Thread Number: 73649  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Top Loader Extra Rinse?
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Post# 972552   12/9/2017 at 10:14 (288 days old) by johnrk (BP TX)        

Back when I had Filter-Flo machines, the 2nd and 3rd sets I had in the 80's and 90's had the extra rinse option. I always used it. Then, for the nearly 20 years that I had FL machines, I chose it at times and at times didn't. Usually went by how dirty the laundry was.

Now that I bought this new SQ TL 432 in October, I'm using it a good portion of the time again.

What are other TL owners doing on here? Using extra rinse, or not? And why or why not? I can't really claim any logical justification for my use at all.

Post# 972577 , Reply# 1   12/9/2017 at 11:46 (288 days old) by rp2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

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We had a '97 Amana made by Raytheon, which was basically the same machine as the 432.  I always had that thing set for an extra rinse.  Worst rinsing of any machine I've ever owned.  Towels in particular were a lost cause. 


We replaced the Amana pair with a Duet pair and had increased suds levels in the Duet for a while due to non-he detergent residue in everything.  Once it all had been cycled through in the Duet, suds levels normalized.

Post# 972580 , Reply# 2   12/9/2017 at 11:55 (288 days old) by johnrk (BP TX)        

Why would that machine be any worse at rinsing than any other top loader? I don't understand.

Post# 972595 , Reply# 3   12/9/2017 at 13:59 (288 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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My 1978 GE had extra rinse option.  It stayed on the whole time I had the machine.  From what I understand, GE had a strike in like 1976 or 1977 and I have a feeling my machine was produced during that time.  Its pump didn't sound at all like the one in my sister's or mom's washer.  Mine had difficulty getting all the residual water out of the system after the spray rinse and just barely got up to full spin speed by the time it was time for it to stop to fill for the rinse.  The only time it worked "correctly" was on smaller loads.  Had a friend who bought the same model a year later.  Hers performed like it was designed to.  Then came the 1986 Lady Shredmore.  Much to my dismay, there was no spray rinse on knit/delicate or normal cycles after the wash.  Only after the deep rinse.  Only on PP after the cool down phase did it spray after the "wash".  Horrible rinsing due to lack of spray rinse after wash.   Thus 2nd rinse on loads I used normal on--only towels and sheets. Everything else was washed on Knit/Delicate with wash time reset for a total of 16 minute wash.  The Fridgemore also had extran rinsne turned on for all cotton cycles.  The sequence after wash was a suds kill flush.  Then 2 pulse spins followed by rinse.  With extra rinse on it did a total of 4 rinses.  My Duet was a breath of fresh air with more than adequate real rinsing.    

This post was last edited 12/09/2017 at 18:53
Post# 972600 , Reply# 4   12/9/2017 at 14:22 (288 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

Extra Rinse: Only on loads using liquid chlorine bleach. Generally one load per week.

Most other loads: I fill my Speed Queen top-loader with true warm or hot water, then switch to the Normal Eco cycle which employs a spray rinse. Clothes are always rinsed adequately and water use is cut substantially.

Post# 972602 , Reply# 5   12/9/2017 at 15:05 (288 days old) by rp2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

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John, it only provided a single 15-second spray rinse.  Not nearly enough to adequately remove detergent prior to the deep rinse.  I would always select a warm rinse to increase the volume of the spray at least a little bit.

Post# 972603 , Reply# 6   12/9/2017 at 15:25 (288 days old) by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        
SQ Rinsing Ability

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Ever since getting my Maytag A207, I have realized how poorly my AWN432 rinses. I think it really is the short spray rinse. MT never needs an extra rinse. SQ probably needs one but I can never justify the water usage. Frankly I think the A207 cleans better too.

Post# 972606 , Reply# 7   12/9/2017 at 15:34 (288 days old) by rp2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

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Exactly.  That's why I'll never own a SQ TL.  Fool me twice, shame on me.


