Thread Number: 80784  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
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Post# 1047763   10/15/2019 at 09:10 by henene4 (Germany)        

So, ahm, I kind of spend way to much money on a new washer for my self, but I kept walking past it every day I work, and it was really cheap for what it is...
It'll take the Gorenjes place which will be stored away until I move out.




I finally joined the Miele club!
Gotta great deal on an old stock Speedcare 1600 model (WCH 370 IIRC).


Gonna be delivered friday, hopefully I'll be abled to calibrate it before heading off for the weekend.



On that note: I'm pretty certain I posted a link to a W1 service manual at some point.
Does anybody remember when where I did that?


Post# 1047782 , Reply# 1   10/15/2019 at 14:58 by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
oh, I am still

wanting a C-3 Brilliant, but a new central built in system here still costs a lot less than $1,500 US for the power unit, hose, attatchments, and power nozzle.

Post# 1047807 , Reply# 2   10/15/2019 at 18:49 by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture

Henrik, congratulations.  I'm looking forward to your observations and the fun you'll be having with it.  


Post# 1047808 , Reply# 3   10/15/2019 at 18:57 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
Let me add my congratulations on the acquisition of a new Miele washer! Looking forward to your review and observations. And photos; lots of photos!

Post# 1047877 , Reply# 4   10/16/2019 at 18:13 by henene4 (Germany)        

Was somewhat worried as I probably won't be around when it will be delivered and I know our delivery drivers (bought it at the place I work at) as I booked delivery with setup (didn't fancy moving 100kg around the house and leveling it).

Pretty sure they'll want to test the connections and show my flatmates how to use it and will skip the calibration cycle.
That cycle is VITAL for the PowerWash 2.0 to work as intended.

Now I am 90% certain I know how to recalibrate the machine if need be as I found the service manual for a washer dryer version of a simmilar machine.



Will try to make it in time anyway...


Post# 1047883 , Reply# 5   10/16/2019 at 19:33 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture

Henrik—I’ve not heard of a calibration cycle. What parameters get calibrated?

Do other brands in Europe have similar cycles or this is exclusive to Miele?

 

Hope you can work out a way to be present for installation.

 


Post# 1047905 , Reply# 6   10/17/2019 at 01:09 by mieleforever (SOUTH AFRICA)        

Congratulations on your Miele acquisition - it will not let you down and you will be impressed by it's quality, and the thoroughness in taking care of your laundry. I must say our Miele is doing some heavy lifting every day of its life as and not one hickup has ever occurred.

I remember when ours was delivered, it had the first wash in which some impurities will be removed - I think it will wash at a rather high temperature to rid it of all oils that may have accumulated during the manufacturing process.

From there on no laundry will stand in its way.

So enjoy.

Regards



Post# 1047911 , Reply# 7   10/17/2019 at 04:12 by henene4 (Germany)        
Frigilux

The PowerWash 2.0 relies a lot on algorhythmic calculations for heating times and load sensing.

At the verry begining during the first Spin&Spray cycle the recirc shuts of for a moment while the tub pulls up to a higher spin speed.
This pull up is used to gather motor data (nor unlike the Cabrios sensing or LGs sensing method). That is calibrated.
Further the washer gathers a lot of data on heating patterns specific to tub and heater installed.

As far as I read the manual the service technician has to run this first wash again if certain parts were replaced.



Samsungs has a user accesible calibration mode but that runs dry and for like 6min of tub turning only.

Haven't heared of any other machine needing such lenghty calibration.


Post# 1048007 , Reply# 8   10/18/2019 at 05:49 by henene4 (Germany)        
It's here

Pics first

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Post# 1048008 , Reply# 9   10/18/2019 at 05:56 by henene4 (Germany)        
So

They carried the old one up to the attick for a tenner which is nice.

Machine is standing nice and level enough.



Calibration cycle:

Machine filled with 4l of water first which was about enough to have about 1cm in the drum and heated some (enough to feel quite a lot of heat at the second window) while tumbling in something like the anti crease rhythm.

Then after almost exactly 25min it filled higher (11l now, about enough for the water level to be about 1cm or so above the paddles) and started tumbling with the intensive rhythm but hasn't heated since.

About an hour left on that, no recirculation yet.





