Thread Number: 80853  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Bleach Detergent?
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Post# 1048469   10/22/2019 at 20:54 (1,591 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Is there any dishwasher detergent that has bleach in it? A lot of my clear plastic Rubbermaid containers have spaghetti sauce stains. Same thing with my water bottle straws. Thanks!




Post# 1048478 , Reply# 1   10/22/2019 at 22:18 (1,591 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

Cascade Institutional powder is one, which is now labeled as Cascade Fryer Boil Out.

dishwasher detergent with bleach

Cascade Fryer Boil Out


Post# 1048484 , Reply# 2   10/22/2019 at 23:29 (1,591 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio)        
Procter & Gamble

offered a plastics de-staining agent that had lotsa, lotsa hydrogen peroxide for this very matter. It was packaged in a red and white tube, and it was sold for about 35 seconds a number of years back. It was good stuff. Probably why they pulled it.

Lawrence/Maytagbear



Post# 1048485 , Reply# 3   10/22/2019 at 23:40 (1,591 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, Thereīs a Lady on Stage)        
Unless things have changed

launderess's profile picture
Finish gel and powder dw detergent are still chlorine based.

Usually but not always anything marked "institutional" is old school chlorine based dw detergent (with or without phosphates).

If you cannot find something in local shops, try any restaurant, institutional, commercial supply house. You may have to buy a rather huge tub of the stuff, but there you are then.

IIRC Ecolab sells "Finish" institutional dw detergent.

www.hpproducts.com/ItemDi...


Post# 1048499 , Reply# 4   10/23/2019 at 05:01 (1,590 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
An idea

mark_wpduet's profile picture
that was recommended by someone else on this forum. When you're ready to run your machine with dirty dishes, put your detergent in the main detergent cup......close it and pour like a shot glass of liquid bleach on the dishwasher door, close it up, start it. I'm not sure what kind of regular dish machine detergent you use, but it shouldn't be affected by the bleach since it will be mostly rinsed away in the first water purge. I've been doing this for a LONG time now and it I use Finish powerball detergent, which has enzymes.....the machine smells santized and dishes are really clean. No tomato stains......I don't pre-rinse. OR....... You could be a bottle of chlorine-based detergent, pour a little in the prewash so that will give enough bleach action in the prewash to get those stains off.....but I like the regular bleach better. I think it keeps the inside of the dishwasher cleaner as well.

Post# 1048507 , Reply# 5   10/23/2019 at 08:47 (1,590 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Thanks Y'all!

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
I found some finish powder on Amazon! They don't sell it at my local stores. I hope they aren't phasing it out. I also might try the shot of bleach on the door in the meantime. I think putting it on the door will be key, because my Bosch does a purge before it starts the first fill. So are we talking about 1 ounce?

Post# 1048512 , Reply# 6   10/23/2019 at 09:10 (1,590 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        

combo52's profile picture
I use Aldi liquid in the first cup of our DW, this detergent has liquid has bleach in it and is very reasonable in cost.

John L.


Post# 1048630 , Reply# 7   10/24/2019 at 07:20 (1,589 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
doesn't matter

mark_wpduet's profile picture
just eyeball it....just pour a little on the door. I'm guestimating about a shot glass worth. Although, I didn't realize your machine purged before it starts to fill. My Maytag doesn't do that. It just starts to fill for the prewash, then purges. You will smell the bleach while it's running. A little LBC goes a LONG way.

Post# 1048643 , Reply# 8   10/24/2019 at 10:03 (1,589 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        

iheartmaytag's profile picture

It kind of defeats the "automatic" part of the automatic cycle, but you won't do if too often.

Wait until after the main wash drains and then open the door and pour in a shot glass (1oz) or so of LCB, then resume the cycle. 

 

This way you get the bleaching action, you don't have to worry about it interfering with the detergent's enzymes and in the process you get some disinfection action from the bleach.

 

Another thing you can do is place stained plastic ware out in the sun on a sunny day.  I sometimes set a few pieces on the picnic table if the wind isn't too bad, we're talking Kansas here.  The UV rays will naturally bleach out the red stains.


