Thread Number: 84667
/ Tag: Vintage Automatic Washers
Miele Mechanical Timer Not Advancing
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|Post# 1090951   9/27/2020 at 23:05 (916 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
So here's me doing a bit of washing on Sunday with the Miele W1075. Wasn't paying total attention but suddenly it dawned upon one that wash cycle was taking rather long time to finish.
Finally washer did get round to draining wash water, filled for first rinse, then sat sitting there. Noticed while could hear the normal clicks, wasn't hearing the purring of mechanical timer's gears.... This is not good...
Turns out washer's timer seems to be kaput! It will click off increments, but won't advance. Well not all the time and on time anyway. When moved to certain points in drain or spin timer will click over to next bit, but that's all.
Will give a call to Miele USA on Monday to see what there is; highly doubt timer motor (or worse) electronic control are still available for this machine. More to the point if they are and cost quite dear will have to make a decision...
Much as one loves "Big Bertha" she is getting on, and if this latest incident is going to run three or more hundred in parts and labor will have to consider options.
Washer long has needed a hot water inlet solenoid (NLA from Miele USA), and don't think cold water triple inlet is available either.
|Post# 1090985 , Reply# 1   9/28/2020 at 06:42 (915 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
Sorry to hear that.
I'm sure timers or timer motors in Europe for your kind if machine are plentily available, problem is timers for miele washers sold in the US Market are different I suppose as they run on a 60hz cycle current, you can convert voltage but not cycle.
A 50hz would run faster.Too bad because I happen to have 3 motors for a Miele crouzet in my stash that i took from some Miele I have dismantled.
|Post# 1090986 , Reply# 2   9/28/2020 at 06:43 (915 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
|Post# 1090988 , Reply# 3   9/28/2020 at 06:50 (915 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)  || |
|Post# 1090996 , Reply# 4   9/28/2020 at 07:27 (915 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
Donor machines could pop out.
Usually older Miele units in the US goes out for "cheap" mostly because a lot of folks just don't want to do the required electrical works.
Matter is having patience.
Good side of the story is that if it is the timer motor is not hard at all to replace and you may not need to call anybody
|Post# 1090999 , Reply# 5   9/28/2020 at 08:02 (915 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
I guess I will have the same problem the day the timer of my filter flo or the whirlpool will give up on me.
I could though install a 60hz 120v timer motor and wire it in order to pass through a step down converter inside the machine or change the wash motor and turn it into a full 120v 60hz unit then who cares if setting 18minutes i actually get 23-25 and if a 10 mins spin will last 15.
Problem would be if setting 18 mins i get 12.
But you cannot do that for a miele and in reverse so put a 220v 50hz component and run it on 120v 60hz.
I'm not customed to Miele's for US market.
|Post# 1091001 , Reply# 6   9/28/2020 at 08:17 (915 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Won't be sure until can ring up Miele but think timer part number is 02085001.
Do know from nosing around inside this machine over years pretty much everything is 120v/50hz including electronic control board (which oddly is stamped "Made In France"....).
Am waiting for a few bits to arrive so can begin wiring up that huge frequency converter and sort out the AEG Lavamat toplader, so likely won't go looking inside the Miele this week. Have the Maytag wringer, Hoover TT, AEG Lavamat front and toplader so am pretty spoiled for choice. Hahahaha.
Reading up on things last night common advice may have one arranging a call out from Miele, that or must brush up on certain testing before assuming off bat timer motor is gone.
FWIU timers require (and will wait for) certain signals before advancing. This timer will advance after filling (wash or rinse), but not after draining. Also machine will spin if timer is moved to that portion of cycle, but then will advance to stop. Can hear drum doing at least one set of distribution tumbles, then things just stop; that is pump keeps working, but timer does not advance to spin again on its own. If one moves timer it will spin but not advance. Once moved to end of spinning timer will advance to distribution tumble,then click off.
From what one read it is wise to rule out things like relay or something else that is supposed to be sending a signal, but isn't.