I'll leave for the weekend in a couple of hours after I set everything up and started the first load.


Post# 1048013 , Reply# 10   10/18/2019 at 08:12 by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
A beautiful washer! Thanks for all the pics. What are the pacs in photo #1?

Glad you were able to be there for the installation. I'd have a hard time leaving for the weekend, LOL. I'd be scouring the place for anything that could possibly need laundering.


Post# 1048042 , Reply# 11   10/18/2019 at 16:48 by henene4 (Germany)        

Those are the 3 CapDos caps that were shipped with the machine.

I'll get into those more at some point, ordered some together with the Miele UltraWhite that I got for free with a voucher that came with the machine.


Post# 1048043 , Reply# 12   10/18/2019 at 16:50 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

Henrik:

If you can find it, can you post a link to the service manual for the W1. I think you said it was for the washer/Dryer, but I would like to browse the copy anyway. Thanks.

Frigilux:

My W1(USA) version did the calibration run. It is the first run the machine can make and there must not be any clothes in it. I don't exactly know what it did, but you had to run a Normal cycle at 140F. It ran for close to 2 hours. During that time the glass in the door got very warm- I think warmer than any other time I;ve run a 140F Normal cycle. The machine went through a 140F wash and two rinses and all the spins.

I had read about this run in the manual before my machine was delivered in January of this year and I wanted to wait until the machine warmed up a bit since it was on the truck all day and the temperature never got over 25F. The delivery guys insisted they had to see the machine running before they left so I had to start the calibration run with an ice-cold machine.

After that, I could run any program cycle I wanted to. I am not sure what happened, but I think the manual said it was so the machine could be adjusted to your home environment. I think it might have something to do with setting time estimates for program cycles and perhaps adjusting it to your water pressure. This is probably a good idea since my laundry is in an unheated space in the basement and even in the summer, I can hear the washer heater click on as soon as the wash water enters the tub. It continues to click on and off until about 9 minutes before the end of the wash.

I don't see any setting on the machine that lets me rerun the calibration.





Post# 1048044 , Reply# 13   10/18/2019 at 16:57 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        
Nice machine

Henrik. Mine has the wide white ring around the door, but I much prefer your door with the silver ring.

Post# 1048046 , Reply# 14   10/18/2019 at 17:15 by henene4 (Germany)        
Link

Not the source I girst thought off, but here is the copy I downloaded now:

fliphtml5.com/jknmy/kxha/basic/35...


Post# 1048258 , Reply# 15   10/20/2019 at 18:32 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

Henrik
I noticed that your machine has a quick Powerwash, but it also has Powerwash as an option. Can you tell me how quick Powerwash differs from the Powerwash as an option, or do I have that understanding wrong?

Your machine's control panel is similar to mine so I guess Miele is sticking with one design language across all of their machines of the same time period.

Be careful with the lid of the fabric softener. I nicked my finger on the underside because it has those two pointed pieces that are used to puncture the cap foil. The nick wasn't bad, but it was enough that I felt it and looked to see where it came from.

Here's my control panel:
Sorry for the smudges but I had been using the machine most of the day so my fingerprints are all over it.


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Post# 1048300 , Reply# 16   10/21/2019 at 08:53 by henene4 (Germany)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 1048301 , Reply# 17   10/21/2019 at 09:05 by henene4 (Germany)        

Currently getting my windshield fixed (stone hit it yesterday on the way home, luckily just a small chip that can be just fixed and is completely covered by insurance) and have to wait for half an hour.



Frigilux:

Thos are the CapDos caps that ship with the machine as promotion basicly.

You place them in the fabric softner compartment where they click into the middle post and as you close the lid you have to apply some force so the small thorns in the 2 middle holes pierce the foil.

On the panel you select the Cap button and then one of 3 cap types that us indicated by a symbol on the caps (detergent, softner or booster) and the machine adds the agent at the apropiate time and optimized to what might be in the load depending on the cycle.

Idea is that you get perfect results even for situations you seldomly encounter without having to have a complete bottle of something laying around.

For example I ordered their CottonRepair caps which reduce pilling as wells as Outdoor detergent and stuff to re-waterproof items.

