Thread Number: 77966  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Last big purchase of 2018 - a new dishwasher
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Post# 1019793   1/2/2019 at 08:27 (287 days old) by RevvinKevin (So. Cal.)        

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My 18 year old Kitchenaid has worked well for many years and I really liked it.   But a few years ago the heating element stopped heating and having no filter, it would often leave "yibbles" on items placed in each corner of the upper rack OR in those corners of the cabinet.

 

A few days ago we stopped into the Sears outlet for no particular reason and walked through everything in the store "just because".  As I looked through all the DW's there, I saw this pretty TOL looking Bosch I liked.  After going home, thinking about it and checking some reviews, I went back the next morning with my truck to bring it home.  I installed it New Years Eve and ran the first load yesterday.  

 

It's an 800 series in "black stainless" with top controls and 3 racks, the upper most for utensils  

 

I ran the "auto" cycle (2h 9m) and I have to say my glasses really seemed to sparkle more than when washed in the KA!

 

Kevin


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Post# 1019799 , Reply# 1   1/2/2019 at 09:21 (287 days old) by Stricklybojack (San Diego, CA)        

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.
We have the 500 series, love the quiet.
Here in San Diego using Finish is a must, otherwise mineral deposits cloud the glasses badly.
I use a 1 hour cycle (30 mins Express + 30 mins Extra Shine) most of the time, or just Express alone.
Mine is about 5 years old and doesn’t have the 1 hour option, I can see why they added it.



Post# 1019814 , Reply# 2   1/2/2019 at 11:10 (287 days old) by RevvinKevin (So. Cal.)        
Whisper quiet!

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I'm amazed just how quiet this thing is! You can be standing directly in front of it, having a normal conversation while it's running and barely hear it! Printed right on the panel shows: 42 db. Wow.

I've opened the door a couple times while it's running and it looks like both spray arms are spraying at the same time, unlike some other brands that alternate the lower spray arm, then the upper, etc. I really like that is has a filter too, the KA didn't!


Post# 1019817 , Reply# 3   1/2/2019 at 12:56 (287 days old) by leononmaui (Maui Hawaii)        
RevvinKevin

I have the same machine as you. I've had it for about 6 months. I LOVE it. This is the best dishwasher I've owned over many years. I have 2 dishwashers in my kitchen, and I'm replacing my other one with a Bosch also. Everything comes out spotless, the stainless steel pots look like new. Glasses shine. I love the upper 3rd rack for small bowls, large utensils, and small measuring cups for baking.
If it weren't for the red light on the floor, you'd never know it's on. Very low 37 decibels. I also only use Finish Quantum in both machines. I can go on and on. The best dishwasher out there. You'll enjoy more every day. Congratulations!


Post# 1019818 , Reply# 4   1/2/2019 at 13:59 (287 days old) by RevvinKevin (So. Cal.)        
45% off!

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As I mentioned I bought this at the Sears Outlet and the best part is it was marked down 45%! I probably wouldn't have bought it w/o the discount. Of course the very small dent really shows in the photo, but I hardly notice it.

Yes as Leon mentioned there's a red light that shines on the floor as it's running, very cool and necessary, being it's SO quiet.

I will have to try all the cycles and see what works best for our needs. I don't pre-wash but I do lightly rinse. I'm curious if the 1 hr cycle will do the job got me. I will usually start it as I leave for work or just before going to bed, but with this on being SO quiet, I suppose it doesn't matter when I run it!


Post# 1019821 , Reply# 5   1/2/2019 at 14:37 (287 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)        

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Kevin and Leon, you know the three of us are going to face the AW tribunal for singing the praises of modern dishwashers, but what has been stated above is 100% correct.  As much as I wanted to enjoy my vintage dishwashers (a KDI-21, the infamous Thundering Thermador -- admittedly a poor performer, an ISE Classic Supreme), they all fell short when it came to glassware, and the requirement for phosphates was inconvenient.

