Thread Number: 78398  /  Tag: Modern Dryers
Miele Heat Pump Dryers, 120V!
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Post# 1024218   2/10/2019 at 15:01 (1,845 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

I'm shocked Miele came out with apartment-friendly heat pump dryers. Matter of fact, only two models are available on their website, and both are 15A, 120V. The instructions even mention an adapter to use in case only a 240V socket is available.

If there was an extra 1.5k in my bank account, I'd buy it in a snap.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO washingpowder's LINK

Post# 1024267 , Reply# 1   2/11/2019 at 00:30 (1,845 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        

Yay! So when I OWN my unit and the washer ban's been lifted I'll have one of these guys sitting next to whatever the largest available 120v combo is available. :-)

In the co-op where I'm renting (and want to buy --as I've mentioned ad nauseum) all units have gas stoves. No units have the kitchen or bath on an exterior wall. Wiring is 120v only. So 120v ventless will be the only option.


Post# 1024273 , Reply# 2   2/11/2019 at 01:05 (1,844 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
But we already knew this.....

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There are one or maybe two threads here in the group (archives) regarding Miele's 120v heat pump dryers.

Having ceased importing 208v-240v washing machines to North America for domestic use (Little Giant and other model washer are from the professional division) in favor of 120v, now a matching dryer with similar power requirements means both can operate on same circuit. This totally removes one of the reasons many in past couldn't or wouldn't buy Miele laundry appliances; need for 220v power.

All this being said don't think the T1 dryers are selling in any great numbers. No one seems to be talking about them in terms of user reviews. In fact have seen at least two units that were basically new being offered on CL.

Am not going to stir those old pools, but am guessing there is some resistance to those two hour (or slightly more) drying times.

Post# 1024323 , Reply# 3   2/11/2019 at 17:53 (1,844 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Compact Heat Pump Dryers

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Would only need 120 volts, but if the washer has a heater in it you will still need more than one 120V 20 AMP circuit to run both at once.


A 120 V KM-WP compact dryer will still dry clothing faster, but will use over twice as much power, Jim if I were in that apartment a would install a compact WP gas dryer and just [ discreetly ] let it vent out a window while in use.


John L.

Post# 1024364 , Reply# 4   2/12/2019 at 07:53 (1,843 days old) by iej (.... )        

They only use a few hundred watts of power. I have a T1, albeit the 230V European version, and it's a very effective machine and extremely gentle on delicate fabrics compared to anything else I've ever used.

Whatever you do, DO NOT use dryer sheets in these machines. It has the potential to coat the very complex filter system and heat exchanger.

Post# 1026778 , Reply# 5   3/10/2019 at 19:41 (1,817 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

Well, Iḿ starting to get tired of my current setup. The Bosch started ripping clothes when a large load is being washed (The baffle-drum connection is suspected) and the GE Spacemaker dryer is just so low efficiency and small...

My only thing is - do I get the TwinDos model or not? Would love to have the ability to dose detergent automatically, but don't plan on using Miele's own concoctions. Actually have bottles of detergent and oxygen bleaching agent I could use instead - if the settings can't be adjusted and one has to imitate Miele's setup - but does anyone know how well would that work? Haven't seen empty containers available anywhere.

If anyone is using those machines please chime in.

Post# 1026790 , Reply# 6   3/10/2019 at 22:24 (1,817 days old) by Moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

Our family owns both the w1 and T1 in the USA. Top models on both washer and dryer. The dryer finishes full loads that were spun at 1600RPM In 50-70 minutes. Smaller loads are done quicker. I have never had a dryer cycle take two hours ever in the T1.

You can run both the washer and dryer on a single 20amp circuit at the same time.

We have over 1000 hours on the washer and 350 on the dryer. Dryer was bought after the washer. No real problems with either of them. The dryer DOES have additional lint filters and you MUST clean them diligently or dry times increase. There are two main filters that I would call “traditional” lint filters. There is also a washable fine particle filter directly in front of the condenser. This must be cleaned every 30-40 cycles. I clean it by using the round dusting brush attachment on our Miele vacuum. The manual says the filter can be washed as well, but I think that would shorten its life. The lint on this filter is very fine particle and I would only vacuum it with a sealed and heap filtered vacuum. If you don’t have one of those then washing would be preferred.

The dryer does sensor dry very well. It is possible to customize the final residual moisture content of the last two levels (Normal Plus and Extra Dry). Normal plus is what we usually use. It leaves just a little moisture so items don’t shrink, but is dry enough to fold and put away at the end of the cycle. Extra Dry we usually only use for an oversized towel load or a very thick item that takes longer for the middle layer to dry.

