Thread Number: 7073
AWESOME - Almost Vintage Miele Washer and Dryer?
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Post# 139675   7/3/2006 at 00:28 (6,493 days old) by westtexman (Lubbock, Texas)        

I really want this set, but it says it runs on 3-phase power? I'm not an electrician, but I'm wondering if this just needs a standard 220V outlet? Isn't 3-phase power something different, like those used in laundromats?

Bryan


CLICK HERE TO GO TO westtexman's LINK on eBay





Post# 139676 , Reply# 1   7/3/2006 at 00:45 (6,493 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
The power requirements

Were specified when you order them. You basically could choose the amperage or single vs 3 phase when you ordered them.

These are commercial machines designed for a laundromat or the like. They are marketed as Miele Professional, and are probably 5-10 years old.

I have this same dryer, mine however is 240V 50hz 25amps single phase.

So yes, these machines very well could be 3 phase.


Post# 139677 , Reply# 2   7/3/2006 at 00:49 (6,493 days old) by westtexman (Lubbock, Texas)        
Another stupid question . . .

How difficult is it for an electrician to wire 3-phase outlet in my exisitng house (built in 2005)?? I REALLY want these machines. LOL.

Post# 139678 , Reply# 3   7/3/2006 at 00:52 (6,493 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
yes and no

panthera's profile picture
True 3-phase was commonly used by Miele in those years. I had a dishwasher and washer which both could be hooked up to take advantage of it.
At the same time, both could also be set to run on standard 220V 50 Hz single phase.
I think you could get into some very interesting issues with these machines. Nothing beyond a solution, but it could get very expensive and complicated.
Or very simple indeed, if they are equiped to cope with the voltage and phase (and cycle)you have available to you. Best to find out from the seller what the exact situation is. There are two places where the hook up is explained. One, in the schematics which are always included in Miele appliances (usually under the front kickplate, but not always) and, two, next to the terminals where the power is connected.
We have had some wonderful discussions on this topic over time, I maintain that anyone who just "assumes" US 220V is the same as European is asking for, at the very least, some interesting adventures. But nothing is impossible, if you can get the heating element problem solved the rest has a low enough current draw to make a solution reasonable.
Great machines by the way, though absolute leveling is a must.
Oh, and they weigh quite a bit, take that into account when installing them (even Miele laundry equipment breaks down occasionally).


Post# 139679 , Reply# 4   7/3/2006 at 00:58 (6,493 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
worst/best case

panthera's profile picture
Just saw the other posts - overlap here.
Miele stocks parts forever, so it won't be a problem to swap out the 3-phase heating elements (only part running 3-phase) against single phase.
Not cheap.
Possibly - see my last post - not needed.#
As for wiring your place. Best case, the machines can accomodate you as things are now.
I very much doubt this.
Worst case - there is equipment to "generate" true 3-phase off of single phase. It works by using a motor running on your available current to drive a "generator" which then powers the machines. But that high current draw means this would be rather expensive.
Again, talk to the seller.
Oh - and remember - Miele built lots of these machines, they last forever, and if you can't get these, there are others.


Post# 139685 , Reply# 5   7/3/2006 at 01:37 (6,493 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

A device called a "rotoverter" is used to convert 220V singlew phase to 220V 3 phase-it is a rotary transformer-yes something like an induction motor3 ph) that is started and run unloaded(no mechanical load)on the single phase line-the motor can be started and once running can stay that way-a bank of capacitors is used for starting and power factor correction-I know of someone out here who has 3 phase motors in his shop machines-lathe and a milling machine-that uses a rotoverter to run them.He got his from of all places---a Pawn shop.Got a good price for it. I also went to an FM transmitter site where the 5Kw FM RCA transmitter was being run from a rotoverter.For radio stations--a Kay electric "Phasemaster"Many transmitter makers specify this unit if their transmitter needs to be run from a rotoverter-it has additional power factor correction and generates a low distortion sine wave-other rotoverters may not-devices containing transformers may overheat.With a transmitter or any orther sensitive load-that has high current single phase loads in it-in a transmitter that could be blowers,filament transformers and LV DC power supplies-have to be connected to the "Hot" 2 phases-not the derived or "wild wire" as some electricians call it-that is derived from the converter.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO tolivac's LINK


Post# 139687 , Reply# 6   7/3/2006 at 04:16 (6,493 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Hhhmmmm

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Hi Bryan

I would think it very expensive to have 3 phase installed in your home, its the factory / industrial electrical supply,

Also I wonder how much work these machines have had given where they have come from, then again they are Miele`s...

Another thought with the 220v schematic I wonder if parts are available what would it cost to swap out the motor, heaters wiring loom etc?? given you might get them for peanuts....could be a nice little project!!!


