Thread Number: 80529
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Differences Between Speed Queen TL Series 9 and TC5000
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|Post# 1044981   9/15/2019 at 13:06 (1,629 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)
Having seen posts from AW members PinkPower4 and Ladd, along with input from many others in various threads/posts, I'd like to gather information related to the TC5000 and how it differs from the 2017 Series 9 in this thread. Sort of a 'before and after the TR series disaster' look at the brand's toploader.
Interesting changes were made during Speed Queen's "lost year."
NORMAL ECO CYCLE:
In the video below, Eugene (lorainfurniture) runs a complete Normal Eco cycle on the TC5000 with the Heavy Soil option (there is no 'Heavy Duty' option as the title of the video suggests; we all know what he means). The cycle does, indeed, run for 59+ minutes, and most of it is agitation. A heads-up about the new super-extended cycle was gleaned from a TC5000 cycle chart someone posted recently. A video commenter states they clocked about 25 minutes of wash agitation. That is some serious wash time and will undoubtedly boost cleaning scores in the next CR test.
CR tests washers on the Normal cycle with the heaviest soil level option. They also test using an 8-lb. load, which shouldn't ding the score for 'gentleness to fabrics' too much. However...if you stuff the TC5000's tub with a maximum-capacity load and let 'er rip on the Normal cycle coupled with the heavy soil option you may find yourself pulling a lot of shirt buttons from the bottom of the tub at the end of the cycle. And here’s why:
In default mode, the TC5000 fills to—what is on my Series 9–the 'medium' water level. After about 10 minutes of agitation, the machine stops and fills to the 'large' water level. After a 5 minute soak, agitation continues until the spin/spray rinse protocol begins.
By contrast, the Series 9 fills to the selected water level (small; medium; large; ex large). I’m going to assume this potential problem is avoided by selecting the Deep Fill option when washing a big load on the Normal Cycle.
Differences so far in the cycle:
The Series 9 fills to the selected water level; score 1 for it. The TC5000, however, fills with the actual water temp selected. The Series 9: If warm or hot water is selected, it fills with a few inches of warm water, then switches to cold for the remainder of the fill. Score 1 for the TC.
The Series 9 agitates for 6-14 (or so) minutes depending on the soil level selection. The Magic Minute-like initial agitation with a more concentrated detergent solution on the TC5000 is great---although I wouldn't want a maximum-capacity load of clothes subjected to high speed agitation for that long before more water is added.
Spray Rinse Protocol: The TC5000's (like the Series 9's), first spray rinse occurs when almost all the wash water has been spun from the tub. Here's where things differ: The TC5000 continues to spin and occasionally spray rinse without stopping until the final (high speed) spin begins.
The Series 9: The spin stops momentarily at the same time it would if it was going to fill for a deep rinse. Then it kicks back into another slow spin. A spray rinse occurs immediately--which I like because the tub is still moving slowly; gives the water more of a chance to penetrate the load. Toward the end of this '2nd spin' there's another spray rinse. Spinning stops momentarily before proceeding to the final (high speed) spin. This last bit is the same as the TC 5000.
This post was last edited 09/15/2019 at 14:18
|Post# 1044993 , Reply# 1   9/15/2019 at 14:21 (1,629 days old) by dylanmitchell (Southern California)
The TC5/ TC500/ Classic/ AWN632SP116TW01 has knobs with electronic controls (not the old mechanical controls), 6 preset cycles, 4 temp selections, and a deep fill (not sure how it works vs full fill on 9 series) and 3-year warranty possibly 10-year warranty before Sept 30?
9 series has electronic controls, 9 preset cycles, 4 temp selections, full tub wash and rinse, and 2nd and 3rd rinse and if you select both you get 4 rinses (which is a ton of water use) and 5-year warranty. 8 series and mechanical models have few less options. I'd be happy with any of them but the 9 series has the most flexible set of options, the 5-year warranty, and was worth the extra $100 or so premium.
TC500WN is closer to 8 series but has knobs connecting to electronics controls and sells for a lot more at $1,029. 9 series and 8 series have push-button electronic controls and the 2017 models with knobs had mechanical controls. TC500WN doesn't have the water level selection options 2017 models had but does have a deep fill button.
The 9 series is the best one (and the one I own). The 8 series is also better than the TC500WN and has a few more features. 2017 mechanical models with mechanical timers and water level controls are also better than the TC500WN. But the TC500WN is the best washer you can buy new. I'd probably pick a new in box TC500WN with warranty over a used 2017 model.
This post was last edited 09/15/2019 at 17:26
|Post# 1045039 , Reply# 2   9/15/2019 at 23:08 (1,628 days old) by mimon (Saginaw, MI)
"The 8 series is also better than the TC500WN"
Really? Why? More than the water level selector?