 

I got my Miele from the ReStore and have never looked back.  It's the best performing dishwasher I've ever owned and it's entirely civilized in its quiet operation.  The only thing I had to get used to was stooping lower to load the bottom rack due to the tall tub design.   My machine even has the water softening system, but I don't bother to use it.  The door pops open at the end of the cycle to help with drying, which is very effective.

 

Modern dishwashers may take longer to do their jobs, but they're much more thorough and the results are absolutely worth the wait.  The only thing I can't do with my Miele is give it a seriously stacked and packed Bob-Load for the sport of it.  The spray isn't strong enough to reach through the layers like it does on an old-school machine.  That's a small price to pay, and I can still pack it full with a few things wedged in here or perched there, so I'm fine with that small compromise.

 

Congratulations Kevin!  Enjoy your new Bosch/souvenir of the (likely soon to be) late great Sears!


Post# 1019826 , Reply# 6   1/2/2019 at 15:37 (287 days old) by spiralator60 (Los Angeles)        
Question

Kevin,

Congratulations!

Does this model have a water softening system, specifically a salt reservoir?


Post# 1019827 , Reply# 7   1/2/2019 at 15:47 (287 days old) by steved (Guilderland, New York)        
Hang me as well

Although I love my vintage dishwashers, our daily driver is a Bosch-sourced Frigidaire that I bought for a song. I have to take in consideration the hubby who wants an easily-loaded large capacity machine that produces clean results. Since we're not big fans of the stainless steel look, I painted mine with a metallic bronze color. I'm doing the SS front of our range to match in the spring when its warmer.


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Post# 1019835 , Reply# 8   1/2/2019 at 16:48 (287 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Bosch DW - The current benchmark, world wide

Here in the EU BSH DW are the dominating design.

They are simple and because they have uni-sized a lot of parts, they got really cgeap really quick.

Their EcoSilenceDrive is super efficent, super silent and allows for variable spray pressures.
Both the wash and the drain pump are "sensing". At least over here, at the begining of the cycle before filling the wash pump runs dry at 3 diferent speeds to calibrate. After filling during wetting, the machine monitors the pump rpm to look for the smallest sign of cavitating. More water is added as needed. The drain pump shuts of right after rraining is done, also sensing for the pump running dry.

These should all have a water diverter though. Not sure if the diverter does have a position that runs all the arms at once.

Did I mention that most cycles run with 4gal or less?
I think the highest theoreticly possible is at about 7gal, but I could be wrong.
And a typical "Auto" cycle consist of pre-wash, wash, filter flush and\or water softner regeneration, interim rinse, final rinse.
Over here, the most a BSH DW would ever use would be 4.75gal, and from what I can see, in the US the highest usage is 6.5gal (though they don't go quite as low as EU machines).


Quick question: Does your do the sensing at the begining of the cycle?

Here, the machine first drains for a couple of seconds. Then the wash pump starts up (barely audible) and ramps up step by step.
That whole process takes about one minute and only then it starts filling.


Post# 1019844 , Reply# 9   1/2/2019 at 17:22 (287 days old) by eurekastar (Amarillo, Texas)        
Congratulations on the discounted Bosch!

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I had a Bosch 800 in my last house and thought it was great!  While two hours seems long, it is significantly shorter than the 4 1/2 hours for my current Kenmore Elite.  I can't wait for it to go on the fritz so I can get another Bosch!


Post# 1019886 , Reply# 10   1/2/2019 at 21:07 (287 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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That's a really great machine, Kevin, you should be happy with that for a long time.

My mother moved from her house to an apartment 18 months ago and we replaced the BOL Whirlpool plastic-tub horror show with a TOL Bosch bought from some friends that remodeled with the newer black-stainless design. They had the Bosch for about a year and stored it for another year before I snagged it for mom, so it's about 4 years old now. Hers has a built-in water softener that really makes a huge difference in our hard water town.

You can see the water system on the left side of the tank and her fancy-schmancy display on the floor that tells remaining cycle time and current action. This is her second Bosch, is nearly silent and cleans amazingly well. I saw a Thermador version of this same unit at the Mart a this summer for $425 and it was all I could do to tear myself away from it.