Did find one person who had similar issue who replaced timer motor, and it made no difference.
|Post# 1091004 , Reply# 7   9/28/2020 at 08:30 (915 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Miele's call center in India (where one was transferred) informed that have correct part number (02085001), but it is NLA because machine is "old", and Miele no longer manufactures...
Sadly my trusted Miele repair person from Westchester closed down his business, and dealing with Princeton (or wherever was transferred for service) was an exercise in futility.
"Machine is old, and no longer made" he said. "The only models we have now are the W1 series that start at $1,1000.....".
So basically am on my own with this. MieleUSA is obviously doing plenty of WFM with tech support (covid-19), and had no luck reaching any of the "old men" techs that knew these machines.
Tech did offer to set up a call out, but can't see paying $200 for someone to tell me what already pretty much know; timer is bad but Miele doesn't have the part....
Can find timer motors for European cousin of this washer (W770), but they all are 220v/50hz, and one needs 115v/60hz (as per part specifications).
|Post# 1091012 , Reply# 8   9/28/2020 at 09:41 (915 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
So your timer is 60hz as I thought, you before have written 120v 50hz which left me puzzled as options were that they mounted a special rpm reducing gear speed as it would run faster on the 50hz you get on your tension...
From what you tell maybe is indeed only a relay.
Try finding the relay and if not that much costly you might try to replace it.
As a last chance you might try to detach the timer motor and bring it to a clock repair shop or restorer if any nearby, they might find a right replacement for the motor winding.
Some timers also have a capacitor or resistors that can go bad.
Try open the machine and see if you spot some blown components
Unfortunately putting a step up converter to feed an hypothetical european 220v 50hz timer motor will fix the voltage (other than being bigger than step down ones) but not the cycle.
Too bad bevause as I said i have ones i detached from some machines.
|Post# 1091014 , Reply# 9   9/28/2020 at 09:44 (915 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
|Post# 1091015 , Reply# 10   9/28/2020 at 09:51 (915 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
Does your timer look like this?
View Full Size
|Post# 1091020 , Reply# 11   9/28/2020 at 11:26 (915 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
|Post# 1091022 , Reply# 12   9/28/2020 at 11:30 (915 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
|Post# 1091115 , Reply# 13   9/28/2020 at 23:46 (915 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
So far have found this, but not sure it applies to my situation.
|Post# 1091121 , Reply# 14   9/29/2020 at 00:18 (915 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Here is German cousin of my W1070, the W770.
Timer on my washer no longer makes the loud/audible clicking sound (like a clock) as before. It just clicks now and then as portions of time are reached or what not, but timer does not and will not advance on own.
Here is the W765 an earlier machine but basically same.
Here is W1065 (same machine as mine but with porthole instead of solid door. Again mine no longer makes that ticking sound from timer.
|Post# 1091136 , Reply# 15   9/29/2020 at 06:48 (914 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
That link looks like talks about a bad motor capacitor, which is not your case.
Older miele's used an hybrid motor that it is induction and brushes and the brush part is for the high spin speed and needed a capacitor for the induction portion.
A bad capacitor would mean basket not turning and motor humming. But timer still advancing.
Your machine surely have a timer problem and if you do not hear the clock like sound anymore 98% the timer motor is kaput so it does not advance.
Miele machines such as yours are not completely mechanical but they have a control board located in a white box in the corner of the openable front that controls partial phases of the washing and the spin.
The click you hear probably are impulses given to the timer to continue but will not advance missing the motor torque.
Now, that would be a extremely easy fix to take the old motor off and snap in another one, really easy as pie, but the problem here is finding a timer motor that would run on your frequency and voltage.
Miele did make its timers but they were made with parts made by others, crouzet mostly but one has also seen ones made by Ako.
Motors for timers were Crouzet motors so must be the one in your machine.
Miele had made by Crouzet same timer motors as the European machines but that would run on different voltage and cycle but putting out same torque
Now I'm not sure what the approach was from Miele USA techs for a bad timer motor back then but most of them would surely replace the whole timer assembly rather than just the motor, or at least suggest it.
That is what they did for any brands typically.
In Europe that would not be a problem as a Miele techs would surely have a spare timer motor somewhere taking dust in a box but in USA is different story I guess.