Yes, they're old school with their long stroke agitation and better built than other makes, but they are far from the exalted holy grail that so many consider them to be.  Anyone who is susceptible to skin irritations from detergent residue would be advised to steer clear of SQ toploaders.

Post# 972634 , Reply# 8   12/9/2017 at 17:04 (287 days old) by mjg0619 (Scranton, Pennsylvania)        

mjg0619's profile picture
No rinsing issues on my Maytag LAT7793, but you should have seen the suds cake that would appear in that machine the first time a load was put in there that had last been washed in our old DD Whirlpool. And yes, the extra rinse was almost always employed on the Whirlpool.

The Maytag does a spray rinse in the first spin, then deep rinse with 2 mins of agitation, and another spray rinse in the final spin.

P.S. I'll also throw in my vote that ANY older Maytag cleans better. *ducks and runs*

Post# 972639 , Reply# 9   12/9/2017 at 17:23 (287 days old) by rp2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

rp2813's profile picture

The only thing that would improve the old Maytags is a spray after the deep rinse.  Regardless, one of those will still out-rinse a SQ all day long, and IIRC, the Maytag spins maybe 50 or 100 RPM faster than a SQ 432 as well.

Post# 972654 , Reply# 10   12/9/2017 at 18:32 (287 days old) by Imperial70 (******)        

I think the poor rinsing issue also has something to do with the tub design.In particular the holes are not like any other perforated basket. Just a thought. I too noticed the poor rinsing, even with small dose HE detergents.

Post# 972656 , Reply# 11   12/9/2017 at 18:35 (287 days old) by johnrk (BP TX)        

I didn't state that I was having any rinsing problems at all with this 432, in fact I certainly haven't noticed any. But, I'm not prone to overdosing with detergent, either.

Post# 972667 , Reply# 12   12/9/2017 at 19:05 (287 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        
Once in a bluje moon

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and usually when I wash 4 sets of bathroom towels. 


However I have found that dosing the rinse with vinegar improves soap removal considerably.

Post# 972671 , Reply# 13   12/9/2017 at 19:24 (287 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
I'm useing extra rinse less often now that almost every detergent is HE by default.

Biggest bad habit for me has always been overdosing on detergent- so I have extra rinsed when it could have been avoided in the first place.

SQ rinse ability- honestly, I do believe they do not rinse as well as other designs, even latter version of top loads that had a reduced spin/spray. Overall design might play a role. For example when the machine stops I do notice water comes down from the area where the balance ring meets the inner tub. Second thing I have noticed (least on my machine) is that the spin spray starts much to early, as soon as most the water has dropped below the inner basket- clothes still sopping and tub not at full speed. Its not that the drain is slow, but rather that the spray literally starts about 1 minute in when it should start at 3 minutes in according to the timer chart. On videos of the the 542, the spray does start latter.

In any case I would agree that SQ washers do not rinse as well as a late model DDs for example.

Post# 972702 , Reply# 14   12/9/2017 at 23:13 (287 days old) by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        
HE Detergent Rinsing...

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In my own opinion, HE detergent doesn't rinse any better than an old fashioned high sudser, you just cannot gauge it because there are near no suds from the start. The surfactants are still there, you just can't see them.

I think SQ's final spins are actually higher than Maytag if I recall correctly. The first spin being set to slow on my DOE spec AWN432 because the Permanent Press cycle has to be used instead of normal doesn't help the already poor rinsing any bit.

Post# 972704 , Reply# 15   12/9/2017 at 23:27 (287 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
Good point about not seeing surfactants. Perhaps its the suds causing it, but the water in rinse feels less "slippy" to me if that makes sense. But the biggest peice of advice I can give: Never use the scope that comes with the box of powder or the cup in liquid. We all know its the right dosage x5, often literally. Its like tooth paste, they show an entire roll of paste on the brush covering every bristle when you only need a green pea sized drop.

SQ would be (at least should be) higher than a Maytag.