Caps are I think 7Ä for 6 for most stuff or 13 for 3 for the special stuff like the CottonRepair or waterproofing agent.



jerrod6:

The PowerWash icon lights on every programm I've used so far and only indicates the recirculation is used.

The Quick and Eco buttons are more akin to the "Short" option and "Eco" setting on older Programm Manger systems.

The QuickPowerWash cycle is the updated version with either 59min with Quick selected as default or 1:15h with Quick deselected and the more extensive rinsing process.




Have been running several cycles ans will report on them once I'm home as that will be a bit more in detail.


Post# 1048304 , Reply# 18   10/21/2019 at 10:27 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Nice washer

ozzie908's profile picture
I have the same machine but with out the WIFI connection did not see the point as at home when ever I use the machine.
What a lovely wash cycle its quiet efficient and does what you want.
It spins brilliant too it makes my heat pump dryer much faster and the spin although the same as my old Miele seems to be able to remove more water as I notice I hardly have to empty the drawer in the dryer.
Over all I am completely satisfied with the washer and what it cost. And for getting a free 5 year warranty not used the capsules that came with it and highly doubt I will.

Austin


Post# 1048339 , Reply# 19   10/21/2019 at 17:02 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

This are good washers. One option I really like is the ability to get a higher level rinse if you go into the settings and turn it on. I don't use it for every wash, but it is nice to have for when you are washing comforters, very large loads or like me for some loads like undergarments since I have had alergic reactions to some detergents.

Henrik if you have this option give it a try and see what you think.


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Post# 1048423 , Reply# 20   10/22/2019 at 12:25 by henene4 (Germany)        
This is gonna be a long one

So, played around a bit.



First, setup:

I deselected ALL audible signals, hooked it up to my WiFi, activated the cool down, set the Water Plus so it only adds a rinse.

Service cycle and programming mode is entered by having the machine on, the door open, then holding Start/Pause, closing the door, waiting till the flashing ends, button presses as on previous models, holding till solid and releasing immediatley.

Just activated the balance sensor so far (default for out of balance sensing was "tacho" and I switched it to "tacho + sensor"), but I'll try to see what changing the Recirc settings do (there is a "Recirc without fault display", "on" and "off" option with the first one being my default).
Could up temperatures as well and deactivate the guided energy usage, but I'm happy with th results in the default mode so far.





Actually, I ran the first cyclce before leaving and watched the initial stages.

Small load of kitchen towel stuff.
Some powdered detergent on Cottons 60C SingleWash with "Stains" selected as option.
Time was 1:29h and the mainwash and results were amazing and usage was like 5l per fill.



Next, sunday after returning I ran my usual large loads of a pair of jeans, 4 pairs of sweat pants and 4 sweat jackets on a Cottons 40C cycle with "Extra Dellicate" selected.

The option overrid the option for a PowerWash 2.0 cycle, but load size would have ment a normal wash cycle anyway.
Fun fact there: If it fills via the door first, it is a normal cycle; if the detergent dispenser is flushed immediatley, it uses a PW2.0 cycle or a modification of that (SingleWash).

The load was about what would be "proper loading ettiquette" for a drum this size, so not tightly packed.
Saturation was done in less then 5min.

Then a short heating burst was carried out before doing the 2 PowerWash Spin and Spray cycles.

Then heating commenced and heated to target temp in a 2 stage pattern with a short pause inbetween.

The Extra Delicate option basicly steps down the main wash rhythm one notch (Rhythm "A" "Intensive" turns into "B" "Normal") and maybe alters the spin (can't say yet, haven't seen a true final spin on cottons yet).

Interim spins were pretty fuzzles and thorough.

Rinses were all the same, all aboout 5 min long, all the same water usage.
Final usage was 0.8kWh and 72 or 74l of water.

Final spin was interesting though.
It did 2 bursts with a long anti crease after the second burst.
It started the final spin sequence at 27min left, started it final burst at 16min or so left.
That final spin stepped up to over a few minutes, then hit 1600rpm for the first time at 12min left, held it for one minute, slowed down considerably (maybe 800rpm) for a minute, and repeated that cycling 2 more times.
Did a LONG fluff tumble as well (like 7min) so I suspect the Extra Delicate changed that as well.

Results were nice.



Ran a New Items with SingleWash at 40 as well.

Load was 3 new white TShirts with some liquid detergent for whites.

