Thread Number: 73116  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
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Post# 965834   11/3/2017 at 16:56 (322 days old) by Supersurgilator (Indiana)        

I'm just curious if anybody has any information about what Whirlpool might be doing with their toploaders for next year? I didn't know if they were going to do away with the agitator again in favor of the HE agitator/impeller thing or what. I'm hoping that they will be able to keep some form of the agitator again.

Post# 965864 , Reply# 1   11/3/2017 at 20:28 (322 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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I'm more interested in front loaders if any are going to be coming out for 2018. 

Post# 965870 , Reply# 2   11/3/2017 at 20:45 (322 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        

This model by WP was not released too long ago. It *LOOKS* to have slightly shorter cycle times and features a built in faucet to help pre soak clothes.


Post# 965872 , Reply# 3   11/3/2017 at 20:51 (322 days old) by agiflow2 ()        

I don't even look at WP top loaders as much as I used to. There is nothing there that is interesting anymore. I accept the fact that the real agitator machines are gone and the current platform of cabrios do nothing at all for me.

I still would have considered WP had they kept the F&P drive system that I thought had much better wash action than their redesigned platform. Those machines could move a comforter around well, not this new design that is a combination of dd motor connected to a gearbox, thanks. Just not the same. The videos of these told me all I need to know to stay away.

Post# 965883 , Reply# 4   11/3/2017 at 23:01 (322 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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I personally am more interested in FL washers. In the past, every time I buy a WP appliance, just as soon as I buy it, they change the model and it's no longer available. That happened with my Duet in 2005, and then my Maytag dishwasher in 2014...No sooner did I get them, they were no longer available.....and yet, now, it feels like it's been forever since WP has done anything with their FL washers.

Post# 965885 , Reply# 5   11/3/2017 at 23:28 (322 days old) by agiflow2 ()        

Hard to believe 70 years of automatic top load washers with real transmissions will be gone in a couple of months with Speed Queen closing out the era.

A moment of silence.

Post# 965889 , Reply# 6   11/3/2017 at 23:37 (322 days old) by johnrk (BP TX)        

There were probably people mourning the end of wringer washers also...

Post# 965890 , Reply# 7   11/3/2017 at 23:43 (322 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Mark, I'm curious to see when they will begin offering FL models with the Guided/Intuitive Controls like on the above TL washer as well as their flagship 6.x cu ft. largest top loader.  The WFW5090 & WFW3090 have a hint of future control panel dynamics.  These two models look like they are actually initially for the European market with documentation phrases such as Rinse & Hold rather than spin only.  It also offers a warm rinse option supposedly.  Only Heavy Duty offers xtra hot temp.  Doesn't look like it has a heater or steam--which is essentially as far as I'm concerned for any TL or FL He washer useless one just wants to wash in tepid or cool/cold temperatures. 

Post# 965892 , Reply# 8   11/3/2017 at 23:51 (322 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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Yes Bob, the WFW5090 & WFW3090 are similar to the Whirlpool frontloaders sold here on the European market.

Unfortunately Whirlpool Europe is not known for it's quality...

Post# 965897 , Reply# 9   11/4/2017 at 00:07 (322 days old) by agiflow2 ()        

Johnrk. You are on a washer website which is dedicated to the automatic washer are you not ? Most of those beautiful old machines were top loaders.

So yeah it is significant that after 70 years of the top loading traditional style washer, will no longer be built,....effectively phasing them out.

Post# 965898 , Reply# 10   11/4/2017 at 00:12 (322 days old) by Maytag85 (SoCal )        
I hope the future is the past again!!

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I really hope the 2050's,2060's, and 2070's is more like the 1950's, 1960's, and 1970's all over again!

Post# 965915 , Reply# 11   11/4/2017 at 05:41 (322 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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WP's current line of BOL washers use the old agitator and work very similar, aside from the auto sensing (which actually uses more water than necessary). So they are still a good option.

