSH dishwashers here quickly change between draining and circulation during the drain cycle which causes water to surge around the filter and wash it.

Post# 871084 , Reply# 87   3/7/2016 at 17:57 (2,967 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Mark, my filter is not accessible.  It's buried underneath the plastic housing of the mechanism--it looks like your Maytag.  It doesn't look all that much different than my preivoui9s Kenmore Elite or your Whirlpool. 

Post# 871089 , Reply# 88   3/7/2016 at 18:13 (2,967 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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If I'm not mistaken Bob and Mark, on your machine Bob, isn't there just a little grate that can be popped out with a lock tab? I'm not sure how much further you can dig down though. I assume they have that removable grate piece just in case something slipped down under.

Speaking of your machine Bob, we were in Sears the other day just exploring, and I noticed on the KM Elites with the motorized arm and CleanWater/MicroClean system, there is now a little metal cylinder type thing sticking up beside the sump grate. I'm assuming it's a temp sensor but I've never seen one so large in newer dishwasher. Does yours have anything like that?

Post# 872549 , Reply# 89   3/14/2016 at 19:29 (2,960 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Post# 872554 , Reply# 90   3/14/2016 at 20:08 (2,960 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        

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These are good dishwashers. I sell many at home depot! They spent so much time inventing this total coverage sprayer. Now it would be great to have them do something to have them cut the operation time in half! the cycles are way to LONG!!

Post# 875528 , Reply# 91   4/3/2016 at 22:30 (2,940 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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A small website/marketing update for my machine....

The dishwasher itself hasn't changed..yet, but there are now updated video demos for it with a different voice actor and new transitions. Maybe that means I'm safe in having a brand new, current dishwasher for a little while longer! :)

What I did find interesting is that now the demos are calling it the "WashRight" system, with the TotalCoverage Spray Arm. In the previous videos and marketing material, they never really gave the machine design itself a name. I wonder if they've now finally given the design a true marketing codename to differentiate it from the Point Voyager and PowerClean before it. I have to say, it doesn't have quite the ring to it like it's predecessors, but at least if it is now the name of the "resource saver/Tahoe/HE" design, it can avoid confusion from now on.

Updates with my machine: Still absolutely LOVE IT! I've been deliberately avoiding removing the filter for the past few weeks and making sure every load was filthy and had been left for a couple of days to get dried/stuck on while waiting for full loads. I checked it tonight, and save for a few specks around the screen, the filter is still basically clean enough to eat off of, not that I would personally haha. All I've had over the past month's worth of cycles was a lonely little green pea, just big enough that it wouldn't fit through the filter cup grate. After a couple of cycles though, it disappeared

One thing I've found definitely has a much more advanced "brain" than its predecessors. Almost every load performs differently. Here lately, if the soils on the dishes were more liquid based like cheeses and sauces, rather than bits and pieces of food, it has begun starting with the prewash, and then deciding to just go ahead and drop the detergent, and the main wash ends up being about an hour, then a sort of hybrid purge where it fills with just enough water to spray slightly and then gasp, pulsing that for a couple of minutes, then drains, and proceeds with the final thermally held rinse. I'm guessing the sensor has been actively changing thresholds and tries to be more and more conservative if at all possible; the first few weeks of having the machine would always sequence with Prewash-pw-pw-main wash-rinse-rinse-rinse, on Normal, Heavy, and Sensor cycles. Reminded me of our GE Nautilus that we had that I despised, except still using less water than the GE could and having very clean results, something the Nautilus could rarely do on its own.

Overall, I'm ecstatically pleased with the machine. It's very easily a machine that I would choose to repair should a component fail over the next 10-15 years, rather than replace. I can't see it becoming obsolete anytime soon.

Post# 875535 , Reply# 92   4/3/2016 at 23:30 (2,940 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

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WOW! Three years developing.
Though I'm not surprised. Engineering that stuff takes a long time and a lot of testing. Kudos for management for letting them take all that time to get it right!
Takes an entire year to develop one screwdriver or two full years to develop a smoke alarm!
And we're often not given enough time.
I hope all the "modern" naysayers paid attention to that video to see that they tested this shit to go 10 years!

