Thread Number: 80779
/ Tag: Modern Dishwashers
WSJ Editorial Board: Make Dishwashers That Clean Again |
[Down to Last] |
Post# 1047683   10/14/2019 at 11:29 (1,796 days old) by stricklybojack (South Hams Devon UK)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
3    
.
Sources close to the situation report what the insiders reveal...it ain’t right! CLICK HERE TO GO TO stricklybojack's LINK
View Full Size
This post was last edited 10/14/2019 at 16:13 |
|
Post# 1047715 , Reply# 1   10/14/2019 at 19:16 (1,796 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
13    
Let me throw the first grenade. Every modern dishwasher I’ve had has cleaned very well using relatively little water and energy. Brands include Frigidaire, Maytag, LG, GE and my current machine, a portable low-end Whirlpool. In fact, due to the racket it makes, I use only the 1-hr cycle and it does a bang-up job, even on pots/pans.
Having said that, I fully understand the complaints about 2 hour + 40 minute normal cycles. I’d also argue that drying is more of a problem than actual cleaning with some of today’s dishwashers. |
Post# 1047734 , Reply# 3   10/14/2019 at 22:11 (1,796 days old) by Tomdawg (Des moines)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
Make washers and dryers clean again! I’m not impressed by whirlpool’s new design. If they made a quality machine, I would buy whirlpool again. Until next time. (IMO) |
Post# 1047748 , Reply# 5   10/15/2019 at 05:43 (1,795 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
7    
Yes, consumers are loathe to change their habits to fit how "newfangled" machinery works. For example, habitual prerinsers impair the performance of dishwashers with soil sensors ... causing the cycle to be shortened AND heating temperatures reduced. Many also get in a tizzy about those long cycles (on both washers and dishwashers), choosing the shortest "Quick" cycle regardless of load size and/or stain/soil level (which particularly comes into play for laundry). |
Post# 1047770 , Reply# 8   10/15/2019 at 10:42 (1,795 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
4    
I think products have become highly scented because it's now cheap for manufacturers to make them that way and people actually prefer them (or equate highly-scented with "more powerful.") The original Tide liquid is P&G's latest victim. Over at the Tide website there's plenty of outrage and all P&G will say is that most consumers prefer an "intense" fragrance.
The Tide Powder with Bleach is still lightly scented but I now expect it to be turned into unbearable perfume at any time and any box I buy could be my last.
As far as energy efficiency goes, appliance manufacturing is now in the hands of a few global corporations. A temporary pause in the USA's standards isn't going to change much, if anything.
|
Post# 1047783 , Reply# 9   10/15/2019 at 15:01 (1,795 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
3    
It just takes 88 minutes as opposed to an hour or less than my 90's single motor and pump type. |
Post# 1047793 , Reply# 11   10/15/2019 at 16:50 (1,795 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
2    
|
Post# 1047822 , Reply# 13   10/16/2019 at 02:09 (1,795 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
2    
Flash drying - at least that's what I recall the owner's manual for the Bosch SHU43C sez. Frankly I think it dries well enough. The only water left behind is that caught in the concave bottoms of certain items like cups and wine glasses. Simple enough just to tip them over, and maybe wipe a little off with a clean towel.
Then again, I chose the longest and hottest cycle (pot scrubber) so when the cycle is over, there's a cloud of steam if you open it right away. I'm not sure if things dry faster with the DW open or closed.
As for cleaning, it's rare that everything doesn't come out spotless. The only time I had trouble with it was when the drain pump needed replacement. Before the Bosch I had a Frigidaire which was a nightmare. It lasted about five years, and I picked up the Bosch as a customer return at Sears. No regrets. |
Post# 1047849 , Reply# 14   10/16/2019 at 14:10 (1,794 days old) by golittlesport (California)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
8    
I don't really get that complaint. Are they waiting for the dishwasher to finish so they can serve dinner on the clean plates?