You are right about the first spin being slow on the 432. Yes, it certainly does not help.

Post# 972734 , Reply# 16   12/10/2017 at 03:18 (287 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

Speedqueen and Chetlaham: First spins are slow in all cycles on my 2017 series 9 (TOL with electronic touch controls).

Also: The first spin's spray rinse occurs very early (while there is still quite a bit of wash water left in the tub) in every cycle.

Post# 972737 , Reply# 17   12/10/2017 at 05:45 (287 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Frigilux, thank you, I was not aware of this. Which its very surprising (and puzzling) to hear. Especially the spin spray being so early- I can't see the logic there. I always assumed it was a mistake in the specing of the timer or a hold over from the Amana days (the tech sheet calls for the spin/spray much latter in my 2013 model and it is identical {except for the motor cap} to a 97 Amana tech sheet), but the fact such logic has carried over to a total cycle reprogram leads me to ask why. Excluding a PP cycle, in all the washers I have seen the spin/spray starts after the water has fully left.

Post# 972772 , Reply# 18   12/10/2017 at 10:25 (287 days old) by Gyrafoam (Roanoke, VA)        

I would only use the extra rinse option on my SQ if I had used Clorox in the wash, or had used a lot of detergent. Usually, if I have a load that is really dirty I would pre wash, anyway.

As it is, I have a few solid tub models I prefer to use when I use Clorox because of their lengthy overflow rinsing.
Although, there are plenty of machines that do a great job of rinsing as long as the don't have to deal with a suds lock situation, such as a 1-18 or a Filter Flo.
I have used old Maytag automatics for years and never once felt as though they were inadequately rinsed. I think the long spray rinse is very effective at clearing away wash residue.
When using fabric softener I prefer to use a machine that does not spray in the final spin as it rinses out the softener and defeats the purpose of using it. I tend to use it more in the winter due to static electricity.

Post# 972786 , Reply# 19   12/10/2017 at 11:26 (287 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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curious as to what causes one machine to rinse better than another....


timing of when spin/spray starts, and for how long?

spin speed and time once full speed is acquired?

fabric, like towels, that hold a lot more suds?

machines that don't have a one-way valve on the pump, allowing remaining suds from wash, to be pumped back into the machine during rinse...

also machines like a DD Kenmore....those pumps spinning backwards during agitation can whip up a lather of suds on their own...

oddly enough, spin/spray on the Eco cycle and machines like the Cabrio have been shown to be very effective...

but that could be an idea from their FL counterpart machines....rinsing is nothing more than saturate, and extract several times.....just like if you handwashed an item in the sink...

Post# 972930 , Reply# 20   12/11/2017 at 01:24 (286 days old) by mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)        

It seems to me that there would be a trade off in the amount of detergent used vs. how clean very dirty loads would turn out. I've washed some kind of nasty that required more detergent, which produced more suds that required 2 or 3 rinses to get the rinse water to acceptable level. Towels often need hot water bleach, and more soap to cut the body oils.

I called SQ on the detergent issue when I bought my machine, as I was reading conflicting advice. I read that powdered detergents was rough on the pump and cause it to wear out through abrasion. I read that liquid detergents caused the pump to "gum" up and thus wear out. The rep. I spoke to recommended to "use only a drizzle" of soap. Now to me, "a drizzle" would indicate a liquid. So I used less soap, to cut the froth, and cut out the 2nd rinse on most loads. Towels, however, are a lost cause. The rinse water in the 2nd rinse is very, very cloudy and many times still has suds. It's hard to justify a 3rd rinse, due to water usage the Queen uses. Have found that certain detergents are HORRIBLE with this machine.

A trip to the Dr. confirmed what I suspected in the rinsing abilities of SQ. Learned the hard way.

Told myself I wasn't going to reply on this thread!!! LOL.