Wash action was the handwash rhythm for some reason and cycle was only 30min total, so not gonna use that again.



Over night I ran an Eco 60C cottons cycle with the Aqua fabric softner cap and a half load of a small set of bedding and 2 towels I used during my weekend away.

Can't say much about that except super efficent, everything felt nicedry and clean and that I don't really like Mieles fabric softener smell.




Monday I ran my first observed PowerWash 2.0 load.

Load was my micofibre bath items (2 bath mats of different size, my supper plushy bathrobe and a towel I have made of the same material as the bathrobe).

Cycle was Easy Care 60C with Water Plus selected. Detergent some powdered colors stuff.

I used this cycle specificly to check one of my hopes/sorrows about these machines:
The manual states that selecting Water Plus will cancel PW2.0 and run a normal cycle instead.
I was fearing that programming the Water Plus button to add a rinse would do that still.
I didn't spend that much money to waste water and energy needlessly.

Luckily, in that specific configuration, PW2.0 is executed just normal.

Machine filled with 2l of water first, did its first spin with the short sense burst up.
Refilled with another 2l of water, then did 4 or 5 more spin bursts with the spray on.
Load looked damp everywhere, but not wet.

Machine drained, filled with another 2l and started heating.
So in total, it had to heat 6l of water to 60C.

Machine heated in pulses for a good 30min and the door got pretty warm.
Main Wash ran for another 40min or so after heating ended without adding more water.
During those 40min it regularly tried to recirculate water, but there just wasn't enough in the tub.
Until now the machine used a pretty quick rhythm. Not the intensive, pretty much just the steam smoothing rhythm.

At basicly 1h left flat it added more water for the dilution part of the wash.
After that fill finsihed (filled once, then added some again) there was a usage of 14l, everything was dripping wet and the water level was low but enough.
Agitated for like 8min or so on the "B" rhythm, then inexplicably went down to the delicate rhythm for the last 10min.

Drain, proper high interim spins and 3 rinses and a 10min final spin sequence later, I had perfectly clean, perfectly rinsed and perfectly fluffy laundy.
And it only used 0.5kWh! (But 70 odd liters of water due to the high absorbtion and the additional rinse.)



Next I ran some seat cushins through a pillows cycle.

Couldn't watch that, but results were as expected.



The covers for those cushions I ran through a box standard Delicates 40C cycle which appeared to try to run as a PW2.0 cycle.
Which is weired, as only the most recent machines list Delicates as a PW2.0 cycle in their manuals.
Couldn't sense the load though as I overdosed on the detergent compared to the 2l of water it tried to use to saturate the load which caused a huge suds lock during that first spin and spray which canceld any further sensing and just ran a normal but thorough Delicates 40C cycle which still only used like 50l and 0.5kWh.



Ran some other rubber backed bath mats through a Sports cycle which (didn't watch much but some) appeared to be somewhat simmilar to the delicate cycle, just with lower water levels.


Today I ran an Outdoor and Wterproofing cycle which both performed as expected.
Waterproofing is one of the few cycles that do NOT light the PowerWash icon as it's only a glorified heated rinse.
Same goes for Rinse and the spin only cycle.

Currently runnign a Curtains cycle with Water Plus, Prewash and Preironing.
Preironing adds 30min on any cycle I saw.
Cycle used pretty low water levels but decent agitation.
Let's see what the results of the ironing stage are.





Overall this is just such a refined version of what I was used from the Novotronic and Softtronic ranges.

Spins are still no fuzz, but it certainly knows when it is better to just redistribute quickly.
Spins are so much better in terms of layout. No signs of water or suds locking, ever.

I so missed the high tumbling arcs that I somehow only associate with Miele.
Laundry finaly TUMBLES again, not just "tumbles".

And even though this thing is efficent, it isn't stingy with water usage. It knows when to use more water.
But it more so knows HOW to use water.
Like, not just DUMPING more water in during refills, but sipping liter by liter.

It's just such a grown up, still verry simple, yet so sofisticated machine so far.



Only thing: The remote control features SUCKS to set up and SUCKS to programm cycles.
It would just change options on me.
But it nicely reports all the most importatnt stats.




Will be running some more stuff during this week as my days allow.