I typically turn the dishwasher on when I go to bed -- doesn't matter if it runs 30 minutes or 3 hours -- I wake up to spotless dishes. I agree with the majority here that modern dishwashers are more efficient, do a superior job and are much quieter. I remember my mom having to turn the dishwasher off when she would get a phone call. I believe unsatisfied customers are probably not using the machines correctly and have not read the instruction books that came with their machines. |
Post# 1047851 , Reply# 15   10/16/2019 at 15:00 (1,794 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
7    
|
Post# 1047852 , Reply# 16   10/16/2019 at 15:28 (1,794 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
4    
The problem for me with super-long cycles is that two loads usually need to be run when I have company. I try to do a load of cookware before the meal, but that doesn’t always play out. Back at the house (and the warehouse apt.) there could easily be three or even four loads when making big meals for 8+. It’s in those cases where cycle time can really add up. |
Post# 1047855 , Reply# 17   10/16/2019 at 15:43 (1,794 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
6    
I actually have some faith renewed seeing that most don't agree with this misinformed opinion article. I've now had three of Whirlpool's current platform dishwashers in this house since late 2015: the WDT920 that has become YouTube famous and has several threads on this site with peanut butter glasses in the corner of the top rack and the scorched on foods tests, and is now living at my grandparents' house because I wanted them to have something sleek and modern and silent in their new kitchen, then the KDFE104 that I adored but ended up letting HD return it because it had been damaged in shipping on the back, which made the upper ball bearing rack glides seem "off" during the 6-7 months I had it, which resulted in the WDF520 that I have now that will stay with the house when we move, that also has beyond impressed me considering it's a much more mid range model than the TOL quality of the 920 and KitchenAid, yet cleans like a beast while running all wash levels. I even have some video clips of it posted after I swapped in the third level wash manifold, and it's about as close as we can probably get on the market today that resembles the "hurricane in a box" of the PowerCleans and old KitchenAid's.
All of these machines have "pond pumps", they all have normal cycle times of 2-2.5 hours, and all use around 3-4 gallons on a normally soiled full load, and they all, each and every time produce perfect results, and I've yet to have any sort of odor or more than a tiny speck every once in a blue moon. And after I modified the 520 with Noico sound mastic all over the outer surfaces and inside the door, it's as silent as both the other 46db rated machines. Also, as much as I revere the PowerClean as one of the most well designed and bulletproof dishwashers to ever grace this earth, all of these modern machines outperform it in overall cleaning, quietness, and efficiency. I adored the PC but because of its rapid cycles with today's enzyme based detergents, I frequently would pull out a stray spoon or bowl that would still have a bit of dried goop on it. And this is just based on WP's platforms. There are many brands and designs being offered today that easily compare in performance, though build quality and "feel" are arguable in my opinion. And laundry is a whole other rant with the same idea, after I've now owned two HE top loaders and the front load I've had now for 2 years. |
Post# 1047859 , Reply# 19   10/16/2019 at 15:47 (1,794 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
8    
I've also mentioned this before in other threads, but I will never understand the hang up over cycle times. It would be one thing if these machines had to be hand operated, but jeez, all you have to do is set your options, click a button, and walk away, and when you come back when it's done, the whole operation has been finished. That's the whole point of an "automatic" washer or dishwasher!? I can't imagine being someone pacing in front of the machine, biting their nails in distress because they're waiting for the exact moment they can pop that lid or door open. There are thousands of things a person can do in the time that machine is doing its job completely on its own. Go watch a movie or something, lol.
|
Post# 1047860 , Reply# 20   10/16/2019 at 15:55 (1,794 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
7    
Needing fast cycle times during company is a valid argument, but at the same time, during my 29 years of life and all the holidays at my grandparents' and aunt Robin's, both being the "adults" I've always looked up to and admired, I vividly remember that when the kitchen was busy and they were the showrunners delegating tasks, ALL the pots and pans, bake-ware, and large items like huge mixing bowls and such, were all washed by hand as we went. And I do that to this day. All the dinnerware and small stuff goes in the dishwasher, so long as none of it is wood or nonstick. Even having a 15 person Thanksgiving as recent as last year, we didn't have a back up of dishes or a shortage of anything, and the dishwasher ran twice the whole day, fully packed. I myself dislike handwashing dishes, but when it's all large items, it kinda cuts down on the time, versus if you had all the little utensils and silverware and cups to deal with.
|
Post# 1047866 , Reply# 21   10/16/2019 at 16:42 (1,794 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
4    
I'm one of the ones who has commented more than once about long cycle times. My thought (and I'm not alone in this): I don't like leaving an appliance running fully unattended. I won't hover over it, of course, but I want to be around in case something goes wrong (like screams of mechanical anguish, or the sound of water running when it shouldn't). Perhaps I'm too conservative or paranoid...
