Thread Number: 78126
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Cold Fill Only Washing Machines and Dishwashers
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|Post# 1021520   1/17/2019 at 19:29 (1,870 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)
While coping with the drama of AEG Lavamat toplader it came as quite a shock that apparently washing machines sold in Europe with hot and cold connections have become rare. Nearly all domestic washing machines and dishwashers are now cold fill only, and have been so for some time.
This seems to bother more than a few, such as those with "free" hot water that comes from say solar heating panels. That and or they just for various reasons wish to use hot water out of the taps.
Manufacturers counter that modern dishwashers and washing machines use far less water than previously. This means (according to their theories) that in most instances even from a "hot" water tap incoming water wouldn't be anywhere near.
We all recall washing machines of old with the three dials (temperature, program sequence, and program selector), but modern machines are now totally electronic and build temperature and other parameters into the cycle chosen.
Do find interesting that Electrolux/AEG and others who sell washers outside of Europe offer modifications of same models that add a cold/20C cycle, this effectively turns off thermostats/heaters and allows one to use whatever incoming water temp desired without affecting cycle length/performance.
|Post# 1021538 , Reply# 1   1/17/2019 at 22:54 (1,869 days old) by schulthess (Switzerland)
Major houshold appliances manufacturers allow - or at least for the German, Austrian and Swiss market (DACH) - dishwasher to run with hot water supply (up to 70 degrees celsius) and offer washing machines that have both hot and cold-water intake. Electrolux/AEG, Miele, Schulthess, BSH and even Beko would have an option for hot-water supply or would offer models that run with hot, cold and rain water (while the machine uses rainwater for prewash and mainwash but not for the final rinse for sure, or warm water for the first rinse).
As for Switzerland, the older washing machines were running only with cold water. Only since around late 90ies manufactures came with eco-friendly washing machines to use warm water heated with renewable ressources.
|Post# 1021560 , Reply# 2   1/18/2019 at 07:00 (1,869 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))
AFAIK EU washing machines are required to have a 20C cycle in some form.
Further, hot fills became somewhat of a moot point in lots of setups today.
Our washers barely ever use more then 15-20l (5gal) of water per fill maximum. In most setups, water either barely gets warm at that point and even if, a lot of hot water sits in the pipe afterwards.
With dishwashers fills generally use no more then 2 gal.
Combine that with generally lower water temperatures used and the savings in the end become miniscule to non existent, plus machines that offer hot fills are often that much more expensive that they don't have any real market share.
Though in germany hot fill washers were pretty rare throughout history.
|Post# 1021561 , Reply# 3   1/18/2019 at 07:23 (1,869 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)
Only "Kalt" on my Lavamat toplader is for the Wool cycle. Lowest for rest is 30C.
Now the Lavamat 88840 does have a 20C for "Cottons/Linens/Easy Cares". Other than that again only other is Wool cycle.
Have heard/read that bit about hot water cooling down from taps to machine. One supposes it is true, but must vary by how long the run is between pipes/hoses and machine.
Can fill my Miele with "hot" tap water "> 50C or 60C) and know that is the water entering machine because the thermostat clunks off.
For the AEG Lavamat front loader when am in a hurry just set machine to "20C" and fill with warm water. Using any good TOL detergent like Persil results are just fine.
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|Post# 1021564 , Reply# 4   1/18/2019 at 08:08 (1,869 days old) by schulthess (Switzerland)
Usually in new built houses (at least in Switzerland there are high requirements) the waterpipes for hot water are insulated and washing machines are usually placed close to the hot water tank in the basement, therefore cooling of water is not a really big issue.
If the water is being heated almost without any costs it still makes sense to have a hot-water inlet washing machine. Some dishwashers connected to hot water will automatically do a short pre-rinse to slightly preheat the dishes and or to get really hot water (V-Zug for sure and Siemens I guess).
Usually if one can afford a eco-friendly house with heat-pump heating or similar, they will also get this washing machine with warm-water inlet and even a tesla powewall home battery or whatever.
Btw. the newest TOL Miele comes with hot and cold water inlet by default...
I still see advantages of hot-water supply for washing machines: 40 degrees celsius usually reached within very short time at full load (perfect to have enzyms work immediately) and less time to reach higher temperatures, better rinsing, cleaner detergent compartment because flushed with hot water. Especially on quick programs the advantage is big.
|Post# 1021566 , Reply# 5   1/18/2019 at 08:40 (1,869 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))
Miele has the most advanced hot fill algorhythm of the brands avaible here in Germany getting you savings up to 800Wh for a 60C full cottons load.
