Thread Number: 81623  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
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Post# 1056417   1/3/2020 at 18:31 by JohnBee (USA, NY)        

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I had a trip to my husbands family in Georgia and I realized that everyone is in love with their old style agitator top loader.
They claim capacity
While I was there I run a full load of 8 bath towels.
Today I can prove that a small 24” front loader can handle more !
Btw we live in NYC and there’s absolutely no space for a full size washer. Even having a washer is kinda a luxury here

Check the following pics . 7 bath towels 7 hand towels and 8 wash cloths


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Post# 1056419 , Reply# 1   1/3/2020 at 19:40 by bradfordwhite (space coast)        

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People in the UK whose homes are often basementless and smaller in general than what we have in the U.S., will typically have a 24" space under their kitchen counters for a washer.
They've been getting on quite fine with such a washer for quite the while now.

I had a 24" Maytag/Whirlpool washer I bought in 2015. It worked just great. No problems.


Post# 1056420 , Reply# 2   1/3/2020 at 20:16 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        
Electrolux compact

Our rental condo this week in Florida has an older square foot Frigidaire Gallery FL set. It runs great but does not perform good enough interim spins. However it does use quite a bit of water. If this newer model is like the older one I am quite interested!

Post# 1056421 , Reply# 3   1/3/2020 at 20:29 by RP2813 (Sannazay)        

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John, you don't have to convince me!  There is no way our king size comforter could fit in any size top load machine.  Our Maytag Neptune front loader is small compared to most of today's front load machines, but the comforter fits in it. 

 

I won't ever again have a top loader as my daily driver, even a vintage one that fills all the way, rinses thoroughly and uses truly hot water when desired.   I've been using front load machines since 2007 and they are more efficient and better at cleaning. 

 

My 1987 Maytag top loader is hooked up, but it sees little use.


Post# 1056464 , Reply# 4   1/4/2020 at 09:21 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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My 1997 Asko has served us fine for 23 years and we have a king bed.  The Miele w1986 holds even more than the Asko does.  I don't want an oversized behemoth because it won't fit in my closet with the doors closed.


Post# 1056585 , Reply# 5   1/5/2020 at 10:23 by Iej (Ireland)        

In Ireland plenty of homes have would tend to have space for laundry machines - utility rooms and garages being the most common, but you've almost zero demand for top loader agitator washers.

They were a niche product until a couple of decades ago, often used in B&Bs because they were able to wash loads relatively quicker than 1970s and 80s front loaders but their spin speeds and performance is pretty poor compared to modern front loaders and in light commercial use you'll typically now find Miele Little Giants and Electrolux semi commercial etc etc

But for residential use the standard sized cabinet machines are pretty much the absolutely norm. Also it's worth bearing in mind that standard European front loaders very in depth quite a lot

The higher capacity machines are significantly deeper front to back and you'll sometimes find very shallow, slim line machines used in tight apartments where you'd typically be expecting to wash for 1 or 2 people max anyway.

But you easily get a very large hamper of towels into a typical present day European washer in a single cycle. Most of them also use scooping ladle paddle systems and/or recirculation pumps to ensure total saturation of laundry, and it does genuinely do a good job.

As for basements in houses; they're very much a feature of tradition US construction due to an adaptation to climate. In the parts of the US with extreme winters, a basement allowed for simple furnace heating systems that used rising warm air and is a source of fresh air (through their the heating system).

In Ireland and British houses generally basements wouldn't be used in construction as they're unnecessary. Also due to the climate being rather more mild and damp, they tend to be a complete mould trap. So basements are just generally not a feature at all.

You'll find washing machines in kitchens in some homes, but depending on the layout a utility room is fairly common. In a lot of 1950s era houses there used to be a large utility room with drying space that was often accessed from across the yard - to give access to outdoor lines. Those homes would have had at last semi automatic washing machines back in the day and plenty of automatics and tumble dryers when they first arrived - those utility rooms also sometimes housed the boiler (if gas) but oil boilers (which were and still are common) were almost always housed in a separate boiler room with external louver doors. Many homes of that era used to have the boiler room seperated from the house with a short run of insulated pipes underground linking them. This was to reduce noise and also for fire regs.


These days you'll typically find gas boilers or heat pumps in the house itself as the underground piping is considered a huge waste of heat.

