Thread Number: 81254  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Buying New Dishwasher- need honest opinions
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Post# 1052734   11/29/2019 at 19:22 (1,660 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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I saw the price and ordered it:

However, a lot of negative reviews on Amazon and in general. Will it out-clean/out perform my current Maytag?

I notice a re-redesigned pump, motor and filter. How does it clean?

Post# 1052737 , Reply# 1   11/29/2019 at 20:20 (1,660 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        

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Congratulations on the new machine.  Great price.


FWIW, Consumer Reports rated your KA as "Excellent" for both washing and drying, while a Maytag in the same line as the one you linked ranked "Very Good" for washing and "Excellent" for drying.


The KA is very quiet while the MT has a self-cleaning filter (soft grinder.)  Really comes down to preference on that.


That's what tough about buying major appliances, you'll live with them for years but can't try them out in advance in any meaningful way.  But these are both great machines, it's not like you can go wrong with either.


Looking forward to your report after you get it.


Post# 1052749 , Reply# 2   11/30/2019 at 03:54 (1,660 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

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Interesting as I have been shopping around lately.

I would take John L'a advice (combo52) as he has been touting Maytag is the best dishwasher right now. Being he has always been "Whirlpool Forever" and yes, Whirlpool is Maytag now, I like the quick video of the Maytag's wash action.
Seems to use a decent amount of water. The KitchenAid Prowash has that Squirt gun Zone. Hobart always has said "The water has to move or the Dishes have to move" for effective washing.

Click on the video.

Post# 1052751 , Reply# 3   11/30/2019 at 05:09 (1,660 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Thanks for the replies.

I'm torn between the two. I currently have the Maytag and it cleaned very well until I had to take apart the mechanism to get rack ball bearings out of it. Drying could be a bit better though WAAAY better then the early 2010 Whirlpool machines I had briefly.

Does the Kitchen Aid have a self clean filter or do I have to clean it? They seem to have some type of cylinder in the pump housing.

Also, what about Bosch or Miele?

I want something that will 1) last and 2) clean without ANY pre-rinsing.

Post# 1052752 , Reply# 4   11/30/2019 at 05:38 (1,660 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Looks like I don't have to clean anything?

Post# 1052753 , Reply# 5   11/30/2019 at 06:03 (1,660 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Motors are about the same

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Post# 1052755 , Reply# 6   11/30/2019 at 08:13 (1,660 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

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I was shopping with a friend a few days ago at a high end appliance store here on the Cape... When you really look at the prices side by side... If you are going to spend $800-1,000 for a machine, look at Miele. Yes, their service is expensive but the machines are great. You barely can hear them when they are on.

Personally, noise is not a factor for me. I just want the machine to last and perform.

Everyone has their choice. I will when ready more than likely go with Maytag.

Post# 1052758 , Reply# 7   11/30/2019 at 09:07 (1,660 days old) by NeptuneGuy27 (Baltimore,MD)        
Vote for Kitchen Aid

I have had the KA KDPM354GPS with the self cleaning filter for just over a year now and I really like it. The only thing I ever find that I have to clean is the Coarse strainer if something too large was left on the dishes; that's it. The dishwasher cleans very well and it's practically silent when running. It's very rare that I ever have to send anything back through. It is also nice to have a dishwasher that actually dries plastics unlike my Bosch that had the condensing dry system. I have attached some before and after pics of a typical load in my dishwasher. I hope you find them useful.


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Post# 1052759 , Reply# 8   11/30/2019 at 09:28 (1,660 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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More than useful. Thank you! :)

Can you take pictures of the sump area, spray arm and just the inside in general? If that filter truly is self cleaning, then I'm keeping my order.

Have you ever done a coffee ground test? Thats how I make sure a DW can really do the job on filtration.

Post# 1052761 , Reply# 9   11/30/2019 at 09:38 (1,660 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Are they more durable/longer lasting than Kitchen-Aid and Maytag?

Post# 1052763 , Reply# 10   11/30/2019 at 10:02 (1,660 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Here is the filter- how does it work?