That is with 55C water at the machine.
On the other side of this I once a swiss TV segment about somebody who bought a Arcrelik-made machine under some brand who was shocked that his machine didn't use any hot water intake on anything else then Cotton cycles above 40C (that means not including 40C).
|Post# 1021568 , Reply# 6   1/18/2019 at 08:54 (1,869 days old) by schulthess (Switzerland)
True that Henene4, it was V-Zug who had been blaimed for wrong customer information in their brochure.
The issue was with the Adorina, the budget line of V-Zug. These Adorinas 20 years ago have been sourced from AEG, afterwards, about 10 year ago, from Whirlpool/Bauknecht and recently from Beko.
I think that V-Zug offerd them to upgrade for the Adora, which is using hot water for temperatures below 40 degrees celsius.
Still bad for V-Zug that negative publicity, Swiss people check the details, so should V-Zug, especially because they are selling these rebaged Bekos for a premium price.
|Post# 1021572 , Reply# 7   1/18/2019 at 10:07 (1,869 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)
Overhere in the Netherlands it doesn't make sense to have a hot fill machine. We don't have tank water heaters, or they are at least very rare. Most people have a combo boiler/water heater, for both central heating and hot water. Most of them have a slow start when you turn on the hot water tap, it takes a while before the water gets hot. Totally useless for filling washing machines that are already frugal with water.
|Post# 1021575 , Reply# 8   1/18/2019 at 10:21 (1,869 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)
Neighbors bought this front load Whirlpool set with cold fill only and condenser dryer that takes 2 1/2 hours to dry a load of towels. Everyone tried to tell them to buy a conventional stack unit but he will only listen to the minimum wage sales person at Lowes that wants to sell this set for 2X what a conventional stack unit cost for the big commission.
|Post# 1021579 , Reply# 9   1/18/2019 at 10:42 (1,869 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)
Are the only British manufacturer to do a dual fill machine for those with free hot water other wise its all cold fill only and has been since the 80's on a lot of machines.
As we never had the luxury of a tank of hot water that was cheap we never had hot water runs put to the washer the dishwasher does have the option of hot fill but again its no bonus as the boiler heats what it needs and we have no storage tanks, You need to have a pretty big roof to get solar hot water but as most of UK houses are built without hot water tanks these days who is going to pay to have it put back in ??? Oh and it really is not such a big deal to have to wait a few more minutes while the machines heat up and IMHO they clean better.
|Post# 1021611 , Reply# 10   1/18/2019 at 15:57 (1,869 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)
If a building has steam or hot water heating here in USA, a side arm off the boiler is common. It is and has been a popular arrangement because it provides "free" hot water. By that meaning instead of a separate tank or whatever water heater, hot water comes from same energy used to provide central heating.
Downside to this (and some local officials and others are taking notice) is that using such a system requires a boiler to be "on" all year long. That is a certain minimum temperature must be kept in order to provide hot water. This is an anathema to some because they see it as a huge waste to keep boiler firing all year round.
In warmer times of year our tap hot water is between 140F and 160F. When the boilers are firing full blast during cold weather that starts at 160F or higher.
System also has a recirculating device that keeps hot water moving through pipes 24/7, resulting in instant hot water.
|Post# 1021648 , Reply# 11   1/19/2019 at 00:33 (1,868 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)
Even my Miele w1986 has hot and cold hoses, but it can be programmed for either. When I got it, everything tested correctly but when using the machine I found it was only filling with cold water. With the help of Eddy1210 I was able to reprogram it for hot fill. I'm glad because it sits right beside the water heater which is at least 150F so the water doesn't have a chance to cool down.
|Post# 1021684 , Reply# 12   1/19/2019 at 10:04 (1,868 days old) by hoovermatic (UK)
If I remember correctly, my mother's first automatic washing machine was hot and cold fill and I never saw the point of it. By the time the water was becoming hot as it entered the machine, the cold water had filled it to the required level and the cycle had begun. So the water was cold anyway. The only programme that filled using exclusively hot water was the 95 degree wash cycle and that was so rarely used anyway. I thought the whole point of cold fill was to maximise the efficacy of biological detergents?
|Post# 1021688 , Reply# 13   1/19/2019 at 11:52 (1,868 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)
Older Miele washers sold in USA (and perhaps elsewhere as well)required both hot and cold water connections. Am speaking of the W700, W1070 and W1065, not sure about 1900 series onwards.