If you still have a mobile number of the guy that used to fix Miele's around you even though he closed the business you might try give him a call and ask if he has a timer motor laying around or that he took off from another unit... chances are he didn't get rid of everything or maybe knows of someone who can have one.
They could ecen give you one for free...
A typical customer would not just attempt to fix it and knowing the part is NLA would just say "well it's over".
But we're not the typicaL customers😉
That is what the Miele staff also told you...they do not care anymore of any mechanical models that old.
If not a Crouzet motor you might still be able to adapt a generic timer motor with same torque speed.
Or you might find a Crouzet motor from a dishwasher or an oven, miele dishwashers timers were not different from washers, or you might get a timer motor from another completely different device, crouzet made-makes timers for electrical timers of any sorts, after all a timer motor is a timer motor and they are all similar...
|Post# 1091139 , Reply# 16   9/29/2020 at 07:11 (914 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
|Post# 1091140 , Reply# 17   9/29/2020 at 07:37 (914 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Was up half the night doing some research.
My Miele W1070 is cousin to the European W770 washer.
According to technical/service manual that series did indeed take timers made by Crouzet. They look like the one you posted above.
While it is not possible to open up timer itself for repair, it *may* be possible to swap out timer motor. Say so because found this on eBay Germany
|Post# 1091141 , Reply# 18   9/29/2020 at 07:38 (914 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
|Post# 1091142 , Reply# 19   9/29/2020 at 07:41 (914 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
|Post# 1091143 , Reply# 20   9/29/2020 at 07:47 (914 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
|Post# 1091144 , Reply# 21   9/29/2020 at 07:54 (914 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Know from last time poked around inside Big Bertha the timer and perhaps electronic module have French wording.
However you can see, well you see the timer motor pictured above will accept 50hz or 60hz. Leaving aside what if anything governs change in speed that would come from 10% faster frequency, motor is clearly labeled 220v.
One knows for fact nothing in this washer runs on 220v; this though power requirements state 120v/220v. Aside from powering both legs of heater, the 220v does nothing else. Pump is 120v (had it swapped out and kept the old), and the muet (motor) can be wired to run on 220v, 120v, etc.... it is all the same motor.
Of course this washer has no transformer (why would it?), so don't believe a 220v timer motor will work, It it didn't mind what voltage was received it would state range such as 120v-220v....
|Post# 1091145 , Reply# 22   9/29/2020 at 07:59 (914 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
Also... It may be that it got humidity and got stuck. A light spray of wd 40 will free it.
Worst hypothesis is some of the gears inside the timer also got stuck, hopefully not broken...
First try would be detach the timer motor start the machine and see if the pin turns.
If it turns either you have gears stuck inside that timer or at worst broken but that is the worst possible (and unlikely) scenario.
This is a crouzet from a Zanussi machine.
|Post# 1091146 , Reply# 23   9/29/2020 at 08:00 (914 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Miele hasn't sold a mechanical timer washer in North America since 1992 when production of w1065/w1070 ended. Everything afterwards (W19XX to now W1) are all totally electronically controlled.
Virtually all the old school Miele techs who started out back in 1980's or 1990's who were familiar with these machines from actual experience either have retired, or otherwise moved on. Asked Miele about the last tech who came out to do the suspension repair a few years ago, response was he left as well.
Techs hired since about 2000 or so are only trained on 19XX and above model washers. That information was given about ten years ago so they may not even know 19xx series either.
Ideally an old school tech would have parts wanted in his stash, but finding one would be like a needle in proverbial haystack.
|Post# 1091147 , Reply# 24   9/29/2020 at 08:46 (914 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
I imagined that in the United States could be harder that's why I said in the Undertaker be different story but I thought there could be some old school techs still around.
Taking about the timer motor, I have seen that the one you posted states 50-60hz, but a certain accuracy I think it depends on models for example I think of my w427 and the fact that it only Tumbles 3-4 times before kicking into spin, if it went faster it would jump to spin sooner, but it is also true that machines such as yours are partially electronic and spin and tumble is controlled by the board, it would've been a problem like in a wholly mechanical one.