Post# 1048716 , Reply# 9   10/24/2019 at 21:54 (1,589 days old) by Helicaldrive (St. Louis)        
Fascinating idea

Mark and I heart!

Also, I use Finish powder. Per the label it has enzymes. When I got my Maytag DW a couple years ago, I used to use Cascade powder. It started etching the glasses. A friendís Mom said use Finish - itís easier on dishes AND gets them cleaner. She was right. It gets them perfectly clean and shiny. Then I remembered the installer said the same thing.

I donít use pods. I have a water softener, so I presume the pods are a major overdose and would dull and etch the dishes. Even without a softener Iíd be afraid of that. When I was growing up we filled the Kitchen Aid detergent cups all the way and in time the dishes were completely dulled and ruined. And they would have swirl marks on them too from the water flow. Using flatware to eat was like scratching fingernails on a chalkboard. So in my adult life Iíve always dosed just enough powder to get the dishes clean and no more. And my dishes have never gotten dull.


Post# 1048737 , Reply# 10   10/25/2019 at 08:11 (1,588 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Ya

mark_wpduet's profile picture
Back a few years ago when they took phosphates out of DW detergent people were having a hard time with the new stuff, but Finish powerball seemed to get good reviews. I Love it. That's all I buy from Cosco (the big container) and I have moderately hard city water with no water softener. I can understand those that have a softener might not be able to use the tabs. Someone on this forum said a long time ago to pour a little bleach on the door before starting the load. The first time I did it you could tell when the machine had finished and you opened that door everything just smelled cleaned and disinfected. And with just a LITTLE BIT of bleach. Been doing it ever since. Once I had a sample of Finish Quantum. I didn't like it because it foamed WAY too much. Cleaned well, but foamed too much. I felt like it was way too hard on the dishwasher as you could hear it struggling through the foam.

Post# 1048746 , Reply# 11   10/25/2019 at 10:59 (1,588 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Sanitizer tablets

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Not sure if you can get any sanitiser tablets I buy them from a cleaning company and you put 2 on the door they dissolve in the prewash and the main wash uses the pod it works as I have no more tomato stains on any plastic ware its been a problem here for some time ever since the ingredients in the pods changed.

Austin


Post# 1048772 , Reply# 12   10/25/2019 at 16:11 (1,588 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
Regular Finish Powder

I have been using regular Finish Powder which I also bought from Amazon. For some years now this regular formula contains enzymes so the chlorine bleach has been removed. The enzymes actually clean better, but I don't know about how it will do with heavy doses of tomato stain. It will clean the stain for me if I wash it within two days, but set in stain- I don't know. Maybe try Finish Quantum which is stronger than the powder.

Post# 1048776 , Reply# 13   10/25/2019 at 16:52 (1,588 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Thanks

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Thanks for the update on finish powder. I have quantum right now. It removes food no problem, but plastic gets stained if washed wilth spaghetti dishes.

Thanks for the recommendation of the Aldi brand gel as a prewash.

What Powerball tabs do you use? Deep Cleen or Max In One?


Post# 1048783 , Reply# 14   10/25/2019 at 18:55 (1,588 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
dishwasher soap

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IIIJohnnyMacIII do not know if this will help you but found this on amazon www.amazon.ca/-/fr/Cascad...é’—&crid=2NLNJSJXO14DW&keywords=cascade+dishwasher+soap&qid=1572047609&sprefix=casacade+dishwasher+%2Caps%2C142&sr=8-48

CLICK HERE TO GO TO pierreandreply4's LINK


Post# 1048785 , Reply# 15   10/25/2019 at 19:04 (1,588 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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Palmolove Eco has chlorine in it.  My mother and I both use it in our KUDI23's


Post# 1048879 , Reply# 16   10/26/2019 at 09:16 (1,587 days old) by Helicaldrive (St. Louis)        
Just reminded me

Several people I work with commented that they prefer to wash their dishes by hand, and they always put a little splash of LCB in the dishpan to prevent salmonella, colds and flu from spreading through the house.

Sounds like a great idea.

But I never got around to asking if their clothes get bleached/ruined every time they splash water on themselves.