Mind you, I have one and wouldn’t part with it for anything anyone is likely to give me for it, but I can’t definitively or qualitatively say why I feel its superior to SpeedQueen’s recent return to glory.
Back in the summer of 2017, the bearings crapped out in my 10 year old LG FL. I realize now that after 10 years I got the value I paid for, but I wasn’t quite receptive to that at the time the service tech told me what it would cost to repair. I vowed then I would find a machine... a machine like I remember growing up with, one that lasted so long that I feared never living down the shame if anyone ever saw me putting acid washed jeans into a teal 1968 KitchenAid washer. I wanted a machine that wouldn’t fail after only a decade over something so meager as “bearings”
The tech suggested Speed Queen. Given the substantial price, (single father) I figured I could wait for tax return time and pick one up in spring 2018. Thus began six odd months of sitting in random laundromats studying Speed Queen TL’s and others brands.
Thank God for this site... I had no idea what Speed Queen had in mind for 2018. When doing due diligence for my planned purchase, I came across the reports on the TR’s in this forum, Eugene’s videos (seriously, gratitude and respect for your sacrifice to integrity dude…) and the videos showing SQ removing negative reviews. Upon seeing and reading all this, I RAN to my local ma and pop appliance dealer (Plug: Cranes in Saginaw, MI). Given that it was early March 2018, I was ready to be told that I was out of luck. Yet against all odds, they still had one last AWN432 for sale. I happily snapped it up for just a little over $900 delivered.
Now, more than when I purchased it, I realize I have a “Grail” machine, one with qualities than can no longer be obtained. In mine, there is not one single ridiculously expensive circuit board. The durable controls are fully mechanical and easy to replace, no surge protector or prophylactic unplugging needed. There is no gimped agi-tub design, so I don’t have to pretend that I suddenly care more about how delicate my clothes are rather than whether my washing machine actually gets dirty clothes clean. (Be honest with yourselves, you know who you are…) A YouTube informed screw turn enabled me to fill the tub fully with, I believe, water as hot as I set my water heater. No lid lock, and a simple clothes pin returns me to the wild west days of being able to actually watch my washer...wash. Imagine the freedom of past days of glory that I enjoy.
My serial number resolves to a machine assembled in December 2017. I romantically envision that it was among the last machines, if not the very last, designed by “The Old” Speed Queen and lovingly assembled by workers that knew that it was the last they would assemble before the 2018...um, lets say, “models” were going to be adopted. (seriously, imagine knowing that your kids’ medical insurance was dependant on the people that designed the 2018 machines…)
So clearly, I’m receptive to the 2017 mechanical washer being superior to the newer 2019 models, but I lack any substantive and reproducible data.
|Post# 1045040 , Reply# 3   9/15/2019 at 23:11 (1,628 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)
Update: Hopped over to CR online to see if they’d tested the TC5000 yet–checked a week or so ago and they hadn’t—and there it was!
Not surprisingly, the wash performance score increased to Very Good, only one of three agitator models receive that designation. Gentleness score was dinged by the greatly lengthened wash agitation. It received an overall score of 61.
What DID surprise me is that the three TR models zipped up the ranks. Washing performance rose from Poor to Fair. Looks like something must have been tweaked—cycle time, maybe? Increase in the number of quick-strokes during agitation?
The TR’s overall score ended up one point higher than the TC, which is mind-blowing. CR used to claim that wash performance was the most heavily-weighted score. The TC did much better in that area. However, the TC scored lower than the TR in Energy Efficiency, Gentleness and Noise.
I’ve never made a decision on an appliance purchase over 1 measly point at CR, but it will be interesting to see the reviews section if people buy the TR rather than the TC, despite its clobbering the transmissionless machine in wash performance.
|Post# 1045060 , Reply# 4   9/16/2019 at 06:33 (1,628 days old) by PinkPower4 (USA)
Excellent post. I don't think I could have worded it any better. I also feel the AWN432 model is superior to the 2019 electronic ones, which have two control boards and less features. You will not convince me THIS is better than a mechanical timer or ATC sensors (SQ does not have these) that are there for no other real purpose other than to say energy regardless of the costs to our landfills, waterways, and pocket books.
I am also a single parent who struggles just to make ends meet. However, I believe in paying extra for quality (I also use my tax refunds. SQ forgets people like us having purchasing power too.) And I buy a washer because I want clean clothes! My personal opinion is the TC5 is the better overall choice of the ones available for sale today if price is not a factor. The deal breaker for me was the TC5 was priced higher and included more unnecessary electronics with less features than the "classic" model (AWN432) it replaced.
Speed Queen continues to focus on their TR series, which may work for people who need to wash office wear only. I have some difficulty seeing, but I am not blind. I think it is just wrong not to mention that the TR series works well for office professional wear but not as well as other models for other types of loads. I always try to remember to mention the Normal "Eco" quirk with the MT575 because I know that is a deal breaker but so is a washer that can't wash outdoor, sports, gym, pet items, kids clothing, etc. too. Speed Queen is missing out on a huge potential market by excluding people like me that wash other types of laundry with marketing decisions and pricing structures/dealer tactics like this.
