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Thread Number: 83374
/ Tag: Refrigerators
What Exactly Is "Moist Cool" Anyway? |
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Post# 1077001 6/13/2020 at 20:53 (1,415 days old) by Launderess  (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Have seen in various adverts vintage and not so much makers of refrigerators touting "moist cool". Supposedly this kept foods fresher longer all without need for crisper drawers and or other closed off areas.
Only time see any sort of condensation in my GE fridge is during humid weather when have had door open too long, or going in and out. | ||
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Post# 1077006 , Reply# 1 6/13/2020 at 21:33 (1,415 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Moist Cold ? That is a very good question Launderess, some refs are differently more moist than others depending how the cooling system is designed, one would think that if a refrigerator manufacturer actually had a better system they would talk about what the humidity level is in their refrigerator.
My pantry all-refrigerator I modified so the inside fan runs all the time which causes the evaporator to defrost without a heated defrost cycle whenever the compressor shuts off, as a result the moisture stays very high. You can tell by cardboard boxes in the refrigerator because they are damp and soft compared to my other all-refrigerator., overall I can not tell any difference in food life although I did have some apples last over one year in the pantry ref.
John L. | ||
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Post# 1077007 , Reply# 2 6/13/2020 at 21:45 (1,415 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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 Single-evaporator refrigerators, which recirculate cooled air from the freezer into the fresh food section, are by-and-large a low-humidity environment. Moisture (frost) is continually collected (and drawn out of food) onto the cooling/freezing coil and then drained away via auto (or cyclic) defrost. Freezer burn is dehydration. Moist cool would be a design effort to provide higher humidity in all or some areas of the fresh food section. Dual-evaporator refrigerators can do that better by way of having separate cooling coils in each section. The refrigerator evaporator doesn't need to run as cold and gather so much moisture and defrost it away. Sub Zero and such that have two compressors, completely separate refrigeration systems for the two sections, are touted as excelling at storage longevity of fruits and veggies. Other designs (such as the GE Arctica that was included with my house) have one compressor with a valve that can send refrigerator to either the freezer coil, the fresh food coil, or both. | ||
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Post# 1077030 , Reply# 4 6/14/2020 at 03:11 (1,414 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Interesting....
Frigidaire had something they called "Cold Wall" refrigerators.
Apparently a "Dew Mist" glass seal seperated lower chamber from top (freezer?), and refrigeration coils were built into walls surrounding lower compartment. There you had it, a cold refrigerator without "moisture robbing", air circulation. digital.libraries.ou.edu/sooner/... Tend to focus mostly on laundry appliances, but guess early on refrigerator makers were thinking up ways to lure hold outs from ice boxes to their products. | ||
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Post# 1077152 , Reply# 6 6/14/2020 at 23:47 (1,414 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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Frigidaire Cold Wall
Consumers' Research Bulletin discussed this in their September 1949 test of twelve fridges.
They say, in effect, what's so great about storing food uncovered?
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Post# 1077153 , Reply# 7 6/14/2020 at 23:59 (1,414 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Bosch Farm Fresh | ||
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Post# 1077173 , Reply# 9 6/15/2020 at 07:28 (1,413 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD) |
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I think that is what John found to be the case in an old Hotpoint of similar design that we were looking at in the shop decades ago. | ||
| Post# 1077197 , Reply# 10 6/15/2020 at 08:51 (1,413 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan) | ||
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"cool and boist" Total boisture, because it has nanospheres. Ida Tibeon narrating the Victoria Principle cosmetic line back in the early 90's. | ||
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Post# 1077263 , Reply# 11 6/15/2020 at 17:41 (1,413 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Post# 1077322 , Reply# 12 6/16/2020 at 05:25 (1,412 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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That Frigidaire "cold wall" design sounds rather complicated and an accident waiting to happen. One puncture in wrong place and there went that fridge.
Still an interesting design concept for sure. Does anyone today make fridges with "cold wall" design? That is coils surrounding fresh food cabinet instead of blowing cold air. | ||
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Post# 1077334 , Reply# 13 6/16/2020 at 07:34 (1,412 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Frigidaire Cold-Wall GE and Hotpoint also did this, All the original two door top freezer GEs and HPs from about 1948-53 had a second freon filled cooling system powered off the freezer evaporator. This expensive design to build gave you a higher temperature evaporator which did not wring as much moisture out of the air, condensed water ran down the inside walls to a drain in the rear corner of the refrigerator liner.
Hi Laundreress , No it was not a disaster waiting to happen, the refrigerators evaporator tubing was behind a porcelain enameled steel wall, the only way to puncture or otherwise cause a freon leak would be with a 38 calibrator weapon, it was very built, LOL.
THE BIG PROBLEM with very high humidy in refrigerators is MOLD growing inside, Sub-Zero had big problems with mold in the FF section of many of their refrigerators. My high humidity all ref in the pantry has to be taken all apart and the shelves etc bleached at least once a year and the defrost drain gets clogged at least as often and has to be flushed.
