Thread Number: 78322  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
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Post# 1023460   2/3/2019 at 04:23 (1,844 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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This year's models have been renamed to V2000 to 6000. The 4000 model optionally comes with two detergent drawers - one with storage tanks for detergent and/or softener. The 4000 dryer doubles as a dehumidifier to dry the ambient air in your laundry room if you like to line-dry you laundry.

English manual for the washer is already available:

Post# 1023463 , Reply# 1   2/3/2019 at 05:32 (1,844 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
So close to perfection

These machines are just the benchmark for what the perfect washer should be like, no debate about that.

I suppose they made the switch to all-touch displays on all machines for production cost reasons.
They do their lineup seperation via software now which is ok for me.

They added a first wash cycle which is a nice adition, as well as turning the pre-wash option button into a multi purpose one for selecting detergent type which makes that even more flexible.

The idea with the second drawer is smart. No bending to refill and you still have a fully functioning detergent drawer.
Only slight nick there: There is no fully fledged out model with OptiDos and also no fully fledged out model without heatpump. So you have to either have all temperature and cycle selections with heatpump heating OR reduced cycle count with automatic dosing, which is kind of disappointing.
But that is crying at high level.
I am sure they couldn't fit the second drawer AND heatpump in one, but having a V6000 with OptiDos instead of a heatpump as an option would have been a good idea I think.

They now allow you to activate the drum light manually (yay) and even went to that verry spot of deactivating it on the Eco label cycles which just shows the attention to detail.

One thing they might add on the next revision: An optical rinse water sensor for automatic rinse adjustment. Could recalibrate everytime a clean washer cycle is run, could certainly be integrated in there.

But overall, stellar machines IMO.

They didn't change the dryers much.

Can't comment on how well the room dryer would work. Don't think that would find widespread adoption in Germany.

Their filtration system is still amazing, and so is their drying metrics. Never seen so much flexibility on a dryer.
Though I think they cut 1 drying level even on the high end machine.

Amazing technology as well (reversing, inverter motor, inverter heatpump, basicly self cleaning condenser).
And not all that slow even.

Only grudge is the 105l drum size. That is small for such a high end appliance.
Don't get me wrong, it is plenty for most typical loads.
But beyond 5kg is packing it. But I could be wrong.

However these upgrades were more incremental then a redesign, so changing the dryer drum size wasn't really possible.

One day I'll get me a TOL washer/dryer set from them.
For my projected lifestyle they have more then enough capacity, the heatpump systems on both washer and dryer mean no longer feeling guilty doing a high temperature wash.
Incredible amount of cycles, incredibly customizable and thought through to the tee.
Durable, sleek in design.
Oh, yeah, and I can run them at 3.5kW heating power at 240V which is amazing.

Though, now the question is: What will the dishwashers bring for this year?

Post# 1023487 , Reply# 2   2/3/2019 at 12:54 (1,843 days old) by FreshNclean (WA)        
3.5kW heating power at 240V which is amazing. ?

What is so special/unique about 3.5KW for 240V ? What would be a base washer to compared to ?

Post# 1023499 , Reply# 3   2/3/2019 at 14:18 (1,843 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
EU vs US

Most washers over here run at 240V and a normal 10A rated max draw, working out to about 2400W peak.
In reality, most washers are designed at a rated load of 2kW for the heater and about 200W for the motor and other components.
With most loads, that works out to about (and that really is just a rough number) 1 degree Celsius temperature increase per minute.
That would be about 2F per minute.

Most normal "outlet" circuits over here are designed with 10A appliances in mind.

If your circuit breaker panel however is designed with some common sense, many machines that pull lots of current get some higher capacity circuit breakers and their own circuit.
For example, in our house, each of the 2 washers, the dryer and our dishwasher have their own circuit rated at 16A.
Usually the wiring used is the same and rated far higher anyway.

This theoreticaly allows for loads up to about 3800W or even slightly above from the same power source.

The alternative to that is 400V two phase at 10A which the VZug machines can be ordered as as well.