These long cycle times may or may not work with a particular schedule. |
Post# 1047867 , Reply# 22   10/16/2019 at 16:50 (1,794 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
2    
I also have commented on long cycle times for entertaining. It's possibly valid to think of a situation outlined above of a family gathering where people might be recruited to do dishes. (Indeed, I've heard this before--one dishwasher detractor I know chirped cheerfully that the only time I'd ever have lots of dishes is for family gatherings, and everyone will pitch in to clean the kitchen!) But this doesn't apply to all families, and it may not apply to other entertaining one might do.
As always, a lot hinges on the person and his or her circumstances... |
Post# 1047868 , Reply# 23   10/16/2019 at 16:50 (1,794 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
2    
|
Post# 1047871 , Reply# 24   10/16/2019 at 17:25 (1,794 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
5    
No hand washing is allowed at my house. I'm one of those "strange" people that won't use anything unless it's been washed in the dishwasher. In the process of preparing things for a company meal, or something similar, I have been known to "sort" dishware and give first priority any/everything that can be washed with simply using the 1-hour cycle.
The one time I haver used the delay start feature was two years ago. When I awoke the next morning, that was when the diverter/distribution valve decided to tank. I'm too skiddish to tempt fate again and have that happen all over again. I just don't fall asleep very easily knowing the dishwasher is still running. I've ceased using the dry cycle most of the time as it's just about finished with the final rinse by the time I'm ready to go to bed. That way I can open the door and let everything flash/steam dry over night. |
Post# 1047874 , Reply# 25   10/16/2019 at 17:29 (1,794 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
6    
I agree with you. Cleaning, cycle times are no issue. It's the fact that they are designed to die in a much shorter amount of time that bugs me to no end. Especially since the USA is always professing how we can limit environmental impacts by being more energy conscious and yet they cut corners or design these machines to live a much shorter life and we end up having to replace them more frequently. It makes ZERO sense with environmental impact in mind. I think proper maintenance helps some... but my refrigerator is designed to fail just the way it's built, no matter how clean I keep the coils.
|
Post# 1047888 , Reply# 27   10/16/2019 at 20:14 (1,794 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
5    
Every dishwasher I’ve had in the last 10 years has had an impressively effective short cycle. That really keeps things moving in multiple/consecutive loads situations.
I used to entertain 2-3 times a week—often with multiple entree buffets—so the dishwasher had to do multiple loads frequently. An effective short cycle (usually 45-75 minutes) was an important feature. |
Post# 1047890 , Reply# 28   10/16/2019 at 21:02 (1,794 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
4    
And a new Kitchen aid will cost you upwards to $1500 today, and still be designed to fail in five to eight years.
Perspective: the year my mom bought her first dishwasher, you could get a decent slightly used car for $1500. I just think for a grand or more the dishwasher should outlast the main course. |
Post# 1047893 , Reply# 29   10/16/2019 at 21:32 (1,794 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
4    
A TOL KitchenAid was advertised for $499 in 1980 in my local paper. That would be just over $1500 today.
For a long time I've been of the opinion that paying more often just gets you more features, not more reliability. But who knows?
I would love to see a real parts breakdown and reliability study of the various WP models today:
Cheap $300 Whirlpool Mid-range $600 Maytag High-end $1500 KitchenAid
And see what lasted longer.
|
Post# 1047899 , Reply# 31   10/16/2019 at 22:26 (1,794 days old) by Lordkenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
2    
>I would love to see a real parts breakdown and reliability study of the various WP models
It would be interesting. I can't qualify as any sort of expert...but I have thought that a more expensive appliance may not buy anything past more features. Performance and lifespan might not be much different vs. a lower end model (at least as long as one isn't at the rock bottom "it's cheap because it's cheap, not just because it costs little" level). Actually, reliability of a lower end model might be better: fewer features=less stuff to break. |
Post# 1047907 , Reply# 32   10/17/2019 at 02:58 (1,794 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
I've thought of this. Buying the very expensive TOL appliance may not yield any more longevity than the BOL which is SAD!!!
Is a water heater an appliance? Anyway- we just got a new one. I noticed that the BOL had a 6-year limited warranty but the TOL had a 12-year limited warranty. So maybe TOL does get you better build quality? I don't know. I just assumed mostly today the TOL got you more features, or larger capacity - but pretty much the same build quality underneath. |
Post# 1047908 , Reply# 33   10/17/2019 at 03:22 (1,794 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
4    
I don't think we can say this is true across the board with all manufacturers but it's been my experience that it's usually true.