The normal cycles DOES NOT reverse tumble. Wrinkle Free DOES reverse tumble during the cycle. This has not been a problem with getting things dry.

The W1 twindos empty bottles DO NOT fit in the USA washer models. The shape of the twindos slot in the washer was modified so it will not accept the empty bottles. I bought them and found this out when trying to use them. They won’t fully insert into the slot. If you notice the UltraPhase cartridges now have indents on the top and bottom of the bottle on the end with the dispensing port. This allows the cartridge to be inserted into the USA models. The empty bottles Miele offers in Europe have square ends where the dispenser port is located. The square ends hit the bottem of the angled slot inside the machine and prevent them from being fully inserted.

Our solution has been to refill the UltraPhase cartridges with a funnel when they are empty. I bought a small funnel set at the hardware store that has angled spouts. The dispensing spout has a spring loaded plunger that can be pushed down with the funnel spout. Once the UltraPhase cartridge is empty I put water in the bottle using the funnel and then rinse and empty by holding the spring loaded plunger in with the funnel. I triple rinse the bottles to clean them before switching detergents. I then fill the UltraPhase bottle half full with water, reinsert into the washer and run the twindos maintenance for the slot the bottle is inserted. This flushes any remaining detergent in the injection pump so it doesn’t react with the new detergent.

Finally remove the bottle, drain the water and refill with your detergent of choice. We have been using Tide PurClean with no problems. Have refilled the factory cartridge 8 or 9 times now. The dose setting may need to be adjusted, but that is trial and error anyway.

We use Ecover non-chlorine bleach (7% hydrogen peroxide) in the UltraPhase 2 cartridge. If you don’t want to use any bleach, distilled water could be used. The TwinDos system in USA machines won’t work at all unless both cartridges are inserted and have liquid in them. Never use chlorine bleach in the TwinDos bottles. It will eat away at the components since the liquid sits in the chemical pumps and hoses in between washes. This is probably why Miele made it difficult to use anything other than their own offerings in the TwinDos system. Refilling with a funnel is actually pretty easy and I would say probably just as easy as trying to pour into the hole in the top of the official refillable bottles. The upside is if you damage a factory bottle or it wear out you get a full bottle of detergent in a replacement. The empties from Europe cost as much as a full bottle and you don’t get any detergent with them.

We love this system and it has really helped save detergent and prevent over or under dosing. Using your own detergent can save a LOT of money as well. Tide is significantly cheaper on a per ounce basis compared to the Miele detergent. It cleans just a good for our clothes.

We are happy with both machines. We are doing 35-50 loads of laundry per week. All washed and dried in the W1 and T1. Since swapping the Miele T9800 with the T1 our electric bill dropped $15-$20/month. We are also not venting heated air out the vent anymore and have noticed the furnace does not cycle quite as much either. For the amount of laundry we do, the T1 has had a noticeable decrease in our electric bill. Depending on how much laundry you do you may not notice a huge electric savings. We figure over the 10,000 hour life of the machine it should have $800-$1000 in electricity.

The T1 is a great dryer. It is uber expensive. We wanted the glass door. That is the only reason we bought the top end model. We don’t use the steam refresh, etc. 95% of the cycles are Normal on the “normal plus” dryness setting.

There is a 250 post thread on the w1/t1 combo over on Houzz Laundry Forum. Many of these questions you may have should be in there. There are also several threads here.

Good luck with your research.

Post# 1026840 , Reply# 7   3/11/2019 at 21:49 (1,816 days old) by Iej (.... )        

That's quite mean of Miele to lock the US market into using their consumables only. I think they'd probably have a big backlash in Europe as even though they're expensive machines, Miele is up against a lot of refillable autodose models from other companies and also the German and other consumer magazines would probably get very nasty about lock-in approaches.

I'm also surprised the T1 doesn't reverse on all cycles. Ours does. it does a short reverse regardless of which cycle you pick they all have it.i wonder why they didn't do that on the US model?

The Ultra phase detergent bottles changed design here too - but I think that's more just the packaging than anything else. They now have a foil rather than rubber cap and are a bit slicker looking as a design but the fit of the container is obviously completely unchanged as they're still compatible with existing washing machines.

The scent was changed completely. It reminds me of Unilever Persil Non Bio Liquid as sold in the UK and Ireland. I think it's a major improvement as I found the first version tended to leave a bit of a sharp and acidic scent which has now been replaced by a very mild uplifting kind of scent that isn't clawing.