This means you get about 3F per minute temperature increase, or 3C in 2min.
Significantly faster.

In the early days, most automatic washers over here ran on 2 or even 3 phase power with heating powers at about 5kW.
You can imagine the punch that packed.

As things got more standardized, 240V became predominant, but at 16A for a long time.
With the increasing efficiency of washers that still was enough.

Then with current designs, you just don't really need more power in most cases. Some washers go as low as about 1.2kW, though 1.8kW to 2kW is most common.

Some condenser dryers still offer a 16A setting switchable over to 10A (BSH predominantly).
Some flat out just run at 16A regardless as EU regulations allow for so much head room for fault current safety that even a 10A circuit has no issue with that.

The base V2000 is only available as a 10A 2.3kW machine.
The V4000 can have 3.5kW at 400V 2-phase 10A, 3.5kW at 240V 16A or 2.3kW at 240V 10A. This machine should have a 2kW element and a 1.5kW element that either run in series or the smaller one gets disconnected.
Cycle times increase accordingly.
The V6000 has its 1kW heat pump, a 1kW heater and a 1.5kW heater. It can run on the same specs as the V4000 with either only the 1kW heater connected or both.

In 2 phase setups, usually one phase is run as a 240V supply for all normal components and one heater and the other phase is soly used over the other heater.
In the heat pump version of this washer, one phase probably powers the heat pump, the 1kW heater and everything else while the other is used again for the 1.5kW additional heater.

That is also why there are 2 cycle times listed in the cycle charts for the cotton cycles of the V4000 and V6000 with longer one being for the lower power setup.
Differences are anywhere from a minute for the 10C (cold) cotton's cycle up to 35min or more for a 95C boilwash on the V6000.
The V4000 saves about the same though the cycles there are shorter as the preferred medium energy saving setting on the V6000 heats to about 40-50C only with the slower heat pump and only then kicks in the resistive heaters.

The higher the temperature the more time you save with daily used 40C and 60C cycles being anywhere from 10 to 20 minutes quicker.

But on some cycles I would dare to guess that the machine only engages one heater or the other for more gentle temperature increases.

Post# 1023508 , Reply# 4   2/3/2019 at 16:09 (1,843 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
Thanks for the post Logixx

I looked at the English user manual and see that this machine has a detergent dispensing system similar to the W1. It is a different system in that it dispenses detergent and fabric softener while the W1 is dispensing detergent and Hydrogen Peroxide. Do you know if other machines in EU are moving to dispense systems? I think here in the USA there is Maytag that does this, and perhaps the new Whirlpools?

Post# 1023510 , Reply# 5   2/3/2019 at 16:39 (1,843 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Dispensing systems

First that I know of was on a verry rare Miele in the 90s, the W734 LiquidWash:

A far more "dumb" system, but the first of its kind non the less.

Then BSH brought that to the mainstream with iDos which is a simmilar 2-tank system in a drawer, just that 2 of the drawer compartments are sacrificed for it. Those started showing up something like 10 or so years ago I think.

Then Miele brought in their LiquidWash system. They now switched over to the TwinDos system which over here can either be used with the specific detergent/bleach combo offered by Miele (hideously expensive) or with your own choice of detergents or softeners.

AEG showed of their dosing tech last IFA, but failed to deliver machines though I think they wanted to launch january.

Some other brands basicly carbon-copied the iDos system and as the dosing pumps basicly became standardized mass items, they got pretty cheap so even lower end machines now offer that.

Hotpoint had a system over here that used 2 tanks in the bottom of the machine that were filled throught the drawer in an Aqualtis machine for some time.

I saw a TOL Asko model with something somewhat simmilar at IFA 2018. That machine had a multi-line color display, but haven't seen the machine pictured anywhere since.
Edit: Nevermind, that is the machine I saw:

Whirlpool EU offeres an iDos ripoff under the Bauknecht brand here in Germany.