Ask any questions you would like to ask, I'll post some pictures once I have my phone in my hands.


Post# 1048424 , Reply# 21   10/22/2019 at 12:28 by henene4 (Germany)        
Here some pics



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Post# 1048556 , Reply# 22   10/23/2019 at 16:31 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Very impressive...so much detail!
I'm blown away by how much detail and customization Meile allows on their machines.
I was talking with another washer wonk recently how our American machines seem to be de-contenting features and displays and technical information. In exchange for more "bells and whistles."
On many American appliances, especially dishwashers, a time or cycle progress indicator aren't even offered anymore.
Many washer/dryer marketing materials and website omit whole technical explanations and descriptions.
Whirlpool's new washer line doesn't even mention anything about a balance or suspension system anymore, wether the machine has balance rings or not.
HECK, they don't really even specify belt or direct drive anymore.
Dishwashers don't really explain all the characteristics of individual cycles anymore.
LG seems to at least still be explaining some tech features.....but it's a lot less than it used to be, across the board.
Now, it seems, if I want to learn about tech specs today, I have to dig and hunt around on replacement part sites, or pour through patent documents.

Alas, well wishes on this really awesome washer.


Post# 1048607 , Reply# 23   10/23/2019 at 20:14 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

Is no water level control on agitator toploaders (SQ Classic, WP/MT "commercial" model and others) except 1/2 or maximum considered as a bell or a whistle?


Post# 1048625 , Reply# 24   10/24/2019 at 06:00 by Rolls_rapide (0)        
Reply #22...

I thoroughly agree on all points.

Regarding the product brochures (or lack of), I was discussing this with someone recently. I find it incredibly awkward to get any sensible information from manufacturers these days, and as you say, you now have to pore through technical data/service data/patents in order to see how something works. Everything is so 'cloak and dagger' these days.

With the old brochures you could see which range of machines had certain features, and the Specifications Table at the back, detailed everything in plain sight. Simples. They even used to mention if the appliance white paint was slightly different to their normal white paint (e.g. Hotpoint, with their Bosch sourced dishwashers).

With the online system, I get so bloody frustrated with only being able to compare three machines at one time!

Manufacturers don't like to inform their customers anymore of how something works - but they do like to hard sell their 'app' functionality.

Regarding Henrik's Miele:

I was wondering what the rationale is with the machine taking water in, to wet the load, then to drain it again? It seems a waste of water. Any other machine takes in a minimum amount of water, then if absorbed, takes in some more. And the 'struggling to recirculate' would cause me to pour jugfuls of water to compensate.

I am curious as to whether any washing machine - these days - uses a 'flow meter' to measure precise water intake (as modern dishwashers do), rather than the usual bog-standard pressure vessel system?



Post# 1048633 , Reply# 25   10/24/2019 at 08:22 by henene4 (Germany)        
@Rolls_rapide

That's PowerWash 2.0 for you.



You see, the most inefficent part about EU washers is heating up the water.

You reduce the usage for heating water by reducing the amount of water in need of heating up.

And, to be frank, manufacturers have optimised those amounts of water for traditional washes to the extreme.
You can't really just drop the water level any more without causing other issues.




So, Miele took a verry interesting approach to the entire thing, not unlike the Fisher&Paykel EcoActive system:

The idea is that you first heat up the minimum amount of water, let that do the chemical action, then dilute out and dissolve away the already loosend dirt.

So, instead of doing chemical action and dilution in one step with one water level needing to heat up the enitre amount of water needed for diution, you split dissolving of dirt by chemical action and diluting it away into 2 wash stages.




On these machines, this works as follows:

At first, the machine flushes in detergent with a minimal amount of detergent (2L in most cases).

Then, it switches on the recirculation and does its first spin up.
During that it measures the weight of the laundy.
If the laundry weight is in spec (somewhat less than a full load by weight), it decides for a PowerWash 2.0 cycle.




With that, the Spin&Spray procedure starts.

For that, it repeats these steps several times (5-10 times, depending on load size):

1. Fill: It adjusts the water level, usually in 2-3 liter steps, as necessary.
2. Slow tumbles: About 2 in each direction without recirculation.
3. Spin: Recirculation switches on, washers spins up to about 600rpm, slows down and just before stopping cuts off the recirculation.

