Thread Number: 81995  /  Tag: Other Home Products or Autos
Loss of all effective paint removers due to methylene chloride ban...
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Post# 1060158   2/10/2020 at 13:16 (1,536 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.






Post# 1060166 , Reply# 1   2/10/2020 at 14:49 (1,536 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
I've used citrus based

furniture stripper, and it does take longer to work. I then used a plam sander to finish up.
I'm all for a better environment for our grand kids. Hexavalent chromium six recntly spilled out a drain onto a local freeway two months ago. An even bigger problem was discovered once the abandoned plating facility was opened up. Scott Pruitt doesn't care. You should.


Post# 1060171 , Reply# 2   2/10/2020 at 15:41 (1,536 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)        

robbinsandmyers's profile picture
Would oven cleaner work or aircraft paint stripper Home Depot sells?


Post# 1060206 , Reply# 3   2/10/2020 at 19:45 (1,536 days old) by sfh074 ( )        
The only one ....

I can find that still has methylene chloride in it.

www.aircraftspruce.com/ca...

Maybe should stock up.


Post# 1060210 , Reply# 4   2/10/2020 at 20:43 (1,536 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

Thank you Bud, I ordered that and will see what it does. Hopefully the requirement for a mil spec remover keeps that one around for a while.


Post# 1060238 , Reply# 5   2/11/2020 at 07:51 (1,536 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

arbilab's profile picture
Fascinating. Stir in a couple molecules of fluorine and you get freon 12, all but harmless.

Post# 1060240 , Reply# 6   2/11/2020 at 09:31 (1,535 days old) by sfh074 ( )        
Come back here .....

David, and let us know how it works. I'm down to about a quart of some good stuff I bought 10 years ago. If this brand works well I'll buy a gallon and put it on the shelf with my 20 lb bottle of R12 for future projects. lol

Post# 1060242 , Reply# 7   2/11/2020 at 09:33 (1,535 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

Bud, I will let y'all know once I receive it and give it a test. I have some of the original Dad's Easy Spray remaining, so I can compare them. I'm sorry I had to delete my first post. 


Post# 1060252 , Reply# 8   2/11/2020 at 11:48 (1,535 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)        
All the really fun stuff is gone...

twintubdexter's profile picture

First they take away plastic model glue, now this!


Post# 1060254 , Reply# 9   2/11/2020 at 12:12 (1,535 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)        
fun stuff.................

robbinsandmyers's profile picture
I know right?!?!?!? Next will be gold spray paint and paper lunch bags!!!

Post# 1060256 , Reply# 10   2/11/2020 at 12:15 (1,535 days old) by sfh074 ( )        
A good read ....

www.popularwoodworking.co...

The writers opinion towards the end brings a good point.


Post# 1060279 , Reply# 11   2/11/2020 at 14:55 (1,535 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

lowefficiency's profile picture
I spoke with a fellow at a local furniture restoration shop about paint strippers a few years back...

He had an interesting perspective, that our "pitchfork" society is very quick to rally behind banning chemicals that are *confirmed* to be dangerous, even if just moderately so, instead giving a strong preference toward chemicals and formulations that haven't been sufficiently studied/tested to make a conclusion. "If nobody says it's dangerous, then it must be safe!" is the reasoning.

The end result, for his industry, was a change from products of well-known & easily mitigated risks, to new products proclaiming safety with no basis, no knowledge of long-term side-effects, and worst of all, a very misleading reassurance of safety sufficient to make the average DIY-er forgo any concern to take standard precautions when using the products.


I don't remember if that discussion was about methylene chloride in particular, but it really resonated with me when I realized how many products around us were labeled as "safe" alternatives...


Post# 1060291 , Reply# 12   2/11/2020 at 16:23 (1,535 days old) by philcobendixduo (San Jose)        
Old Car Alley.....

philcobendixduo's profile picture
......channel on YouTube just talked about this very subject. He was VERY disappointed in the performance of the new formula paint stripper he was using to strip paint from a car he's working on.
A helpful comment from a viewer told him to try putting plastic sheeting over the area with the stripper on it and let it sit for a few hours.
That did the trick. The paint stripper took the paint right off just like the "old" formula did.
It just needs more time to work but MUST be covered to avoid evaporation.