John L. | ||
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Post# 1077340 , Reply# 14 6/16/2020 at 09:07 (1,412 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD) |
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Maybe it needs a UV bulb in the air flow path. | ||
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Post# 1077362 , Reply# 15 6/16/2020 at 12:46 (1,412 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA) |
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Post# 1077387 , Reply# 16 6/16/2020 at 16:48 (1,412 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia) |
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Hi John, When you say Powered off the Freezer evaporator, you just mean via heat transference, or does the secondary coil actually have a refrigerant path back to the compressor? Cheers Nathan | ||
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Post# 1077496 , Reply# 17 6/17/2020 at 07:28 (1,411 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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When moving I bought a Samsung Combo cause it was on offer no more expensive than other even less reputable Brands. It does have 2 moisture and temperature controlled drawers, one for produce one for meats and such. Both are cooler than the rest of the fridge. Never really belived in that but I do have to say that produce and such appear to last significantly longer. | ||
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Post# 1077513 , Reply# 18 6/17/2020 at 11:09 (1,411 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 1077580 , Reply# 19 6/17/2020 at 18:03 (1,411 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Reply #17 | ||
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Post# 1077908 , Reply# 21 6/19/2020 at 21:53 (1,409 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Post# 1078150 , Reply# 24 6/21/2020 at 17:50 (1,407 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA) |
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I wonder if there's any significant difference between a "coldwall" design and a passive cooling design (i.e. think GE serpentine coils atop the refrigerator section or Kelvinator cold-plate along 3 sides of the top of the refrigerator section) with drippage into the drip pan.
Clearly the current "norm" in US/Canada is fan-forced refrigerator and freezer (was the first the Westinghouse Cold Injector?) with two controls (thermostat and airflow) | ||
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Post# 1078165 , Reply# 25 6/21/2020 at 19:32 (1,407 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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How did these Kelvinator fridge/freezers defrost without electric heating elements? Just shutting off cooling and waiting for nature (or physics) to do the work?
books.google.com/booksQUESTIONMA... | ||
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Post# 1078203 , Reply# 26 6/22/2020 at 07:14 (1,406 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA) |
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Post# 1078204 , Reply# 27 6/22/2020 at 07:21 (1,406 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Cold Wall Refrigerators Hi Chris, Reply #22, That is a great description of how a basic two door cycle defrost ref works Except cooling the lower ref compartment is not FREE by any stretch of the imagination.
When you put warm food in the fresh food section, fill it up after a grocery store run open the door etc the compressor turns on a runs and runs even though the freezer was perfectly sitting near zero degrees it is using a lot of electricity to cool the ref section.
In the US we built millions and millions of these two door cycle defrost refrigerators and they are still built the world over. They are the ultimate in simplicity and reliability but fell out of favor for many reasons.
The down sides, uneven slow cooling and freezing of food items placed in the F or the FF sections, the freezer has to be defrosted manually and packages get frozen together hard to read etc. In the FF section anything that touches the back wall can freeze and be ruined, gets wet and things on the upper door shelves are not as cold, the user has to be careful where things are stored.
John L. | ||
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Post# 1078205 , Reply# 28 6/22/2020 at 07:32 (1,406 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Reply #25 Magic Cycle Kelvinator Hi Launderess, These used a hot gas defrost defrost system that quickly warm-up the freezer compartment shell and allowed ice to melt and then go back to freezing again all in about 10 minutes.
Other brands like Westinghouse did this with electric heaters which probably took a little longer.
The reason these systems quickly fell out of favor was they did not work well if the freezer was packed full packages would melt slightly and freeze together and defrosting was uneven and some frosty areas often either remained or grew over time, and customers did not like seeing frost.
John L. | ||
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Post# 1078239 , Reply# 30 6/22/2020 at 12:14 (1,406 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Ideal ref temps | ||
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Post# 1078241 , Reply# 31 6/22/2020 at 12:36 (1,406 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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My fresh food section is set at 35°F, freezer section at -2°F. The meat drawer is a Custom Cool drawer that has: - a timed defrost function (1/2 LB = 4 hrs, 1 LB = 6 hrs, 2 LBS = 10 hrs, 3 LBS = 12 hrs) (use it often) - timed Quick Chill function (15, 30, 45 mins) (have never used it) - specific temp settings for Citrus (43°F), Produce (35°F) and Meat (30°F). | ||
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Post# 1078469 , Reply# 32 6/24/2020 at 05:49 (1,404 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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Basicly any packaged food over here says "Store at 7C or below". So there's that. | ||
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Post# 1079066 , Reply# 33 6/28/2020 at 20:11 (1,400 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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GE Breaks Down Various Condenser Types
Personally have always heard condensers located on bottom of fridge were hard to keep clean. Especially in homes that were dusty and or had pets. Can imagine all that hair and dust just gets sucked into condenser rather like air conditioners.
