Thread Number: 77829  /  Tag: Ranges, Stoves, Ovens
Coil element temperature limiting
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Post# 1018633   12/20/2018 at 17:23 (186 days old) by deltablu (Eastern South Dakota)        

So, due to new regulations meant to limit cooking oil ignition on traditional coil element surface burners, new ranges sold in the U.S. must have temperature limiting capabilities. The new limiting burners have been coming out throughout the last year and it seems that now they are on sales floors for all major brands. The manufacturers are coming at this in different ways, but so far, all of them that we have seen are increasing cooking times, especially when boiling water.

Mostly I just wanted to start a thread and see if anyone has had experience with owning or selling these ranges, as well as feedback on the slower elements.





Post# 1018641 , Reply# 1   12/20/2018 at 18:22 (186 days old) by RP2813 (Too many people know the way)        

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First they hit us with dumbed-down hot water, and now this.  Pretty soon it's going to take longer to do everything around the house.  And this is progress?  What ever happened to saving the homemaker's valuable time?


Post# 1018644 , Reply# 2   12/20/2018 at 18:29 (186 days old) by ea56 (Sonoma Co.,CA)        

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This sure sounds like a very poor idea to me. What about gas burners? Are they going to also restrict the amount of gas flow to keep the flame smaller? And anyway, you would stll have an open flame that could ignite any spilled oil.

This is just entirely too much regulation. Are people so stupid now that they canít be trusted with an electric burner capable of reaching the proper temperature for deep fat frying? And even a slower heating burner will eventually get hot enough to ignite oil if left unattended.

I hope replacement burners that arenít limited will still be available, because Iím hanging on to my BOL GE stove.

Eddie


Post# 1018651 , Reply# 3   12/20/2018 at 18:56 (186 days old) by turquoisedude (Ogden & St-Liboire (where??), QC, Canada)        

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OK, this is all I needed to justify that 'spare' 64 Turquoise GE range in the garage. I will _never_ buy a 21st century range if I can possibly avoid it!

Post# 1018654 , Reply# 4   12/20/2018 at 19:09 (186 days old) by ken (Ulster Hgts, NY)        

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This was mentioned a couple weeks ago in a different thread. Cant remember who commented that the temperature limit of the burners were not low enough to cause a problem with normal cooking. I know in the case of GE they have resurrected the term Sensi-Temp and the limiting sensor is in the center of the coil. With that said would it be possible to replace the new style coils with those still available for older models?


Post# 1018655 , Reply# 5   12/20/2018 at 19:18 (186 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
JUNK!

The coil units made today are cheap flimsy things anyway, certainly not the Radiantubes or Corox units of the 50s!

Post# 1018662 , Reply# 6   12/20/2018 at 19:53 (186 days old) by luxflairguy (Wilmington NC)        

I was just thinking the same thing!

My landlord just "gave" me a new stove.  I have tiny little 550 sq. ft. apartment and had a 40 year old GE 20" stove.  Oven was superb, top worn out.  I had no simmer and of course, all the burners "reached for the sky."  SO after looking and giving the landlord my recommendations, they gave me an new Amana 20" stove.  Oven works well despite being 50 degree's cold.   Oven thermometer each time!  But the top is FAB!  It has NO limiter's!  I mean it!  No clicking, no up and down and more than anything true what  I dial!  High stays high forever, medium is steady and low is low all the time!  Made in Mexico of course, but I'm impressed!  I cook nightly as I do not eat out!  While of course I'd like 2 8" burners, this is far superior to the old GE!  I do augment this with a great Max Burton induction burner when needed!  

P.S.  It even has an oven window and light!

Greg

 


Post# 1018665 , Reply# 7   12/20/2018 at 20:14 (186 days old) by ea56 (Sonoma Co.,CA)        
Re: Reply #6

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Greg, look in the owners manual if you have it, or look online for your stoves model numberís manual. You should find the directions to adjust the oven control to make the oven temp heat 50 degrees higher. Then you wonít need to us an oven thermometer when you bake anymore. Iíve done this with both conventional dial oven controls and electronic controls and its pretty easy to do.

Eddie


Post# 1018669 , Reply# 8   12/20/2018 at 20:24 (186 days old) by deltablu (Eastern South Dakota)        
Re: #4

For now, regular replacement burners will be available to change out the burners with the limiters. As a dealer, we're hard pressed to figure out how to pitch this to customers. Just replacing the burners outright would put us in line for possible liability if there were a fire. Suggesting to customers on the sales floor to buy different burners and replace them themselves is hardly a good way to close a sale.