I pondered each response over the last few days while I kept looking. In the most unlikely of places I found where I still may be able to get the TC5 for a reasonable price delivered, but I am going to pass. In the end,it is not what I really wanted, which was the mechanical AWN432. Thanks to those who took the time to share why I may want to consider it. Thanks to those who kept me grounded to remind me that these tests on the Maytag mvwp575gw were extreme. The bottom line is I have something that is working well for me with cleaning performance that is second to none. I realized even with both sitting side by side in my laundry room, I would still use the MT575 for the reasons I love it now. I'm with Eddie on this one. He reminded me that we have to purchase the best washer that fits our needs, budget, and personal considerations. Yes, I am taking an educated guess for me that means three MTs versus two SQs. I doubt we will be out much if any more money. The electronics, bearings, and seals will likely be issues that will cause people to replace even those around 15-years. Who knows what will be available in the future, but I can decide then (but at least I have over three years of warranty left). I realized I have turned into a washer junkie too and learned how to use them much better now.
One thing I know is Speed Queen is going to sink or swim with these new regulations. If their only plan is to go forward with the TR series with a poor rating, then I think the 10-yr. warranties won't be of much use. OR they will find a way to turn the lemon government regulations into lemonade. Bring back the AWN432 true "Classic". Build it, and they will come. Unlike other companies, aren't washers all Speed Queen does? So they have to do it right. That is what sets them aparts in a Walmart-type world.
|Post# 1045068 , Reply# 5   9/16/2019 at 08:52 (1,628 days old) by PinkPower4 (USA)
I realize some prefer electronics. I just think the should add value the extra cost. The TR3 and 5 and TC5 don't even have a time remaining indicator. Being techy (and having some difficulty hearing), the option to connect the washer to my phone is appealing. I can be notified of the status even if I am not able to hear it. Plus, I may be able to program my favorite cycle.
Wish they could bring back the true classic (the one I would still get) and improve the electronic models too including wash action (TR series) :-). They already have the reputation for durability.
|Post# 1045092 , Reply# 6   9/16/2019 at 12:05 (1,628 days old) by dylanmitchell (Southern California)
All of these the TC5, 8 series, 9 series, and AWN432 are great washers. I like the features of the 9 series, and some prefer the mechanical controls of the AWN432. TC5 costs more than it should but I'd still buy it over the Maytag MVWP575GW. Also, like the Speed Queen FL FR7002WN, but it's $1,889.00 and at 3.5 cu ft. small for an FL.
8 series main advantages over the TC5 is water level selector (which may no longer be permitted due to new DOE regs) that it sold for $899, count down timer, and push-button electronic controls (which may be a minus to some).
Very similar specs too.
8 series vs TC5
Width - 25 5/8 in same
Depth - 28 in same
Height - in 43 in vs 42-3/4 in basically the same
Capacity – 3.3 cu ft vs 3.2 cu ft basically the same
Approx. Shipping Weight - lb 195 (not listed for TC5)
Cost $899 vs $1029 for TC5
|Post# 1045125 , Reply# 7   9/16/2019 at 20:35 (1,628 days old) by thomasward00 (KENTWOOD)
The TC series will be gone within a few years, the TR will be tweaked over the coming years. The TC was made to quiet the internet crybabies.
|Post# 1045128 , Reply# 8   9/16/2019 at 21:27 (1,628 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)
|Post# 1045131 , Reply# 9   9/16/2019 at 22:37 (1,627 days old) by thomasward00 (KENTWOOD)
When my old kenmore died, my friend actually recommended SQ, I know 2 other people that have TR series washers, no one has complained about cleaning issues, I don't know what people are trying to wash...
|Post# 1045134 , Reply# 10   9/16/2019 at 23:11 (1,627 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)
There are any number of knowledgeable people washing real-world loads of medium-to-heavy soil on the TR’s Heavy Duty cycle in warm water with high-performing detergents. When they pull items out of the machine at the end of the cycle, many are still soiled/stained.
Both professional testing organizations and reputable people using the washer in consumer applications
find the same thing: The machine demonstrates poor washing performance in all but the lightest-soil conditions. It struggles to clean fabrics that are relatively stiff (jeans, for instance) and large articles.
I purchased a Series 9 pair for myself and one for my sister in the summer of 2017. Last year, the neighbor who lives in the condo above hers purchased a Speed Queen set on my sister’s recommendation. The woman was very disappointed, complaining that it did not clean well. The washer is a TR7. My sister had no idea the machine had been redesigned and felt bad about making the recommendation. After all, she’s very pleased with her Series 9.