Post# 1052764 , Reply# 11   11/30/2019 at 10:06 (1,660 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Chet, I have a Kenmore Elite that's 4 years old.  It's produced by KitchenAid.  It has what KitchenAid refers to as the Clean Water Wash System that's on the KA model you are looking at.  In fact, that was the very first KA model to offer the new self-cleaning filter system.  I believe this model came out Spring 2015.  I have hard water and had to have the whole pump module replaced just under the 2 year mark.  Since then I run Lemi-Shine dishwasher cleaner through it about once every 30 loads and use Lemi-Shine detergent booster in the wash dispenser along with my Cascade Platinum pod.  Overall I've been pleased with its performance.  The Lemi-Shine products I use was suggested by the repairman who replaced the pump module 2 years ago.  


I'd been using Affresh that was useless in my hard water.  


Because I'm dealing with hard water, I'm actually considering one of the Bosch Benchmark models with the integral water softener and CrystalDry feature.  


Post# 1052765 , Reply# 12   11/30/2019 at 10:48 (1,659 days old) by mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)        

I bought the MOL model Maytag last June and really like it. (I was also looking at a GE model that I really liked.) It cleans well, dishes are clean, no kibbles on top of cups and glasses. No filter to contend with and it has a heating element in the bottom. It seems the cycle times are bit longer though. (I don't start an appliance and then go to bed or go anywhere, learned my lesson doing such.) Bought the dishwasher mainly on the advice of a member here, JohnL (Combo52). New dishwasher replaced a 5 year old KA that kept going through motherboards.

My vote is for Maytag.


Post# 1052766 , Reply# 13   11/30/2019 at 10:49 (1,659 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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What was wrong with the pump? I did not know it was out for that long, but its comforting to know that it is.

I'm going to be honest: I'm seeing a lot of negative reviews about pumps and racks failing prematurely.

Post# 1052767 , Reply# 14   11/30/2019 at 10:54 (1,659 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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I'm curious what John (Combo52) thinks of these Kitchen-Aids. If I lived nearby I would pay his show room a visit and ask him for guidance.

I like the Maytag but three things happened:

1) The lower rack wheels fell off about 3 years after I got it.

2) About one year 4 months the ball bearing started coming out of the satin glide rack rails.

3) Made the mistake of taking the sump filter apart (bent it) thinking I could get the bearings out which are making a buzzing noise in the motor.

I really, really like my current Maytag but very unhappy about how both racks failed the way they did.

Post# 1052768 , Reply# 15   11/30/2019 at 11:00 (1,659 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Bent/damaged sump filter

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The way it is now it no longer cleans. I find food particles on the dishes and poor wash ability. The cover does not seat well at all.

Top rack is no longer usable as I just zip tied the rails because the rail (and the rack) is on the verge of falling. It rains ball bearings when moved.

I will give Maytag credit that the bearing have not damaged the wash pump or drain pump, there are some one and a half dozen down there lol.

Post# 1052772 , Reply# 16   11/30/2019 at 12:32 (1,659 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

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My personal preference is for a DW that doesn't have an exposed heating element. These can melt plastic items on the lower rack. With a Euro design like Bosch or Miele, the heating element is hidden in the sump area, out of sight. It heats the water instead of melting the items in the lower rack. Yes, without a fan you may find a little water on items. That's what clean dish towels are for. No biggie for me. I'd rather sop up a little water with a clean towel than have hard water mineral deposits.


Just my personal preference.


Post# 1052776 , Reply# 17   11/30/2019 at 13:28 (1,659 days old) by NeptuneGuy27 (Baltimore,MD)        
Sump area & General pics

Here are some pics of the sump area as well as couple of general pics. I have never done the coffee ground test but I can tell you that I've never found food particles in the bottom of coffee mugs or anything else that holds water. As far as the exposed heating element melting plastics: I have loaded plastics in the bottom rack and nothing has melted. In full disclosure, I tend to load them out towards the sides of the rack and not directly over the element.

You'll notice in the pics below that I show two different wash arms. The original X shaped arm as well as Whirlpools S shaped arm. Both clean exceptionally well but personally I think the S shaped arm ever so slightly edges out X shaped arm in wash performance. But I was in no way disappointed in the performance of the X shaped arm and as I mentioned above I rarely have had to send anything back through. But I wanted to try this arrangement after seeing Andrew's (Murando) videos on Youtube where he showed the both arms in action.

In pic #2 I zoomed in on the coarse strainer. This piece just lifts right off should you ever need to clean it. And the only time I ever need to is if something too large gets left on the dishes. Other than that, there are no filters to clean.