Post# 1048880 , Reply# 17   10/26/2019 at 09:21 (1,587 days old) by Helicaldrive (St. Louis)        
AND why donít I just ask others?

Do the modern dishwasher pacs dull dishes like the powder did in the day?

Does it make a difference if you have a water softener?

If itís no longer an issue, Iíd love to know because the pacs would be so much easier to use. But I just donít feel like ruining my stuff experimenting.

So, what say you?


Post# 1048881 , Reply# 18   10/26/2019 at 09:27 (1,587 days old) by Helicaldrive (St. Louis)        
And yes, Mark

I tried Finish Quantum once and same thing ó it foamed up, the D/W struggled with sudslock, and there was no spray action going on.

Post# 1048891 , Reply# 19   10/26/2019 at 11:17 (1,587 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

Tried Cascade Platinum pacs (still have a couple left), same effect, excess foaming.† Using those pacs is the only time in 16 years I've heard my DishDrawer add more water a few mins into the cycle to compensate for the water-turned-to-foam (it determines that by monitoring the load on the pump).


Post# 1048896 , Reply# 20   10/26/2019 at 14:48 (1,587 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        

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I had been using Cascade Complete pacs without issue but then the last batch I got was really foamy, much like the pictures and complaints here.

 

It's very annoying...P&G wants people to be brand loyal, but they seem to have forgotten the reason people are brand loyal is because they are expecting the product to work and smell the same way each time.

 

If you want a surprise you might as well buy whatever is on sale.


Post# 1048960 , Reply# 21   10/27/2019 at 06:37 (1,586 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

The ONLY pacs/tabs I can use in my KUDI23 are Miele and Finish powerball with the hard red ball in the middle.  EVERY other kind foams up too much with our water softener.  The finish tabs don't etch as bad as the powder years ago but still will do it over time.  I'd be hesitant in one of the new minimal water dishwashers because the detergent would be more concentrated with the smaller amount of water used. 


Post# 1048963 , Reply# 22   10/27/2019 at 07:09 (1,586 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
US Finish Powder

There is bleach in it, but it is the oxygen bleach version (Sodium Percarbonate and the TAED activator).

INGREDIENT
Sodium Sulfate
Sodium Carbonate
Sodium Citrate
Water/Eau
Sodium Silicate
Sodium Percarbonate
Alcohols Ethoxylate
Polyacrylic Acid Sodium Bisulfite Terminated
TAED
Fragrance/Parfum
Amylase Enzyme
Protease Enzyme



FINISH Quantum tabs 'Ultimate Clean & Shine':

This has Sodium Percarbonate bleach + the TAED activator + the Manganese bleach activator. So, superior bleaching with this one.

INGREDIENT
Sodium Carbonate
Sodium Citrate
C12-15 Alcohols Ethoxylated Propoxylated
Sodium Bicarbonate
Sodium Percarbonate
TAED
Polyvinyl Alcohol
Ethylene/propylene oxide copolymer
Polyacrylic Acid Sodium Bisulfite Terminated
Alcohol polyglycolether
Protease Enzyme
(1-Hydroxyethylidene)bisphosphonic acid, sodium salt
Amylase Enzyme
Fragrance/Parfum
Manganese Catalyst
d-Limonene
modified anthraquinone dye
Liquitint Red



And regarding chlorine bleach content, only the older-style blue bottle of Finish has it. But no enzymes, as chlorine bleach and enzymes do not work together. The smaller arty-farty Finish 'Max-in-1 Concentrated Gel' has enzymes - but NO type of bleach whatsoever!


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Rolls_rapide's LINK


Post# 1048975 , Reply# 23   10/27/2019 at 10:11 (1,586 days old) by Helicaldrive (St. Louis)        
Thanks to all

For the answers, especially askolover.

Post# 1049025 , Reply# 24   10/27/2019 at 16:50 (1,586 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Tried Palmolive Eco

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Wasn't successful at removing the stains with Palmolive Eco. However, the detergent washed my dishes flawlessly, left no film or cloudiness, and with the cost I could wash my dishes for about $3/month!

These stains have been on my dishes for a while now, so I think I'm going to take the things that are already stained and soak them in a bleach solution and use the Palmolive Eco to see if it will keep things from staining from now on.