I know that it doesn't mention a double voltage but maybe that would not be a big problem for a tiny winding such the one of a timer.
Anyways the only thing to do now is to open up your machine look what your timer motor says on the back and possibly try it detached so that you're sure there is nothing wrong inside the timer.
|Post# 1091148 , Reply# 25   9/29/2020 at 08:50 (914 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
|Post# 1091164 , Reply# 26   9/29/2020 at 11:20 (914 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
Anyways again if nothing turns out or we have "happy revelations" about what your timer says I tell you again I have three and they are basically doing nothing inside my house nor will as I plan to move soon and not to grab any Miele's to repair so...I might anyway be more happy to know they went and passed away in a mission in the name of experiment and science rather than lying in the box and being tossed in the trash.
At worst I waist €8 for postage...
|Post# 1091252 , Reply# 27   9/29/2020 at 23:48 (914 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Thank you Kenmoreguy89 for reaching out with your offers of assistance, and kind words of encouragement in general. Very much appreciated...
It's a muggy wet evening so with nothing else shaking popped open the Miele to have a peep.
There are two discs on back of programmer/timer, but don't know which is the motor
Left - Crouzet 82432043 213 2268 60hz
Right - Crouzet 82432035 2267 115v 60hz
Note these parts must be 115v or 120v, as one guessed upthread there isn't a converter in these machines, a 220v part would just fry itself to death.
Found parts diagram for W770 and it does appear as if these two timer "motors" or whatever they are called detach. This makes sense IMHO for a start because Miele was selling what were essentially 120v washing machines in North America. Far cheaper to slap on 120v 60hz timer motors than have entire timers made just for that power system.
This hopefully will give one more options; if can locate just timer motor bits that are 120v/60hz with proper connections a swap might just do trick.
|Post# 1091259 , Reply# 28   9/30/2020 at 01:40 (914 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
The two discs are the two motors your machine mounts...
The left one possibly is the one that failed.
As I suggested the first thing to try will be to detach them and start the machine being careful of course not to touch any of the contacts in the timer as they might be powered as you start the machine and look if they spin or not.
You just need to remove the clamp holding them place .
To research a new one the first thing I would do is to contact who made those.
I already tried to look up on the Crouzet website to see if with the parts numbers given something popped out, it did not but maybe trying contacting them via phone or mail will help locating what you need or something adaptable...
CLICK HERE TO GO TO Kenmoreguy89's LINK
|Post# 1091273 , Reply# 29   9/30/2020 at 02:51 (914 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))  || |
Your's - as far as I understand - only uses the electronics for motor tasks and such.
Dunno if your heater runs over the electronics but might not even be the case.
The 2 timer motors are again as far as I understand a normal "slow" timer motor that does normal advancing (that egg timer sound you are missing) and the rapid advance timer.
Since you describe that the fast clicking forward works, the rapid advance timer motor appears to work.
That egg-timer-noise you describe missing is the normal timer motor that times stuff like for how long to spin etc.
That is just my remote idea of what is going on.
|Post# 1091274 , Reply# 30   9/30/2020 at 02:59 (914 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))  || |
Why not try to contact Crouzet directly?
They might have a replacement or at least know what to look for?
There at least still appears to be a component manufacturer under that name.
|Post# 1091284 , Reply# 31   9/30/2020 at 04:20 (913 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
Exactly! My guess.
Rapid advance timer that works with impulses suposedly on the right works but normal clock timer motor on the left doesn't anymore, the tic tic tic clock sound is not there anymore as she describes.
So as I said I think the first thing to do will be to detach it and see if it works and turns, because if it does or both does and when you put it in does not that means timer inside got stuck somehow at worst broken.
Even though it is unlikely and it is a remote possibility is still is a possibility...and before contacting or putting efforts into trying to find a replacement motor I would do this test.
|Post# 1091287 , Reply# 32   9/30/2020 at 05:03 (913 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Didn't want to mess about removing anything until have a clearer picture of what am dealing with overall. Digging into wiring and other bits of a perhaps nearly thirty year old washer where wiring hasn't been touched since things went in could be a minefield. Also since don't have a clue what am doing, just thought it best to keep "hands in pockets" for time being.
