|
Thread Number: 81463
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Speed Queen: Loophole in Federal Regs brought back classic TC5 |
[Down to Last] |  |
Post# 1055022 12/21/2019 at 10:49 (1,856 days old) by dylanmitchell  (Southern California) |
||
Interesting article in the Wirecutter (now a NY Times publication) about how Speed Queen was able to bring back classic washers. Basically they created a cycle that meet DOE regs but doesn't clean so you just use the other setting and can deep fill which uses up to 24 gallons a load. Similar to how the 2017 machines met DOE regs but an even more useless token normal cycle for DOE testing. The tough part is consumer education don't use the normal cycle dealer should have stickers they can put over it.
Speed Queen’s VP of home sales Jay McDonald, Speed Queen “found a loophole” in the regulations that allowed the company to reintroduce it in its classic form, with some minor modifications to the settings. Washer efficiency, in the eyes of the Department of Energy, is determined almost entirely by the Normal cycle. To measure efficiency, the Department of Energy takes a weighted average of the water and energy use of all the temperature settings and other options that might affect things, such as the cycle time, spin speed, and water use. It doesn’t look at the water or energy use on other settings, like Heavy Duty, regardless of how inefficient they might be. So essentially, Speed Queen created a Normal cycle that (most of the time) is so purposefully stingy with water and energy that it allows the TC5 to meet the efficiency regulations—even though it also has a Deep Fill option that fills the entire 24-gallon tub to the brim, and even though the Heavy Duty and Permanent Press cycles use more water and higher temperatures on the Hot setting. These other options are Speed Queen’s defining traits, and popular features among people who prefer this old-school-style washer (even though there’s a ton of evidence to prove that efficient washers are usually much better at removing stains and preventing fabric damage than the washers that use the most water). According to McDonald, people jokingly referred to that Normal cycle as the “Department of Energy cycle” when it was under development. It’s labeled as Normal Eco cycle on the final version of the TC5, which McDonald said was meant to signal to owners that it might not work as well as a typical Normal cycle. In our testing, the Normal Eco cycle was not effective. We tried it with different load sizes, with different temperatures, and with and without the Deep Fill option, and no matter what, our stain strips barely looked any different when the cycle ended. On the plus side, the Poka-Dot test strip (which shows wear on fabric) came out almost entirely undamaged, but that’s a hollow victory when the machine is barely cleaning your clothes. We shared our results with Speed Queen, and the representatives were not surprised. McDonald even told us that the company coaches dealers to tell customers not to use the Normal Eco cycle and to use the Permanent Press or Heavy Duty cycle instead. CLICK HERE TO GO TO dylanmitchell's LINK | ||
|
|
Post# 1055059 , Reply# 1 12/21/2019 at 18:56 (1,855 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
||
I call BS on Speed Queen’s claim they were able to bring back the classic wash action TC5 because of a newly-discovered loophole in DOE regulations. They’d been doing it for several years prior to the debut of the agi-tub/transmissionless TR series. My 2017 9-series has a Normal/Eco cycle that’s virtually identical to the same cycle on the TC5.
They brought back a “classic” washer due to a drop-off in sales because of consumer complaints and dismal test results of the TR line. One change: Adding the Heavy Soil option to the Normal/Eco cycle on the TC5 (which is how CR tests washers), increases wash agitation time to about 25 minutes. This boosted the cleaning score of the TC5 to ‘Very Good’ in CR’s latest test. I use the Normal/Eco cycle frequently for small-to medium-large size loads with great results. Unfortunately, the N/E cycle on the 9-series provides what amounts to a cold water wash no matter what temperature you select. I fill the washer with true warm or hot water using the Heavy Duty cycle, then switch to the N/E cycle. Someone here with a TC5 says it fills with true warm or hot water on the N/E cycle. If that information is correct, then the N/E cycle is identical to the Heavy Duty cycle except for the spray rinses. Not sure why cleaning results in Wirecutter’s test with the N/E cycle were so poor. They certainly weren’t using the Heavy Soil option, with its very long wash agitation, but my N/E cycle has a max wash time of about 15 minutes (roughly the same as HD or Whites cycles) and it does a great job of cleaning when filled with true warm or hot water. The article also references SQ’s “corkscrew” agitator, implying it has a dual-action agitator, which is not true. I don’t use N/E for really large heavily-soiled loads because SQ’s spray rinses are not as effective as those on some other brands’ washers. And a very large, heavily-soiled load needs a deep rinse, as do loads using liquid chlorine bleach; but for many typically-soiled 3-8 lb. loads, it works well. This post was last edited 12/21/2019 at 19:19 | ||
|
Post# 1055121 , Reply# 3 12/22/2019 at 10:03 (1,855 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
||
 | ||
|
Post# 1055128 , Reply# 4 12/22/2019 at 10:54 (1,855 days old) by imperial70 (MA USA) |
||
|
explain please I think that has to do with the fact that some front loaders don't spin between rinses or they spin at a shortened duration or slower speed between the rinses. I'm not to familiar with the top loaders so I won't go there. | ||
|
Post# 1055133 , Reply# 5 12/22/2019 at 11:44 (1,855 days old) by dylanmitchell (Southern California) |
||
|
TR failed so what's old is new again and voila TC5
SQ could have brought out the TC "classic" washer in 2018 but went with the TR line instead. With the failure of the TR line they needed something new or even better something old and proven what's old is new again. As long as the mechanicals are there the washer can be tweaked to perform well be fun to set up a TC5 controlled by a Rasberry Pi.