Thanks for the recommendations!


Post# 1049659 , Reply# 25   11/1/2019 at 23:45 (1,581 days old) by Deborah (Colorado)        
STPP - Sodium Tripolyphosphate

I throw some STPP in my dishwasher, as it is supposed to be the phosphate that was dropped from washing machine detergents, so I figured it would help in dishwashers as well. Do you think it works as well as the Cascade Fryer Boil Out? I'm thinking of trying the Fryer Boil Out, but unless it's better than the STPP why bother?

Please advise me. Thanks!

Deborah


Post# 1050005 , Reply# 26   11/5/2019 at 07:55 (1,577 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Regarding Reply #22...

I decided to take some of my own advice, and bought a bag of the 'Finish Quantum Ultimate Clean & Shine' (those floppy, three-chambered things, that look like sweets). Used on the 'Auto Super Wash' programme, in the Bosch.

The result?

Whilst the plates, pots, Pyrex and cutlery generally look clean, mugs still have tea stains!

I can't believe it. This is supposed to be their top detergent, with the Manganese Catalyst to allow superior stain removal.

Perhaps they had some sort of production fault, where the bleach or activator or catalyst wasn't added to the mixture?

Nevertheless, I've had much better results with Lidl's W5 'standard' tablets - and I am quite irritated by that fact.


Post# 1050067 , Reply# 27   11/5/2019 at 22:41 (1,577 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Rolls Rapide. Thatís exactly what Iím using - The new style Quantum max. And like you it cleans food off completely, but leaves stains. The older style quantum max worked wonders with stains. I might pick some up from amazon, but itís more expensive.

Post# 1050096 , Reply# 28   11/6/2019 at 14:11 (1,576 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        

I had a look on Amazon UK's site. Other folk have also commented about Finish Quantum Ultimate's less-than-impressive tea stain removal.

It makes you wonder exactly what Reckitt Benckiser are doing with their laboratories...


Post# 1050214 , Reply# 29   11/7/2019 at 19:28 (1,575 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

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It's been my impression over the years that chlorine bleach should not be used in Bosch dishwashers, due to the potential for corrosion of stainless steel from free chlorine. However my Bosch SHU43C user manual doesn't mention anything other than use a detergent designed for automatic dishwashers (no hand wash detergents).

 

Even so, I've never used chlorine in my Bosch and probably never will.

 

Bosch recommends using Finish Tabs, either Powerball or Quantum. The linked page says the Quantum product includes a bleach (oxygen). However, the Finish Powerball Max-in-One tabs I've been using contain sodium percarbonate, which is an oxygen bleach.

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"As an oxidizing agent, sodium percarbonate is an ingredient in a number of home and laundry cleaning products, including non-chlorine bleach products such as Oxyper, OxiClean, Tide laundry detergent,[1] and Vanish.[4]

 

"Many commercial products mix a percentage of sodium percarbonate with sodium carbonate. The average percentage of an "Oxy" product in the supermarket is 65% sodium percarbonate and 35% sodium carbonate. The "ultra boosters" seen on infomercials may contain as much as 80% sodium percarbonate. However, sodium percarbonate is less expensive in its pure form[citation needed] and can be adjusted to any percentage the user desires."

 

 

One note: the air gap for the drain line has a cap at the top of the sink. Periodically I check that cap; quite often it has some food debris that is flushed and gets caught in the cap. Simple enough to clear that out. If it gets too clogged the DW won't drain properly. And debris in there is not a sign of DW failure... the "large object filter" at the bottom of the dishwasher is designed to send medium to smaller particles down the drain. The problem is really the design of the air gap, I've modified it slightly to make it less prone to catch debris that the DW filer is designed to pass on through to the drain line, but it still happens. Oh well. It's no biggie to check it before each cycle. I might have to modify it again.

 

PS-Just checked on the chlorine/Bosch question again. Bosch does prohibit the use of chlorine bleach with its Axxis clothes washers. But it does not prohibit its use in its dishwashers.  In fact, at least one Bosch page recommends using a chlorine bleach containing DW detergent if tea stains persist. So there.