In pic #3, I was trying to show you the vent for the ProDry system. The fan pulls the air in from the top of the tub, condenses the moisture, drains the condensate back into the tub the fill flume, and vents the "dried" air through the bottom front of the dishwasher just behind the door.

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Post# 1052777 , Reply# 18   11/30/2019 at 14:07 (1,659 days old) by moon1234 (Wisconsin)        


Are they more durable/longer lasting than Kitchen-Aid and Maytag?
Generally yes. Miele is usually the least repaired of any dishwasher. They are not without any problems, but generally have the least amount of repair call outs of any dishwasher brand. Whether the price premium is worth it to you is the better question. Google Yale Appliance. They are a very large appliance dealer out east with over 30 repair techs on staff. They are OEM repair for almost every brand they sell. Miele is the least repaired dishwasher of any brand (and 2nd or third most sold). They post yearly numbers of sales of each brand vs call outs for repair during the same year.

If you do two to three loads per day; statistically you have a much higher chance of needing a repair. If you do one to two loads a week then the opposite is true. This really helps to determine if better reliability will translate to more uptime.

My house has 14 people living in it. We do three loads of dishes a day. We bought Miele simply to reduce downtime. We went through one LG (lasted three years) and two Bosh dishwashers (Three years and two years). In all cases the pumps burned out. Bosch had them replaced under warranty. The first Bosh we didn't buy an extended warranty. Pump was replaced at 11 months and then trashed when it burned out again. Second one we bough an extended warranty. The second Bosh had three pumps replaced before the extended warranty gave us our money back.

We are trying the Miele Crystal (with five year warranty). If that dies under five years or requires lots of repairs I guess we need to go to a commercial unit. If the dishwasher is like the Miele Laundry it should last the 10,000 hours it is designed for. Downtime really sucks on Laundry and Dishwashers in our home.

Post# 1052792 , Reply# 19   11/30/2019 at 17:20 (1,659 days old) by 48bencix (Sacramento CA)        
White finish is not available

I still have all white appliances. This KA does not come in white. Another KA model with the self cleaning filter does come in white but is about $1300. I do like the features of this model, for a stainless steel model the price can't be beat. It has the ball bearing rack. I also like the more expensive Maytag because of the ball bearing top rack. I am spoiled by my Kenmore Ultra Wash with self cleaning filter.

Post# 1052835 , Reply# 20   12/1/2019 at 10:14 (1,658 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        

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How does the self-cleaning filter actually work?

Post# 1052839 , Reply# 21   12/1/2019 at 10:46 (1,658 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
New WP Built DW

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Both the KA and MT have similar sized motors and neither has a filter that has to be cleaned, however I still prefer the simpler MT pump as it does not have the silly diverter that alternates water flow to the upper or lower wash arm, I would rather have a DW washing everywhere all the time.


John L.

Post# 1052841 , Reply# 22   12/1/2019 at 10:50 (1,658 days old) by NeptuneGuy27 (Baltimore,MD)        
Self Cleaning Filter animation

Here is an animation I found on the Whirlpool training site that shows how the Clean Water Wash system works. They also have a few other videos on there which are insightful.


Post# 1052844 , Reply# 23   12/1/2019 at 11:45 (1,658 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        
Self Cleaning Filter animation

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Interesting, thanks for the link.  So the theory of operation is that strategically placed stationary "blades" or "wings" around the filter keep the debris in suspension, not allowing it to stick to the filter so it gets flushed away.


I wondered if it was some complicated design prone to repair but it doesn't look like it.



Post# 1052855 , Reply# 24   12/1/2019 at 14:08 (1,658 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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So it neither spray arms work at the same time?

Post# 1052856 , Reply# 25   12/1/2019 at 14:11 (1,658 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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@NeptuneGuy27: I owe you- big thanks. I also want to ask, does this mechanism ever need service? How would it work if a ball bearing got inside it? Or would those just stay in the sump?

Post# 1052857 , Reply# 26   12/1/2019 at 14:16 (1,658 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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And oh, where is the dry fan? In the door? Down below? Will it expose my cabinets to moisture?

Post# 1052858 , Reply# 27   12/1/2019 at 14:27 (1,658 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Wash arm

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Also, is it fixed or is it like GE's orbital wash arm?

Post# 1052862 , Reply# 28   12/1/2019 at 15:21 (1,658 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
My Miele has a drying fan

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Its in it somewhere but I have never seen it...

However when its got to the drying stage it pops the door open and it stays there while the fan runs and when that stops you just open the door and that resets its opening mechanism for the next time.