| ||
| Post# 1055143 , Reply# 6 12/22/2019 at 13:24 (1,855 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
speed queend washer going back to classic design
speaking of speed queen going back to there classic design do you think they should go back to timers like these rather than use fancy electronic where its the person starting the washer that select the needed wash time wash and rinse temp as well as water level depending on the size of the wash load rather than having fancy electronic that decide everything and where wash water might not go in the washer tap hop if hot water is selected for the wash or warm as well as add the option of a warm rinse that can be toggle on or off like the extra rinse option when needed? pic is an exemple
View Full Size
| ||
|
Post# 1055151 , Reply# 7 12/22/2019 at 14:51 (1,855 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
||
Speed Queens TC5 TL Washer
Yes I agree with Eugene in reply #1, there are several mistakes in Wirecutters article and some of what the SQ rep is saying is BS, not the least of which are they providing stickers to place over the Normal-Eco cycle label.
SQ is trying to make the best of a situation that caused to plummet after the new TR TL machines were introduced. I still predict that SQ is going to redesign the new TR models as they need to do this anyway as the current TR models will not work in commercial situations and they want and need to stop building the old transmission washers. John L. | ||
|
Post# 1055226 , Reply# 9 12/23/2019 at 08:50 (1,854 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
||
@Reply #4
Nearly ever since commercial washers became also extractors there has been considerable debate within industry about extracting between rinse cycles.
Many commercial washers this day are programmed to run several wash then rinse cycles and only extract and end of things. Indeed tunnel washers that are rapidly taking over industrial/commercial laundry business (at least for larger plants) cannot extract between cycles, and only do so at end. Rationale for not extracting after main wash and or rinses is that it pulls dirty water through wash. Some people still feel old ways are best; to dilute all suds/muck out of wash first, then extract. Much of this goes back to when soaps were main "detergent" for wash day; you didn't want to drain scummy soapy water through wash, so things were rinses several times before wringing, mangling, extracting to ensure most of dirt/soap was gone. The large SQ washers at local laundromat only do short slow gentle spins (if you could call them that) after main wash and first rinses. There is one or maybe two hard spins after spins before final rinse. Obviously if you're not fully extracting between cycles there is considerable carryover of water (besides other things), which one supposes does keep water usage down (at least for H-axis washers). Subsequent rinses use less water because the less then spun dry wash won't absorb much as it would otherwise. | ||
|
Post# 1055234 , Reply# 10 12/23/2019 at 11:45 (1,854 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
||
|
PinkPower4, All household washers (and dishwashers) retain a bit of the final rinse water in the pump and tub sump, but that is due to design and limitations of the pump, not for the express purpose of reusing water for the next washload. It's impossible for the pump to push 100% of the water up/out the drain hose. Balance rings, liquid-filled or other, are not a new thing. Early WP direct-drive washers have a "ballast ring" integral to the basket. They later went to an attached ring. Maytag Neptune frontloaders since 1997 have a balance ring that can be heard sloshing when the drum is rotated by hand. Unknowing DIYers occasionally get concerned about hearing "trapped water" and drill a hole in the balance ring to drain it, resulting in trouble. | ||
| Post# 1055240 , Reply# 11 12/23/2019 at 12:37 (1,854 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada) | ||
|
pinkpower4
Pinkpower4 if you can afford to have washer dryer sets ship from canada to your home you can find on this website old fashion washers with mechanical timers
www.econopluselectromenag... | ||
|
Post# 1055241 , Reply# 12 12/23/2019 at 12:50 (1,854 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay) |
||
 A stacked Neptune set came with the house we bought last year. I was unfamiliar with Neptunes and when I heard water sloshing the first time I turned the drum, I thought it hadn't completely drained. I later learned that it was ballast to help with balancing, and indeed it does.