This post was last edited 09/17/2019 at 04:52
|Post# 1045148 , Reply# 11   9/17/2019 at 06:30 (1,627 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Have been a resounding sales failure do to poor cleaning performance and no amount of cycle tweaking will solve a bad mechanical design, not only is cleaning poor it uses WAY too much water, detergent and hot water for what it does.
I will bet that SQ is working on design changes.
3.5 CF for a HD front load washer is big enough for any home use, it will easily wash the biggest thickest bedding etc.
I would guess that the TC TL design will stick around till a redesign of the TR models is out and running.
|Post# 1045214 , Reply# 12   9/17/2019 at 19:29 (1,627 days old) by PinkPower4 (USA)
The 2019 TR series seems to have a better wash action. I believe they did tweak the programming some. I like the idea of less moving parts.
The TR series design is like a front load turned upright. It reminds me of a carnival ride like the tilt-a-whirl or scrambler. The people in the seat tend to move together as a group without much space between them. Have you ever been the person on the end feeling squished? It looks like this is what also happens to the clothes as they are reversed forward and back with this type of wash action. This is why *I* think the results are not as good when a full load is washed. Is it a mechanical vs. electronic thing? I don't know.
With that said, I wonder what would happen if it there was one cycle where the agitator moved even faster with a back and forth action. I saw some videos of the old wringer washers. Only the paddle moves (the tub seems stationery on the ones I saw) in them but very briskly. The clothes seems to come out very clean in them.
Once the TC5 came out, those loyal to Speed Queen were a lot more critical of the Tag575 when they had favored it over the TR series. I now felt in the middle of a sea of "Sharkies". But seriously, I took the time to find out why. I now a better informed consumer and more careful in how I use the machine because of the very valuable feedback I received mostly in regard to the suspension and VMW design. It is after much deliberation, I realize I cannot afford to replace a machine that is working well for us and has three more years of warranty but cross that bridge when I come to it later.
However, I know some more important things to look for now with my next purchase, and I share this information with others (the good, bad, and ugly so they can make the best choice for them).
If I was without a washer, I would go with the TC5 now especially with the 10-yr. warranty. If not an option, the Tag575 is a good compromise. If these two not options for whatever reason, it looks like the Roper RTW4516FW2 is a rare gem in the big box stores.
If it wasn't for Speed Queen, Maytag never would have been pushed to build something better a better top load than the low build quality pushed at the big box stores that do not have enough water, cheaply made, poor wash action, and are considered disposable.
I hope Speed Queen swims (instead of sinks with these ridiculous regulations). I now know somewhere I can purchase my next washer through, and I can get it locally--no worries about transit damage or warranties. Really, I am sincerely grateful for all the help received here.
|Post# 1045227 , Reply# 13   9/17/2019 at 21:14 (1,627 days old) by mimon (Saginaw, MI)
"The TC series will be gone within a few years, the TR will be tweaked over the coming years. The TC was made to quiet the internet crybabies."
Tell you what thomasward00, if Speed Queen actually sticks with the TR with the agitator affixed to the tub, and it outlasts the TC's over the long haul, we'll all agree that you're right and we're all crybabies.
On the other hand, if Speed Queen:
1: Sticks with the TC's and quietly phases out the TR's
2: Modifies the TR's to allow for an independent agitator, thereby functionally making a new model in the old style
3: Releases a new model with independent agitator that quietly replaces the TR
Then any of these would be a tacit but indisputable acknowledgement that the TR is a failed design, whereupon we would all be right. As would Consumer Reports. And Lorain Furniture. And CNET.
And you would be a know-nothing fanboy.
Here's to seeing if Speed Queen makes you a fool.
|Post# 1045233 , Reply# 14   9/17/2019 at 23:29 (1,626 days old) by thomasward00 (KENTWOOD)
When my old machine died, I was actually researching front loaders for a more gentle wash action, I'm an engineer and the wife is a teacher so we don't have ultra dirty laundry. We spend a good bit on our clothing, 40% of my laundry is on the gentle cycle. My main concern was long term durability of the machine.
|Post# 1045234 , Reply# 15   9/17/2019 at 23:37 (1,626 days old) by thomasward00 (KENTWOOD)
Future EPA regulations will only become tighter and the old school wash action won't be able to meet them. Autofill and more electronic control will be needed and the TC wont be able to do that. Everything may become front load in the future due to water regulations.
Love it or hate it, old school won't cut it for any future washing machine.
|Post# 1045238 , Reply# 16   9/18/2019 at 00:39 (1,626 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)
|Post# 1045249 , Reply# 17   9/18/2019 at 05:30 (1,626 days old) by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)
As I’ve said before, F&P managed to build a gearbox free washer in the 80s.
Essentially two shafts with a single pulley and a motor that has precise speed control.
As long as the motor turns the pulley less than 300 degrees, the machine agitates.
Go past 300 degrees and the agitate and spin shafts lock together and it spins.