There's a unscented version too.

Generally, I like the detergent. I'm getting very good results with it and finding it keeps colours very well, particularly black clothes. It's noticble that it really seems to preserve the colours even compared to mainstream colour detergents.

Post# 1026898 , Reply# 8   3/12/2019 at 17:10 (1,815 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Hard to credit

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Miele is so spiteful they purposely designed out any possibility of North American consumers importing empty or whatever bottles of Ultraphase products from Europe.

But then again we are talking about Miele, have had enough experience with that lo that wouldn't trust them an inch.

Other than on Hourzz, this site and maybe few others have heard very little about Miele T1 dryers in North America. Don't believe they are selling well as nearly no real world consumer reviews/information (other than previously mentioned) appears in various media.

Saw a T1 on CL locally (Long Island) several months ago. Sellers wanted nearly what the thing cost new, and IIRC it was just that; they just didn't like it and couldn't return so were attempting to move the thing on.

Post# 1026913 , Reply# 9   3/12/2019 at 21:04 (1,815 days old) by Iej (.... )        

It's really strange how different they seem to be in the US market.

They're obviously top of the line here and pretty expensive, but their customer care is second to none and they're extremely helpful to deal with. It's probably one of their main selling points for me.

I've had outstanding technical support, parts support and so on. If you need anything they'll usually just be extremely helpful. We had some issues with brackets and so on for an unusual kitchen installation and they just couriered whatever we needed.

Also the W1 here absolutely doesn't try to lock you in. You can use any liquids in combination, including softeners or liquids for wool or delicates. The whole dispensing system is completely programmable through the menus. The only think you have to remember is to run the maintenance cycle. You fill the refillable container (s) with water and select maintenance from the menu and it pumps the water through the dosing pump(s) and then emories. You're advised to do this if you switch products or, once in a while but using non Miele detergent (I guess anything not specifically designed for pump dosing).

Also the detergent drawer dispenser works exactly as normal, so you can add powders, stain removers, softener, starches or Miele pods which I consider a total waste of plastic.

I get the impression they have a much geekier and technocratic market here who expect all the programmability whereas in the US they seem to be just niche ultra luxury brand for people with more money than sense.

Miele in Europe is expensive but it's not insanely so. It's just the top of the market but still fairly mainstream. I mean kind of like the way maybe Speedqueen is in the US or maybe Maytag was once upon a time.

It's disappointing to hear they haven't taken that ethos across the Atlantic.

Post# 1026940 , Reply# 10   3/13/2019 at 06:59 (1,814 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
@ Iej

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I have a heat pump dryer and have found that dryer sheets are useless anyway as it doesn't get hot enough to activate the scent in the sheet so quit using them. I use Lenor gold only as its the only one that does not irritate skin maybe thats because we have used it for so long but I digress. The dryer sheets are used on dog towels in the old vented dryer own the shed there are no sensors in it as its timed only and around 18 years old now.

Post# 1026984 , Reply# 11   3/13/2019 at 18:39 (1,814 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Dryer sheets

Found the "dry" dryer sheet kind (paper packaging, grainy sometimes semi-transluscent texture, waxy feel) does barely work.

However, the wet type of dryer sheet stored in a damp-wipe-style plastic package do work descently well.

But, with basicly any HP dryer, softner smell does remain.
And except for a fine dust cought by the filter, our Bauknecht back home still dryers perfectly fine after several years of heavy use.

Reversing on a HP dryer technicly only wastes time on most loads.
No airflow, no drying. Even small decreases make a huge difference.

Some heatpumps would have to turn off during reversing.
And then some heatpumps can't immediatly restart, adding several minutes to the cycle and often self-defeating the reversing as that wait time takes away from the time until next reverse.
Our Bauknecht back home does blocks of reversing with the heatpump off, on the other hand ours here reverses with heatpump on, but only briefly every 10min.

Thus, even Miele has now added a specific bedding cycle for more reversing and - in typical Miele fashion - instead of blindly reversing, reversing periods get more and more common as drying progresses.

On the open refill TwinDos cartridges, Miele has been expanding its non-machine sector agressivly for years now.

Thus, they blocked out the selection for other detergents.
But me being somewhat doubtfull of the system I would assume the electronics do have the same setup ay previous and changing the country setting would unlock that feature.