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Post# 1019918 , Reply# 11   1/2/2019 at 23:35 (287 days old) by golittlesport (California)        

Congrats on your new DW Kevin! Do you like having the top third rack?

Post# 1019923 , Reply# 12   1/3/2019 at 02:17 (287 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Congrats, I like the look and setup. Bosch makes good machines, that for sure.

Post# 1019988 , Reply# 13   1/3/2019 at 14:02 (286 days old) by revvinkevin (So. Cal.)        

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Thank you everyone for your comments, and confirming this is a good dishwasher, all very much appreciated!

...the AW tribunal for singing the praises of modern dishwashers... 

Too funny Ralph, but also so true, LOL. 

 

Darryl: no this one does not have the water softening system.  Mark (Markymark) is here visiting and was saying the models built for the US market do not have the integrated water softener.

 

Greg: Thank you!    Also, the one you bought for your mom is truly a TOL model and that floor display is awesome!

 

Rich: So far that top silverware rack is nice and I like the idea of it. It does take a little more time to load, but I'm OK with that.  I noticed the other racks have less height available due to this extra rack.  I can still get my large cutting board in the bottom rack, but it's not as easy as it was in the KA.

 

Mark & I were chatting about detergent and showed him this is what I use.  He looked it up to confirm, but said this one from Costco is top rated by Consumer Reports (for what it's worth).   I've had good results with it and expect better results with this new Bosch.

 

I am looking forward to running more loads of dishes to see how it does!

 

Kevin

 

 


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This post was last edited 01/03/2019 at 16:10
Post# 1019992 , Reply# 14   1/3/2019 at 16:13 (286 days old) by revvinkevin (So. Cal.)        

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Does anyone know how many washes / rinses each cycle has on this machine?   It would be nice to know if it does a pre-wash or not, so I can add detergent for that.

 

I would sit and listen to it, but I would get bored sitting there (with nothing to watch) for 2 hours, haha.

 

Thanks in advance!

Kevin


Post# 1020005 , Reply# 15   1/3/2019 at 17:28 (286 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

The Speed 60 should not, all others are sensor reading dependent.

Post# 1020019 , Reply# 16   1/3/2019 at 18:41 (286 days old) by revvinkevin (So. Cal.)        

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Thanks Henrik, but there should be a "basic" number of washes / rinses set I assume.

 

So this "sensor" controls or adds rinses until the water is clean, yes?

 

My (WP built) Kitchenaid for example did prewash-wash-rinse-rinse I believe (don't remember if there were 2 or 3 rinses).

 

 

  


Post# 1020022 , Reply# 17   1/3/2019 at 19:31 (286 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

Bosches more cancel phases rather then add them.
The DW begins the prewash, and if after 10 or so minutes the soil level isn't to high, it just adds the detergent, otherwise it drains and starts the next prewash repeating the sensing a few minutes later.
During the rinses, it tracks cloudiness, if a certain value of obstruction of the optical sensing beam somewhere in the water path is reached within a certain time, it immediatly drains and starts the next rinse.
Otherwise, at the end of that time period, it drains.

A fill is about 3-4l.

The lowest usage cycle is the is Normal at 8.8l. I suppose that would be wash-rinse-final rinse with lower pump rpm.
Next up would be at prewash-wash-rinse-final rinse.
Acording to usage from the manuals, I would guess that is Autos minimum layout.
Heavy should be prewash-prewash-wash-rinse-final rinse at about 19l, the additional pre-wash being prefered over another default post wash rinse to get temperatures for the wash up quickly.

Next it would probably add another post wash rinse, and that would be Normals, Heavys and Autos maximum layout.
Ecos max layout appears to be 5-fill cycle with probably one prewash only and more post wash rinses to reduce machine heating activity for drying.

For the US machines an additional prewash might be triggered by too low incomming water temperature as well.

Keep in mind that after the wash there should be a quick multi-stage filter flush using about 1l in every cycle.
Though they might kick that if sensed soil level is low enough; you never know today.