Your WP must be more advanced than my GE's brain. Because it's a cycle sequences of pretty much stayed the same unless soils are definitely heavy or definitely on the light side.
They definitely got the self-cleaning feature on your filter system absolutely right. Kudos to WP!
I get more n more jealous the more I see you post about your machine LOL.

Post# 876091 , Reply# 93   4/8/2016 at 01:29 (2,936 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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I think the thing I worry about MOST of things to go wrong is the control panel - although I've never had this happen (knock on wood). But after 9.2 years, the motor went, not the control panel, on my 2005 Point Voyager and the control panel always stayed warm to the touch, ALL THE TIME, but it never failed. I never knew if that was normal or not. This new Maytag's control panel does not stay warm. I wonder if they test the longevity for ten years, if this includes the control boards and not the actual washing components of the machine?

Post# 877905 , Reply# 94   4/20/2016 at 12:23 (2,923 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Grody prewash water!!!! I've only opened it once or twice during an actual full load of dishes, so I was curious to see just how murky the water would be after a few minutes from the cycle start with a full and heavily soiled load. Nasty. That floating stuff is "cauliflower couscous" left in the processor container and on some of the plates. It still amazes me how little water it uses per fill, compared to the Voyager, since they use the same tub design. The Voyager water level would be up to the edge of the door.

Post# 877946 , Reply# 95   4/20/2016 at 17:55 (2,923 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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Yucky poo-poo! Hahaha

My Frigidaire filled to about the same level too and cleaned beautifully. It amazes me at times how well things can clean without a ton of water! :)

Post# 878064 , Reply# 96   4/21/2016 at 11:47 (2,922 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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The flow-path optimization must be incredible as well as minimizing as much head loss as possible. WOW. Especially for the long travel to the upper rack!
And to get the pressure we've seen this thing throw out from such little volume.
Engineering marvel. :)

Plus, it must be crazy to compensate for the variable of water return to the sump in order to maintain pressure, with mixed loads, all plate loads, pots and pans, upper rack, etc. As they'll all vary the amount of water "suspended" out of the sump during a cycle.

#nerdthings :D

Post# 878074 , Reply# 97   4/21/2016 at 13:06 (2,922 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Looking closely at how everything is designed on the inside, I'm really impressed with how well sealed the tubing and connection points are at the arms and the port on the back wall. I've gotten the camera positioned to watch at the back and at the upper arm manifold, and very little, if at all, water escapes or can be seen spurting out. The manifold that connects to the ports at the back has a huge rubber lining around all the plastic, along with the check valves that close the ports not being used when the rack is in either position.

Another thing I find really cool is the way it fills. The brochures talk of a "Dynamic Fill System", but I really didn't think much on it until noticing that the fill times are always different. If there are a lot of containers with concave bottoms, it will seem to fill forever compared to filling with nothing in it. I've also heard it randomly add water in the middle of a wash portion, sometimes prewash, sometimes halfway into the main wash, sometimes in the final rinse. I'm assuming the optical sensor is constantly monitoring for air to be pulled towards the pumps inlet port.

And you're right, I still find myself skeptical of the tiny pump, so now and then I have to go watch the videos I took just to reassure myself hahaha!

If I had one thing I could change about this machine, it would be to have that larger variable speed motor they use in the KitchenAid. I was thinking the other day about how it would be nice now and again to use a 1-Hour Wash cycle where it filled with more water and unleashed full power to all the arms at once, just to have that "option" of something like an old school PowerClean. But regardless, I'm madly in love with this baby. And besides, if I'm really craving the sound of that tornado of water, I do have my own PowerClean hiding out in the guest room closet! Lol

Look how CUTE SHE IS!

Post# 878079 , Reply# 98   4/21/2016 at 13:41 (2,922 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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"you know you're a member of AW when you have spare appliances tucked away in the closet!"

Post# 878087 , Reply# 99   4/21/2016 at 14:31 (2,922 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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"I'm assuming the optical sensor is constantly monitoring for air to be pulled towards the pumps inlet port."

Usually, the pump itself determines the correct fill level, as part of the load sensing.