When my W1070 arrived since water connection wasn't going to be permanent (connect and disconnect hoses when machine is in use), thought could simply cap off either hot or cold and use just the one hose. That was how my previous front loader (Malber, built by Philco SPA), did things.
Miele tech said, no dice machine needs both. Soon found out why.
When thermostat is set to nil, washer simply takes in whatever water comes from taps for washing. OTOH if temp is set for say "100F" and machine senses water in tub has met or exceeds it not only "clunks" off the thermostat, but filling pattern changes which leads one to believe it stops taking the offending water (hot or cold) depending upon what needs doing. That is if machine is set for 100F and senses that temp is already in tub, then no more hot water, but will top off with cold. Of course should after machine begins the wash it detects temp has dropped, on "clunks" the heater again.
|Post# 1021690 , Reply# 14   1/19/2019 at 11:59 (1,868 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)
"I thought the whole point of cold fill was to maximise the efficacy of biological detergents? "
My older Miele W1070 like other machines of same vintage has a pre-wash as part of "Normal" cottons/linens/Permanent Press cycles.
If one was using any of the new "biological" pre-soaks it went into that cycle. This and a pre-wash in cold, cool or heated to "warm" (about 100F - body temp) flushed out soils and prevented certain stains from being set.
Now that enzymes are pretty much standard in all TOL detergents pre-wash cycles have pretty much vanished from "Normal". If they still are a selectable option it is a separate cycle.
Theory now is machines start from cold to give all components of detergents (enzymes, bleaches, etc...) time to work at proper temps. Some machines even have a "stain" option that not only dispenses such products at proper time, but changes the heating profile to give them better time to work.
|Post# 1021800 , Reply# 15   1/20/2019 at 04:24 (1,867 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)
My mother had a similar Miele like the one in this Youtube video.
There is a BIO cycle one can see clearly at 0:11. Instructions were to use it at 60 °C to make full use of biological detergents. It provided a high water level that made it very wasteful even back then and thus was never used in our home.
My mothers Miele was a very similar but later model and by then the program was called somthing like "Extra Prewash" and I think you had to advance the timer by hand
to "Drain" to make for a longer soak if you wanted to, but still at 60 °C.
The regular (non Bio) prewash as part of a normal wash was much cooler in warm water only. Of course everything was cold start as it was the norm in Germany.
Grandmother had a late 1970`s Zanussi made "Privileg RS 800" toploader that only had three fixed temperatures (30-60-95) and again there was an optional Bio Prewash at 60 °C as part of the most agressive cycle. A normal prewash was at 30.
Don`t know at what time German and Italian washer manufacturers finally found out that enzymes worked best at 40 °. Certainly wasn`t before the 1980`s...
CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrboilwash's LINK
|Post# 1021802 , Reply# 16   1/20/2019 at 05:19 (1,867 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)
|Post# 1021805 , Reply# 17   1/20/2019 at 06:27 (1,867 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)
Thanks Louis !
So the AEG was ahead of its time by limiting the temperature for the extra prewash to 40 °C. I am missing the word Bio though.
My detergent bible mentions early enzymes of the 60`s when it was finally possible to produce them biologically with the help of bacteria were sufficiently active up to 65 °C in the washing conditions of the time. Whatever "sufficiently active" means.
It also says the enzyme soaks we had decades before the 60`s which were made from pancreas were much more sensitive to high temperatures and high pH levels.
|Post# 1021811 , Reply# 18   1/20/2019 at 07:17 (1,867 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))
There is a broad spectrum of enzymes that can be used in detergents.
For example many DW detergents over here have enzymes focused on low temp and high temp spectrums mostly aimed at the 45C to 65C range (that is between 100F and 150F) simply because DWs over here heat up incredibly quick - much faster then a washer - and the most used cycles run in that range.
Washers often run cycles at lower temp. Thus enzymes are chosen for wash temperatures up to 40C.
Even if a cycle with higher temperature is chosen, most washers will still spend enough time at the lower temperature spectrum.
Against that on older machines, most washers would heat quicker to higher temperatures and spend more time at those higher temperatures.