Here, the max I can think of off the top of my head is prewash-wash-rinse-rinse-final rinse on the theoretical max Auto cycle with up to 18l or so of usage.
Auto can go as low as 7l, but AFAIK that basicly only triggers with close to no load. Not sure if that is wash-final rinse or wash-rinse-final rinse with lower Eco like fills.

Our machines can now do partial water exchanges after a prewash.
Combined with lower spray pressures, that drove our Eco cycle down to 9,5l of water while still technicly doing prewash-wash-rinse-final rinse. That first prewash-wash uses about 3-4l, 1l is reserved for filter flushing, the 2 rinses are compketly dofferent baths AFAIK bith both using just verry little water.

We did have DW that re-used the final rinse water of a previous cycle for the next pre-wash.
That dropped usage to 6l on the BSH units. That is about 1.6gal for a full load.
These machines never were A+++ rated though I think as they had to use the hotter final rinse pattern of the A++ cycle design to ensure nothing could grow in that watet.
They have been eliminated from the lineup by now though as they added a lot of complexity for verry little everyday gain and people kimd of didn't like the idea.


Post# 1020040 , Reply# 18   1/3/2019 at 22:07 (286 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        
3rd rack...

I have a KA with the third rack.  It's fine 95% of the time, the other 5% it goes away.  I have large dinner plates so i cannot drop my upper rack and the third rack will not allow my stemware to load properly - well the upper rack of my KA is less then optimum for stemware-- so the 3rd rack gets pulled. Other than that I use it often, not ever for silverware, just lids, plastic stuff and spatter screens.

 

I miss one aspect of my old upper mid line GE unit, the upper rack was great for all kinds of stemware, not so much on the KA.  None of my stuff sits well in the racks now.  The holidays saw lots of wine glasses, cordials and champaign flutes, less that optimum loading on all of those.  Do not know what KA was thinking.

 

Really a minor complaint, otherwise I LOVE this DW, never a dirty dish and I put some really baked on stuff in over the holidays and all came out spotless.


Post# 1020097 , Reply# 19   1/4/2019 at 11:30 (285 days old) by leononmaui (Maui Hawaii)        
Kirkland Dishwasher tabe

Careful about using the Costco dishwasher tabs. I bought and used only 2 times. The inside of my dishwasher had a white film all over it. I returned them. I also wanted to try Costco laundry pods, but was afraid of what may happen to the inside of my front loader. I know both products got excellent reviews, but not from me.

Post# 1020114 , Reply# 20   1/4/2019 at 15:47 (285 days old) by 48bencix (Sacramento CA)        
Condensing Dry System

I believe some if not all Bosch Dishwashers use Condensing Dry, with no added heat. Extra dry uses hotter water. Some reviews state that water remains in the bottom. Should be pumped out after dry cycle. Have you or others had a problem with this? I plan on the lower or lowest cost Bosch. It looks pretty nice to me. Also lower cost units are made here in US.

Post# 1020130 , Reply# 21   1/4/2019 at 17:49 (285 days old) by eurekastar (Amarillo, Texas)        
Condensing Dry System

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Plastic items are the only things that didn't come out thoroughly dry in my Bosch dishwasher.  I've seen some people who complain a lot about that, but it was never a problem for me since I didn't wash a lot of plastic items.  Still, you can't beat a Bosch for it's cleaning ability and quietness.  And I think the machines at the lower price point use the same wash system as the more expensive lines.  They're just not as feature rich or quiet. 


Post# 1020131 , Reply# 22   1/4/2019 at 17:52 (285 days old) by Ultralux88 (Denver)        

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The only two new dishwashers I ever recommend are the Bosch and Miele. Both are excellent, but I always say you get the most dishwasher for your money with a Bosch!

Post# 1020134 , Reply# 23   1/4/2019 at 18:13 (285 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Condensing drying

Yes, all DW sold in the US under the Bosch brand currently use the static condensing drying system.
Final rinse temperatures are usually 160°F, a little less for the Normal\Eco cycles and go as low as 140F for the delicate cycley IIRC.