(c) Bosch Home Appliances

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size
Post# 878090 , Reply# 100   4/21/2016 at 14:51 (2,922 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Are you abled to share your source for that service manual with us? And if so, would you kindly do so? ;)

Post# 878110 , Reply# 101   4/21/2016 at 16:37 (2,922 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Post# 878117 , Reply# 102   4/21/2016 at 18:20 (2,922 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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That's really interesting, thank you for linking that. :) Honestly I didn't think those little DC motors were that advanced, but now that I think of my Bravos, it does seem to know exactly when air starts being pulled in during the recirculation phases because it will immediately do a quick spin and then add more water, and with that small amount there's no way it could reach the pressure tube (or else the tub would already be floating). So it looks like I learn more about these seemingly simple motors. I can mark that down as a note under "has surprisingly powerful pumping capacity despite its size". :D

Post# 878153 , Reply# 103   4/22/2016 at 06:27 (2,922 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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I think Andrew and John should start an appliance company! haha. You guys are so smaht (smart)! :-D

Post# 878166 , Reply# 104   4/22/2016 at 09:35 (2,922 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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OMG I would love to start an Appliance company.
We are so smart, S M R T.....I mean S M A R T.

I wanted to work for GEA since I was in high school..........until I learned they were in KY, LOL!
And then when I graduated in the recession, WP was doing everything BUT hiring anyone.

That motor stuff is fascinating. And makes total sense once you realize it.
Unfortunately I doubt GE uses their motors to that ability.
I've never noticed anything near an adaptive fill in my Profile.
It seems like all the fills are hard-timed. And a couple of the pre/post rinses are intentionally under-filled. The pump will cavitate heavily during them. Yet oddly still sounds like it's throwing around a lot of spray....

But hearing that the WP is so dynamic in so many ways, illogically makes me want to lean toward a new WP based dw. Maybe I'll sell it down the road, lol.

Post# 878171 , Reply# 105   4/22/2016 at 11:09 (2,922 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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If you like the dynamic-fill on the Whirlpool, I can recommend a beautiful AEG dishwasher which uses that technology. It's 21 years old, though.

I think you and Andrew should start and advertising agency - the way you get exited about (ahem, old) technology is truely wonderful! And cute. laughing

Post# 878188 , Reply# 106   4/22/2016 at 17:42 (2,921 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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My dream since I was around 12 years old has been to become a lead engineer for Whirlpool. I grew up with constant jabs and jokes made about being "washing machine crazy" and sometimes had hurtful things said, but I'm thankful I never let myself and my passion for what I love be crushed entirely. I've always had an extreme appreciation for the amount of work and thought put into machines that people otherwise don't think anything about. To build a fully automated machine that performs so many different tasks, all without any outside guidance, all for someone to throw clothes or dishes into, push a button, and come back later to have the task done entirely, and better than a human could do by hand. It's amazing to me the people that don't realize how fast a washing machine spins, or just how much water is being thrown around inside a dishwasher. They see something as a chore, and instantly it becomes a "negative" subject and apparently to some people is taboo to even speak about. I don't understand that mindset at all.

My husband and I have joked about starting an appliance company that specializes in dishwashers and laundry machines. He's a super whiz when it comes to networking and programming and anything to do with computers and electronics, where I'm on the mechanical side and typically have a natural understanding of the whys and hows of the physical aspect of a machine, so he could design the electronics and the programming and I could handle the mechanics. :D

I also wouldn't mind the advertising though either @logixx. :) I can get so excited and pumped up when I start explaining features and things about an appliance to someone to at least "acts" like they're interested, which is a rare occurrence on its own. I loved talking to customers for the hot minute that I worked at Home Depot because they seemed to really click with me and I got the chance to explain a lot of things and debunk myths to some who had no idea, and they would usually ask for me again and end up buying multiple appliances through me because I took time with them. Unfortunately the management was awful and it got to a point that I had to say "bump this noise" and leave.

Post# 878193 , Reply# 107   4/22/2016 at 18:25 (2,921 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Up until now, I though I was an only child.

Wanted to become an engineer? Me too.
Have an understanding of how appliances mechanically work? Me too.
Would chat endlessly with customers, working as an appliance salesman? Me too.
Wouldn't mind working in advertising? Me neither.