It does not get warm or moist on either side and its boxed in so it must work ok.

Post# 1052944 , Reply# 29   12/2/2019 at 14:54 (1,657 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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I think the drying fan in the new Kitchen-Aids is in the door.

Post# 1052957 , Reply# 30   12/2/2019 at 18:31 (1,657 days old) by NeptuneGuy27 (Baltimore,MD)        

You're very welcome! I'll try to answer your questions the best I can:

1) The spray arms do alternate. I haven't found an occasion yet where they both spray at the same time. As far as the filtering mechanism: I can only imagine that if a ball bearing somehow made it passed the coarse strainer, it could do some damage to the actual filtering unit. I would also suspect that you would hear the noise if you were around. I cannot imagine that would be a silent affair.

2) The fan is underneath the dishwasher tub. The exhaust is mounted just above the toe kick. I haven't experiences any moisture damage to my cabinets or floor. And I had this dishwasher installed last summer when I gutted and remolded my kitchen.

3) The spray arm is fixed. But water coverage seems to be such that everything gets hit. And I load those racks in true "load as I like" random loading; everything gets clean. It is rare if I have to put something back through.

I would also like to add that detergent makes a big difference in this machine. I have water that's of moderate hardness (7 gpg) and Cascade Platinum works the best at not only getting the dishes clean but also keeping the dishwasher clean.

Post# 1052974 , Reply# 31   12/2/2019 at 22:00 (1,657 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Did they change the fan? Latter parts diagrams have it in the door.

For those who know like Combo52- will the Kitchen Aid out clean a Maytag? Equal? Or worse? I see the KA uses half the water of the Maytag.

Post# 1052977 , Reply# 32   12/2/2019 at 23:12 (1,657 days old) by NeptuneGuy27 (Baltimore,MD)        
KDTM354DSS - Closeout model

According to the Kitchen Aid site this model you're looking at is a closeout. I noticed looking at the pictures of the machine on their site, the venting configuration is different from mine; which could be why the parts diagram you're seeing has the vent in the door. Not sure I personally like this arrangement and it appears looking at some of the reviews online people have complained about the side vent causing damage to the surrounding cabinetry. You may or may not have a problem. But it is telling that the arrangement has been changed on the newer models to vent out at the bottom of the door.


Post# 1052978 , Reply# 33   12/2/2019 at 23:19 (1,657 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Closeout- meaning its going to be discontinued?

Post# 1052983 , Reply# 34   12/3/2019 at 00:57 (1,657 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Various appliance models (and other consumer goods) are continually discontinued.  Discontinuation doesn't mean the remaining stock and specimens in-use become non-functional.  :-)

Post# 1053002 , Reply# 35   12/3/2019 at 07:11 (1,657 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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This was the very first model offered with the Clean Water Wash system almost 5 years ago.  

Post# 1053016 , Reply# 36   12/3/2019 at 10:23 (1,656 days old) by eronie (Flushing Michigan)        

Didn't the Maytag reverse racks have this type of filter?

Post# 1053019 , Reply# 37   12/3/2019 at 10:27 (1,656 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Thanks- but I take it there is a reason for being discontinued?

What Whirlpool and Whirlpool made dishwashers reverse the wash arms? It seems all of them besides BOLs and Maytag.

Post# 1053099 , Reply# 38   12/3/2019 at 21:21 (1,656 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Got a call saying my model has been discontinued. This was given as a replacement:

What do others think? Looks like the fan dry is through the side again? Or they just have an older model pictured?

Post# 1053100 , Reply# 39   12/3/2019 at 21:46 (1,656 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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 KDTM354DSS vs. KDTM354ESS.  Display and software changes I noticed.  The DSS was announced late 2013 or early 2014.  The ESS was brought out spring/summer 2015.  


I'm beginning to think KA is getting ready to refresh their line of dishwashers again.  It's about time they do.  

This post was last edited 12/03/2019 at 22:21
Post# 1053125 , Reply# 40   12/4/2019 at 06:30 (1,656 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

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In the video why do they have a different Wash Arm as opposed to the modified HydroSweep ?

They have a three arm thing with whirly things on the ends that squirt the water.

In the still pic there is the "X" arm.

I think it's time for a new Manufacturer of appliances to break away of the same old same old.

Appliances are like New Music artist doing remakes of old classics that are and never will be the same.