products.geappliances.com/applia... | ||
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Post# 1079123 , Reply# 35 6/29/2020 at 09:46 (1,399 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 1079125 , Reply# 36 6/29/2020 at 09:51 (1,399 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan) | ||
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No, the GE never clean is a jelly roll condensor. I don't know abot the dual evap. cooling models, with a seperate fridge section evaporator coil. I vacuum mine twice yearly. It doesn't get nearly as dusty as the flat serpentine style. | ||
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Post# 1079152 , Reply# 37 6/29/2020 at 12:32 (1,399 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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OK, that's what I figured. Neverclean is complete marketing bullsh!t. This is mine today. The non-fan side of the coil roll is closed with a cardboard cover. The fan pulls air in through the coil roll from the left side of the front toekick and/or the rear cover (which is slotted at the coil side, solid at the compressor side) and blows it across the compressor and out the right side of the toekick. It was cleaned by blowing with an air compressor not more than a year ago. There's no way vacuuming can reach the full surface, around the backside. It's a 16yo Arctica SxS, dual-evaporator. One (variable speed) compressor with a valve to direct the refrigerant to either or both of the evaporators. | ||
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Post# 1079182 , Reply# 38 6/29/2020 at 17:39 (1,399 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 1079188 , Reply# 39 6/29/2020 at 18:21 (1,399 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 1079196 , Reply# 40 6/29/2020 at 19:17 (1,399 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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GEs Never Clean Condensers You are correct Glen it is sort of BS. I did see a demonstration where GE wrapped an inch of fiberglass around the condenser and it does not affect refrigerator performance at all.
That condenser has to get real dirty to affect anything because of the positive flow of air being pulled through it.
Even as dusty as that condenser is you could easily go 5 years before cleaning it if your home stays below 80F.
Shell Condensers On Chest Freezers [ these are also used on many all refrigerators and upright feeders as well.
SC have several advantages and several disadvantages.
They are cheap to build
They help to keep the cabinet from sweeting on the outside.
They don't need cleaning.
The disadvantages
They heat up the outside of the appliance so it is like your R or F is always operating in an 80-120F room which makes it run more and use more power.
You can not build it in tightly.
John L. | ||
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Post# 1079208 , Reply# 41 6/29/2020 at 20:26 (1,399 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 1079265 , Reply# 42 6/30/2020 at 03:59 (1,398 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Post# 1079267 , Reply# 43 6/30/2020 at 05:57 (1,398 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD) |
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The other awful thing about condensers hidden in the shell of the appliance is that if the condenser develops a leak, there is little chance of fixing it. | ||
| Post# 1079277 , Reply# 44 6/30/2020 at 07:11 (1,398 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia) | ||
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condensers hidden in the cabinet if a leak develops, I have seen them retro-fitted with an old fashioned black tube condenser on the back of the cabinet. However you do lose the hot gas heating around the door openings to prevent condensation. Probably doesn't help efficiency, either. | ||
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Post# 1079291 , Reply# 45 6/30/2020 at 07:58 (1,398 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Add-On Condensers Reply #44, Actually it would improve efficiency quite a bit, this is why all the biggest and best refs use a fan forced condenser.
When you look at the huge refs we build in this country that have large capacities and all kinds of features and they use as little or less power than an average chest freezer, the fan forced condenser is one of the reasons for this amazing efficiency.
Condenser fan motors generally draw 4 watts or less now a days.
John L. | ||
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Post# 1079297 , Reply# 46 6/30/2020 at 08:27 (1,398 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK) |
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Admiral SxS is now into 
its third year and I still have not had to clean underneath it. I have pulled the grille off the front and cannot see what needs a vacuum? Its just had another repair the same board that went last year decided it would not let the thing work with the door shut !!! It worked ok if you open either door it was deemed a relay on the board had died so I bought a cheap Beko fridge freezer that works on the wet back wall system, The freezer part is frost free and boy did that get cold quick the fridge took a few hours to get cold but it remained cold what I found odd was it was so quiet am not used to that kept thinking it wasn't working.
So now have a bottom freezer/fridge to get rid of as no room for the 2 its down the shed at present out the way. OK so todays daft question what should I be looking for on this Admiral fridge that needs cleaning ?? I had a Whirlpool before this and the dogs would lie in front of it where the warm air came out sadly their fur made its way into the coils underneath and what a bugger they were to clean out? The photo shows how awkward it is to get at especially when your a bit a on the portly side lol. Austin
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Post# 1079545 , Reply# 47 7/1/2020 at 23:53 (1,397 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Cold Wall Fridge? | ||
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Post# 1079606 , Reply# 48 7/2/2020 at 18:39 (1,396 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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GE NeverClean condenser
Apparently aren't well loved nor liked by some repairmen or owners of refrigerators with system.
www.reddit.com/r/applianc... | ||
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Post# 1079713 , Reply# 49 7/3/2020 at 19:55 (1,395 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Kelvinator Moist Master
Brochure/owners manual for 1941 Kelvinator "Moist Master" explains things rather well IMHO.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1941-Your-Moist... | ||
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Post# 1079847 , Reply# 50 7/4/2020 at 22:29 (1,394 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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You don't say...
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