There will always remain some water in any DW sump.
On machines without manual filter, you of course don't see that usually.
When removing the filters for cleaning, the might be about 1/2" of water sitting in the sump, usually no more, but that is true for any other machine as well.
Just before the end of the cycle, the machine always drains for a few seconds.
As long as there is no water visible when the filter is in place, there should be no problem. If there is a bigger amount of water you will have to check the drain system.




Model wise I wouldn't buy below the Series 300.

Machines of the Ascenta line and Series 100 lines are quite "noisy" (believe me, 44dB or 45dB versus 50+dB is such an incredible difference; it's one of these things where you think your DW isn't that loud, then you buy a silent unit and one day visiting somebody you suddenly wonder how loud the dishwasher is, even though its no cheap unit either).

And they have the glued 2-piece tub design with a plastic bottom.
There have been several cases of the previous generation machines and some of the first machines of the current generation as well suffering from leaks along that seal after a few years.
Machines then often randomly trigger the flood protection switch, but seem to work again after a day or two for a few cycles and when checking there is usually only verry little sign of any leak.
Cause of that is the difference in thermal expansion between the plastic bottom and stainless steal upper tub straing the seals and glue.
While there are repair sets for these, repairs caneither not work at all or fail pretty quickly again and are pretty tricky or expensive to get done.


Post# 1020157 , Reply# 24   1/5/2019 at 01:01 (285 days old) by Joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA)        

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There is no need to add detergent for the prewash. When I got my Bosch...which I have had nearly 14 years...it seemed weird not adding any detergent for the prewash. But after a week or two of clean dishes you won’t even think about it anymore!

As previously mentioned, the “prewash” water may be used for the main wash. Sometimes I would be surprised that it didn’t do a water change before going into the main wash, but I have learned to trust its sensors.


Post# 1020177 , Reply# 25   1/5/2019 at 09:14 (284 days old) by Rolls_rapide (0)        
My tuppenceworth concerning Bosch dishwashers...

The diverter valve:

My 2003 model (both baskets and overhead shower) and my mum's 2013 (both baskets, no overhead shower) fill on the prewash, then switch the diverter valve to 'all spray' pattern, with a fairly low spray pressure. This basically soaks everything, and allows the machine to check water level, topping up where necessary.

After a few minutes of wetting out, the wash pump slows down, the diverter valve shifts, and water with a higher pressure is sent to the lower basket. (My machine: 50 seconds. Mum's machine: about 4.5 minutes).

The upper basket and the overhead shower (overhead shower is simply an extension of the upper basket water circuit) gets similar, but at a lower pressure. (My machine 50 seconds, Mum's: 1.5 minutes).

I have noticed that Mum's machine has an even more vigorous spray pressure to the bottom basket during the main wash; the motor speeds up even more. But the upper basket gets a moderate action. Everything comes out clean in that machine.

My particular (old) machine has always irritated me. Lethargic spray action, dithering during turbidity sensing, and basically the whole machine could have been better designed.


Post# 1020195 , Reply# 26   1/5/2019 at 11:13 (284 days old) by labboy (SD, CA)        
Love our Bosch

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We have an 800 series...similar but with front controls. It also has the third rack and water softener. Amazingly quiet, great cleaner and uses minimal water. I won't ever get another dishwasher without an internal water softener. (Hard water here and don't want a full house water softener.)

Bob


Post# 1020292 , Reply# 27   1/6/2019 at 04:10 (284 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

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I'm looking at getting one myself,, they've so many models it's confusing to figure out their "coding' BTW they do sell machines in the US and Canada with water softeners.. like this one SHXM63WS5N and quite a few others.

Post# 1020425 , Reply# 28   1/7/2019 at 11:10 (282 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        
Cycles

I have a very similar 300 series model. Normal rarely does a prewash. Typically main wash, and two rinses. It does quite a good job. Auto is my to go to cycle. It does the prewash, then main wash, then two rinses. I add a bit of cascade complete gel to the bottom of the tub for the prewash to help remove heavier soils and coffee grounds. Heavy is incredible. However, I find that it only runs the bottom rack during the main wash and leaves some items on the top looking a little dull. Otherwise, it is perfect. We don’t use the speed 30 cycle because it doesn’t allow for a long enough wash. Your speed 60 with extra dry on might be a good cycle. However Normal is likely just a bit longer and more effective.