One huge difference is there, however. You deep-clean your car... and I take mine to the car wash once a year. If I have a coupon. *lol*

Post# 878196 , Reply# 108   4/22/2016 at 18:43 (2,921 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Haha! I don't feel so alone after all! And true, I spend hours a week on my car. It's killing me right now because the pollen is in full force at the moment, so washing it would really be pointless, but I do have to vacuum and dust the inside constantly just to make sure it doesn't put us into an allergy coma. Believe it or not though, I've been forcing myself not to keep the washer or dishwasher pristine for as long as I can, just to truly see how "self cleaning" they are. So far so good; aside from the lint and dirt that can accumulate around the top of the washer around the dispensers and the tub ring, the washer itself keeps quite clean. No ring around the inner basket yet, and no odors. The dishwasher is the same, some grime around the outside of the door from drips, but everywhere water touches on the inside is sparkling. Nothing yet to clean from the filter cup either. :) I'm working on my OCD little by little, though I don't ever want to lose it entirely. I enjoy a clean house far too much.

Post# 878213 , Reply# 109   4/22/2016 at 19:41 (2,921 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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Hahaha I think we all have a bit of OCD. You almost have to in order to enjoy watching appliances lol. I have always found the movement of the water in both dishwashers and washing machines, absolutely fascinating. I get some grief over my hobby too unfortunately. It's hard for other people to understand the passion. Appliances to most people are just a part of life, not a past time. When I got rid of brand new appliances, my coworker asked me what was wrong with them. Why would you replace a brand new machine with something 30 years old?? My explanation seemed adequate to her, but she still thought it was funny :-)

Post# 878221 , Reply# 110   4/22/2016 at 20:13 (2,921 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I love any appliance

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that uses water! This is why I HAD to have a Rainbow vacuum. I bought it brand new in 2006, without a demo, and I use it a lot. I'm OCD too.

Post# 878243 , Reply# 111   4/23/2016 at 00:18 (2,921 days old) by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
Car OT

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Yes. All of this AND, it's killing me that I haven't been able to upkeep the semi-healthy pristine-ness of my car with the constant moving from apartments.
NOW that I got the garage I can FINALLY properly detail the interior along with the getting started on the spring clay bar and waxing.
It's like needles in my eyes every morning how the dust has accumulated inside. And the mats! Don't get me started :P

Andrew, yes that too. Actually being that engineer who has to toil for months and years on things people don't give two poops about, but can't live without.....they have no idea.
No idea! What goes into making their smoke alarm ACTUALLY sense smoke (it's almost black art, no joke, takes months!) No idea how many hundreds of systems have to make sweet sweet music in concert together to make their jet engine actually run and not just sit like a rock, or explode :P
NO IDEA it takes a year or two ... To design a working, safe, screw driver or wrench, or desk chair.

It is a thankless job that makes our world go 'round.
The only more thankless job I can think software today.
Even I have no idea about that.
It's magic! Haha!

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Post# 878262 , Reply# 112   4/23/2016 at 06:36 (2,921 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        
My car...

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OMG I have always been obsessive about my cars. In 1990 my father's aunt died. She bought a 1985 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme brand new and when she died my dad took it. It was 5 years old and had 21K miles on it. That thing was MINT, it even still smelled brand new. He drove it to work everyday and when he got home I would take the Dustbuster (LOL) out to the car and vacuum it. My dad smoked and he got a burn hole in the seat...I just about had a stroke! haha.

Every time I get into my car now I notice the dust too...and the mats! I keep the OEM ones in the trunk and I use rubber ones. Being in a condo I can't keep up with as much as I used too...but fortunately I live on the first floor right along the interior street so I can pull up along my patio and vacuum it. Now that the 20 foot high mound of snow is gone, I'll be vacuuming my car! That's been a horrible obsession for me. haha

Yes John, you engineers don't get enough credit! I can only imagine what's involved with getting things to work. All those big words that no one knows what they mean! hahaha. ;-)

Post# 884167 , Reply# 113   6/9/2016 at 11:17 (2,874 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Quick check in/update!!!