Post# 1018670 , Reply# 9   12/20/2018 at 20:26 (186 days old) by deltablu (Eastern South Dakota)        
Re: #2

We are being told that we will see some type of limiting capability coming to gas next year.

Post# 1018675 , Reply# 10   12/20/2018 at 21:25 (186 days old) by luxflairguy (Wilmington NC)        

Hey Eddie!

Been through the "leaflet" numerous times and it says that that the thermostat is not user serviceable!  Taken the dial off to see if like the old GE I could adjust...no!  So I use a oven thermo...set at 425 ...gets me 350 or, spend about 15 minutes fine tuning to get exactly what I want.  

I'm not sure my landlord will OK a service call for this and I don't want to risk it!  If I use the "big" oven over my KA toaster oven once a week, it's OK.  I've done my Christmas baking and I'm house sitting over the holiday getting to use a new KA "pro" range.   Rib roast and popovers on the menu!  Wilmington's a short drive away!  Right?

Merry Christmas!

Greg



CLICK HERE TO GO TO luxflairguy's LINK

Post# 1018676 , Reply# 11   12/20/2018 at 21:26 (186 days old) by luxflairguy (Wilmington NC)        

Link?  What link??


Post# 1018677 , Reply# 12   12/20/2018 at 21:31 (186 days old) by fan-of-fans (Florida)        

I seem to remember this was one of the selling points of solid element burners. They had a thermostat that would limit the maximum temperature to prevent fires.

Also remember a couple of years ago seeing Brown ranges (the ultra-cheap range people) offering some feature on their ranges to prevent cooking fires.



Post# 1018679 , Reply# 13   12/20/2018 at 21:44 (186 days old) by ea56 (Sonoma Co.,CA)        
Re: Reply #10

ea56's profile picture
Greg, when you pull off the oven control knob, on the back of it are there 2 screws that you can loosen and move the inside of the knob either in a plus or minus direction? Thats the way my GE oven control can be adjusted. I looked on line for the only Amana 20Ē electric range manual I could find, and I didnít see this info. But you could try going to the Amana website and see if maybe with the modle number you can find some more detailed info.

It sounds like youíve found a way to adapt to this OK, but it would be nice if you could get it ďjust rightĒ. I know you wouldnít be a member here if this didnít bother you. We here always want our appliances to function just the way they are supposed to.

Good luck, I hope that this has helped. Another thought, you may be able to find a generic replacement knob that fits and would allow you to make this incremental adjustment to the back of the knob.

Eddie


Post# 1018782 , Reply# 14   12/21/2018 at 21:20 (185 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

If the stove is new, tell the landlord to call the manufacturer or call them yourself, it should still be under warranty, right? Why let it bother you when they are supposed to fix it for free? (Although, to be honest, there's a small risk they'll make it worse, in which case you may have to call again.)

Good Luck!


Post# 1018957 , Reply# 15   12/23/2018 at 23:48 (183 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        

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I'm thinking about the chaos that will result from defeating this practice!

 

Gas ranges? I hope they will leave my nice, flaming blue ring alone...

 

Well, they can't over-regulate a Cal Rod, a Chromolox, or a Radiantube...

 

 

 

-- Dave


Post# 1019123 , Reply# 16   12/26/2018 at 10:10 (180 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

kb0nes's profile picture
I can't imagine the limiting thermostat ever altering time to boil water. The key with any electric surface element is having something to pull the generated heat out of the element, a pot of water will never get over 212F. They would never set the thermostat operating point under 450F or so. My hunch is that people are imagining things (or using an improper pot) if they think time to boil is increased.

If you want to see water boil slowly, use a typical residential gas range. Same applies for those that like kitchen fires which are increased by having an actual ignition source.


Post# 1019130 , Reply# 17   12/26/2018 at 13:21 (180 days old) by GusHerb (Chicago/NWI)        

Iím not sure how theyíd implement any such feature on a gas range unless they put a thermistor up in the center of the burner like those old Caloric fry burners. Tbh it doesnít even make sense to me, do electric coil burners currently just run uncontrolled or something? I thought theyíd cycle even on the high setting.

Post# 1019137 , Reply# 18   12/26/2018 at 14:29 (180 days old) by Revvinkevin (So. Cal.)        