Post# 1060307 , Reply# 13   2/11/2020 at 20:13 (1,535 days old) by iej (.... )        

It’s been banned in Europe for a decade at this stage. Seems we’re surviving.

Post# 1060311 , Reply# 14   2/11/2020 at 21:28 (1,535 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)        

jamiel's profile picture
There have been some real horror stories about methylene chloride deaths that are frightening. Next thing will be the black lung that kitchen cabinet/countertop makers are now starting to come down with...from the silica in the granite/engineered materials.

Post# 1060322 , Reply# 15   2/12/2020 at 02:08 (1,535 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

At one place I visited-a cold chamber for testing planes and engines,guns,etc on an Air Force Base they used MANY tons of Methylene Chloride as a refrignet in the 6 15 Hp compressors.3 were going when I visited-the BIGGEST Allis Chalmers motors I ever saw--and the 3 other would be started when the F-15 plane engines were started in that test chamber-HUGE spherical tank holding the stuff-the guide took me under it!
Granite and other cultured granite table tops-these are cut WET with diamond blades or wheels to keep the dust down.Many tool makers and blade makers make DRY cut blades and wheels.Now the machines that use these have guards over the wheels that are connected to a HEPA type "shop" vacuum to collect the dust-the vac-dust collector is VERY effective-new OSHA requirement for cutting concrete,countertops,and so on.The attchemnt goes onto standard 4" to 6" angle disk grinders.DeWalt and Bosch.Should be available at your Lowes or HD soon.


Post# 1060344 , Reply# 16   2/12/2020 at 09:50 (1,534 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
California prop. 45 or 65?

got model glue banned. We still hve it here, but as a kid, my folks only allowed me to use the citrus based glue in winter, as a window was not opened. I used to see rejected from closed state mental hospitals patients placed into group homes in the 80's sniffing glue from plastic bags on the streets in the city neighborhoods.
Pick your poisons. It was voted in.


Post# 1060346 , Reply# 17   2/12/2020 at 09:56 (1,534 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Well, if you

prefer just survival, again, pick your poisons. Many say two deaths per year is two too many. Sure, more die falling from a ladder, but it's all incremental, just like a hundred pennies still add up to a dollar, even though a single penny is worthless. I call it a ridiculous paralell. Not very logical.
Many extreme conservatives have a "thin the heard out" mindset also, until it affects them. Rush Limbaugh for example. Now he has stage 4 lung cancer.


Post# 1060350 , Reply# 18   2/12/2020 at 11:01 (1,534 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

Just a follow-up from me, as I started this thread here and have started similar threads in other places.

 

I had initially asked here what fellow antiques restorers have used to remove paint since this product became unavailable. Thanks to several of you who replied with your answers.

 

The reason I removed the initial post is in response to replies on Facebook and elsewhere. My simple question degenerated into a political disagreement and mud-slinging fest. This is precisely what I did not want to happen. Even after removing my original post, I see that this discussion is edging towards the same path.

 

As with all chemicals, there are hazards associated with it. I too believe that people dying from an incident with a product is extremely bad and should be avoided; however one must weigh the options, to determine what is the best way to prevent it. What I must remind people is this. All of the MC-based paint removers have had dire warnings about the lethal potential of the vapors of the chemical. The issue is not that the product is too dangerous. It is that people were using it without proper knowledge of the hazards associated with it. I don't want to get into any arguments, but if the directions had been followed - these incidents would not have happened. People ignore directions for many reasons, ranging from "thinking they know better" to peer pressure, to the boss telling them to do it. It happens, and it will happen. My father and grandfather taught me at home, to be very careful with chemicals because "they can kill you." Home training is a good start, as well is the continuing education we receive at work about new products introduced into our workplace.

 

One serious issue in our society today is that ALL products with any hazard carry the "Most dire of dire" warnings. People use a can of brake cleaner, and see it says DANGER but they abuse it and breathe the fumes and get away with it. The can of paint stripper has no more serious of a warning, but the hazard is more severe.  The constant bombardment with DIRE DANGER warnings on products with only moderate hazards has lead to a significant level of complacency. In the industrial world, the SDS sheets and hazard warning labels are a lot more detailed and are much more informative, but are above the head of average consumers. 

 

There are several reasons that original MC paint stripper served an important purpose. The main reason was lead paint abatement. I can see that several commenters here have limited or no experience with this. The danger of lead paint is in creating forms which can be inhaled or ingested or absorbed. The safest form of lead paint is when it is in a solid form. The worst is when it is in a dust form.