Yes, Crouzet is still around. At the time they supplied Miele, Thompson, Brandt and other European makers of washing machines, dryers, etc... with timers.
Their web cataloge still list synchronous motors from "82432" range as being on offer. But remember Crouzet was a supply vendor; they made these timers to supply Miele or whoever else to suit certain specs (cable length, connections, etc...).
Crouzet like many other supply vendors likely never did nor does sell directly to consumers. But am going to reach out and see if they can supply information about where one might find anyone with supply. Though have a strong hunch they would simply say contact Miele (been there, done that), or another appliance part vendor.
Having spent hours combing various French, German and even Polish spares websites, parts for these 400 and 700 Miele washers are like finding a virgin at a prison rodeo.
|Post# 1091289 , Reply# 33   9/30/2020 at 05:50 (913 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)  || |
Same problem with my Asko....It will wash, rinse, spin, etc...but the timer won't advance. Mine just sits there and tick tick tick tick tick ticks away. Asko used to sell replacement timer motors separately but I can't find them anymore and didn't bother calling SubZero directly since I found a complete timer assembly on ebay...just haven't installed it yet.
|Post# 1091290 , Reply# 34   9/30/2020 at 06:05 (913 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
Launderess, it is just a matter of unclipping the grey metallic clamp holding the timer motor to the timer, you will probably find a star pin-spline on the timer motor as it was typical on miele machines no matter what kind of timer mounted if AKO or Crouzet, I have always found the same kind of pin-spline
My W701 even though mounting an Ako timer still had the same spline.
Unfortunately I think that surfing European spare websites will bring you to nowhere because of the voltage used here and no country in Europe use that voltage, perhaps you might have some luck in Japan (good luck with Japanese) or Latin America spares websites.
You may be lucky contacting Crouzet, I also doubt they sell directly to customer but maybe they can address you to some vendors and I looked at the map and there are plenty in the United States.
Looks like the "82..." or whatever starting with those two numbers are indeed 120-volt timer motors, I don't think they specially made a kind of timer motor only for miele or that particular timer and or others but that was on their catalogues at best they only put the star shaped pin to the motor spline, thing that you can take off and put in the new motor you will get that could come with a simple little spline.
A clock repair shop eventually if not you personally might be able to change it without probs and or crazy costs
|Post# 1091291 , Reply# 35   9/30/2020 at 06:26 (913 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
You seem to have far better luck with your Asko than I've with mine. *LOL*
On another note seem to be right, Miele did have spare timer motors available, well at least for certain models.
This does me no good since it is 220v/240v an in Germany
|Post# 1091331 , Reply# 36   9/30/2020 at 11:41 (913 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
Good discussion, As already stated the two different TMs advance the timer at two different speeds, the fast one for setting up cycles and the slower TM for normal progression though the cycles.
Either 50 Hz or 60 Hz timers motors should work fine, if you use a 50Hz timer motor on 60Hz a ten minute wash will just be shortened to 8 1/2 minutes [ you will get your laundry done faster ].
A 208-240 volt TM will work fine here with a very small step-up transformer, conversely a 120 volt TM will work just fine on 208-240 volts with just a resister wired in the TM supply line, many companies do this on clothes dryer TMs.
|Post# 1091337 , Reply# 37   9/30/2020 at 12:19 (913 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)  || |
In some timer motors you can typically only just change the winding and keep the rotor and its spline, rotor rarely fails, what usually blows out is the winding.
John US gas dryers in Europe and guess Australia or whater 220-240v place they will be exported to indeed use this system, speed Queen dryers have a toroidal transformer inside the panel that feeds timer motor, gas valves, igniter and heat and flame sensors.
Motors are 220v 50hz.
Whirlpool dryers instead have the transformer on the bottom between motor and burner, bad choiche IMHO as it gets covered in lint and might overheat even though they are usually oversized and way over what is usually required in order of watts. Very well made.
US washers timers are a different story
But I already thought ahead in case one of my machine's timers would fail
I will use a little step down by-passed for the motor.