My husband bought a Kill-A-Watt type device a week ago to test how much energy our server closet and gaming computers were pulling, so naturally we've also been testing anything we can get our hands on, including the dishwasher! Yesterday I rigged the dishwasher's power supply with a cord that could be plugged in to the bar above, and connected it to the meter and ran a Normal cycle with no options, where the load was pretty heavily soiled, which meant the usual forcing of three prewashes before the main wash. The device also allows you to key in your energy rates, which for us is $.08 per kWh, and it calculates over time how much it costs to run the particular item over the time it's been in use, as well as displaying watts, amps, and kWh in real time.

I was actually very impressed at how low a power draw this machine uses. Between 35-50 watts at 0.5-0.9 amps for the main wash pump. What was more interesting is that while there is no change in sounds or spraying power, the motor draw would hit the lower 35 or so watts while running the lower arm, and raise typically while the upper was running. Overall, the thing never went above 75 watts/1.1 amps with both drain and wash pumps running at the same time. It wasn't until the main wash that the heating element began running and bringing the display up the ~800 watts.

This is what I found interesting: for the near entirety of the main wash, the heating element would cycle on only while the lower arm was active. As soon as the display fell back down to 40-50 watts, you'd hear the clicking of the diverter, and the upper arm would come on. But contrary to what the "HE trolls" claim, the heating element runs for practically the entire main wash, even with no options selected on a Normal cycle. So to those adamant about new dishwashers using cool water during the wash portion, please, take a seat. :)

I admit however, this actually surprised me as well. I expected to only see a spike in wattage a few times during the MW, but no, every time the lower arm was active, so was the heating element. I know that it wasn't reaching 135-140 as it would with the final rinse or if HiTemp were selected, but that still indicates that the water is in no way "cool" for wash. During the final rinse, the lower arm spent more time active, which also meant the heater was active longer to hit the target 140F temp.

After the cycle of right at 3 hours, the full power draw was 1.1 kWh, and .09 cents cost in energy, of course not factoring in cost at the water heater, but that would probably amount to a .01 or .02 cent increase. Pretty awesome in my opinion, considering how little water it also uses, and how flawless its results are for every cycle, even the "energy star" cycle. One day I'll try to rig up the PowerClean and do a comparison.

Post# 884186 , Reply# 114   6/9/2016 at 12:11 (2,873 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I guess that due to the lower water level, the heater might not be covered by enough water. And with the adittional pipelength to the upper arm, the water level would decrease even further.
Thus, the lower arm basicly conpensates by spraying onto the heater.

1.1kW is not the most efficent ever heared of, but not wastefull by any means.

Post# 884240 , Reply# 115   6/9/2016 at 15:54 (2,873 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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Awesome report!
Very interesting.

I imagine with the very low water levels, the heaters have to be active almost all the time in order to prevent the water from cooling down.

And the fact that the pump would draw a bit more power on the upper level mode makes sense. It's got larger head pressure to fight, since it has to raise the water, at pressure, all the way up to the 2nd rack.

Cool stuff.

Post# 934244 , Reply# 116   4/24/2017 at 12:22 (2,554 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        
Burnt Pan Test

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This was done quite a while back (beginning of March I believe), but I forgot to post anything because we were getting ready to leave for Brisbane that week. One thing I've sort of missed on my Whirlpool is a Top Rack Only option, not that I really need it, but it would be fun to use now and then. Instead, I decided I'd try my own "top rack" wash, because from what I've learned from manuals and tech documents, machines that do have top rack only cycles don't really use much less water and time than what a normal cycle would, and their lower arms still operate to sweep soil down to the filter and to spray water directly on heating elements. So after a dinner of Shepherd's Pie that instructed to cook on the stove for the first half and then finish off in the oven in the same pan, I thought it would be interesting to then put the emptied pan back into the oven under the broiler until the remaining goop was scorched on. Since it's a stainless steel pan with no coating (seriously, these pans will stick if you just look at them wrong), I wanted to see just how much the Whirlpool could scour off on its Sensor cycle, on the top rack.