But, not sure on that though, I think you could get at least one cartridge to work with a refillable one.
The machine offers the option to adjust the dosage depending on water hardness in ml.
What I don't know if those are set values OR if it is the same setting system with up to 300ml selectable.
If they are freely selectable, you could just exchange the main detergent cartridge with refillable one and the whites one with water or your own liquid oxy additive. (AFAIK both are dispensed ALWAYS, just the ratios are changed for colors).

Post# 1026988 , Reply# 12   3/13/2019 at 19:21 (1,814 days old) by moon1234 (Wisconsin)        


It is physically not possible to insert the refillable cartridge in the USA models. They will not fully insert. If you notice the newly designed TwinDos cartridges have indented plastic on the end that is inserted into the washer. This is to allow the cartridge to fully seat in USA machines. The refillable cartridges are a flat rectangle on the end that is inserted into the washer. The bottom of the bottle hits the bottom of the compartment before the cartridge is fully inserted, this preventing the refillable cartridge from being fully inserted on USA models.

In the settings the option Agent option for Slot 1 or 2 is Miele Detergent. When swapping an empty twindos bottle for a full one, the display will prompt "Different Agent?" when inserting a full bottle. If you select "Yes" the only option listed is Miele.

Like I said, the work around is refilling the factory bottles with a funnel from the hardware store. It works fine.

The only real downside is that fabric softener can not be dispensed properly. Phase 2 on USA machines will always be dispensed as part of the main wash where fabric softener would be dispensed in the final rinse. This is because phase 2 is always assumed to be Miele's Oxygen Bleach.

I am pretty certain that was done strictly due to their worry that people would be filling the Phase 2 bottle with Chlorine Bleach.

Post# 1026989 , Reply# 13   3/13/2019 at 19:24 (1,814 days old) by moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

As for reviews on the W1/T1 in the USA here are some from sites that people here would use to evaluate what to buy:

Those are just a few. All put Miele at the top with the only real knock being the high price.

Post# 1026991 , Reply# 14   3/13/2019 at 19:40 (1,814 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I would be highly surprised if they would make 2 entirely different designs of cartridge holder for that...
And no, if it was about chlorine bleach they would just pack a warning on there. We do have chlorine bleach as well over here, you know.
And forcing people towards their products is clearly resembled in the G7000 line said to belaunched in US sooner rather then oater.

And if the end is flat or not does not matter or should not matter.
There is a flat piece there, yes, but if only that contacts or all of the surface should not matter.

Were the old designs the same as the EU?

I mean, the new US design is only 100ml smaller, which would account for the cutout on top and the angles in the middle.
So size should be the same, and so should be connector.

Miele got burned once with exclusive designs for the US market, they will never put in a dime more then needed in the US...

Post# 1027021 , Reply# 15   3/14/2019 at 09:01 (1,813 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

Thank you all for a brilliant insight, especially Moon!

I only wish F&P would bring their 900W Heat Pump dryer to the US, and make it a 120V model. I'd go with them immediately.

All of the Miele features are exciting and a huge upgrade from my current machines, but the pettiness level they reached with a different TwinDos design... If people were to use those empty bottles and actually poured in chlorine bleach or similar inappropriate agents, it would void their warranty for sure - so no problems for Miele. Can't comprehend why would they go to such extent. Spoke with their rep on the phone and all he managed to say was that US models will not have refillable container and he didn't know why, then hung up.

Henene, I looked into one of the machines on display and they really did put in bumps to correspond with the American TwinDos bottle indentations. I'm thinking I could refill per above instructions, but it seems like an unnecessary override for marginal benefit; then the bottles are quite flimsy and will probably need replacement sooner than later. Miele doesn't disclose ingredients nor is willing to reveal their (or their suppliers') approach to animal testing, so not gonna work for me.

For the amount of money they ask, I'm starting to reconsider. Wondering if the T1 could be stacked somehow on a F&P washer..

Post# 1027027 , Reply# 16   3/14/2019 at 10:25 (1,813 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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So why bother about the Twin Dos system and just buy the model without it. It will save you money too.

Post# 1027033 , Reply# 17   3/14/2019 at 11:17 (1,813 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

QuickIntense (or PowerWash) is a feature you really want to have.

Sadly, they don't have model with that without TwinDos...

Post# 1027036 , Reply# 18   3/14/2019 at 11:34 (1,813 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)        

There's the QuickIntense, which is an equivalent of the Vortex technology of F&P which reduces most cycle times. The main thing that attracted me to this set was a HP dryer, a nice upgrade from a vented GE Spacemaker. Ability to stack and reclaim some kitchen space was a bonus.