 

 



CLICK HERE TO GO TO SudsMaster's LINK

Post# 1050255 , Reply# 30   11/8/2019 at 03:01 (1,574 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
We`ve had stainless steel DWs for as long as I can think of. There have been rare exceptions but plastic tub DWs have always been considered shabby over here and the few that existed vanished sometime in the 1970s I think.
Our DW detergents were highly caustic, mostly water glass, phosphates and loads of chlorine until much milder enzyme based formulas appeared in the 1990s.

The stainless interior usually coped well with the old detergents, it was the dishes that didn`t. Lots of terribly etched glasses, onglaze prints that washed away in no time, and our enameled pots and pans all had a rough surface. That`s my memories and I don`t miss the chlorine based detergents at all.


Post# 1050275 , Reply# 31   11/8/2019 at 09:38 (1,574 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
"I don't miss the chlorine based detergents at all&#

I do miss them. They caused tea and coffee stains to be removed in one wash, and stainless pots, pans etc. looked much brighter. I also suspect that the optical sensor's plastic lenses were kept clearer too.

I will concede that perhaps the old chlorine detergents were a tad harsh on the dishwasher's plastic components. I have memories of the upper and lower baskets losing their plastic coatings, and the wheels on the baskets crumbled to powder (Zanussi/Electrolux). That also happened to the plastic edges of my Bosch's metal fine filter.


Post# 1050280 , Reply# 32   11/8/2019 at 10:30 (1,574 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Honestly, having had a heavy tea drinker in my household, oxygen bleach worked just as well.
I mean the detergent was 30% oxygen bleach, but hey.


As you said, chlorine attacked EVERYTHING.
Including optical sensors etc.
Seals, pumps, no matter.



What most of the EU members underestimate is the lower wash temperatures.

45C vs. 55C vs. 65C are 3 completely different tears of bleaching action.

AND temperatures are no longer really held.
DWs had to reheat less in general once they heated to temp, but they basicly just don't anymore.


Post# 1050327 , Reply# 33   11/8/2019 at 16:57 (1,574 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
"different tiers of bleaching action"

Ah yes! I was reading the other day via Google Translator, Stiftung Warentest's dishwasher detergent report. Or more precisely, the members' comments section.

Folk were querying why Stif.Waren. tested at a temperature of 45įC. Obviously it was to suss out which detergents could handle such a low temperature. Apparently the Manganese Catalyst is supposed to work at low temps, whereas TAED and Sodium Percarbonate require a higher temperature.


"It clearly outperforms tetraacetylethylene-diamine (TAED) in the temperature range below 60 įC. Being a true catalyst, it is used in very low concentrations and saves valuable formulation space.

Features:
Removes tea, coffee and fruit stains at low temperatures.
Supports amylases in starch degradation processes.
Supresses silver tarnishing by oxidation of sulphur-containing food residues.
Very low usage levels: 0.01 Ė 004 %.
Compatible with enzymes and p-free builder systems."


Finish Quantum Ultimate is supposed to have Mn-TACN as the catalyst. This doesn't explain the poor bleaching performance experienced by several users. Perhaps they didn't put enough of it into the formulation?


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Rolls_rapide's LINK


Post# 1050347 , Reply# 34   11/8/2019 at 18:32 (1,574 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        

Mn-TACN is also known as:

Bis(N,N',N''-trimethyl-1,4,7-triazacyclononane)-trioxo-dimanganese (IV) di(hexafluorophosphate)monohydrate.

Apparently it used in 'Fairy All-in-One' and most of the UK Fairy dishwasher pods - but not all.


'Fairy Platinum All-in-One (Original)' supposedly uses/used:

(Acetato)Pentaamminecobalt Dinitrate,

which appears to be a Cobalt catalyst.


Post# 1050780 , Reply# 35   11/12/2019 at 01:07 (1,571 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Palmolive Eco is working

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Just wanted to update that the Palmolive Eco has removed stains from my storage containers. The plastic straws are just too far gone. I even tried soaking them in 1/4 cup bleach and 1/2 gal of water. When that didn't work I tried straight bleach. That didn't even work. Hopefully now the Palmolive will be proactive and keep stains off before they start. I might give the Cascade + Oxi tabs a try in the future. But I'm pretty happy with Palmolive Eco right now.