I will get slightly longer cycles but I don't care...
|Post# 1091436 , Reply# 38   9/30/2020 at 23:24 (913 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Who knew such places still existed?
|Post# 1091437 , Reply# 39   9/30/2020 at 23:35 (913 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
"Unfortunately I think that surfing European spare websites will bring you to nowhere .."
Actually turned up a few Miele 120v/60hz parts in Europe from various spares suppliers. None of them what one needs and alas no timers, but never the less.... One place in France even had the huge double cast iron muet/motor (one side washes, other spins).
Suppose these people bought up job lots of Miele surplus or whatever, but I digress...
Playing around with Miele again today and watching cycle dial carefully can see and hear (know the sound) when it wants to move, but doesn't. Sometimes there is a slight movement, others it just sits.
|Post# 1091439 , Reply# 40   10/1/2020 at 00:43 (913 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)  || |
With power off, give the timer a good spray. Turn the timer dial fully round several times nice and slow, let it clunk into every notch before advancing to the next one. This will help spread the cleaner/lube product where it is needed. Leave it for 24 hours for the spray to work its way into nooks and crannies. After the 24 hours, power up and give it a try.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO gizmo's LINK
|Post# 1091461 , Reply# 41   10/1/2020 at 07:06 (912 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
Just connect power to the timer motor and see if the timer advances,
Spraying contact cleaner can help, but most often if I have a balky stiff timer I spray a good silicone lubricant in the timer and turn as Chris suggested above.
I probably have a used timer for one of these washers somewhere as we did part out a few of the many we have sent to the crusher. If I come across one will let you know.
|Post# 1091694 , Reply# 42   10/2/2020 at 17:30 (911 days old) by Jamiew79 (Newcastle )  || |
I unfortunately have the total opposite with my Miele w784, it rapidly advances through the complete cycle When you switch it on and won’t stop until it reaches the end Initially the timer just keeps going round and round but eventually it will advance through the cycle and the stop at the end. I have no idea what’s causing it, whether it’s the timer or something else.
|Post# 1091716 , Reply# 43   10/2/2020 at 19:47 (911 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Heard back from Crouzet, they require information one does not have nor can easily find in order to possibly assist. Things like rpm, spindle diameter, gearing...
All this would have been specified when Miele or whoever placed orders, and obviously company isn't going to give out that sort of information, even if they could lay hands upon. With literally hundreds of permutations of timers "8243" it could be anything.
Meanwhile life keeps tormenting me; someone is throwing away a Miele W1065 on CL, but they haven't responded so assume the thing is gone. Why don't people take adverts down when things are NLA?
Of course can find period proper timer motors from all over Europe, but they are all 220v/50hz
Have found several NOS timers from same period (1980's through early 1990's), but they are all for dishwashers. Know the actual timers wouldn't work in my situation (incorrect cams, etc...), but don't know if the motors would suffice, and cannot find out either. MieleUSA is hopeless, and shan't be bothering with them again on this matter.
Have other things on my plate atm (like getting that huge converter wired up to power the AEG toplader), so won't be opening up the Miele again for now to get at timer.
|Post# 1091717 , Reply# 44   10/2/2020 at 19:49 (911 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
|Post# 1091745 , Reply# 45   10/2/2020 at 22:48 (911 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
At least am gaining better understanding of what's what.
|Post# 1091872 , Reply# 46   10/3/2020 at 20:49 (910 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
This time shut door so could start up washer (forgot Miele techs doing same on each of their (sadly many) service calls); to see what there is.....
First off to settle a matter of some debate on and off regarding age of this washer. Looking around timer for a model and or serial number and not finding any, had to get down on floor to see bottom of unit. There found a sticker saying something about seeing electrical chart for power rating; and date of April 1992.
According to various online sources Miele produced W1065/W1070 (sold in USA only) from 5/1982 - 03/1994. Knowing timer was made in 1992 means this washer could only have been produced between April of that year and March of 1994.