As for SQ TC vs. Maytag 575, in the case of a matched set the choice is easy. The Maytag dryer is a Whirlpool design which has remained tried and true for more than 50 years. Meanwhile, SQ still uses a (non) sensing system that is inferior to perhaps any other make. Between bad rinsing and bad drying from SQ, the decision to go with Maytag is an easy one. | ||
|
Post# 1055247 , Reply# 13 12/23/2019 at 15:04 (1,854 days old) by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia) |
||
|
I still say that SQ should look to how F&P did it in 1985. No gearbox, no brake, just an infinitely controllable motor, and two shafts with locking tabs to lock the agitator and tub together once it turns past 360 degrees. They already have all the components in their Agitub, they just need a second shaft. | ||
| Post# 1055252 , Reply# 14 12/23/2019 at 15:53 (1,854 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa) | ||
 >> There are not too many electronics around my house that I have not altered. I have always wondered if I >> could tweak the electronics on my Maytag. How does Raspberry Pi work with a washer? This certainly >> peaks my interest! The sky is the limit, really. Add some relays and support circuits for sensor interfacing, and you could completely replace the entirety of your machine's control system, and program it to do whatever you'd like from start to finish. Or you could create something like the "piggyback ECUs" that are popular in the performance car world, and create a device that sits between the sensors/motors and your Maytag's control circuitry, allowing it to modify the values to trick the Maytag's brain into using higher water levels, different water temperatures, allow the lid to be unlocked during different parts of the cycle program, etc. You might also consider using an Arduino (or the like) instead of a Raspberry Pi. For something as simple as a washing machine, there's really no need for a full-blown computer. | ||
| Post# 1055318 , Reply# 15 12/23/2019 at 23:15 (1,853 days old) by eurekastar (Amarillo, Texas) | ||
 After reading this, I used the Normal/Eco cycle on my Speed Queen for the first time yesterday. It's an unscientific test...but I ran a small load of four dress shirts on the medium level. I then ran them through the rinse & spin cycle on the same water level. The water on rinse & spin was clear as a bell, which leads me to believe that, for some loads, the Normal/Eco cycle does an adequate job of rinse. However, I certainly would not use it for a full load of towels! | ||
|
Post# 1207845 , Reply# 17 6/21/2024 at 22:56 (211 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA) |
||
|
Speed Queen Classic I hope the Speed Queen Classic remains in production. It was stupid to introduce the perfect wash. My clothes are sturdy cottons and I need a classic wash action. | ||
|
Post# 1207868 , Reply# 18 6/22/2024 at 13:24 (211 days old) by kalanikaau1 (Honolulu, Hawaii) |
||
Post# 1055022
Shown here is a top loader I bought used approximately 1 1/2 years ago to replace my aging Maytag, it sat in my carport with the intentions of eventually sanitizing it for my personal use.
The 24 year old Maytag has recently developed issues which has caused me to get off my duff and work on the SQ, model number LWN432SP115TW01, product code TV2000WN, according to the serial number, it was produced in Sept. 2018. Another forum member has said that this machine was never offered for sale for residential use, rather that of a commercial setting exclusively. As the mechanical timer shows there is a N/E cycle available with a spray rinse instead of the traditional tub fill/agitate mode in the R-P/P cycle. I questioned if the N/E cycle included an additional rinse option, consulting the timer matrix for my machine indicates that it is not, I'm supposing that this is how SQ met DOE requirements by eliminating the extra rinse and therefore additional water usage. This machine, I suppose is the "daddy" of the current TC5 model except for having a mechanical timer, the prime reason why I bought it. You'll notice that it lacks a water fill level option, this is fine with me, it's my understanding that the TC5 offers a "deep fill" option. Once the machine is in service, it's doubtful that I'll ever use the N/E cycle at all and opt for the additional rinse option available in the R-P/P cycle as there is a family member who has laundry detergent residue sensitivities. | ||
| Forum Index: |
| Other Forums: |
|
|
|
|
|
Comes to the Rescue!
;){kind=link}
;){kind=link}