Looking more into the washers, TwinDos was an important part of my decision, but if using it with own detergents is made so inconvenient by the manufacturer just to, I suppose, lock people into buying Miele's products, then I'm re-thinking the whole concept. Other than those two features there's very little that attracts me to the machine vs a significantly cheaper F&P.

I'll be speaking with F&P if it's possible to install a different dryer on their washer; am pretty sure they'll be able to offer some solution, as their representatives literally go above and beyond from my interactions.
Side note, needed some info on their technology for a college research paper and was transferred from a person to a person, each more than helpful to provide me with plenty of info and e-mails, if I need to know anything else.

Won't even bother asking Miele of the same thing as their customer service is about as helpful as a glass hammer.

Post# 1027039 , Reply# 19   3/14/2019 at 12:38 (1,813 days old) by italmex (milano)        

Did you know that Miele in Mexico sells both washer and dryer at 220V.
The W1 and T1 are delivered without a plug and the manual let you suppose that they are also sold in England as they talk about the warranty offered by Miele UK.
The best part ... the price.
The washer has a price of 3,465 USD (66,900 MX Pesos)
The dryer costs 3,620 USD (69,900 MX Pesos)
Apparently sales are going well and what most convinces people is the capacity of 9kg. of clothes since the w3033 offered 6kg. with very few sales.
The price? Who is going to buy Miele already knows in advance that it is expensive. Energy saving? In Mexico this concept is not very common in the population.
2 or 3 hours of washing and drying? Nor do they worry so much because who buys this type of equipment, they have a maid at home and she will use them. The bad part, nobody reads the instructions manual.

Post# 1027045 , Reply# 20   3/14/2019 at 13:08 (1,813 days old) by iej (.... )        

Cotton (Short option) does a very effective wash in 59 mins.
I tend to use that for lightly soiled stuff - which is most of my clothes.
If I'm doing towels they go on at 75°C and it takes about 2:14 to do.

Post# 1027058 , Reply# 21   3/14/2019 at 13:43 (1,813 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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With a universal stacking kit you can stack a washer and a dryer from a different brand. Here's one on Amazon.

Post# 1027060 , Reply# 22   3/14/2019 at 14:09 (1,813 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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And then there is this:

Amazon UK, but global delivery available.

Post# 1027063 , Reply# 23   3/14/2019 at 15:09 (1,813 days old) by moon1234 (Wisconsin)        


The refillable bottles are not much sturdier than the UltraPhase 1/2 bottles. The only real difference is the hole on the top of the cartridge with a cap on the refillable cartridge. As I said before using a funnel is not really any harder than using the refillable bottle with the hole on the top.

The ingredients for UltraPhase 1 and UltraPhase 2 are posted online. Here are the links:

Phase 1:

Phase 2:

Our family goes through a LOT of detergent due to the amount of laundry. Tide PurClean can be bought in 75oz bottles for about $7.50/bottle when Target or another store has it or cleaning products in the store app with cash back and then combine with manufacturer coupons. That makes it .10/oz. The Miele Ultraphase 1 cartridge costs $19/50oz bottle. This makes it .38/oz. Almost 4x more expensive.

We dose Phase 1 at 17ml. If all loads had 17ml that means Tide would cost 5.75 CENTS per load vs Miele at 21.84 CENTS per load.

Cost per week (50 loads per week)
Miele: $10.92
Tide: $2.88

Cost per year (50 loads per week)
Miele: $567.84
Tide: $149.76

Savings per year with Tide vs Miele: $418.08
Savings over five years Tide vs Miele: $2090.40

This is only for the detergent portion of the TwinDos system. If you add in Phase 2 as well the savings is larger.

As you can see using Tide vs Miele will save the entire cost of the washer over a five year span. I picked five years because we will most likely reach 10,000 hours within the next five years. 10,000 hours is the design life of the W1. So just switching to Tide and using coupons can save you the entire cost of the machine over it's life. It's not an insignificant choice.

Lets look at time savings of TwinDos vs pouring detergent in the slot. Lets assume an average cycle length is 1.5 hours. This means 6,666 cycles in the design life of the machine. If it takes you one minute to retrieve the detergent bottle, measure the correct amount and pour it in the traditional drawer in the washer you will spend 111 Hours dispensing detergent.