The 50s era utility rooms would often a deep sink, lines for hanging clothes indoors and sometime access to a covered yard (often perspex roofing) for hanging outdoors in the rain.

The other common location for laundry machines is the garage and typically in Ireland hardly anyone ever parks a car in their garage. It's just more awkward than its worth. They tend to become glorified storage sheds and workshops. In a lot of homes they're just scrapped and converted to an extra room. So in a lot of homes thats where you'll find the washing machine and dryer.








Post# 1056617 , Reply# 6   1/5/2020 at 15:39 by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
being budget wise

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if for x reason i had to replace my 15 year old g1 whirlpool duet washer dryer set and could not afford the new frontload model beause they are 1 to costly or 2 had cycle i would not use i would go back to a topload washer mostly like in this set pic as an exemple with the matching dryer but so far after 15 years of use my g1 whirlpool duet washer is still going

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Post# 1056663 , Reply# 7   1/6/2020 at 05:58 by iej (Ireland)        
Machines in bathroom - rust issue?

I'm always a little surprised though with the way some continental countries seem to quite commonly put washing machines (and dryers) into quite small bathrooms, often in extremely close proximity to showers and baths.

It's illegal here due to both electrical and building regulations which are extremely conservative about electrical appliances and outlets in bathrooms. Installing a washing machine in a bathroom just isn't legally permitted at all. We can't even install light switches in bathrooms (other than ceiling-mounted versions, operated by a non-conductive pull cord). All bathroom light fittings have to be IP rated and any lighting or fixed devices like shaver sockets, fans, instantaneous electric showers, towel rails, heaters etc also have to be both IP rated and RCD (GFCI) protected and there's a whole load of tight regulation about earthing (grounding) that involves bonding of all metal surfaces and plumbing to the earthing system of the house to ensure equipotential zones i.e. that there's absolutely no possibility of a potential difference (voltage) between any metallic surface.

Electrical sockets (outlets) are can't be installed in bathrooms at all, with the only exception being a shaver shocker which only accepts 2-pin plugs found on shavers and toothbrushes and is limited to 0.2amps and connected via an isolating transformer to completely eliminate any shock risk.

I've just always wondered though when you consider that washing machines are not IP rated, beyond very very simple levels i.e. they don't have exposed electrical components and would generally not be suitable for installation in damp or steamy environments, do they not rust and cause problems e.g. if their electrical components or electronic boards become damp?

I wouldn't imagine that an open-winding electric motor, as found in most machines, would be too happy with constant exposure to steam. It would also apply to things like relays and certainly to the electromechanical controllers (cam programmers) that were used in older machines. Even modern electronic controls would probably have issues with damp conditions.

I appreciate that the machine's probably connected using a socket that's RCD protected, so the shock risk is extremely low, but it just seems like it would potentially shorten the life of any machine to have it in a steamy bathroom.



Post# 1056665 , Reply# 8   1/6/2020 at 06:10 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
@iej

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My washer and dryer are in the downstairs bathroom its in the corner where the hot water tank sat. There is a 13amp double outlet on the inside of the dividing wall its extremely difficult to access the plug due to the confinement of the space and its too far away to reach while in the shower, This was installed 2 years ago and is up to code as the whole house was rewired at the same time, I took a pic of my new washer its my logo.


Post# 1056666 , Reply# 9   1/6/2020 at 06:14 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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In my previous apartment I had up to three washing machines and two dryers in the bathroom. Never had any problems with rust or electrical problems. I kept one washing machine in an unheated shed for a while, now that led to problems! The motor gut moisture on the inside and I guess it started rusting from inside. When I installed it and started using it after a few years, the motor gave a burning smell.

Post# 1056670 , Reply# 10   1/6/2020 at 06:33 by iej (Ireland)        

@ozzie908 : I'd be interested to see if that actually passed a building or electrical inspector. The majority of electrical installations in this part of the world are self-certified with only spot checks / complaints going to the regulatory bodies.

If the socket (and machine) is not more than 3 meters from the bath/shower, it does not comply with England/Wales electrical or building regulations. I'm familiar with both Irish and British regs on this. They're a little different but they're quite similar.

While sockets are (in theory) permitted outside the restricted zones, the risk of using a portable appliance with a cable is taken into consideration, which is where the 3m rule comes from regarding socket outlets.
The rule as interpreted is that they must be at least 3m from the boundary of zone 1, which more or less bans them from all but the most enormous of bathrooms.