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Hmm, whenever have to replace my range, I guess I'll just have to pony up for a Thermador with the 15K or 18K BTU burners, or a Viking with the 23K BTU burners! winkwinklaughingmoney-mouth


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Post# 1019142 , Reply# 19   12/26/2018 at 16:26 (180 days old) by deltablu (Eastern South Dakota)        
Re: #16

The reason that I started this whole thread is because we've been experimenting with the new ranges and are totally seeing problems. We have two primary brands of coil element ranges that we sell. I'm not going to name the brands, but someone paying attention could probably figure out which ones I'm talking about.

Both ranges used the same pot and amount of water: A stainless steel stock pot with 1 1/4 gallons of water at tap temperature to start.

Range number one with the burner that cycles the complete element with the limiter took 50 (yes 50) minutes to get to a boil and it was not a rolling boil that I would dump pasta into. Using that same stove, we installed the older non-limiting burner in the same receptacle and replicated the weak boil in 17 minutes.

Range number two has a burner design that cycles one coil and leaves one on even when the limiter cycles. The same experiment with this range produced a similar weak boil at 25 minutes. At 30 minutes we finally had a boil that a person could do something with.

With regards to limiter temperature, range number two has the limiter temp printed on the burner: 374 degrees F. Range number one does not. I intend to do some checking to determine this temp.


Post# 1019145 , Reply# 20   12/26/2018 at 17:38 (180 days old) by luxflairguy (Wilmington NC)        

It took 50 minutes to get 5 quarts of water to a boil?  Will not buy a new coil top stove!


Post# 1019149 , Reply# 21   12/26/2018 at 19:13 (180 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

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If this is true, it is ludicrous. That even makes the typical 10k BTU gas burner look fast.

Why not name the brands? If this really is a thing it should be exposed to the light of day.


Post# 1019151 , Reply# 22   12/26/2018 at 19:30 (180 days old) by deltablu (Eastern South Dakota)        

We've got a business to run. Chances are low, but I don't want to run the risk of a manufacturer deciding that something on the internet that's negative about them is a good reason to pull a product line. I saw what happened with Lorain.

Post# 1019152 , Reply# 23   12/26/2018 at 19:31 (180 days old) by appnut (TX)        
With those pathetic time to boil figures

appnut's profile picture
All the more reason for induction.

Do these limiter designs exist for electric flat-surface radiant stove models?


Post# 1019157 , Reply# 24   12/26/2018 at 21:39 (180 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Surface element temperature limiting devices

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Hi Ken, the real question when you said it took an incredible 50 minutes to boil a pot of water is what kind of pan you were using ?

 

When using a coil type element to boil water on the high setting less than 10% of the element should turn red-hot [ none would be even better ]

 

It has always been true when using ANY type of electric surface element [ except induction ] you need an almost perfectly flat cooking pan that makes complete contact with the element.

 

Show us pictures of the actual test situation, I am sure that these new element limiters will not affect cooking times except in cases where people are using crappy cook-ware.

 

John L.


Post# 1019158 , Reply# 25   12/26/2018 at 22:08 (180 days old) by fan-of-fans (Florida)        

Noticed this week we need a new controller or two on the 1985 Hotpoint we have. One burner will boil and boil like nobody's business, but won't simmer. I think even if the controller is $50, it's worth fixing. It seems better built than anything in stores.

Post# 1019180 , Reply# 26   12/27/2018 at 09:08 by deltablu (Eastern South Dakota)        
Re: #24

I enclosed a pic of the 11" pot that we used. It absolutely is a cheap pot; that was kind of the point. We weren't doing this experiment to find out the best way to boil water. This is more a case of seeing what happens in the real world. If people who were using whatever quality cookware are going to have to buy better products to be able to boil water, that's something we need to know. It's going to be different trying to make these sales and may effect what type of range is sold. Bad pot or not, its telling to me that when the only change made is to switch out a limiter burner to a traditional burner (in the same range) the same amount of water in the same pot goes from 50 to 17 minutes.

I don't doubt your suggestion that a better pot will provide better results. But this appears to be another situation like we've seen many times in recent years in this industry where a product that was capable of doing a thing now has new restrictions to "make" it capable of doing that same thing.

So far, we've only sold two of the new limiter burner ranges. We've had complaints of increased time on both. The first customer ended up getting a full set of traditional burners and threw out the limiters. Mostly we're just looking for anyone else's history with them and changes with how they are sold.