Post# 1053148 , Reply# 41   12/4/2019 at 13:22 (1,655 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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I think so to.

The new model uses more water, which is good.

But I am still torn between the substitute model and a Maytag.

Do all DW outside of Maytag alternate the wash arms?

Post# 1053150 , Reply# 42   12/4/2019 at 13:59 (1,655 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

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I have heard that some people that have that alternating nonsense say the noise of the machine starting and stopping drives them nuts.

I think my friend's Miele alternates but you can't hear the darn thing running.

Like John said I would rather have the whole machine washing at the same time as opposed to one rack at a time.

Post# 1053162 , Reply# 43   12/4/2019 at 15:20 (1,655 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Mind Blown

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Thanks toploader, good point.

This seems to have the Whirlpool wash system. Is it a pre 2014 model?

Post# 1053169 , Reply# 44   12/4/2019 at 17:39 (1,655 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

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I believe you should random load and everything should be clean. Except for One Arm Wonders.

That being KitchenAid series 10-17 series. But then understanding their racking exquisit results shall be had.

Post# 1053172 , Reply# 45   12/4/2019 at 18:20 (1,655 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
I feel Maytag

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What do others think? Stay with the KA or have me change to Maytag?

Also- just because I saw it- will this machine be ok with 60Hz?

Post# 1053173 , Reply# 46   12/4/2019 at 18:30 (1,655 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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I am an absolute Miele fanboy, but I would buy a kitchenaid cleanwater wash before I bought anything else from whirlpool. Just my opinion though.

Miele is still my #1 pick though lol.

Post# 1053177 , Reply# 47   12/4/2019 at 19:10 (1,655 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
I want to get the Maytag

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Does anyone know if this has ANY ball bearings in the rack guides? Looks like wheels for the rack itself:

Post# 1053184 , Reply# 48   12/4/2019 at 20:50 (1,655 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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My biggest issue with the Maytag is the staggered middle rack.

The clean water wash system is better than the chopper assembly. If you've ever seen the meat grinder for KitchenAid stand mixers, that blade and die system is basically what the chopper assembly is in the maytags. It clogs up.

Post# 1053185 , Reply# 49   12/4/2019 at 21:13 (1,655 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Joshua, Maytag had a model MDB8989 on their site that's recently been removed.  It didn't have a tiered upper rack and the 3rd rack was some sort of culinary rack--it had two sections that one of which could be removed to accommodate taller items in that part of the upper rack.  I wish Whirlpool would offer that third rack design more often.  3rd racks get in my way putting in and kind of stacking things in the upper rack.  I just have a feeling Whirlpool is getting ready to refresh/offer new models in KitchenAid and Maytag lines.  They're over 5 years old since clean water wash system was introduced.  Offered new pocket door design a year or so ago.  

Post# 1053186 , Reply# 50   12/4/2019 at 21:33 (1,655 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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If you ask me this is the new line:

I see tons of Maytags on the HD and Lowes site not on the Maytag site many of which are "special buys" with a lower price. Also many of them have a side tube dry system where the new Maytags do not.

I like the slopped upper rack, it lets me fit tall dishes in the bottom rack.

I ditched the substitute KA and went with the Maytag for several reasons including the fact MDB7979SHZ seems to be a new model release.

Never heard of the food disposer clogging up. In all honesty I could see more problems with the KA system.

Post# 1053197 , Reply# 51   12/5/2019 at 02:03 (1,655 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

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When menards went exclusive Whirlpool corp, we stopped pushing anything Whirlpool or related. We might sell 3 maytag dishwashers a year anymore. KitchenAid is less than 10.

We push Miele, Bosch, Cove and Beko.

With having over 1500 work orders open for 6 service techs and our territory of 57 counties, we stopped pushing what needed service constantly.

Post# 1053205 , Reply# 52   12/5/2019 at 06:50 (1,655 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Clean Wash Water System

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This talk of the clean wash water system made me wonder about how the Bosch does.  Seems hubby does a lot of the unloading so I haven't really paid that much attention.  In these pics you can see the food soil on the dishes and in the photo of the clean dishes I did my best to photograph the clear water sitting on top of the mason jar.  It was hard to photograph but I guarantee that water looks crystal clear in person.