No gearbox, nothing complex.
See Chestermikes video for an example of what was possible 35 years ago. You just need good electronic speed control
|Post# 1045253 , Reply# 18   9/18/2019 at 06:30 (1,626 days old) by PinkPower4 (USA)
If SQ does not offer a top load that has durability and cleaning performance in a top load for the majority of us, then I don't predict they will be able to compete at least in the residential market in the future. Their residential front loads are too high in price, and I don't believe they even have a built-in water heater (a must-have feature for me in a front load).
I don't see their commercial washers in the laundry mats in my area either.
The bottom line is we are all here for the same purpose. We can work together to help create a better product and help others make informed choices without product bashing or name calling. I had to sort out the brand loyal comments from the true concerns. The difference is the people with the true concerns took the time to explain what the potential issues were and real-world performance. And the original Sharkie was one of the first to help me understand this. :-)
Those of us who have messy kids, enjoy outdoor sports, have to mow our own lawns, do our own repairs, like to work out of the gym, have family members that work technical trades, enjoy furry friends, and more need a different wash action than the TR series has. It is still not on my list to buy at any price with any warranty. I would rather buy a vmw again (first preference or take a look again at non SQ front loads) next time if the TC5 is not available because durability does our household no good if there is not cleaning performance to go with it.
SQ can combine the best of the TR with the TC5. I hope they do! I also hope other manufacturers improve the quality of their models too. The fact is not everyone can afford a $900+ for SQ "basic no frills" washer or there may be other reasons that SQ is not a choice.
Most of all, I wish I could just buy a Whirlpool set like I did twenty-five years ago and that the senseless regulations that only added to the initial cost of the machines, repair costs, dumped more chemicals in our waterways, added more to our landfills, and increased time and energy spent doing these tasks would just be repealed. Those manual twin tub washers with manual timers are starting to look pretty good to me.
|Post# 1045255 , Reply# 19   9/18/2019 at 06:50 (1,626 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)
Another difference between the TC5000 and the Series 9 (or 9 Series if you prefer):
I am forever grateful to Malcolm (mrb627) for posting this hack. You can skip to the next part of any cycle simply by pressing the WHITES and PERM PRESS pads simultaneously. I use this wonderful little hack frequently. It provides the all the flexibility of a mechanical timer. You can jump around in any cycle simply by pressing a couple of pads.
Case in point: Most small loads deserve slow agitation and require only spray rinses. I also like to wash loads of colors (shirts, dress shorts, etc.) the same way. I choose the BULKY cycle, let it fill and agitate, then return to the machine, power it down, select NORMAL ECO and press start. Agitation begins immediately because the tub is already filled. I press WHITES and PERM PRESS together and the machine jumps to the spin-drain/spray rinse portion of the cycle.
Does anyone know if there’s a way to advance to the next operation in the cycle on the TC5000?
brisnat81: Thanks for video of the vintage Fisher & Paykel. Are today’s F&P washers made the same way? Agitation in the video has the same distinctive sound I hear in videos of the brand’s newer machines.
thomasward00: Since most of your laundry is lightly soiled, the TR fits your needs—especially if reliability is your primary concern—and it’s very quiet, as well.
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This post was last edited 09/18/2019 at 07:22
|Post# 1045281 , Reply# 20   9/18/2019 at 10:47 (1,626 days old) by ladd (Maryland)
I too would love to know how to skip to the next phase of a cycle on a TC5000.
I CAN pass along the tip, if you don't already know it, on how at any point in a cycle you can cancel the cycle and go straight to final spin.
Press and hold the START pad for three seconds will PAUSE the cycle, along with an annoying beep every "X" number of seconds.
Continue to press and hold the START pad for (15 seconds?) and the cycle will skip to the final spin.
|Post# 1045293 , Reply# 21   9/18/2019 at 13:08 (1,626 days old) by eurekastar (Amarillo, Texas)
|Post# 1045312 , Reply# 22   9/18/2019 at 16:27 (1,626 days old) by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)
By the early 90s they moved to the Smartdrive DD pancake motor that is still in use today.
I suggest the Gentle Annie option for SQ because that is what they’ve already built, the just neglected to add seperate agitate and spin shafts.
|Post# 1045318 , Reply# 23   9/18/2019 at 17:20 (1,626 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)
|Post# 1045357 , Reply# 24   9/18/2019 at 22:14 (1,626 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)
I'm pretty sure they transitioned from one to the other. The exception may've been the rebadged versions of the Gentle Annie that where available. IE Fridgidaire, Kelvinator etc.
They werent cheap machines to make, 12 pole GE motor, electronic controls that take up a shoe box sized box, a milk stool suspension system, steel baseplate. Once they had the cheaper design ready to go it would've made financial sense to jump across.
|Post# 1045475 , Reply# 25   9/20/2019 at 06:24 (1,624 days old) by PinkPower4 (USA)
Does anyone have the parts lists for the TC5000wn? Just curious what it would cost to replace the board behind the knobs and the inverter drive later, if needed. I know from looking up parts on other appliances, this can vary widely.