Post# 139689 , Reply# 7   7/3/2006 at 04:42 (6,493 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Swapping out the 3ph parts for single phase ones may not be worth it and those parts may be NLA.If you are serious about these-yes it will cost money-is go the Phasemaster route-you could run both units off one converter-you would have to find out the horsepower requirements or current requirements of the machines-then you would choose a converter to match the requirments.An electrcian would be needed to install the converter,the wiring and the equipment.And you or the electrican would have to contact your power company to see if the home wiring could handle the extra load.I am betting the washer would need 20A, 220V and the dryer at least 30A.With these amps,then separate convertors could be needed.And when you use the machines--you will need to start the converter first-then start the machines.The load machines connected to the rotoverter won't run unless the rotoverter is running.I think the website in my link on the last entry can help you select the rotoverter on either current requirements or horsepower requirement-horspower of the motor or motors in the machine to be used on the converter.

Post# 139701 , Reply# 8   7/3/2006 at 08:06 (6,493 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Far as one knows, and am by no means an expert; the WS5425 series were not sold in the United States. Just because luxury yacht is being over-hauled in the States, does not mean the original fitting out was done there. The units could have been purchased anywhere else, and fitted in.

WSE 5425 could be wired several different ways, and there was also a version just for marine use (such as the one in the auction).


Performance specifications
Load ratio: 5 kg
Drum volume: 48 l
Spin speed: 1200 rpm
g-factor: 385
Control system
Electronic controls Multitronic MC 13 with 13 fixed programmes
Programme modification possible
Additional user-programmable functions (PFT)
Programme sequence display
Temperature and countdown indicators
Pushbutton for door release
Drive Digitally controlled d.c. motor

Features
Special heater elements
Hot and cold water connection
Coin mechanism connection option
Heating
Electric
Dispensing technology - Three compartment soap drawer in facia

Wash technology
Scoop-and-ladle technology
Gentle start mechanism
Interim spin
Design
Freestanding washer-extractor
White enamelled casing
Stainless steel front panel available (dealer fit option)
Stainless steel suds container and drum
Extruded drum perforations
Drain pump with non-kinking hose
Wide door opening angle
Recycling-friendly design with labelled virgin polymers
3 variants including 230V version with 13A plug
Marine version with integrated transformer for 3-phase 3 wire connection and junction box to accept armoured cable
Dimensions:
H x W x D: 85 x 59.5 x 71.5 cm


Note the marine version must be wired into an isolator.

Possible electircal connections:
WSE5425
440v 3 phase power without neutral 60hz
440v 3 phase power without neutral 50hz
230v 3 phase power without neutral 60hz
400v 2 phase power 50hz

Other connections are possible for single and two phase machines, but the washers in question are three phase, so it does not apply. However in case you are wondering, those machines run on 50hz at either 400v/2 phase/neutral/2x15amp fuse, or 230v-240v/1 phase/neutral/30amp UK fuse).

If at all serious about these units, request a clear photograph of the electrial plate found on all Miele units. You will be able to see the electrical requriments from this information, as well as the serial number.

Personally,though interesting prospect as it may be, I shouldn't bother love. Three phase power is not something easily run into most residential homes, and even if one did, you'd have a washer with only 13 set programs. Modifying requires a Miele tech, and if the units were never sold in the United States, they may not have the means to do the reprogramming.

Miele is introducing large "commerical" units for home use later this year. They won't be as inexpensive as these units may go for, but certianly will be after factoring in the cost of rewiring/bringing in three phase power.

L.


Post# 139796 , Reply# 9   7/3/2006 at 14:40 (6,493 days old) by askomiele (Belgium Ghent)        

Keeep them please. They are the last one with the special door opening. Not to small but not to big either. Some where in the middle.

Post# 139816 , Reply# 10   7/3/2006 at 16:27 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        

Bryan, I think I have the English brochure of these very same machines at home. They were known as "Little Giants". Once I get homeI could scan them and post them here.

AFAIK, all of these commercial Miele machines can be connected to either 400V three phase or 400V one phase, as well as 240V three phase or 240V one phase. This is possible since the motors and electronics (if any) of these machines are always 240V one phase, and only the heating elements are rigged either for 400V or 240V operation. Given you comply with the correct line frequency (60 Hz or 50 Hz) I guess you shouldn't have any problem to use these machines at home, besides having available a circuit (or two circuits) adding enough power to run both machines simultaneously in your laundry room.

If rigged for 240V operation, the heating times of both units will be "longer" than if connected to a 400V circuit.


Post# 139829 , Reply# 11   7/3/2006 at 17:32 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
As promised

Brayn, this is the English brochure corresponding to your next Miele washer and dryer pair! The washer is 5 kg, the dryer is 6 kg. These machines will last forever!