This procedure spreads the highly concentrated detergent solution evenly about the load.

At the end of this, the laundry is damp to wet, evenly, but not dripping.
Now, while tumbling slowly, the recirc is switched on one last time to dump the water from the sump onto the load.

For example, for a load of a weeks worth of socks, TShirts and underwear (about 10 pounds or so), it needed 8L for this.



Now, the first part of the mainwash starts: Heating and agitation.

The washer now switches on the drain pump for about 30sec to get the sump to a known level.
Technicly it drains, but haven't heared it drainig away much if any anytime I watched this stage so far.

Then it fills with a metered amount of water (2l; so 10l total in my example) that is just enough to cover the heating element, but not to reach the tub.
(It checks its level switch for a correct reading to ensure the water does cover the heater but does not reach the tub.)

Now it heats that little amount of water to boiling.

The steam heats tub and laundry and thus, detergent gets activated.

This heating takes not verry long, like 20min or so with the heater pulsing on and off.
After that, the load just tumbles, gets agitated, and once the sump water temperature drops enough, it tries to recirculate once in a while, but dosen't manage to because the level is to low.



After a usual main wash time, the second stage happens: Dilution.

Now the washer fills to a normal wash water level (for the load in case that was to 15l total).
And washes along for like 20min like a normal cycle with recirculation but does not heat anymore.

Then drains and rinses as usual.




That first stage activates enzymes and bleach in the detergent.
Everything gets dissolved into the tiny amount of water in the load.

The second stage dilutes the dissolved dirt and water out of the load so it can be drained away.

The result: My example load washed just as clean and rinsed just as well as in a normal washer, but yet didn't use more than 600Wh (and 76l of water total for 4 rinses plus wash).




To take Mieles data on that:

For a machine of the same generation and the same max load, usage data is as follows comparing conventional vs. PowerWash 2.0:

For a half load on the 40C Eco cycle, both use 39l of water, yet one uses 530Wh, the PW2.0 only uses 340Wh.

On an full load of Cottons at 60C, both machines use 1350Wh.
On a partial load, the conventional system uses 1150Wh, the PowerWash2.0 uses only 1000Wh.

On some other cycles (for example, a normal half load on Cottons 40C), there is no labeled difference.

Yet on Automatic Plus, for a 6kg load at 40C (which will run the PW2.0 course, so that seems to be about the upper level), the difference is 800Wh vs 600Wh, so 25% savings, while takeing the same time, giving the same results and using the exact same amount of water.




This post was last edited 10/24/2019 at 09:26
Post# 1048636 , Reply# 26   10/24/2019 at 09:24 by henene4 (Germany)        
On the topic of metered fills

This machine uses both, a water level sensor and a water flow meter.

Some dishwashers abandoned water level sensors per se and just use volumetric flow meters in conjunction with a sensor pump (electronic control meters pump data to know whether it cavitates or not).

You generally find flow meters on midlevel and up machines.



On washers, flow meters allow more specific load sensing as you know the absolute amount of water in the system, not just the displacement which would include the volume of laundry submerged in the water.

Further it allows such neat tricks like explained above.

In combination with weight based sensing (for example by monitoring motor data) it allows for super exact rinsing in theory.
Only time I've ever seen that was on Panasonics last generation of washers sold over here on their Automatic cycles.

And actually, flow meters are verry simple and cheap devices by todays standards as well.
Just a magnet on a wheel in the flow passing by a reed switch and the PCB counts the pulses.


Post# 1048650 , Reply# 27   10/24/2019 at 10:29 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        
Power Wash 2

I donít totally understand Powerwash 2.0 but perhaps Henrick can explain it more. I donít think it takes in water, then pumps it out. Instead, I think it takes in enough water to wet the clothes, then spins that water out into the bottom of the drum and heats it. In the EU it is taking a cold fill. In the US you can choose cold or hot water fills.

I donít think the North American W1 uses powerwash 2. In fact, there is no mention of powerwash. Instead, it uses what would be powerwash 1.0 in a program cycle named QuickIntenseWash. For this cycle, the machine takes a bit more water in the wash than normal, then starts spinning the clothes and the water and then sprays them. It continues this for the entire wash(it does pause and reverse the tumble) and each rinse, however, the spray wonít start for the wash until the water reaches temperature. I donít think heating water is the prime focus like in powerwash 2.