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Post# 1019182 , Reply# 27   12/27/2018 at 09:12 by deltablu (Eastern South Dakota)        
Re: #23

This is information from an AHAM communication provided earlier this year to let us know what is coming:

AHAM and its member companies have proposed to UL and the Canadian Standards Association a test procedure to evaluate sensors and other devices that will prevent cookware from reaching the ignition temperatures associated with common cooking oils. The efforts are focused on revising UL 858 and CSA C22.2 No. 61 to require all coil element cooktops to successfully meet the test. The proposed test procedure initially will apply to electric cooktops, helping to reduce the potential for surface cooking fires. The industry will prioritize standards development for electric coil ranges and cooktops, which represent the majority of cooking-fire-related incidents.

At the same time, product safety experts in AHAM member companies are working together to determine how similar tests and requirements can ultimately be applied to radiant glass ceramic, induction, and gas cooktops and ranges. This overall plan, coupled with enhanced consumer education and awareness activities, are designed to contribute to a significant reduction in the incidence of unattended cooking fires.


Post# 1019189 , Reply# 28   12/27/2018 at 10:56 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Uncontrolled Coil Elements

combo52's profile picture
These type of elements are responsible for thousands of house fires every year, better control or temperature limiting are long overdue, this is why these type elements are generally not sold in Europe and many other places around the world.

Hi Ken as a fellow retailer it is our job to advise customers in the proper use of appliances for safety, economy, and long life.

I have been this business for more than 45 years and you just have to advise users that they need proper cook ware, and tell users that the ELEMENT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO GET RED HOT WHEN USED ON HIGH, if it does they are not using the product properly and will get poor life out of the range, it will not perform as intended and it DANGEROUS to them and their home and family.

John L.


Post# 1019191 , Reply# 29   12/27/2018 at 11:05 by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
yall can have it

I will stick to my 40 50 and 60 year old ranges, I have enough common sense to watch what im cooking, and unless boiling water or browning meat, I rarely ever use high, and then only to start, I want my cookware and stove to last, these people wanting 18,000 buts etc I don't get, I just don't need it, to me that's a waste of heat.Radiantubes and Corox units put out plenty enough heat for me, and I will not use any cookware even if slightly warped, and most of y cookware is 50 plus years old and looks new, I never allow cold water to be poured into a hot pan and never ever ever allow anything but a wooden spoon to be used in stirring.


Post# 1019199 , Reply# 30   12/27/2018 at 11:46 by ea56 (Sonoma Co.,CA)        
Coincidentally,

ea56's profile picture
yesterday, while I was waiting for my Allergy Shots, one of the other patients waiting was relating her story of how she burnt her kitchen up last week.

Apparently, she was making Tortilla Chips, and she left the pan of oil on her electric stove and went into the other room to watch TV! The next thing she knew her dog was barking and waking her up. The smoke alarm was sounding, but it was the dog that woke her! She said the house was filled with smoke and her electric stove was toast and the kitchen cabinets damaged. I would guess that she was between 70 to 75 years old, certainly old enough to know that you NEVER leave a pan of oil or grease unattended on a live stove burner. She still didnít seem to grasp this point, even after the near miss with death she just experienced!

We live in a 20 unit townhouse HOA, three buildings, two of them have 6 attached units, our building has 8 attached units. On Academy Awards night in 1997 one of the residents in the first building did this same thing while making french fries, left the oil unattended and the fire destroyed the entire downstairs of his unit, he luckily escaped death. But since he already had COPD, his lungs were severly damaged.

The brain dead negligence of many people sends chills up my spine. So while Iím not crazy about this new safety regulation, perhaps in light of how nonchalant some people are about safety personally, this may be a good idea that will save countless lives.

BTW, donít flat top electric stoves already have these kinds of limit switches on the burners? Iíve owned two of them in the past and I noticed that the burners would cycle on and off on high while boiling a large pot of water, but even so they were only maybe two mins slower than a coil top in getting 6 to 8 quarts of water to a rolling boil.

Eddie


Post# 1019233 , Reply# 31   12/27/2018 at 16:35 by fan-of-fans (Florida)        

I think the limiters are on those solid element ranges we used to have here and are used more commonly in other countries. Because they're safer. And I noticed as you did that the radiant ranges cycle on and off too.

I heard similar story to the oil burning. But it was when someone left the stove on during a power outage. Power came back on but no one was there and the kitchen cabinets and stove were ruined from melting pans.





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