Post# 139834 , Reply# 12   7/3/2006 at 17:39 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

2nd. page

Post# 139840 , Reply# 13   7/3/2006 at 17:53 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

3rd. page

Post# 139841 , Reply# 14   7/3/2006 at 17:54 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

4th. page


Post# 139844 , Reply# 15   7/3/2006 at 17:58 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

5th. page

Post# 139848 , Reply# 16   7/3/2006 at 18:03 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

6th. page

Post# 139849 , Reply# 17   7/3/2006 at 18:08 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

7th. page

Post# 139851 , Reply# 18   7/3/2006 at 18:14 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

8th. page

Post# 139854 , Reply# 19   7/3/2006 at 18:20 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

9th. page

Post# 139858 , Reply# 20   7/3/2006 at 18:26 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

10th. page

Post# 139860 , Reply# 21   7/3/2006 at 18:33 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

11th. page

Post# 139863 , Reply# 22   7/3/2006 at 18:39 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Miele brochure

12th. page

Post# 139865 , Reply# 23   7/3/2006 at 18:46 (6,493 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
ok, so 'tis like I thought it was

panthera's profile picture
just the heating elements were set up for three phase and the whole thing can be run on 220-240,single phase.
Again, US 220V is not the same as the European stuff and even if its theoretical capabilities are ok, in the real world you have so many potential "issues" with this setup, I would seriously think about either the solutions listed above with 3-phase or skipping these machines, beautiful as they are.


Post# 139866 , Reply# 24   7/3/2006 at 18:48 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
400V two phase

Bryan, after reading this brochure once again for the ummmpth time, I have to correct something I posted previously regarding the correct voltages.

These machines are either suited for 400V or 240V, both TWO phase or one phase circuits. Check the specifications on page 6: for instance 415V/2N/50 actually means "415 Volts, 2 live plus 1 neutral wires, 50Hz", and 240V/1N/50 means "240 Volts, 1 live wire plus 1 neutral wire, 50Hz. Of course "your" machines are special order 60Hz. These are not three phase machines.

I hope this helps on your decision.

Emilio


Post# 139868 , Reply# 25   7/3/2006 at 18:59 (6,493 days old) by thor (Buenos Aires)        
Telephone call

Given these machines are 60Hz, I would definitely try to give a telephone call to this office, as found on the Miele UK site:

"If you require any further information, or wish to contact the Miele Professional Team, please call on 0845 330 3618. Alternatively click on the Call Me icon and a Miele Professional representative will be in touch as soon as possible."





Post# 140081 , Reply# 26   7/4/2006 at 15:12 (6,492 days old) by westyslantfront ()        

Hi Bryan. I was told that in residential areas, 3 phase is not available from the power lines and that it is only available in areas that are zoned for commercial property.

Ross


Post# 140446 , Reply# 27   7/6/2006 at 00:51 (6,490 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas)        
I would gather that

everytime you used these machines, your entire neighborhoods lights would dim!

Post# 140447 , Reply# 28   7/6/2006 at 01:15 (6,490 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Ross, my parents' house has 3-phase air conditioning. Definitely a residential area, and unusual for a small town. The house was built in 1970 and is about 2300 sq ft. I don't know why 3-phase was used, or if any of the neighbors have it.

Post# 140629 , Reply# 29   7/6/2006 at 21:14 (6,489 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
Glenn,

panthera's profile picture
maybe not so unusual - rural areas often have need for 3-phase, so it might not have been that big a problem to lay it in.
My folks had a true 3-phase air-conditioner in the late 60's which was noisy as all get out but sure cooled the house down in null-komma-nichts.
And we were out in the sticks.
Were?
Of course the total current draw on these machines is not all that great; the advantage of 3-phase is that it ups the efficiency and lowers the cost. And cuts the heating time.


Post# 140651 , Reply# 30   7/7/2006 at 00:19 (6,489 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

when I lived in a large hi-rise apartment building-the HVAC units in the 1 bedroom and 2 bedroom apartments ran off 208V 3Ph.These would have been standard residential units.They were "Luxaire" brand.Was a nice unit.The 3 Ph motors are more efficient.

Post# 146454 , Reply# 31   8/1/2006 at 19:57 (6,464 days old) by mrx ()        

I suspect the 60Hz is a typeo / misreading of the plates on the appliance.

It's more than likely 220V 50Hz Single phase
or 380V 50Hz 3-phase.

Just as a note:
Pre 1990s the UK, Malta and Cyprus used 240V (single phase) and 415V (Three phase)
The rest of the EU, including Ireland, used 220V (single phase) and 380V (three phase)

Most appliances were rated 220-240V / 380-415V
However, to make things simple, CENELEC, the European regulatory body that controls harmonisation of electrical codes and standards re-standardised to 230V and 400V. This is within the tollerance limits of both 220V and 240V appliances.

Hence, on more recent European appliances you'll see 230V or 400V for 3 phase.
An appliance rated 230V will also happily work on 220 or 240V etc..

It's a bit like the US 110V creeping to 120V



Post# 146455 , Reply# 32   8/1/2006 at 19:59 (6,464 days old) by mrx ()        

I have a pair of non commercial mieles that are IDENTICAL to those machines in terms of design. They just have a different exterior design + control panel is classic novotronic.

Post# 146463 , Reply# 33   8/1/2006 at 20:48 (6,463 days old) by westytoploader ()        
Bryan

Here's a fairly new Novotronic set with a 1986 washer...these may be more along your line!

CLICK HERE TO GO TO westytoploader's LINK on eBay



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