My most recent experience of this was when I was shopping for a dishwasher. I noticed that just in the BOSCH line alone those machines that costs less had racks that were not as adjustable as those in the higher cost models (feature) and noticed that the lower end models had a plastic bottom while the higher end were all stainless (build quality?). Does this matter in the long run? Each person will have a different answer because we all use different criteria to evaluate. I wanted the third rack, etc. so I had to pay a little more to get it.
Another example for us last year was when one of our door openers went out. Since both were almost 20 years old we decided to replace both which is not an inexpensive endeavor (and I'm a little OCD and wanted them to match :) ). I did a lot of research and found big differences in the features and build quality among the lower end models through to the higher end. In the end I went for the better warranty (I got ten years), what is supposed to be a better drive mechanism and had the WiFi abilities I wanted. I also was able to purchase from a local Overheard door franchise which I try to do whenever I can. And because it wasn't a big box store I was able to negotiate a better price since I was buying two instead of one. I try to support local when I can vs. the big box stores. |
Post# 1047912 , Reply# 34   10/17/2019 at 05:04 (1,793 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
4    
Part of the cost increase on higher-end models IS for the increased warranty coverage, if that's a touted benefit. Consider Speed Queen's toploader line -- TR3, TR5, TR7. Each higher model has a longer warranty (3 yrs, 5 yrs, 7 yrs ... notwithstanding their current promotion of 10 yrs on all), and more features which are just more options enabled on the electronic controls. The mechanical operational components are otherwise identical from one to another. |
Post# 1047918 , Reply# 35   10/17/2019 at 07:05 (1,793 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
3    
Would likely be the $299 machine, the highest end models differently have many more problems.
Likewise the lower end Bosch DWs are considerably longer lived and less problem prone than their high end models, however Bosch DWs are much flimsier than WP built machines, the number of broken handles, rack wheels and even bent doors we see on Bosch DWs shows that they are not a good choice for rentals and student housing situations, LOL
With appliances like water heaters , furnaces and central A?C units the more expensive models will generally last longer and cost less to operate.
Garbage disposers are a good example of getting what you paid for, aTOL ISE disposer will cost 3 or 4 times as much as a Bager but will last 2-3 times as long and will not clog your drains.
Range hoods are another good example of getting a much better product if you pay more.
John L. |
Post# 1047920 , Reply# 36   10/17/2019 at 07:21 (1,793 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
Yeah, those are the worst part on these machines. For some reason, they always break when used heavily, the clips on them just snap... |
Post# 1047989 , Reply# 38   10/17/2019 at 23:41 (1,793 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
Checkrate/Likes
 
1    
It's my impression that warranties on water heaters have mostly to do with the number and quality of the anode rods in the heaters. More anode rod means less corrosion of the glass lined steel tank, and a longer tank life.
There may be other bells and whistles, of course, to go along with a higher price.
I'm keeping my 40 year old water heater going by replacing the anode rod every 10 years or so. I also flush it out every three or four years. It's probably due now. Seems to run fine. The only hiccup in the last 20 years has been the pilot got plugged up and the entire thing stopped producing hot water. That was about two years ago. There's no sediment trap in the gas line to the heater, which means some gunk got into the pilot circuit. It wasn't hard to fix once I figured out what the problem was, and it's been running fine since. Nope, haven't put a sediment trap in the line yet. Lazy.
I did add another layer of insulation to the tank, and some foam insulation on the hot water pipes under the house. I think it helps. We'll see.
Better water heaters have two or more anode rods. One as a free standing one, which is basic. The other one is incorporated into the cold water inlet (a long pipe called a dip tube that puts cold water to the bottom of the tank, so it gets heated faster without unduly cooling the entire tankful). Although on my water heater, the dip tube is plastic. I know that because I replaced it at one point.
There are also two types of anode rods. The most common around here are magnesium, and they have a little raised dot in the center of the anode rod attachment nut at the top of the water heater. The other type is aluminum, and has a flat nut. I think the magnesium ones are better, but in some locations aluminum is used because the magnesium isn't as well suited to the water quality. And aluminum rods are cheaper.
|