Many of the antiques we work on are painted with lead-based paints which have been painted over with many layers of other paints. The years and heat have made it very difficult to break down the paint and remove it. 

 

Every time you apply and remove paint remover, you are exposing yourself to the paint remover and to the lead paint which is coming off. Any product which requires additional interaction, such as applying Saran wrap, scrubbing with a brush, or multiple additional applications is exposing the user to lead and stripper at each step.

 

When these "new generation" strippers work, they work slowly and require more applications. The stripper and the removed paint never dries (or takes many days), leaving a lead paint gel, which is difficult to contain and prevent from spreading. When MC based stripper and removed paint is allwowed to dry, it returns to a solid, hard state which will not spread lead paint around.

 

Furthermore, MC based strippers work without intervention. You apply the product and then later, it easily brushes off. Each time you interact with it, there is a hazard. By being effective, you use less applications and spend less time actually interacting with the paint and stripper. 

 

Some coatings are simply not removed by the next generation strippers. This leaves only one option - mechanical removal. This is where the severe lead paint dust hazard becomes an issue; or in the case of the pressure washer, containing and disposing of the lead based paint shreds and chips is a nightmare.

 

So, again my original post was aimed at finding an alternative which will not increase the lead paint hazard associated with our antiques restoration hobby - no more and no less. 


Post# 1060353 , Reply# 19   2/12/2020 at 11:53 (1,534 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)        
Dave,

twintubdexter's profile picture

You really know your "stuff". A very educated reply. Sometimes these topics get steered way off course but in many cases it makes them a little more interesting provided they don't get nasty. I'm guilty of getting them off-track many times. The closest I ever got to sniffing glue was assembling models as a kid, but in my old age the brain cells went right ahead and deteriorated anyway.  


Post# 1060367 , Reply# 20   2/12/2020 at 13:26 (1,534 days old) by a007kirbyman (--->> Originally My Mom <<--- (now Wisconsin))        
Dave & Protection(s) from [[ ? ourselves ? ]]...

a007kirbyman's profile picture
Hello Dave.

I always enjoy reading your posts, especially the restorations.

We're supposed to be a smarter, more well educated society; & yet, common sense, common courtesy, & common decency are NOT as common as they used to be!!!

I've met (or heard) some people with more degrees than a thermometer, & yet they were (are) dumber than a box of rocks!!!

In MANY instances, [we] need to be accountable for [our own] actions/choices, with limited exceptions.

I think this picture below sums up a lot, for 'some' of our society.

TY & hagd/n all,

Bill



0450


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Post# 1060373 , Reply# 21   2/12/2020 at 14:37 (1,534 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Key word "hobby"

so not exposed to the caustic chemical(s) every day occupationally, which brings higher risk. I think member Frigilux currrently uses his avatar photo of asthma cigarettes which were once made in Ontario Canada.

Post# 1060375 , Reply# 22   2/12/2020 at 15:01 (1,534 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

@reply #20 - Thanks Bill. I'm glad you are enjoying my restoration posts. I plan to keep doing them as my time allows, as long as they are well received where shared. 

 

I agree with you that personal accountability is sadly, being lost.  The duct tape meme is very applicable, it seems.

 


Post# 1060592 , Reply# 23   2/15/2020 at 00:48 (1,532 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Read the paint remover ads in older Popular Mechanics,Popular Science,and Mechanics Illustrated magazines-paint removing was done with blithe abandon-The MC chemical paint removers,and mechanical paint removers-you used them on your Do-all tool-the electric drill.The dust from those was everywhere-operators NOT wearing any sort of breathing protection.Besides lead older paints contained chromium,and cadmium pigments in them-all toxic.Seemed like we lived thru all those!Would folks do these today???Now we have become afraid to do anything!Time to remove that paint with that disc sander in the drill!

Post# 1060610 , Reply# 24   2/15/2020 at 08:14 (1,532 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
MC Paint Removers Etc

combo52's profile picture

MC should be banned from commonly available paint removing products that people causally pick up at their local Lowes and HD.

 

Yes Americans have come to expect that products we pick up off the shelves are pretty darn safe, and these products get scattered around homes left under sinks in closets basements etc.