I was also delighted to find that when the upper rack is lowered, I can fit my full sized Corelle plates easily, so in went our dinner dishes, along with my Keurig cup with coffee grounds still inside, and of course the scorched pan. Then went a Cascade pac and I set it to Sensor and let it go.


I was a bit worried when I heard the detergent door snap open about 5 minutes after the first fill, so there was no prewash, but it also makes sense that it may have chosen that route because of there only being a half load, and most of the soil was dried and scorched on anyway.

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Post# 934245 , Reply# 117   4/24/2017 at 12:25 (2,554 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Much to my surprise, again, everything emerged clean! In less than the estimated 2:40 (I think from start to when I noticed it was counting down the 8 minutes of "air drying" was about 2:10). And even more surprisingly, the pan looked like it was scoured with Barkeeper's Friend. Again, with nothing in the filter and no residue or yiblets on the top of the tank or at the bottom of the tub.

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Post# 934253 , Reply# 118   4/24/2017 at 13:21 (2,554 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I always thought that a lot of features on DWs are just there, being barely used.

With older machines that run both arms at once one rack only options could have made sense, but I still don't think a lot of people would have used them.
And given that to make something like that work, you'd need hardwear that could verry easily be designed to offer alternating washarms anyways, I always thought this exact option was inherently destinted to be of the more gimmick-ish sort.

Sad thing is just that without such options (Top Rack only, or the PowerZone or whatever they call it) that don't really make a difference, DW couldn't compete with todays consumers.
But still I think this exact machine has the best set of options for the price. Not to many useless cycles (the only I could think of would be Soak&Scour) and pretty much all options being usefull (except for that PowerClean/TagetClean/whatevs possibly). The washsystem is advanced, but not overcomplicated, the cycle logic is verry good.
And the price is ok!

A few questions though that popped into my mind as you mentioned it skipped the prerinse:
Did you use the TargetClean option yet? If so, did you possibly recognize it being active for a significant time in the prewash?
I could imagine that especially with the Sensor cycle, the target clean is supposed to intentionally trigger a prerinse by dissolving some of the hard to get of stuff as early as possible.
I have recognized that with our Bosch (which has 3 different sensor cycles marked as such), the prerinse on the more intensive one appears to be longer and runs hotter before skipping the prerinse then on the normal or gentle sensor cycle. Maybe there is a simmilar logic there.

Anyway, great posts once again! Like how you seperate before and after, gives it a nice structure.
I'll always keep this thread handy when giving advice on a new DW...

Post# 934303 , Reply# 119   4/24/2017 at 17:29 (2,554 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Henrik, if no options are selected, then the sensor is completely free to do what it wants.  Selecting Target Clean, High-Temp Wash, or Sani Rinse will force a prewash and drain before main wash. 

Post# 934304 , Reply# 120   4/24/2017 at 17:34 (2,554 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Oh, ok, didn't know that. For sure a bit more customizing variety you get because of that.

Sometimes I wish one could force a prewash on the sensor cycle of our Bosch without using VarioSpeed (which, being the faster cycle version, ironicly forces a prewash). It often skips it, and some of our plastics then absorb some color during the hot mainwash, mostly reds from tomatos.
Still perfect results though!

Post# 934330 , Reply# 121   4/24/2017 at 21:09 (2,554 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Henrik - I've used the TargetClean option a couple of times, and it did a fantastic job with the casserole dishes I used it with. It's just a rebranded name for the TurboZone/PowerScour spray bars at the back of the tub, they've just improved it since the early iterations so that the jets are more evenly distributed and they extend a bit higher than the old version. From what I've seen in tech manuals, they still refer to it as TZ or TurboZone in even the newest KitchenAid/Whirlpool/Kenmore documents. 


The TargetClean jets activate in every cycle because the pump doesn't pause when switching from the upper to lower arm, but it only sprays for a couple of seconds as the diverter disc passes through. With the option active, however, each time it switches from the upper to lower arm during the cycle, it stays at the TargetClean zone for around 45 seconds to a minute. It does the same for the SilverwareSpray bar above the silverware basket, but it will hover around that zone for a longer period at certain parts of the main wash and final rinse portions of the cycle no matter what selections are made, as there is no option that controls the silverware zone (just like there is no option on the KitchenAids for the bottle jets because it will pass through that zone anyway regardless of if the nozzles are flipped up or down).