In theory your washing machine would be allowed 'outside zones' but would have to be connected without a plug and socket i.e. using a fixed, fused spur connector and an RCD to eliminate any use of sockets.

The fact that the socket is inaccessible is also a breach of code, as you're legally supposed to be able to isolate the washing machine either with an isolating switch or by removing the plug, which should be accessible if it's the only means of isolation.


Post# 1056677 , Reply# 11   1/6/2020 at 07:32 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
@iej

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The socket is not inaccessible it is difficult to change the plug but you can slide your hand down the gap to switch it off if you need to.

The electrics were all done by a reputable company here in Lincoln city and I too am aware that the distance between the washer and the shower are less than 3 meters but the difficulty to reach the power point while standing in the shower is practically impossible if you look at my picture the machine is in its corner the shower is to the right on the opposite wall.

The Circuit breakers we have are so sensitive they trip at the slightest hint of earth leakage, I have no doubt someone will find something to complain about but me I am more than happy to not have my washer in the kitchen have always hated that.


Post# 1056679 , Reply# 12   1/6/2020 at 08:21 by JohnBee (USA, NY)        
Regulations

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I've seen several new listings in New York City having the washer and the dryer installed next to the shower.
I would worry more about having a 230v dryer next to the shower rather a 120v washer.
In my case it was all about space. I really had no space next to my kitchen sink.
My heatpump dryer is located in the kitchen.

I also don't like the idea having the machine next to the bathtub for several reasons. BUT having a washer installed and not having to take myself to the laudromat is amazing. :)
FYI washer is connected on a GFCI outlet and always unplugged while not used.


Post# 1056680 , Reply# 13   1/6/2020 at 08:28 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
@johnbee

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Hi it is nice not have to go to the launderette I would loath having to use one nearest me and I am so used to having my own machines I could not live without them now.
As you have the washer in your bathroom why not the dryer on top of it ?


Post# 1056701 , Reply# 14   1/6/2020 at 12:46 by JohnBee (USA, NY)        
Dryer on the top

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For 2 main reasons :)
1. makes the room way too small. It makes me feel claustrophobic.
2. My outlet is 20amps. I would like to run both units at the same time and this is not possible-Safe. I need at least 30 amps.


Post# 1056720 , Reply# 15   1/6/2020 at 17:55 by iej (Ireland)        

120V or 230V will efficiently electrocute you in the shower if there's no RCD/GFCI and proper grounding.
I wouldn't be more worried about either of them - they're both potentially lethal if not installed correctly.


Post# 1056721 , Reply# 16   1/6/2020 at 18:19 by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        

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Many washers in the Midwest are located in old houses and unfinished basements without standpipes and just drain onto the floor, creating a big puddle of water on the floor around the drain.  I grew up with one like this...as a little kid it was fun to watch.  A neater approach is to have the washer drain into a washtub and have that drain more slowly into the floor drain.

 

The basement shower shared the floor drain so pausing the washer during a shower was a must.


Post# 1056730 , Reply# 17   1/6/2020 at 20:16 by Rieon (Alberta, Canada)        

rieon's profile picture
Nice. Our kenmore Dd can handle a large load very well too!

Post# 1056731 , Reply# 18   1/6/2020 at 20:16 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Shock Hazards With Laundry appliances

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Are nearly nonexistent with washers and dryers as these appliances are always permanently grounded through their power cords, in fact GFIs are not even recommended for these appliances.

 

In the US it would not make any difference whether the appliance is 240 volts or 120 volts, the shock potential to ground on a 240 volt dryer or electric range can never be more than 120 volts.

 

The only possible way you can get a 240 volt shock in the US is to get inside the appliance and touch the L1 and L2 wires at the same time, this will not happen even if you put the dryer in the shower with you, LOL

 

This is another reason why the 240 Volt GE Partio Carts were not any where near as dangerous as a string of Christmas lights as far as a possible shock hazard goes. The GE PC is permanently and completely grounded through the power supply cord, a few years ago we had a down poor durning cooking on one of our PCs and I didn't even turn it off, everything was still working and heating through the downpour.

 

 

 

John L.


Post# 1056739 , Reply# 19   1/6/2020 at 22:04 by Iej (Ireland)        

Most European countries require RCDs (GFCIs) on all socket outlet circuits, regardless of where they're located. We've required them since the 1970s in Ireland and the UK introduced a mandatory RCDs more recently in the last revision of their wiring regs.