I just bought the F&P WashSmart and it is the same as it was 20 years ago, manual fill selections and everything.

MT just came out with a commercial "residential" washer with a 5 year warranty. It also uses a normal dual action agitator.

So no frets mates. There are still good options out there.

Post# 965928 , Reply# 12   11/4/2017 at 07:01 (322 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
That Maytag commercial grade machine

While at least currently really not cheap for what it is (its non commercial counterpart is about 100-200$ cheaper even with a 5 year warranty selected ontop as far as I gathered), it finaly has one thing I've been wondering about as to when it makes it over the pond.

It has a "Normal" cycle, which is the label cycle.
Then there is a "Mixed" cycle, labeled as deep water wash cycle. That "Mixed" cycle probably is what you wished a "Normal" cycle is, and is most likely actually based on the normal cycle. Probably same agitation time, same agitation pattern, same spins. However, it has a deep rinse, fills with more water then "Normal" and might not even reduce temps at all.
Mixed is now what Normal once was.

Here in Europe, for a long time of the energy label existing, it was logical that there was only one cotton cycle, and that was used to determine the usage data. That cycle cleaned well as it wasn't absurdley overoptimized for efficency and nothing else.
Then the efficency race began, and all of the sudden, your one cotton cycle took ages and worked only mediocre at best. You had no equal option for everyday washing, you could only go with it or "misuse" a different cycle.
People got upset, and within a year, we all of the sudden had 2 different cotton cycles (or options to adjust the cycle to the Eco-version) on basicly every machine. On was just called "Cotton" and was what you wanted from a regular cotton wash (acceptable times, exact temperatures, good rinsing) and one was the Eco-cycle used to determine the usage data for the label.
While that is kind of misleading the consumer, it still better then not having a choice.

Hope that idea of "Normal" and "Mixed" makes it to more and more washers, especially FLs.

Post# 965930 , Reply# 13   11/4/2017 at 07:28 (322 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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Yes seems as though the "Normal" cycle has been sabotaged and is the victim of energy regulations. Probably because 75% of people use Normal for everything. haha.

My Maytag 765 has a new version using the larger tub as a base. It's the 865 series with an agitator, 5.2 cu ft capacity. Now on Normal, you can NOT use the Deep Fill feature. My machine allowed it for everything, except Sanitize.

Makes me wonder why SQ had to redesign their machines so drastically if only the Normal cycle is affected anyway. Perhaps because the old agitator could not do well with large loads of clothes and low water levels. Hence why WP uses more water on their AutoSense machines than is necessary. Because the old agitator is not designed for large loads/low water use.

Post# 965959 , Reply# 14   11/4/2017 at 09:44 (322 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
SQ redesign

That is actually deeply routed in how efficency metrics are calculated for comparison and classification:

Lots of talk around what is what on that page, but it clearly shows that several factors play into the efficency rating. Can't make out how a test load is defined, but the efficency rating takes into account:
-the energy usage of the cycle
-the energy used to heat the water
-the energy then required to dry the clothes (basicly taking spin speed into account, though, again, haven't found the way that is determined)
-the energy the machine uses while in low power mode (I guess that means standby/off)
-that all is broken down into a per cuft number to make it comparable independent of machine size

For waterefficency, you just divide the water usage of the normal cycle set to cold by the drum volume.

So basicly, all major ways of making the operation more energy efficent are taken into account and pushed into one number.
Thus, getting below that magic number can be done in several ways.
Speedqueen probably had to find a verry delicate balance of all the factors which made a complete redo necessary.
Mostly by now I suspect that spin speeds and waterlevels in combination made for a complicated redesign thought process. You have to keep in mind that these machines can't suddenly get even more expensive which would be the case if for example they combined a variable speed inverter drive with a trasnmission/clutch/brake system but still have to be abled to achieve the needed efficency.