If you figure $15 an hour you have a time cost of money of $1665. Meaning if you had to pay someone a decent wage as a maid the cost to dispense detergent over the life of the machine; that is what it would cost. Now we have to deduct off the time to swap a Miele TwinDos bottle. We will call this one minute. Since each bottle, at 17ml per load, will last you 88 loads this means you will use about 75 TwinDos bottles over the design life of the machine. The time cost of money to swap TwinDos bottles is $18.75. There is zero time spent filling the detergent drawer since TwinDos does this for you. That means the TwinDos system would save you about $1645 over it's design life. This assumes you value your time in this manner.

If you have to spend time refilling the factory bottles with your own detergent then you have to put five minutes into each bottle swap. That is how long it takes me to take out the bottle, refill it and reinsert. That means 6.25 hours spent refilling over the life of the machine for a time cost of money of $93.75. Even with manually refilling, the TwinDos system still saves you about $1570 over the next five years. Look at it another way: you have 104 more hours to go do something else other than pour detergent in a drawer. That is like having an extra 2.5 weeks of paid vacation over the next five years or 3.5 extra days of paid vacation per year.

Even if it saved you only half that amount, the TwinDos system still more than pays for itself in saved time. You also no longer have detergent spills or bottles sitting out in the laundry room. It stays cleaner.

Post# 1027067 , Reply# 24   3/14/2019 at 15:37 (1,813 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
It would

But it dosen't.

While technicaly your time is money, it isn't. You don't get paid for it.
That is why while calculating that in is technicaly correct, it dosen't really matter.

Further, assuming you a) dose Miele detergents according to specs and b) you use fabric softner that you still have to dose manually and c) you don't always use the same detergent, paying quadrouple in detergent dosen't really matter.
And compared to all other tasks involved in laundry, dosing is minimal to non-considerable timewise.

Add potential service trouble (why is there other detergent in the pipes?) and the point gets questionable.

See it that way:
A bottle Mieles detergent is twice the Tide you mentioned, about an hours wage you assumed vs half that.
So, for a full cartridge round you would have to work 2h, for the Tide 30min.
So you would have to save 90min to get equal.
Which would mean 90 loads.

That is not considering cheaper detergent options that will for most parts work as well if you know what to buy OR sales (Miele dosen't do sales).

Post# 1027069 , Reply# 25   3/14/2019 at 16:06 (1,813 days old) by moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

Think about all the people that use too much detergent. How many times do we read about people with smelly front loaders? They do cold water washes with too much detergent and then a few months later they wind up with a smelly, moldy washer?

Hot washes and proper dispensing will fix those problems. A Dosing system that prevents over dosing will also help. From a manufacturers standpoint it should improve customer happiness with the appliance (not necessarily reliability).

As for time value of money, at least in my family, we CAN make money with that extra time. My wife runs our vegetable farm in addition to running the house. If she can rely on a 10 year old to sort light and dark and just push color or white under TwinDos, then she doesn't neeed to be inside babysitting the wash all day.

She can be outside making sure the hired help or the older kids are doing their jobs, etc. So for her it removes the worry that she will come back inside in an hour or two and the machine is belching out foam on the floor.

I agree not everyone will be able to do this so they may think this calculation is academic and not practical. However, most of us can go do something else with that time. Start making a meal, fold laundry, etc. It is a small amount of time, but it does add up.

Now if a person can not afford the appliance in the first place, then it doesn't matter how much time it may save.

Post# 1027072 , Reply# 26   3/14/2019 at 17:07 (1,813 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

I have the W1 and I would be surprised if anyone in the USA could dose Twin Dos according to the specs in the manual. The dosing in the manual calls for much too much detergent probably because the manual is thinking in terms of German water which is certainly harder, at least than mine.

I don't do anywhere near as much laundry as Moon does so refilling the bottles is not concerning to me plus you can still use your own detergent when you want to. I am still working on my purchase of Persil Megaperls from early last year so I am alternating laundry days with it and the Miele twin dos.

In terms of wash programs, the machine offers a program for just about any fabric you can think of. I have been using the baby clothes cycle on my cotton underwear because it defaults to 3 rinses and you can add an extra rinse giving you 4. The Normal program offers temperatures up to 140F but I did test the exit water on the 120F wash and it was at 110F so I am sure it lowers the temp somewhat due to Energy Star. The only thing I don't like about the Normal cycle is that you cannot adjust the spin speed. It is set at 1600rpms and you cannot lower it. From an energy saving standpoint for drying, I understand that but I would rather use a lower spin speed on some cycles since I have a gas dryer. You can adjust the spin speeds for all of the other cycles on the machine so It is not really necessary for me to use the Normal cycle

You also can use the max rinse level setting which raises the rinse water level to 1/3 above bottom of the door in every rinse so that is good for those that want to make sure clothes are well rinsed.