Thus, the early enzyme mixtures were designed towards those temperatures.
Dtergents and machines have to work together. That's why modern detergents work best in modern washers or why the US has entirely different detergent formulas then the EU.
|Post# 1021812 , Reply# 19   1/20/2019 at 07:19 (1,867 days old) by logixx (Germany)
My washer also has hot/cold inlets. I really liked using the hot-water capability - however, my previous and also the current laundry room only have cold water available. When connected to hot, the washer will initially flush the detergent drawer with cold water and then alternate hot and cold to achieve about 40C in the drum and heat from there.
I have never bothered with hot water for any of our Bosch dishwashers. They preheat the water before it enters the tub and also rely on cold water for the drying cycle. Connecting and setting the dishwasher to hot fill saves a little time and energy during the cleaning phases but extends the drying portion - so the overall time saved is like 5 minutes or so.
As for BIO options. My Big/Duet has a Clean+ option that raises the temp gradually on a 40C wash along with stain remover dispensed later in in the wash. I don't think I've ever used it. The phases are optimized for enzymes -> surfactants -> oxy bleach.
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|Post# 1021815 , Reply# 20   1/20/2019 at 08:08 (1,867 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))
All current EU Whirlpool machines excluding the Hotpoint based machines should do an enzyme stage in any cotton and synthetic cycle at 40C or above.
Heats to somewhere slightly below 40C then continues heating after a few minutes.
|Post# 1021821 , Reply# 21   1/20/2019 at 09:40 (1,867 days old) by logixx (Germany)
Clean+ heats in three distinct steps. 😉 It also won't heat above 42C even with a higher temp chosen.
As for Bauknecht and Hotpoint: four out the 30 front loaders offered on Bauknecht's German site are Hotpoint washers, it seems. I know Bauknecht washers dont have the best rep to begin with - but since they are Hotpoint units now... gurl bye.
|Post# 1021827 , Reply# 22   1/20/2019 at 10:26 (1,867 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))
Just ment that as an additional comment.
Though they did kill of Clean+ for a long time and when they did their cycle times for cottons all got longer as well.
The new models do have a Clean+ function as well, but their cycles still take 3 or so hours non the less.
Our Bauknecht had a bearing failure after 2 1/2 years or so (and service was horrible), so I don't think they trade much blows compared to Hotpoint.
Only thing is their INSANE cycle times.
4h, for the NON eco cottons cycle...
|Post# 1021883 , Reply# 23   1/20/2019 at 18:59 (1,867 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)
On at least the older Miele washers sold in North America (W770, W1070, W1065) had the "Extra Pre-Wash" which really is a soak cycle.
Starting with cold water is gradually heated up to 140F.
Maddening thing is being a front loader one cannot determine if this soaking period was long enough because cannot open machine and examine laundry.
Once completed one must manually move timer to "drain". This and or if wished start cycle again, however thermostat won't reengage unless water temp drops below setting.
What one loves about these old "three dial" washers is vast amount of user control over cycles. That is within certain limits it is possible to create a bewildering array of choices that match or exceed today's offerings. If one wanted to do Permanent Press at 200F, that is possible. Can do a "Normal Cottons/Linens" wash cycle, but then stop/reset timer and have rinses done as "Permanent Press".
The pre-wash on these older Mieles does heat water up to at least 100F, but only if thermostat is set. In other words IIRC if the thing is at nil, then washer will not heat in any of the cycles period.
Am not sure and would have to research further (maybe in my copy of service manual) heating pre-wash water to at least 100F means washer can fill with "hot" water for main wash and not have to worry about setting certain marks. It also would make for faster heating since not starting completely from tap cold water.
Also to my mind it would make no sense to dump cold water onto laundry that was just heated to 100F, only have to begin to reheat the load again. Mind you these washers had heating power of 3200 watts, thus more than capable of doing so in relatively short time.
|Post# 1021884 , Reply# 24   1/20/2019 at 19:03 (1,867 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)
My AEG/Lavamat toplader has a "40-60 Mix" cycle which IIRC is designed to give 60C results at 40C. This is achieved (from what one has gleaned via internet postings) by careful manipulation of heating giving modern enzyme (and presumably perhaps bleach) laden detergents best working time and temperature working conditions.
Interestingly the "Stain" option on my Lavamat 88840 can be used with any temperature. OTOH the toplader limits it to cycles at or below 40C.