Arcrelik showed off their machines with automatic dosing at IFA 2018 as well and actually launched one under the Beko brand here.

Guess there are some smaller brands that also had such systems, but can't think of any more off the top of my head.

Post# 1023545 , Reply# 6   2/4/2019 at 05:14 (1,843 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Electrolux autodose 1990s

I remember about 1993/94-ish, that Electrolux brought out a range of machines, one of which span at 1500rpm, and one had automatic liquid dosing.

The dosing system consisted of a clear plastic bag which I presume the user filled with their favourite detergent, then a tube was attached. The bag lay behind the lower panel.

Post# 1023640 , Reply# 7   2/5/2019 at 08:58 (1,841 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
DualDry & Autodosing..

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Oh My - The Rolex of Washing machines just got taken to a whole new level !! Love it...the SLQ is one of the best machines I`ve ever used, simply quiet, efficient, gets on with the job..The Heat Pump dryer back then in 2010 was the quickest on the market !!

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Post# 1023972 , Reply# 8   2/8/2019 at 10:14 (1,838 days old) by iej (.... )        
The reason for 10amp vs 16 amps

I was just looking at a Miele WWV980 WPS specification for this market and it peaks at 2.4kW which at 230V is 10.43amps.

Plug here carry a 13amp fuse, so that's close enough to the maximum load before the plug fuse would blow.

The reason for the switchable 10 and 16amp options would likely be down to plug type in use in different countries. The majority of Europe uses CEE 7/4 'Schuko' which is rated 16amps. The UK and Ireland use BS1363 which is rated 13amps and there are a few other countries like Switzerland which have plugs rated at 10amps max.

You can connect any load you like within reason on 230V single phase, but you would have to hard wire it if it were beyond the safe limit of a plug and socket.

Post# 1023976 , Reply# 9   2/8/2019 at 10:56 (1,838 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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An advantage of the lower voltage is that nowadays a washing machine and a (heatpump) dryer can run on one circuit at the time, at least in countries where 16 Amps is the norm. I can run my Siemens washer and dryer at the same time while I only have one circuit for them.

Post# 1023997 , Reply# 10   2/8/2019 at 13:46 (1,838 days old) by iej (.... )        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.

Post# 1023998 , Reply# 11   2/8/2019 at 13:50 (1,838 days old) by iej (.... )        

In general the wattage of appliances is dropping as there's less demand for short, high temperature boil washes more than anything else due to advances in detergent and changes in how people wash laundry that have been going on since the 1970s.

The advent of heat pump dryers has also dramatically dropped the power consumption of laundry appliances.

A lot of older machines here would have pushed up to about 2.9kW. Also it's worth noting that the UK historically used 240V and the rest of Europe (including Ireland) used 220V. They've harmonised to 230V as part of an EU and also IEC (global) harmonisation that's been going on since the 1990s.

But, a resistance element will actually consume more energy and run hotter at higher voltage. So, if you drop the voltage from 240 to 220, your heat output actually drops accordingly. So there's a little bit of vacation depending on the actual voltage that you're receiving at your house. It should be close to 230V these days, but you'd get old supplies that could be rated for 220V +/- 5% or UK supplies that could be closer to 250V some of the time.

Typically as transformers were replaced at network level, they adjusted the systemwide voltages to hit closer to 230V.

You'd actually have no issue here running a washing machine and dryer simultaneously on a single circuit. The minimum radial branch circuit is typically 20 Amps and ring circuits deliver 32 Amps.

Our systems are a little bit different to those used on in continental Europe, Australia and in the US in the sense that the power is distributed on a high amperage circuit to the outlets, but the plugs themselves carry a fuse (maximum 13amps, and often 3amps or 10 amps in lighter appliances). So the last line of overcorrect protection here is actually in the plug top itself.

There's an image of my Miele TwinDos W1 and T1 Dryer (heat pump).

2 plugs with 13amp fuses, plugged into a dedicated radial circuit with an RCBO rated at 20amps.
The second photo is an illustration of how the fuses work.

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