Whirlpool had it easier there as they have 2 pretty much tried and tested drive train designs which they only tweaked from generation to generation.
And, furthermore (even if you do not consider that SQ had I think 3 different mother companys in the past 20 years and these company changes certanly meant delays in productdevelopment) WP has at least 10 years more experience with current HE machines and probably actually something like 20 years more experience with the general idea to make a washer more efficent. Thus, a lot of their designs just adapted along.
SQ basicly had to jump that decade of R&D and go from something like a good old WP DD to something like WPs current machines in just 2 machine itterations while WP itterated probably a dozen times.
Putting a 2018 SQ side to side to a 2014 SQ is like putting one of the last WP DDs next to a current WP TL.

By now, manufacturers were abled to just basicly ignore cleaning and rinsing for the most part or at least there were no standards set.
Check this slideshow out:
Page 17 clearly says that stakeholders (so the people who own parts of major appliance cooperations) are concerned that to strict regulations might push them to produce products that can't satisfy any consumer anymore. Keep in mind, stakeholders want at least a certain customer satisfaction to keep them with their company and thus keep the profits they bring.
On the same slide, you can see that there are movements to create a standartised comparable testing method for cleaning and rinsing performance. These would make these ratings basicly water proof (maybe except for wear/gentleness) as the word "clean" and "well rinsed" are finally put into numbers and numbers don't lie.
That would legally force manufacturers to produce products that wash laundry clean, rinse it well and do that efficently.

Apparently, these comittees work in 3 year cycles and always for the redo 6 years ahead.
Basicly right now, they are finalizing the 2021 regulations so manufacturers get the 2021 standards at the begining of 2018. Thus the manufacturers have 3 years to redo their products.
Then the comittee will work on the 2024 regulations during the period from 2018 to 2021. In 2021, the 2024 regulations will be released and so forth.

So if I didn't get something wrong there, next year, we should get the 2021 regulations which should include a rating for washing and rinsing results.
And as a consequence of that, by 2021, every machine should clean and rinse comparably well which might mean that IFA and CES 2020 during which the 2021 products should be presented could be full of completly new tech in the appliance sector.

Post# 965969 , Reply# 15   11/4/2017 at 11:26 (322 days old) by johnrk (BP TX)        
How Dirty

do others on here actually get their laundry? I don't, though gym clothes get sweaty, not dirty. I now hire my yard work out so no dirt there. Actually, the only really dirty things I generate are my white gym socks 'cause I wear them all around the house with no shoes and sometimes with gym work also. But, those have always gotten nice and clean with any washer I've owned. I wash them, my drawers and my towels and washrags on hot with a little Boraxo and white vinegar and they come out perfectly.

What I want is to make certain all the human slime that all of us generate and then rub on our clothes, is eliminated. It's why I don't wash cold, ever. I don't rely on any washer to take out food stains or any of that, using either Carbona or Oxy-Clean soak for several hours these days.

So, for me, the whole argument that I see on here about my clothes not getting clean just doesn't seem to apply. Am I the only one here like that?

Post# 965970 , Reply# 16   11/4/2017 at 11:33 (322 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Food stains

Over here, most soil on my clothing is sweat, deodorant and several different food stains. Everything gets clean...

Oh, and, it never really made much sense to anyone who understands a laundry process in all its different facets.
So I'm with you on 5hat.

Post# 966051 , Reply# 17   11/4/2017 at 20:57 (321 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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normal cycles for normal soils, for the most part, work very well....

I have been fortunate enough to have access to specific laundry loads that not everyone gets to encounter....

-greasy mechanics uniforms

-soiled diapers

-jeans/denims and heavy garments from construction

it gives one a chance to test, machines, cycles, water temps, detergents and additives

what is good, what is bad...pros and cons...and what works best...preferably with minimal effort/interaction...

and you experiment in search for what fits the bill best....

if those results show it can handle the worst, you know that formula can handle the 'normal' everyday items with ease...

no matter how far into the future we go with laundry, one thing we always come back to, stick with the basics, it works every time...even though you may have to alter some of the variables...

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