Post# 1050785 , Reply# 36   11/12/2019 at 03:55 (1,570 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

Glad that worked well for you.  My mother's been using it for years.  I just bought some a couple of weeks ago to have on hand since I use chlorine based powdered detergent primarily.  I just finished off my Cascade fryer boil out...didn't really care for it.  Cascade gel with the power of Clorox has chlorine in it...the powdered version DOES NOT...it's oxygen bleach (which is misleading since it has the Clorox label on it).  I really like this PREMIERE CRE010PL-GR Automatic Dishwasher Detergent,10 lb.that I bought on ebay.


Post# 1050794 , Reply# 37   11/12/2019 at 07:31 (1,570 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
Askolover,

Thanks. I will give the Cascade gel with power of Clorox a try as well. It says that my Walgreens carries it. I will say, without any enzymes the Palmolive Eco definitely rellies more on the power of the spray arms and the heat of the water to lossen debris. I would think this stuff would be perfect for those with KDS and Power Clean Whirlpools!


Post# 1050859 , Reply# 38   11/13/2019 at 02:53 (1,569 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

That's why we still use those types of detergents...Mother and I both have 1994 model KUDI 23's and my Maytag is old school too from 1997.


Post# 1050902 , Reply# 39   11/13/2019 at 16:40 (1,569 days old) by Deborah (Colorado)        
Don't get it.

Why are folks worried about using chlorine bleach in a stainless steel interior dishwasher? We have most of use used chlorine bleach in our stainless steel drum clothes washing machines for many years with no problem. So why would the bleach harm a dishwasher if it's safe in a washing machine?

Post# 1050929 , Reply# 40   11/13/2019 at 20:51 (1,569 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture

Deborah,

 

Bosch specifically warns NOT to use chlorine bleach in its AXXIS  front loader washer.

 

drive.google.com/file/d/0B8OAhHo...

 

On page 13, see the following:

 

"DO NOT use chlorine bleach in this washing machine."

 

While the manual doesn't explain why, I have read in past forum posts here or elsewhere, that it's because the chlorine bleach could damage the washer's heating element.

 

 

 


Post# 1050931 , Reply# 41   11/13/2019 at 20:57 (1,569 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture

Also, chlorine bleach can and has caused pitting corrosion of stainless steel. There's an interesting thread somewhere on the internet I read some years ago, in a craft brew site, of an instance where sterilizing stainless steel brewing containers with chlorine bleach resulted in such pitting corrosion to the point where the vessels no longer could hold pressure due to pinhole leaks.

 

What makes stainless steel rust-resistant is a protective chromium oxide layer that forms on exposure to air. This layer is what protects the steel from rusting. The problem with chlorine bleach is that it can remove or compromise the chromium oxide layer and allow corrosion of the steel to occur.

 

In the case of the brewing vessels, I recall that the theory was that the bleach solution was not thoroughly rinsed out, and allowed to remain. As the solution evaporated, droplets of it became more and more concentrated, to the point where the concentrated bleach attacked the protective chromium oxide layer and resulted in the pinhole leaks.

 


Post# 1050934 , Reply# 42   11/13/2019 at 21:08 (1,569 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture

You may also note that the Bosch Axxis washer does not have a compartment for bleach.

 

Nor do any of my Miele clothes washers.

 

Instead, oxygen bleach and high temperatures can be used to remove stains.

 

 


Post# 1050937 , Reply# 43   11/13/2019 at 21:14 (1,569 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

sudsmaster's profile picture

Also, on page 17 of the Bosch Axxis manual linked above:

 

 

WARNING

 

DO NOT use chlorine bleach in this washing machine.

 

 

CAUTION

 

Decolorants may contain sulphur or chlorine.

These substances can cause parts of the washing machine to corrode. Do not decolorize items of laundry in the washing machine.


Post# 1050953 , Reply# 44   11/14/2019 at 02:15 (1,568 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

askolover's profile picture

My 22 year old Asko says not to use chlorine.   I've been using it the entire time I've owned it and have had zero problems.  The heating element isn't even discolored.  Miele also doesn't recommend but again I've been using it...but not on the 190F cycle.