Advantages / Disadvantage
I am trying to find information on the inverter drive and what is purpose is. I came across this explanation.
"Inverter means that there is an electronic drive control system between the incoming power supply and the outgoing power to the induction motor.
The advantage of Inverter drive is that the speed and torque of the motor can be precisely controlled so the result is a very quiet and smooth motor action. It also doesn’t have traditional brushes so doesn’t suffer from sparking or brush wear. The downsides are costs if they go wrong as the circuit board and induction motor are expensive.
With some products like an AC unit inverter motor control represents a big efficiency gain and running cost saving but there is little to be gained efficiency wise from using it in a washing machine. It is nice to not have the high rpm motor scream though."
Because the motor is precisely controlled, I have seen where this can decrease the stress on the bearings thus improving their life? I can replace the inverter drive, but not the bearings. Interesting.
Can anyone add some information to this? Thank you.
|Post# 1045478 , Reply# 26   9/20/2019 at 07:15 (1,624 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))
Inverters do improve efficency quite a lot over both asynchronus motors driven via line frequency (those SQ used in their washers before or as you would find in dryers) and brushed motors (more found in EU FLs until recently).
The Inverter units (which basicly just act as voltage and frequency modifiers) got really cheap to make recently.
Even the cheapest of the cheap machines over here now widely use inverter motors.
For a lot of dryers over here it is an essential part to use inverter motors to reach A+++ efficency ratings (highest official class).
While the efficency gains are usually only in the low double digit wattage range, that still is 5-10% more efficent.
They are far more flexible, far more reliable then brushed systems over all.
And yes you now have 2 control boards in your machine; thing is that if you had a machine with variable speed motor, that control was either integrated on the main PCB (like on many ELux machines over here) or was a seperate board already (see the Neptunes).
Torque is much higher and verry consistent compared to brushed motors, they are much quieter too.
Keep in mind that noise is just another form of inefficency, though it usually results from other inefficency, mostly friction.
I wouldn't really agree on that bearing thing per se.
What wears down bearings more is load perpendicular to the axis of rotation or along the axis of rotation, but not rotational force.
The way machines can be more bearing careing is that for example on a frontloader, the high torque and verry precise rpm control allow for verry elaborate yet quick rebalancing strategies.
Best example from over here:
Before spinning, Electrolux machines with brushed motors turn once clockwise, then speed up to distribution speeds counter clockwise, take about 10sec to sense the balance of the load, then drop rpm to tumbling agin for 5 sec if needed, and repeat a max of 3 times before starting over again.
With pauses that gives you 5 tries in 5 min.
If they have an inverter, they do 5 tumlbles in reversing directions, starting out at a higher wash speed clockwise, increasing speed by 5 rpm every time.
On the 6th speed (after a minute or so) we are at distributing.
This pulled apart tangeled laundry somewhat allowing it to distribute better.
On that first distribute it dosent need more than 5sec to sense, then drops and restarts.
This allows it 5 or 6 tries in 30sec or so.
This means we still get 5 or 6 tries in 5 min, but have more distributions and a better distribution preperation.
Thus, out of balance boundaries for aborts can be set narrower, theoreticly improofing bearing life.
Or, on quick cycles, or on lower rpms, these cut offs can be set more precisley and more versatile.
|Post# 1045497 , Reply# 27   9/20/2019 at 12:35 (1,624 days old) by eronie (Flushing Michigan)
Most bearing troubles are not caused by speed, out of balance, reversing etc. Bad seals let water into bearings that's where the trouble starts.
|Post# 1045770 , Reply# 28   9/23/2019 at 14:46 (1,621 days old) by Blackstone (Springfield, Massachusetts)
I have read and reread the SQ discussion here, and I'm glad that I did. I agree that the mechanical design of the TC is better than the TR redesign. I went into the dealer today, intending to buy the TC5000. The SQ models on the floor were TRs. I had the ask the salesman for the TC. Is it safe to assume that dealers are trying to unload the TR models that they have in inventory?
If the same situation had been around when I was a dealer, I can imagine that it would be difficult to explain the difference in mechanics to the average customer. Tough call.
Delivery on Friday. Still keeping my 28-year-old Amana, in case I run across a good motor for it.
|Post# 1045773 , Reply# 29   9/23/2019 at 15:20 (1,621 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)
Congratulations on your new purchase!
Interesting that you found only TR models on the showroom floor; same thing at my local dealer. He had four TR pairs on the floor. When I asked about ordering the TC, he immediately tried to talk me into the TR—“It’s a better machine! Cleans better (yeah, right) and is super quiet!”