So far I am very pleased with the washer and it does offer much more flexibility than the 3XXX or 4XXX series. It is also larger than the 3XXX but I don't know if it is as large as the 4XXX was. I can wash my poly queen comforter in it with no problem and I don't think I will ever have a bed larger than that.

Post# 1027100 , Reply# 27   3/14/2019 at 23:13 (1,813 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
To be fair American consumers do like litigation and laws being what they are often a company (am looking at you Maytag) can't win for trying. Especially if things go to class action status.

With that in mind maybe Miele has decided to nip certain things in the but by taking away certain options. MieleUSA thus corporate parent in Germany is well aware of hobbyist groups such as ourselves. They also know information is exchanged, and while they can control official distribution channels, that always isn't case otherwise.

Post# 1027107 , Reply# 28   3/15/2019 at 04:05 (1,812 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
For what it's worth: German water hardness.

Soft - up to 8.8 GPG
Medium - up to 14.6 GPG
Hard - over 14.6 GPG

Post# 1027119 , Reply# 29   3/15/2019 at 08:56 (1,812 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
110F Exit temp

Mieles new machines use something called "guided energy use" which optimizes EVERY cycle towards efficiency without affecting results.

Gist of it is that if the machine nears the end of the main wash and reheating would basically take almost to the end of the mainwash it doesn't reheat.

So let's say there are 10min left in the mainwash and water temperature dropped to 115F on a 120F cycle.
If it were to start heating again, it would hit 120F with 5min left. So all the freshly heated water would be dumped almost immediately.
Thus it just skips the heating.

Post# 1027144 , Reply# 30   3/15/2019 at 17:03 (1,812 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Thanks for the German water hardness levels since I don't know what to look for online.

I thought about the possibility of the heater not activating near the end of the wash and I am Ok with that. The thing is that when I first got the machine I measured the exit water for each program I ran, and it was on the Normal program that the difference was 10 degrees or more. On normal 105F, wash water came out at 82F! On other programs, the difference is small or equal to the setting of the wash temp. I understand why since it is the program used to get the energy measurements, and the manual even states so. Normal also won't use as much water as the rest if you select a max rinse setting. I get it. I don't mind doing a 120F and having the water exit at 110F it is that 1600rpm spin that really keeps me from using the Normal program on some things.

One common habit people seem to have( does not apply to people who are on this forum) is that they do not read any user manual, so simply stating not to use chlorine bleach in the manual is not enough to stop them from trying it. The washer does allow the use of chlorine bleach in a wash, but that use must be activated in the settings to work. I don't use chlorine bleach so the setting is off. I am glad I can still use whatever detergent I want to by putting it in the dispenser, but so far the Twin Dos detergent is performing very well. It is not foamy and there is not much of any scent that I can detect. I have suffered from detergent allergies so I am very glad that I can use a machine that will give me enough water for what I think is adequate rinsing.

Post# 1027153 , Reply# 31   3/15/2019 at 20:55 (1,812 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Far as one can tell neither of my AEG Lavamat washers will heat water after a set period. OTOH the much older Miele will engage thermostat anytime during wash cycle if it senses a drop in water temperature. Know this because there is a very audible "clunk" whenever thermostat engages and or turns off heaters.

Have to say always found it rather silly and wasteful to heat water with say < 10 or so minutes left in cycle.

Post# 1027292 , Reply# 32   3/17/2019 at 12:04 (1,810 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

I washed kitchen towels this morning and decided to use the Normal cycle. This is the Cottons cycle that was renamed to Normal. I set the max rinse level on and used 3 rinses. The spins between the rinses were good. The estimated time was 1:30 which reduced to 1:05 after a few minutes. Good water in the wash. The first two rinses used the max rinse level setting, but the last rinse used the regular rinse level. I don't know if that happens if you don't select extra rinse.

I selected 140F for the wash temp, then ran the water at the laundry sink to measure the temperature. It was 120F. The wash portion lasted 21 minutes. I captured the wash water in a bucket and measured the temperature which was 102F. It doesn't look like too much water heating takes place on the Normal cycle, because after all, it is the Eco cycle.