Most program cycles on the machine will use this spin spray technique but not for the entire wash. Instead, the spin/spray is one of the tumbling rhythms used during the wash.


Post# 1048664 , Reply# 28   10/24/2019 at 13:40 by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
At least the European programming does indeed drain out "excess" water - at least under certain circumstances. The advantage is that the energy consumption is low, yet the laundry is heated to the set temp, while all other washers don't reach the target on the Eco/ Energy Label cycle.

Also: my Duet has a flow meter.


Post# 1048665 , Reply# 29   10/24/2019 at 14:23 by henene4 (Germany)        
Logixx

What I found with my software version at least is that the machine appears to try to avoid draining out water by ending the saturation phase with a slow tumble in either direction with the recirc on and not spinning after that before starting the drain.

Thus most detergent and water go onto the clothes and spread about during the wash phase.


Post# 1048672 , Reply# 30   10/24/2019 at 15:37 by Rolls_rapide (0)        

Thanks Henrik, for the concise explanation.

Regarding the Automatic EcoNavi Panasonics: there is some degree of sensing (I have one) - but it isn't infallible. During the summer, I washed a small load of a pair of Craghopper shorts, a couple of t-shirts, a few underpants, and pyjama shorts.

The stupid machine, which I fully expected to default to 1hr 18 and less, gave a single half-arsed weighing spin (usually does three) and then said 2hrs 45!

I pounced on the machine and cancelled it, and reset it. It then behaved normally. Bloody Fuzzy Logic! Never had half this problem in the olden days.


Post# 1048773 , Reply# 31   10/25/2019 at 16:28 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

Henrik and others in the EU:

Can you give us an explanation of what and how Powerwash 2.0 works? I understand the first version of Powerwash and my W1 uses that. I've seen the Powerwash 2 term, and have watched videos of it but have no idea what I am seeing or why it is being done. Why is it good to use?


Post# 1048855 , Reply# 32   10/26/2019 at 02:40 by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Have you seen this video?






Post# 1048869 , Reply# 33   10/26/2019 at 06:27 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

Thanks for that video. I had not seen that vid before, and that helps explain what it does.
So in the USA our W1 machines spin and spray but I am not sure about that heating method. Most of us are supplying our own hot water to the machine so maybe it might do this on the 140F or 60C temperature setting but I don't know if it is even necessary on a 104F warm wash.

Thanks again.


Post# 1049224 , Reply# 34   10/29/2019 at 06:34 by henene4 (Germany)        
After a few weeks

So far, I am mostly impressed.



I was somewhat indifferent about how much I'd like PowerWash 2.0, but so far with a few exceptions I just can't for the love of it tell a difference.

I can get the number of rinses I want, get the same results, reach set temp (at least close enough) yet save 20% of energy or more on any load equal or less than about 6kg (13-14 pounds).

And when ever I don't need or want it, I just set one of the options under "Extras" and get a normal wash cycle.
That's a good idea for verry heavy soils or special loads like blankets and such.



I tried some SingleWash cycles and they are a little disappointing.

You have to be incredibly stingy with detergent, rinsing is somewhat cut short, the wash action is inexplicably reduced on any cycle I tried so far.

Yeah, gotta have to do some more trial and error with that.



QuickPowerWash is a nice and decent cycle.

The settings avaible are weired.
You can select or deselect Quick (with Quick is the default, without it lengthens from 59min to 1:15h).
Without "Quick" you can't select anything (don't even think that Preironing is avaible).
With Quick you can select SingleWash.
If you select SingleWash all of the sudden you can select some of the "Extras".
Guess that's because that SingleWash is just Cottons SingleWash.
Except on Cottons SingleWash with Stains, you get a 1:29h cycle, on QuickPowerWash, the same cycle does not change wash time.

Anyway, only tried the longer version at 40C so far and it was decent. Rinsing is certainly its weak point, but for most applications it is perfectly fine.




Pre-Ironing is a fun option.

It does really heat up the load, and it really smooths out wrinkels.

Only thing is that 30min is somewhat lengthy.




I had the machine glitch a couple of times already.