However, in most cases in Europe a laundry appliance would be both grounded and RCD / GFCI protected.

Also, grounding in the Irish and British context anyway has always been extremely reliable and omnipresent. The installation of non grounded outlets stopped before WWII. So all outlets have a ground (and safety shutters) etc

The huge risk in a bathroom with an appliance is that you are likely to be standing in a very well grounded area with wet feet and often with ion containing soaps and products in the water. 120V or 230V in that context are both potentially lethal.

Incidentally, in this part of the the world anyway, the incident of death by electric shock in residential contexts is EXTREMELY low. It's far more likely you'd be struck by lightning than killed by residential wiring or appliances.

Where electrocution happens here tends to be where people accidentally make contact with overhead lines in construction work and also farm accidents. Again, rare but much, much more common than residential fatal shocks.

The universal use is RCDs (GFCIs) and the very conservative wiring rules are why that's the case, and especially the 100% availability of earthing.

In my home all of the appliances, even ovens are RCD / GFCI protected. Each major hardwired appliance is on a RCBO (combined breaker and GFCI module), so are the laundry appliances and fridges, dishwasher etc. The rest of the outlets share one RCD per row of breakers.

Also the bathroom lighting, fans etc, all the outdoor lighting, heating system - pumps, boiler, timers, controllers and the electric water heating etc are all RCD protected due to being in contact with plumbing.

All pipework is also connected to ground and bonded with cross bonding connections.

The ground is TN-C-S, meaning the house has local ground rods and the local ground is also connected to the supply neutral which is grounded at regular intervals all the way back to the transformer. This ensures there's always a very solid ground connection and instant tripping of anything that shorts to ground, as it will get very little resistance and will trip RCDs or even breakers and fuses without any delay.

Statistically 230V systems don't seem to be causing any extra fatalities compared to 120V. It's mostly about good design and safety systems though.





Post# 1056740 , Reply# 20   1/6/2020 at 22:45 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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In my previous apartment in Groningen I had a whole house GFI, but the dedicated laundry connection box was excluded from it. I sometimes had a washing machine running while showering. The laundry appliances were far away enough from the shower corner so you couldn't touch the washers. One was a bit closer I used an extension cord to run that, never did it while showering. The outlet that I used for that one was on the GFI though. These days electrical appliances are that safe that electrocution is hardly a hazard anymore. You will have to get into an appliance to come in touch with the electrical components.

Post# 1056742 , Reply# 21   1/6/2020 at 22:50 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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This picture was taken in my bathroom. The shower corner is left from the AEG toploader. The bathroom was about 2 x 3 meters.

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Post# 1056850 , Reply# 22   1/8/2020 at 09:12 by Iej (Ireland)        

They're somewhat improved, in the sense that there's more plastic used in the machines and the design of a lot of components is safer, but there are still considerable shock hazards from Class I appliances, particularly in wet environments if there's any issue with earth continuity (grounding).

Using trailing sockets in bathrooms is just insanely dangerous if there's no RCD. I mean if you want to take the risk, fine! However, it's not just bad practice it's really dangerous.

If you take a typical extension cord, socket part is unlikely to have any significant IP rating and will have live metal components just behind the plastic casing and extremely close to openings. All if takes is to drop that into an area with pool of water on the floor or to grab it with wet enough hands and you'll get an electric shock.

Bathroom devices absolutely should be on an RCD. Just because if works and hasn't killed you, doesn't mean it's safe or advisable.



Post# 1056859 , Reply# 23   1/8/2020 at 10:31 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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The grounded extension cord was plugged into an outlet on a GFI, so I didn't worry about that. I never used the AEG toploader while showering. BTW, it wasn't a trailing socket, just a regular double isolated extension cord that could only take one plug.

The frontloaders were on fixed bathroom connection with pull cord.


Post# 1056871 , Reply# 24   1/8/2020 at 12:03 by Logixx (Germany)        

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All I remember is how inconvenient I found it to have to blow dry my hair in my bedroom when I studied in the UK because there was no "proper" outlet in my en-suite bathroom. All the girls on my floor had extension cords so they could do their hair in front of the mirror.

And well, then there was this little thing about either washing your hands either under running ice water or steam. ;p





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