Wonder if SQ/Alliance is giving dealers an incentive of some sort to push the TRs.
By the way, I was washer shopping for a friend, not for myself. In the end, I suggested she get an LG3500 front-loader. She loves it! Personally, I’d want the LG3900 with the new Turbo Wash 360 system and an internal water heater, but neither of those things were important to her. And she saved about $250.
|Post# 1046096 , Reply# 30   9/27/2019 at 09:26 (1,617 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)
"The Series 9 fills to the selected water level; score 1 for it. The TC5000, however, fills with the actual water temp selected. The Series 9: If warm or hot water is selected, it fills with a few inches of warm water, then switches to cold for the remainder of the fill. Score 1 for the TC."
My 2017 9 series fills with whatever temperature is selected for the entirety of the fill.
|Post# 1046106 , Reply# 31   9/27/2019 at 11:18 (1,617 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)
|Post# 1046108 , Reply# 32   9/27/2019 at 12:09 (1,617 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)
“Hi John-- Are you sure your Series 9 SQ fills with the selected temp on the Normal/Eco cycle? That's the only cycle that fills with a few inches of warm water, then switches to cold for the remainder of the fill. All other cycles fill completely with the selected temp. “
I stand corrected! Wow! On Eco it did change to cold after 3 inches of water. And hot was only warm.
|Post# 1046270 , Reply# 33   9/29/2019 at 10:16 (1,615 days old) by ladd (Maryland)
On the TC5000, while using the ECO cycle and selecting HOT as the water fill temp, it does, in fact, fill with hot water for only about 30 seconds then switches over to cold.
If, while using the ECO cycle, you additionally select "Extra Rinse", the water temperature will remain hot for the full fill cycle.
No change to the rinse temps, which remain cold.
|Post# 1046272 , Reply# 34   9/29/2019 at 10:25 (1,615 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)
Thanks for that clarification! I have never selected an extra rinse when using the Normal Eco cycle. I use that cycle specifically for the water-saving spray rinses.
I’m going to choose an extra rinse to see if that makes the Series 9 fill with the selected wash temp. It seems that choosing an extra rinse basically replicates the Heavy Duty cycle with an extra rinse.
|Post# 1046477 , Reply# 35   9/30/2019 at 21:47 (1,614 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)
Normal Eco Cycle Series 9: Unlike the TC5000, which Ladd reports fills with the selected wash temp if you choose the extra rinse option, my 2017 Series 9 fills with a few inches of warm water and then shifts to cold for the remainder of the fill, even if you choose 1, 2, or 3 extra rinses.
And now we know!
|Post# 1077409 , Reply# 36   6/16/2020 at 19:14 (1,354 days old) by MP (US)
When I had asked the following question of SpeedQueen about their TC5: “Can I cancel the cycle as soon as the initial spin (the one after the wash cycle) is over and then start a new wash cycle to act in place of the rinse cycle?” I was told “No. There is a chance of hindering the computer and where it is at.”) I don't know what that is supposed to mean. Anyone have an idea?
I was glad to read the following below: "I CAN pass along the tip, if you don't already know it, on how at any point in a cycle you can cancel the cycle and go straight to final spin." Thank you for this information. I suppose that it is the only thing I can do if I want to skip the Rinse portion of a cycle (and not waste all that water) in order to use a Wash cycle in place of the Rinse. In this way I can get a warmer rinse in the wintertime when my tap water is 40 degrees.
Unless someone has another idea?
I see from videos that the fill up for the Rinse starts when the Spin hasn't even completed. In general if there is some water in the drum when one skips to the Final Spin, will the machine drain it first or just drain it as part of the Spin?
Does anyone know if "playing around" with the controls, in other words- pausing and cancelling etc. on every cycle, so that I can get the temperatures that I like for the Wash (usually somewhere between Hot and Warm) and the Rinse (something warmer than tap cold) will make the control board wear out prematurely? -Thanks!
|Post# 1077478 , Reply# 37   6/16/2020 at 23:30 (1,353 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
|Post# 1077519 , Reply# 38   6/17/2020 at 11:38 (1,353 days old) by MP (US)
John: Thanks so much for responding. Of course he may be wrong, but after reading online that warm water rinses out detergent better than cold, I checked with a friend who is a chemist and he agrees that this is basically true. I need to replace a 20 year old Whirlpool that I would turn back to the wash cycle to fill with cool water (as opposed to the frigid water that comes from cold tap in the winter) for the rinse cycle. I don't have a laundry sink to get hot water.
May I ask why you feel adding hot water won't help it rinse better? Do you think 40 degree water can effectively rinse detergent out of clothes?
If I do wish to use a wash cycle in place of the rinse cycle, do you have a better recommendation than cancelling the cycle as the rinse water starts to fill and skip to the final spin, start a new wash cycle and after that is over, skip to the final spin again? (technically I'd be doing an extra spin after the wash cycle and an extra final spin.)