The only cycle I haven't used aside from once or twice is the Soak & Clean cycle, but obviously the machine cleans well enough that I don't really need it. I could try it someday with a super burnt on dirty casserole dish or something.


Oddly enough, the Sensor and Normal cycles seem very similar, and yet the Sensor cycle is the one that seems to be more conservative with water changes. Normal will very frequently opt for a full 3 prewash-long main wash-purge-two rinses sequence, which is odd because that's the same timing and water usage of a Heavy cycle. Now and then it will skip prewash altogether, or just go with one prewash. The Sensor cycle, on the other hand, seems to try to stick to either a one prewash or straight-to-main wash sequence if it can help it. In any case, no matter how filthy or heavily loaded each cycle might be, each one comes out spotless, so I've grown to trust that it knows what it's doing, haha. I've been using the Sensor cycle a bit more often the last few months because it's a bit more water-conscious but the results have been just as excellent. 

Post# 934336 , Reply# 122   4/24/2017 at 21:40 (2,554 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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As it happens, the trusty 920 is actually powering through a chocolate icing covered yellow cake as we speak, and I have a marked 5 gal. bucket contraption set up to catch the drain water and track how much the machine will use with its heaviest cycle, and see how much of the cake will be gone by the end. It's a 13x9 cake from a standard box mix, and I cut it in half (because for a box cake it tastes wonderful and is it really that necessary to waste an entire cake? Lol), and we ate a couple of pieces of our half while the dishwasher feasts on the other. Somehow the pictures I took of the full finished cake disappeared mysteriously, but at least the ones of the halved cake and what was put in the lower rack are still here.


It's in the middle of the main wash right now, so I took the opportunity to go ahead and post what I have so far. I'm taking photos of the bucket in relation to the marker lines after each drain sequence, including the purges. During the three prewashes and two purges between, we're at about 3.5 gallons at this point. I emptied the bucket into the toilet (with a ton of cake goop that had settled to the bottom, blegh) because I'd rather not spill gross water in the floor by trying to lug any more than about half a bucket to the bathroom, so photos will be our reference point to add up the water usage. 


Before the cycle, I removed both wash arms and both filters to give them a good cleaning, as well as cleaned under the door with a brush (not that there was anything much to clean) and checked the silverware basket to make sure everything was spotless for the test.

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Post# 934344 , Reply# 123   4/24/2017 at 22:04 (2,554 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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The equivalent cycles & options on my Kenmore Elite time is 3:16

Post# 934352 , Reply# 124   4/24/2017 at 22:40 (2,554 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Total coverage

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Ok, reading through this thread I will admit it that it appears like Whirlpool has significantly upped their game. Does anyone have the model # to the machine featured here? Clean-ability wise this is a modern machine I'd seriously consider.

Post# 934358 , Reply# 125   4/24/2017 at 23:27 (2,554 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

This should be a WDT920 with the colorcode of choice attached to the end:

I saw them online once for about 720$, not sure when or if that was even close to the cheapest price.

They added a similar model with third rack to their lineup which is the WDT970 with colorcode stuck to the end. I don't think they changed anything besides adding that thrid rack, but I could be wrong:

Post# 934370 , Reply# 126   4/25/2017 at 00:11 (2,554 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Done! It's late so I won't go into a huge detail, and besides, the pictures can do the talking.... :)

I'm honestly, still, surprised by this machine. Even the video test that Whirlpool posted on their Sales Academy site showed the filter mesh full. Granted, they added a frozen pizza, but no one in their right mind is going to put that much yeasty floury dough in a dishwasher. That stuff turns to glue, and they have access to replacing machines as they please. I'd rather not destroy mine. Besides, I've already tested to the conclusion that this machine can clean heavy soil baked onto dishes, but this test was specifically to see if it could handle excessive food soils, while measuring time and water usage.