Post# 1027298 , Reply# 33   3/17/2019 at 12:42 (1,810 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
So glad my old Miele W4449

ozzie908's profile picture
Does not have the technology to dumb down water temperature I have zapped it many times with the laser temp probe and on a normal cottons 60c it heats to about 56c or should I say it peaks at 56c but if I use the Hygiene cycle it heats to exactly 60c and maintains that temperature for minimum of 12 minutes thus making it a lovely cycle to use for white bedding and towels as it activates the bleach in the powder and as its a longer wash portion of the cycle it gives fantastic results, On a side note I had to pull it out today to see if we had a leak on the pipes I had forgotten how bloody heavy it was..... My poor hernia.


Post# 1027329 , Reply# 34   3/17/2019 at 16:06 (1,810 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

This type of temp reduction only happens on the Normal cycle. The USA Energy conservation program requires that the cycle used for energy rating has to be named "NORMAL". In my opinion, this was done to trick consumers into using this cycle since it is named for normal clothes. All of the other cycles on the machine heat very well.

Post# 1027335 , Reply# 35   3/17/2019 at 16:45 (1,810 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
German water hardness

launderess's profile picture
Learned ages ago when first began using Persil that dosage direction on packets were rubbish. We have very soft water in NYS, and using recommended amounts would cause no end of troubles.

Indeed for nearly all European or any detergent from overseas find can use vastly less. That Saudi Arabian Persil Stan and I did a swap with calls for nearly one cup or more per wash load. Neither the Miele or either AEG would have any of it.

Post# 1027385 , Reply# 36   3/18/2019 at 07:47 (1,809 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
We do have extremely soft water areas in Germany, but they`re not as prevalent as hard water areas.
What Americans define as moderately hard is still considered soft in Europe, but that doesn`t mean we don`t have very soft water too. It only means the span of the definition soft is bigger here.

The biggest difference is that dosing instructions in Europe are based on 4,5 kg dry weight.
In the US dosing instructions are typically based on a "medium load" which is only 4 lb of dry weight. 4 lb are roughly 1,8 kg or in other words a vintage Miele not even loaded half full of clothes.

But to stay on topic what makes it so hard to use a second motor in an electric dryer ?
I take it that European dryers are very limited in drum diameter because of standardized cabinet size. So you`d think proper reversing should be essential for drying large items evenly and wrinkle free.
I wonder if it is because there is not enough room in the cabinet for an additional motor ? It`s not about costs only, is it ?

Post# 1027388 , Reply# 37   3/18/2019 at 08:25 (1,809 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Cost & Efficency

There certainly is enough room.
AEGs first heatpump dryers did use 2 motors with the fan motor intrgrated in the fan at the back.
Miele used to use 2 seperate motors (TwinPower).
These motors are relativley compact and can be mounted right next to each other right behind the compressor on the bottom right.

Main reason was cost.
Heatpump dryers used to be twice the price of other dryers.
BSH were the first to cut cost to only about 50% with their first BlueTherm dryers.

Next thing was efficency.
One motor is somewhat more efficent then 2 seperate motors.
IIRC ELux had a 150W fan motor and a 110W drum motor with a 550W compressor.
Our current A+++ dryer has an approximate combined power draw of about 560W with the heatpump at 420W (compressor is an LG EA-078 PAA), so 140W for the motor.
While that is only 200W difference round about and only 120W of that on the motors, that is over one 2,5h cycle almost half a kWh of which 300 or so Wh is down to the motors.
That is maybe one efficency class for just the motor savings.

Post# 1027391 , Reply# 38   3/18/2019 at 09:04 (1,809 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Thanks, never thought about efficiency, but it makes perfect sense.

Post# 1028754 , Reply# 39   4/2/2019 at 13:14 (1,794 days old) by JohnBee (USA, NY)        

johnbee's profile picture
I live in NYC, it a 1100sqf apartment. My landlord approved Washer/Dryer installation.
First I tried a small Whirlpool TL with a Whirlpool compact dryer.
1.5 cu ft means I had to run more than 7-8 loads per week. we are a family of 2.
The other issue, dryer vent. I had to take the vent outside the window each time I would like to run a load.
A friend of mine was selling a brand new Kenmore portable front load washer. 2.1 cu ft but of course the dryer couldn't handle it.
Then I saw an advertisement from Miele that their heatpump dryer could run under 120V! AWESOME.
$1600 less on my account and 48 hours later the dryer was standing on the top of my new washer in the bathroom :)
A huge load of towels will dry in less than an hour. No need to take the vent outside the window, no more lint flying around the bathroom and no more need to split the load.

My Mother, Sister, Grandmother all of them they own Miele sets back in europe.

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