Post# 972937 , Reply# 21   12/11/2017 at 03:09 (286 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
Why? Best reply in this thread. You've basically said what many others have experienced. Yes- towels are the worst in the Queen, and I really, really watch the detergent on those.

Post# 972940 , Reply# 22   12/11/2017 at 04:39 (286 days old) by johnrk (BP TX)        
I'm Having No Problem

with rinsing in this new 432. None. I started this thread out of curiosity re top loaders. I'm not having excessive detergent left in any laundry--and that includes towels. I always use white vinegar in every load in the fabric softener cup and I think that helps. I always use Borax. As with my front loaders, the only time I pick extra rinse is if I have particularly dirty or soiled things, like when I wash my cat's beds. For that, I also use the Lysol brand washer disinfectant and it works perfectly, too.

Sad that so many are having problems I'm not--perhaps it's the water--or the phase of the moon...

Post# 973318 , Reply# 23   12/12/2017 at 21:02 (284 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Martin said: "curious as to what causes one machine to rinse better than another...." and then listed a number of good reasons why some machines rinse better than others.

Another reason for poor rinses are how the water spray enters the tub -- for machines designed to do an eco-spray rinse, the water is often directed in a very wide fan-like pattern and midway between the agitator and the clothes, so the spray fully distributes and rinses equally well no matter where your clothes are.

The "original" Amana/SpeedQueen from the 90's didn't do that -- it had a "self-cleaning" "filter" a la rim-flo (like the Hotpoint), but unlike the Hotpoint washers, the water jet would fall inside the filter and mostly be directed outside the basket with just a tiny bit passing thru the filter and reaching the inside of the basket. Of course, once the spinning started, the piddling amount of water that actually was directed to inside the basket would be deflected by the air and the spinning motion and just rinse the top few inches of clothing.

In fact, an experiment I would frequently run to show friends where the water hit, is to fill the washer basket with a load of towels, start the machine at the spin rinse portion, and turn it off before it starts filling for the deep rinse. See which towels are dry and which ones are damp. Some machines will only spray rinse the lower few inches of clothing, some only the top few inches. Ideally, all the towels would be equally damp if the spray rinse was effective.

Another test, a bit more fair, is to wash a load of towels with hot water, let the cycle progress a bit after the spin rinse but stop it before it starts filling for the deep rinse. See which towels are still hot (very little rinsing), which towels are warm or cold (better rinsing). The rinsing pattern for this test is often different from the first one because of the way the clothes settle when the machine drains (neutral or spin), and the combination of detergent and water alters a bit how the rinse water filters thru the clothes on the way to the basket walls.

A fascinating test, which most places do not have the lab equipment to do, but you can often see it in Universities that study fluid dynamics -- the washer is either fed with washable dye for the wash and then the spin rinse is regular water or the reverse, spin rinse with tinted water to see the dye distribution on the clothes.

In any case, seeing is believing -- toploaders, as a class, do not rinse well, and the ones that do have a much better spray rinse than the others. Frontloaders dilute the dye solution out of the clothes much faster and with less water. The key here is not exactly how you agitate the load (top vs. front-loader), but the fact that if you saturate the clothes and then drain or spin them and do that multiple times you dilute and get rid of the "wash solution" (or dye, in this case) faster than only one or even two deep rinses. This is the reason that a good spin rinse and a deep rinse were enough for older toploaders, but most of them made in recent times went straight from wash to spin to deep rinse, which is not ideal. You want to remove way more detergent before the fabric softener or vinegar hits the clothes in the rinse. Toploaders with a decent spray rinse (recirculated, and several distinct spray rinses which drain and repeat with fresh water) can rinse very effectively too, but most toploaders did not do that and I haven't keep current with the market to know if the newer ones have changed. But the system is pretty old, Fisher&Paykel washers did this I think 20 years ago, there were a few models like the WP Resource Saver and Calypso, and I think, if I got the descriptions right, maybe the newer Speed Queens are doing something similar? Not sure.

   -- Paulo.

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