That's not too bad considering what they looked like at the start.  I used the Heavy wash option with 1/2 of a Miele Tab in the main wash.  Since I had the sudsing issue with the Cascade pods all my research led me to the Miele tabs and I have to say I am really impressed.  I am cutting them in half because we have mechanically softened water and a full one is just too much soap.   I have to say these Miele tabs clean like crazy.  Even the inside of the dishwasher sparkles like it didn't before.  They cost a little more but are worth it.  Cutting them in half makes them really affordable for me.

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Post# 1053209 , Reply# 53   12/5/2019 at 07:22 (1,655 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
New Dishwashers Etc.

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Hi Joshua, The chopper in a new WP built MT DW will NEVER clog at all in the life of the DW, if you want to be taken seriously as an appliance professional Please don't put crap like that on the internet.


DWs with alternating wash arms have a diverter valve, these often leak on the floor and cause an expensive repair just to save a little bit of noise, not worth it in my experience. I would rather have everything washing all the time.


The most common repair we are doing today on newer filter style DWs are service calls to remove broken glass which is blocking and jamming either the drain pumps or often in the case of Bosch DWs the main pump.


When the customer lifts the filter out to clean you often do not see little pieces of broken glass and it slips into the inlet for either the drain pump or main pump causing almost immediate problems.


While this could happen on models with a grinder we have not seen it yet because they are much better designed to keep large hard objects out of the pumps.


John L.


Post# 1053210 , Reply# 54   12/5/2019 at 07:23 (1,655 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.

Post# 1053217 , Reply# 55   12/5/2019 at 09:02 (1,655 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
I guess i better find the pictures of the chopper assemblies clogged with celery strands, stickers, bits of plastic wrap, broken ceramic, twist ties and corn kernels we've sent to the tech line proving that the choppers clog.

And why anyone would want a wash system that recirculates the food particles through the wash system is beyond me. Next you'll tell me the wash arms don't clog up with debris.

Wait, i dont care if im taken seriously. I am so ready to be out of this field. Im tired of having to prove my self to people like you and customers that think they know everything because they read it on the internet. And before you spout your bs about how long you've been doing this, i work for a company that is 5th generation in ownership, and second generation in service techs. They've been in business for 85 years, the current service manager started working there when he was 16, he started working for his dad (who started here when they originally opened) when his dad was the service manager. He's been there 44 years just on his own.

Sit there and tell me what to post. Ha.

This post was last edited 12/05/2019 at 14:09
Post# 1053218 , Reply# 56   12/5/2019 at 09:18 (1,655 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Just ignore him

Told him several times before what BS he talks.

Anybody who knows what his job is, knows how to use this site, how to use google and how to use a bit of critical thinking knows combo52's agenda, knows his quality of service and what kind of person he is in general.

It's so amazing how often diverter valves leak, yet how useless water protection systems are.

It's so funny how these choppers never clogg, but like 75% of all DW repair videos on YT are about how to clean these out.

BTW never heared of a jammed main pump on a Bosch. Like ever. On any design of theirs.

A DW technician should know the main reason for alternating spray arms as it does not draticly cut noise.
It does, somewhat, but barely.

I went away from this site to a certain degree because of discussions like this and people like him.

And now prepare to be shouted at and insulted...

Post# 1053234 , Reply# 57   12/5/2019 at 14:23 (1,654 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
I have seen dishwashers with diverter valves leak. Most of them American brands. I don't know that I've seen a European diverter based dishwasher leak.

I have yet to see a dishwasher with a slide shutter on the pump leak because the diversion is done IN the pump housing and not as a separate unit.

We have had some Miele motors jam, but that was from hard water buildup, too much detergent and lack of use. Soaking in heated white vinegar freed the motors.

The bulk of our issues with Miele dishwashers have been on the classic series, the heater elements reacted with something in the water up here and corroded. They have since changed vendors and materials.

Two motors have been jammed from debris and both were customer mis-use. One was in a drug rehab facility where someone pulled the filter assembly out and started the dishwasher, a piece of saran wrap wrapped around the impeller and seized the motor. The other, the customer dumped a package of flax seeds in the dishwasher on accident (the door was partially opened and they knocked the container over on the counter and it all landed in the dishwasher), when they pulled the filter out, the filter was so full it ran over and seeds dropped into the sump and jammed the motor. We used the motor fork, turned it the opposite direction and unclogged the motor after vacuuming it out.

One dishwasher showed up brand new with a seized motor.