Post# 1050958 , Reply# 45   11/14/2019 at 02:53 (1,568 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Miele machines do have a bleaching setting, don't they?

Post# 1050960 , Reply# 46   11/14/2019 at 03:15 (1,568 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
I`m wondering if Bosch`s warning against the use of chlorine might have more to do with the aluminum spider than the stainless steel parts.
As I said before stainless steel interior dish washers have always been the preferred design in the EU, long before chlorine free DW detergents came along.
But those were also loaded with waterglass a corrosion inhibitor which liquid chlorine bleach does not contain. Maybe this made all the difference.


Post# 1050962 , Reply# 47   11/14/2019 at 03:32 (1,568 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I think that with FL washers of early generations with stainless steal or aluminium parts EU manufacturers assumed that US people would use chlorine bleach much more frequently (like 10 to 100 times more commonly) and that they would not adjust dosage accordingly to the significantly lower water levels and probably higher temps and just put that disclaimer there to get out of any warranty claims related to that.

Those oxide layers are "fragile" and damage to them can lead to corrosion but as long as there is air around there should be really no danger.
Those oxide layers are atoms thick and reform badicly instantly on contact with air.

A much higher danger - especially with SS - is corrosion by particulates of other corrosive metals getting attached to the material for example during manufacturing.


Post# 1050967 , Reply# 48   11/14/2019 at 05:21 (1,568 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

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Miele say in their Professional manuals:



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Post# 1051058 , Reply# 49   11/14/2019 at 21:53 (1,568 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

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Great post, Alexander. It explains quite well the problem with chlorine and how to avoid it.

 

I was rummaging around my fish pond supplies the other day, and came across a tub of sodium thiosulfate. I used to mix up a concentration of that, and then use a metered siphon to add it to the make up water that runs into the pond from the tap every morning on a timer. However since a few years ago, the local water service changed from elemental chlorine to chloramine, the actual chlorine levels plummeted and I've been able to get by without any thiosulfate usage since.


Post# 1051071 , Reply# 50   11/14/2019 at 23:52 (1,568 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
The bleach compartments

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in FL washers are super small. You're literally using a couple of tablespoons and by the time the washer fills, it gets diluted and rinsed away. It's not like full-strength bleach is just sitting on the stainless. I could totally see how that could eat away at anything. I've seen so many videos of failing spiders and the inner tub is caked with mutant funk...I think that's what kills the spider, not the bleach. I can't stress how I'm talking about a couple of tablespoons of bleach going in the dishwasher (give or take) at the very moment you start it. I'm not like pouring a whole cup in there or anything. I use so little of the stuff that 1/2 gallon takes me ages to go through and I can barely get through it before it expires.

My FL washer is approaching 15 years old & it would be very difficult for me to go live without a little LCB

I remember growing up, we used Chlorox bleach in our TL washer, and we poured the recommended amount in and it was so STRONG. We always cut way back on the recommended amount because a little of it goes a LONG way and does less damage to fabrics.


Post# 1051078 , Reply# 51   11/15/2019 at 02:01 (1,567 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

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Just as an aside... salt water can corrode stainless steel, from the chloride ion in salt, which is sodium chloride. The steels with more nickel, like 18-8 or 304, are more resistant to salt water corrosion. 18-8 mean 18% chromium, 8% nickel. Even more resistant to salt water is 316, which is 16% chromium, 10% nickel, and 2% molybdenum. The molybdenum gives it more salt resistance.

 

There are many different types of stainless steel. In broad categories, they might be ferritic (usually magnetic), martensitic (harder, like for knives), precipitation hardening, or austenitic (generally non magnetic unless worked). The 304 and 316 types are austenitic. Most stainless steel knives (for cutting) are martensitic. Most stainless cutlery is austenitic, with the better quality being 304 or 316. It's a complex subject and even two knives made from the same type steel may have different characteristics depending on how they are manufactured.

 

 

 

 


Post# 1193810 , Reply# 52   11/17/2023 at 23:20 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
finish ultimate

Try finish ultimate and see if it works.


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