Our machines does perform the sensing operation at the beginning of the cycle. I clean the filter before every cycle to ensure the best performance. Enjoy your machine. We certainly have!


Post# 1020709 , Reply# 29   1/10/2019 at 01:10 (280 days old) by suds (Brighton, United Kingdom)        
Miele & Siemens (Bosch equivalent)

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RevvinKevin - I reckon we’re onto a winner! :)

Henene4 - I’ve noticed extra whirring/clicking/fiddling as you state with the “sensing” interesting indeed and quite a delay once one has presses start which is silent so thanks for answering that!- also noticed an “air blowing” sound which continues when opening the door mid wash cycles - is that that the Zeolith system “revving up”?? I still need to check how I can see water consumption after a cycle - need to play with it more.

So have spent the last 3 months without a dishwasher due to renovations and new kitchen extension (nightmare!!). Have elected to pair up my Miele G6512SC with a TOL Siemens IQ700 (basically TOL Bosch but I preferred I it’s slightly “cleaner look” - I’m not sure which US Bosch this equates to ) either side of the sink and raised both circa 20cm’s which has made for much comfier access, have been keen on this for years. Attached are some pics of the computer generated image and then work in progress (sorry for the messy pics!) . Was planning to pair up with another Miele (and almost a Fisher & Paykel Dishdrawer) but as per above comments just could not ignore the Siemens with it’s versatile baskets, tall item spray-head for tall oven trays/racks, Zeolith drying (which seems to work a treat ), quiet operation and sofar gleaming results with general everyday loads - have yet to test it with proper baked on dinner party aftermath....looking forward to it though ;) . I may, in time, upgrade the Miele to the new G7000 auto-dosing series when released but for now still v v happy with Miele however I will be performance testing them against each other ;)

Best of both worlds hopefully :)


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Post# 1020721 , Reply# 30   1/10/2019 at 06:57 (279 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
Air blowing

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To my knowledge, only the TOL Thermador models have the Zeolite. What you hear is pressurized air being released through the vent in the water inlet.

Post# 1020722 , Reply# 31   1/10/2019 at 06:59 (279 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Whoops, didn't see that youvwere from the UK. Never mind about the Thermador then. Still, the whistle sound is most likely air being released.

Post# 1020724 , Reply# 32   1/10/2019 at 07:27 (279 days old) by suds (Brighton, United Kingdom)        
Siemens - sound

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Hi H!

It’s more like a fan that is running in the tub somewhere - definite “blowing” sound


Post# 1020732 , Reply# 33   1/10/2019 at 11:51 (279 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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See... this is what I get for half-reading comments during my lunch break.

Okay, the sound you hear is with the door open. Yes, that can indeed be the Zeolite fan going. I once opened a higer-end Bosch with Zeolite during the prewash and was surprised to find the Zeolite fan continuing to run with the door open.


Post# 1020746 , Reply# 34   1/10/2019 at 17:01 (279 days old) by suds (Brighton, United Kingdom)        
Thx :)

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Hey Logixx!

Ha ha - no probs always appreciative of feedback. Ok that makes sense re: Zeolith Fan - just surprised
That it seems to run throughout the cycle !? :)


Post# 1020747 , Reply# 35   1/10/2019 at 17:04 (279 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

The Zeolith mineral is dried by a seperate heater in the Zeolith compartment during the cycle.
When how with which parameters I don't know, but it would make sense that it's running all the time with the Zeolith heater on during all the wash operations and then just turns off once drying.


Post# 1020748 , Reply# 36   1/10/2019 at 17:15 (279 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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I don't know if it runs the entire (washing) cycle. I don't think so. I know that the steam emitted from the drying of the mineral is to help heat the wash water - so it should switch off once the water heating cycle is over.




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