The only leaks we've had on Bosch dishwashers were from the seams/welds of the tubs. I can think of 8 in the last 3 years. I have rarely had an issue with the diverter assembly or the sump. As far as jammed motors, I am not recalling hearing of any.

Our service calls are mainly Whirlpool-made dishwashers, GE and Samsungs. We have far more floor leak issues from Whirlpool-made dishwashers than any of the other brands combined. As far as I know, Whrilpool-made dishwashers are the only ones on the market that don't have some form of flood protection in any of their lineups. If I recall correctly, Jenn-Air had BSH making their dishwashers for the longest time...

Post# 1053248 , Reply# 58   12/5/2019 at 17:19 (1,654 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
I don't want to jump into any discourse. I do however want to point out one misconception about dishwashers with the disposal blade versus a manual filter: all "self-cleaning" chopper equipped dishwashers *still* filter the water. At least, this is true for any Whirlpool built machine since at least the mid 90's. The PowerClean platform is touted by many to still be one of the best dishwashers to have graced the planet, and it also fully filters the wash water as well, because of the mesh accumulator chamber under the wash arm. The soil is spun out with centrifugal force and some of the water pressure is directed straight into that filter chamber through a small passage inside the impeller chamber, much the same way a Dyson cyclonic vacuum spins the dirt out of the air inside the cones. This is also true for the Voyager and now the new Maytag platform that derives from the GlobalWash design of the current manual-filter WPs, KitchenAids, and Kenmores. The current Maytag's accumulator is housed under the wash arm above the spot the manual filter would normally sit, and in all mentioned machines, the drain pump pulls straight from that chamber, pulling the soil out.

I will agree that if care is not taken to avoid letting fibrous foods like celery, or labels/stickers and toothpicks fall in, the screen behind the blade will get clogged. Absolutely. But I will also say that it almost takes deliberate negligence to get to that point. The pic I posted is pretty extreme, I've never seen one like this on a Voyager. But the Kenmore Elite-Voyager machine my grandparent's had, before I gave them the slightly famous-to-this-site WP 920 model, had a fair amount of crud around the outer edges of that screen. Nothing that affected performance, but after around five years of use, that was the result.

If you do choose/have chosen the Maytag machine, I don't think you'll have a bit of problem so long as common sense is used loading it. As with most things during the internet era, if there were wide spread problems with them after all these years with this design, you'd have heard about it, and they would have absolutely abandoned and shifted the Maytags to the manual filter design by now and wouldn't be selling them like they do.

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Post# 1053252 , Reply# 59   12/5/2019 at 17:30 (1,654 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
Also, in defense of the diverter-equipped models, that 920 has been going strong since the end of 2015, and now it's lived since August 2018 at my grandparents with fairly hard well water. Granddad has been instructed to use nothing but Cascade Platinum or Finish Quantum and to never let that rinse aid compartment run dry. From what I've gathered, hard water, cheap detergents, lack of rinse aid, and prewashing dishes are all factors that cause the diverter shaft to etch and start leaking.

Post# 1053281 , Reply# 60   12/5/2019 at 21:38 (1,654 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Clogged Grinder Screens

combo52's profile picture
Hi Andrew, Thanks for your thoughtful post.

I am not sure where you got the picture of the clogged screen, and I have seen many exactly like that myself. That is a good picture of a grinder with a broken drive, it will NEVER look like that in normal use no matter how much stuff goes into the machine, the screen ONLY can clog with stuff if the blade is not turning.

Thanks Joshua for the examples of what I am talking about, DWs with removable filters cause a lot of service calls because people can remove the filter and things either slip by into pump openings and or people do not get the filter reinstalled correctly and then the wash arms quickly clog.

WP built DWs with their heavy duty grinders almost never get anything stuck in their wash arms because particles can not past the grinding plate large enough to clog the wash arms.

John L.

Post# 1053293 , Reply# 61   12/6/2019 at 01:37 (1,654 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Maytag System

chetlaham's profile picture
I think the biggest testament ti the grinder is the fact ball bearings are spinning inside it for a year now lol.

I see more clogging likely in the Clean Water wash system.

Post# 1053354 , Reply# 62   12/6/2019 at 16:52 (1,653 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
Yup, out of 356 dishwashers in 3 years from Miele, I provided TWO explicit examples of service calls out of 19,004 calls from the last 4 years, but I am so very happy you extrapolated such a vague plurality and commonality of failure from those results.

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