Ran a Cottons 90C with Intensive and an extra rinse and loaded that with (yeah, not kidding) my pillow, my 160cm*200cm matress cover and my neck roll.
Thing is that load absorbed north of 35l of water but dropped out a lot once heated.
Had set a cool down.
Machine was supposed to run 3 rinses.
But because max fill was reached already I would assume, it skipped the cool down and drain and ran the first rinse with the main wash water and thus only did 2 rinses effectivley.

MobileControl is glitchy AF.
Just resets cycle selections as it wants, just a PITA.

When ever your machine is on you can not check for software updates in your app.

At some points during some cycles the motor control gets activated for no apparent reason.
It just jerks into one direction a couple of times, as if the PCB is somewhat absent midedly tapping a button.

When you cancel a cycle, sometimes the door stays locked while the water diverter switches back to its default door flush position.
Like why?

When a cycle ends on the "Further Programms" setting, you sometimes have to turn the washer off to select a new cycle.



One interesting thing:

The "off" position on the dial is NOT a physical power switch.

On certain settings in the service cycle you have to move the dial to its "off" postion and the machine just stays on.


Post# 1049432 , Reply# 35   10/30/2019 at 16:24 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

I don't have your exact model of W1 so I can't really comment on the glitches you experienced.
On my model, Single Wash is for loads of less than 4.5 pounds and yes it is for cottons or the Normal program wash. It takes about 33 minutes, 1 wash 2 rinses, but you can add an extra rinse.

I also have an Express program cycle that takes 30 minutes, 20 if you set the soil indicator to light. With this one, you cannot add an extra rinse I guess because it is supposed to be a faster one, but it can wash up to 8 pounds. Between both of these, you have options to run smaller loads quicker than if you used other program cycles. If I use Express I will usually have the max rinse setting turned on so I get a higher fill rinse to make up for the lack of an extra rinse. I don't have a problem with getting out of more programs, but that seems to be one of the glitches you have.

I use the pre-ironing option for dress shirts and pants and it too takes 30 minutes, but sometimes I add it to the Express cycle and end up with a 1-hour duration which isn't too bad.

No quick option on my machine. You get to select Express or SingleWash and some programs will decrease in time if you select light soil but the time decrease depends on what program cycle you are running. Some of them only fall 4 minutes, others like Express will decrease by 10. I think with mine the soil level is really controlling the amount of detergent that gets dispensed and the rinsing level. More detergent = more water in the rinses.

I have the machine connected to my Wifi network and don't have much success starting a program through my phone app, but on the plus side, If you start the app while the machine is already running in a program cycle, you will see the progress the machine is making in the program you started and you will get a notification when the load is finished. Interesting to see the water and electric consumption increase in real-time as the machine moves through the washes and rinses.


Post# 1053220 , Reply# 36   12/5/2019 at 09:30 by henene4 (Germany)        
A few months in

And I am still impressed, really.

Again, not perfect by any means, but WAY ahead of ANYTHING I ever used.




Usage data is still amazing to me.

I never deactivated guided energy usage as it disables PowerWash 2.0 entirely and I never had much concerns with cleaning on my day to day loads.

If do not want to use PW2.0 I just select any option under the "Extras" sub menu and get a normal fill wash anyway.

Also kept Water+ set to only rinse plus as I never really saw the reason for the elevated water levels.

And no matter what I wash, results are perfectly good.



Spinning is still one of its strong points.

Spun every time, never noticed a speed reduction.

And - what I just realized a few weeks ago - it actually has load size dependent interim spins.
No joke, it just pulls up with barely any stepping inbetween on small loads, on large loads it spins more gradually.




So, to mark this thread as closed, I can just say that I am perfectly happy with the choice I made!


Post# 1053223 , Reply# 37   12/5/2019 at 10:01 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
@henene4

ozzie908's profile picture
I have to agree with you it really is a great washing machine and after reading your very complete list of what it does and when I have started using the cottons 60c the one that heats to the set temp, and using the intensive option and that makes a lot of difference to the wash rhythm as you say every thing comes out clean and whites are back to dazzling like they used to be.

I am still toying with getting the matching heat pump dryer as I have noticed my AEG 7kg dryer is taking forever to dry the loads the Miele washes its also creasing things up and taking me longer to iron soooooo I may treat myself in the new year :)

Austin





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