The photos are in sequential order for the most part. The first is the main wash water, then each glass is the first, second, and final rinse water sampled so it can be seen better, and so I didn't have to empty the bucket each time. I did empty it for the last rinse to see if there was a change in water usage, and evidentally there is a smidge more in the final fill. Of course, I in no way expected crystal clear water, so this water is cloudy, but it's a white cloudy, not a brown cloudy, and smells of the Cascade rinse aid. Final water left in the sump of any dishwasher we have in the family has a slight white haze to it because of rinse aid, so I'll call this a bit more than usual because I'm sure there is still residual soil in the water to a point. But, the surfaces of the tank are all squeaky clean and spotless, which demonstrates how rinse aid helps in preventing soils from redepositing and instead draining down to the bottom.

I'm particularly shocked that the filter is spotless! Even the husband as a witness couldn't believe it, and he watched me open it right after the green light was extinguished to make sure I didn't try and alter the results (he gets excited when I do these stress-tests too haha). There isn't a speck of cake anywhere to be seen, not even under the bottom of the door.

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Post# 934371 , Reply# 127   4/25/2017 at 00:13 (2,554 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Post# 934373 , Reply# 128   4/25/2017 at 00:24 (2,554 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I even jotted down notes this time. :D I realized that I've been mistaken this whole time, including on the "Most powerful motor" thread. This machine does three full rinses on Heavy cycle or a heavy induced Sensor cycle, not the purge + two rinses that I originally thought. This is one of the first times I've had to keep and eye and ear out for the machine to drain since I had the hose clipped to a bucket, and I'd rather not have water go everywhere if it slipped. :P

That means that the heaviest cycle is:

Main Wash

Each fill was around .8 gal, and the final rinse was right at 1 gallon. The estimated time from start displayed 4:02. With the machine started at 8:03pm until the time that the drain pump shut off at 11:25pm, that means this most intensive-all options heavy soil cycle, including the temp hold of 135F for the main wash, and 156F for final rinse, ended at 3:22 total cycle time, excluding the last 7 minutes of idle-doing-nothing cool down. Water usage was around 7.2 gallons, give or take .1 gallons because of crude Lowe's bucket measuring.

Post# 934375 , Reply# 129   4/25/2017 at 00:27 (2,554 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

So your dishwashers over there are officially on par with Mieles EU Sensor Wash.

Welcome to the age, where dishwashers clean everything, yet only use as much water as really needed, and where no one has to worry about dirty filters, because the lord of dishwashers gave engeneeres who studied for years to make such things happen the skill to actually make such things happen.

And it was beautifull.

Maybe we should send that to and have them test that themselves. I'd actually think they might consider it.

Now, having finally proofen HE viable in the US, I'll have some cake myself :)

Post# 934424 , Reply# 130   4/25/2017 at 07:52 (2,554 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Good testing Andrew.

My GE profile takes about 90 minutes for the sanitized (anti bact.) cycle.
Pre wash is only 2 minutes, if the optical turbidity sensor sees particles, it does purge, but I rinse, so it usually goes to the main wash.
Cycle time varies depending on hot water temp. from the water heater, from 86 to 90 min. Main wash is about 40 min. Two rinses follow the main wash. First rinse is about 20 min. Sanitizing rinse is about 30 min. The display stays on 1 minute during the temp. delay rinsing, followed by drain, and a short dry which expels the steam. I use the air dry, but am not sure if the short dry time isn't heated on anti-bacterial. Lot's of steam exits the vent. It's an active vent.

Post# 934451 , Reply# 131   4/25/2017 at 10:43 (2,554 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
7.2 gallons

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Told you! :) I was expecting 8 gallons for that particular load, but 7 gallons is not bad at all.

I can't thank you enough for doing this test, I think it proves these new machine can clean while using the minimal amount of water to get the job done. Love that spray arm btw.

Post# 934522 , Reply# 132   4/25/2017 at 16:18 (2,553 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Very cool test!

I just checked my dishwasher: Heavy with Sani and Extra Scrub gives an estimate of either 2:25 or 1:40 hrs. with Speed Perfect. Water consumption can range from 3.1 to 3.9 gallons.

If I can find a similar cake (German cake tends to be denser and we don't really use that kind of frosting), I'll definitely try this experiment as well.

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