 

Yes I do believe in better living through chemicals and I think MC paint removers should still be available but only through serious paint and auto body supply stores.

 

John L.


Post# 1060642 , Reply# 25   2/15/2020 at 13:02 (1,531 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)        

robbinsandmyers's profile picture
Or people that pass a simple written test to be able to buy it.

Post# 1060670 , Reply# 26   2/15/2020 at 17:44 (1,531 days old) by sfh074 ( )        
They used to .....

put a big skull and crossbones on packaging. Seems like they need to bring that back. Or some icon that gets your attention. They removed the skull and crossbones from packaging back in the 60's when kids started playing pirates and the whole pirate thing (maybe 50's walt disney?) making pirates fun. The skull and crossbones icon on packaging was then thought of as a liability as kids might look at it as a curiosity making the package more appealing. Today there seems to be more prominent warnings on a pack of cigarettes and in much bigger bolder font, than the "may cause death" in 8pt font on the back of a paint remover can buried within the instructions.

I'm afraid the new prop65 CA cancer warning will become the same way. In the last 3 days, I have seen it on the bicycle innertube I bought for the granddaughter, on the new kitchen faucet I replaced at my mom's apartment and the new end table lamps for the living room. People are going to start blowing the warning off if it shows up on everything you buy. I guess the old joke that everything causes cancer is true!

So I did some reading on the MC based paint remover health issue. The majority of deaths reported since 1985 were from people refinishing bathtubs (21 cases) or working on items in tight spaces with no ventilation. It appears MC fumes are much heavier than air and would collect in the tub. As people worked face down in the tub they breathed the MC fumes and once in the blood stream it gets converted to carbon monoxide, whereby causing asphyxiation or heart attack. Inhalation is the only reported transport method .... no reported cases from skin contact.

I like John's idea. Make it still available, but you have to go out of your way to get the stuff .... but also put the method by which the stuff can hurt you on the front of the can. Don't just put a big "Poison" label on the front as they do. But tell what the stuff will do to you and how. Something like, "If you don't suppy proper cross ventilation, you could die from asphyxiation or heart attack. Do not breathe fumes". Wait, I think that last line is already buried on the back in 8pt font!





This post was last edited 02/15/2020 at 18:03
Post# 1060675 , Reply# 27   2/15/2020 at 17:59 (1,531 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)        

robbinsandmyers's profile picture
They're prob not worried about users inhaling the fumes irresponsibly but rather the gold spray paint in a bag or the Tide pods users as just another new thing of getting high off it.

Post# 1060687 , Reply# 28   2/15/2020 at 21:21 (1,531 days old) by CircleW (NE Cincinnati OH area)        

I can't imagine why someone would be using this on the inside of a bathtub. Iron or steel fixtures are finished in porcelain enamel, and unaffected by paint strippers; fiberglass and acrylic units would probably be ruined by using such chemicals on them.

I have heard of the exterior of old claw foot tubs being painted, but that wouldn't involve someone having their head inside it.


Post# 1060693 , Reply# 29   2/15/2020 at 23:16 (1,531 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Stripping Paint From The Inside Of Old Bath Tubs

combo52's profile picture

Hi Tom, I have known of several people that were stripping the epoxy enamel off old bath tubs that had been repainted where the finish was failing and they wanted to refinish the tub again.

 

10s of thousands of old BTs get relished every year and these refinish jobs often don't wear well if not done correctly or cared for properly, and if 21 people died trying it must be done more often than one might imagine.

 

John L.


Post# 1060703 , Reply# 30   2/16/2020 at 04:32 (1,531 days old) by sfh074 ( )        
I once saw ....

an episode of "This Old House" where they showed an old claw foot tub being restored on site by a refinishing company. The poor tub had been painted a hideous pink by the home owner. The guy was using paint stripper to remove the old paint and it came off rather easily ... but he was inside one of the rooms in the house because there was snow on the ground outside. I remember seeing the guy bent over into the tub scrapping the old softened paint with a putty knife. I also remember he had a respirator and a floor fan blowing towards him.

Post# 1060753 , Reply# 31   2/16/2020 at 18:58 (1,530 days old) by CircleW (NE Cincinnati OH area)        

John, I didn't think about tubs that had been previously refinished. I've seen ads for such services, but never known anyone who had that done. I can imagine it would be difficult to get the coating to adhere well, especially to glasslike surfaces.


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