BTW, as the washer is filling with water, does one have to press the start/pause button to pause the cycle in order to change the water temperature (for example, to get a temperature somewhere between hot and warm) or does moving the dial accomplish this w/o pressing the start/pause button?
Thanks so much.
|Post# 1077579 , Reply# 39   6/17/2020 at 17:58 (1,353 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
BUT, no detergent manufacturer or washer manufacturer the world over recommends doing so, So there is probably very little positive effect over not rinsing in cold water water.
If you use a hot wash as you should for best cleaning with minimal detergent the machine and clothing will be hot enough to warm up the rinse somewhat anyway.
Using a warm rinse also encourages mold and bacteria Growth in your clean clothing and the washer as well, cold water helps keep bacteria at bay.
Not wasting hot water for rinsing is a simple and effective step to help prevent serious climate change without giving up much if anything.
|Post# 1077584 , Reply# 40   6/17/2020 at 18:25 (1,353 days old) by MP (US)
Thanks, John. I hear what you are saying about the warm water rinse. Except for the summer months, on my current machine, when the rinse cycle starts, I move the dial back temporarily to the wash cycle to get a warmer rinse than I would get on the rinse cycle, but I do not put in warm water. I put in a combination of warm and cold water to get it to be approx 60-65 degrees. Otherwise in the winter, the cold is 40 degrees or even a little less. When detergent manufacturers speak about rinsing in cold, they always equate cold with about 60 degrees. If my tap cold never fell below 60 degrees, I wouldn't be trying to find a way to use the wash cycle for the rinse cycle on the Speed Queen. Before I purchase it I want to be sure I can do that as I am not confident that I can rinse the clothes in 40 degrees. (I don't wash on straight hot and some loads need cool water so the clothes won't be warming the water much.)
If I do wish to use a wash cycle in place of the rinse cycle, my only idea is to cancel the cycle as the rinse water starts to fill and skip to the final spin by holding down the pause/start button for many seconds, then start a new wash cycle and after that is over, skip to the final spin again. Technically I'd be doing an extra spin after the wash cycle and an extra final spin. I would love to hear if you have a better idea!
Thanks so much
|Post# 1077591 , Reply# 41   6/17/2020 at 19:08 (1,353 days old) by kenwashesmonday (Carlstadt, NJ)
If you wash in hot, rinsing in cold will shock the fabric and shrink it. When I wash in hot water, I rinse in warm. When I wash in warm, I rinse in cold.
|Post# 1077630 , Reply# 42   6/17/2020 at 22:36 (1,352 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Hi M, where have you seen it said that detergent and appliance makers say cold rinses are 60F ?
Hi Ken, I guess that if washing in hot water and rinsing in cold shocks and shrinks clothing millions of people the world over must be destroying their damp clothing by ironing it with a hot iron, I have never heard such nonsense, LOL
|Post# 1077638 , Reply# 43   6/17/2020 at 23:31 (1,352 days old) by MP (US)
Mostly thru contacting manufacturers of Tide and Persil and also either reading manuals of different washers or doing "chats" with the companies (I forget which one.)
|Post# 1079944 , Reply# 44   7/5/2020 at 17:39 (1,335 days old) by dylanmitchell (Southern California)
Tap water here comes in at 60-70 degrees and can be over 75 degrees in the summer, so almost every load is done with cold water. Sun heats water in above ground municipal strorage tanks and our pipes re only a foot or two deep so they absorb heat too. It's also common to see washing machines and water heaters in unheated garages.
|Post# 1079957 , Reply# 45   7/5/2020 at 18:50 (1,335 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)
|Post# 1081903 , Reply# 46   7/21/2020 at 16:18 (1,319 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)
I'm glad I was able to come across reading the differences between the old 2017 models and the new TC5. A couple years ago, I was very fortunate enough to use two AWN412SP111TW01 washers (I'm not sure how old they really were but they look like one of their 2017 models) for half a year. It was my very first SQ experience and also my first discovery about SQ. Boy where have I been all these years lol, these instantly became my new favorite washers since using my grandparent's Kenmore 90 Series. I was disappointed to hear about the performances of the new TR series, a year ago I recommended my uncle a SQ and that's what he ended up getting. It wasn't shortly until I found out SQ had completely redesigned their top load washers and I was worried that my uncle went with one of the TR models. But he and his wife have been really pleased with it so far. I don't know which one they got but hopefully sometime this year I will find out for sure. I will be very surprised if it is in fact one of the TR models but I'm hoping that it's a TC5 because I would very much like to try it out for myself. I'm very interested in getting one for my own place one of these days. If not, then I would be interested to look into one of their used 2017 models or older like this set that I've used last year. I don't know what models both of them were. Maybe a SQ expert can help identify them? I think they were from 1995 based on the energy guide label from the washer.