Assume electrical chart referred to is the schematic that should be just behind front door of washer. Miele tech once told us off because he didn't find it there, and accused us of tampering with washer or some such. One did locate the thing later upon subsequent nosing around inside but put it back. Now cannot remember where the darn thing is inside washer. *LOL*
One wonders if Miele didn't bother just making 115v/120v timers for what would have been a comparateivly small market for them at the time. But rather timer is "programmable" to accept power based upon various factors including ratings for timer motors.
With power on started machine up and right timer ticks loudly away and could see gears/cams inside timer rotate.
Left timer is rather quiet but now and then makes audible clicks; sometimes program knob responds (moves to next portion of cycle), other times not.
If one times those clicks, gets things right and manually advance timer cycle will proceed as it should, this especially on spin cycles. If misjudged timer will move "when it should" onto next portion of cycle. At least this happened when messing about with "graduated spin" cycle which does a series of 30 second pulse spins, stops, does a series of distribution spins, pulse spins.....
Maddening thing is Crouzet micro motor timers are avialable all over Europe from spares shops. But these obviously are all 220v/50hz...
Can lay hands on NOS timers for Miele dishwashers from same period that have Crouzet TMs from same 8243 family. But don't know if one or both would work as replacements when plugged onto my washer.
|Post# 1091873 , Reply# 47   10/3/2020 at 20:58 (910 days old) by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)  || |
On my W423 which is earlier, when the advance failed on the timer, it was a failure of the plastic gears inside.
Before you buy any parts, maybe just check whether the motor is still turning when commanded. You might find that something has stripped out internally in the timer and then all the palaver of finding a timer motor will not have been worth it.
|Post# 1091876 , Reply# 48   10/3/2020 at 21:16 (910 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)  || |
You have opened the machine and are "this close." (Said in Maxwell Smart voice.)
Give it a squirt of contact cleaner / lube. (preferably a 2-in-1 product that cleans and lubricates, or just try a silicone lube product.
I strongly prefer a 2 in 1 cleaner / lube, as I said above I have found them to be magic. I even avoided having to buy a $300 brake light switch for my Peugeot car with a short puff of this spray - a bit of burnt muck fell straight out of the switch and problem solved.)
Just make sure the power is off, rotate the knob slowly a couple of times, leave it 24 hours, try it.
What have you got to lose?
As an aside, it is perfectly normal for one timer motor to be activated for very brief bursts.
There is one timer motor which runs a lot. It moves a faster gear inside, so it runs the alternating rotation of the drum during wash. It will have one cam that moves the contacts to reverse the direction of the wash, it will do something like (I'm making this number up) six cycles of left-right, then... its other cam comes into play, this cam will, after the set number of drum reverses, switch on the other timer motor to make the timer increment one step. Once the timer has clicked one increment, the second motor should turn off.
So effectively one motor controls the switching of the other motor.
If you have a sticky, dirty or burned contact, you can get erratic operation of the second motor. Not a motor fault, but a fault in power supply to the motor.
because this is a quick and easy thing to try, you should FIRST lubricate and contact-clean the timer. Only if that fails, spend time/effort chasing a replacement timer motor. Do the easy/cheap stuff first. (IMHO...)
Good luck with it.
|Post# 1092361 , Reply# 49   10/8/2020 at 01:52 (906 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Apparently these timers can be opened to some extent.
My German isn't so good but from following it may be possible to get at cams/gears to swap things out.
|Post# 1093293 , Reply# 50   10/15/2020 at 19:35 (898 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
First and foremost would like to thank those who contacted me privately and or via this thread for all their kind words and assistance. Damn good!
Am going to set aside the Miele for now as nothing can be done until find another timer (NOS or used spare), My worry is continued use will simply cause timer to give out totally, then that will be that.
Have been on telephone and reached out to various places in Europe about timer motor. Crouzet no longer makes strictly 115v/120v 60hz timers, but they did have a dual 120v/220v 50/60 hz version. It is in very short supply and one would have to order about forty to get at them. 220v/50z versions everyone has both in Europe and USA, but that does me no good.
Miele USA is hopeless...
Apparently as of new year 2020 there was a major reshuffle of things and technical support (such as it was) got gutted. That department is staffed by persons who can do nothing more than schedule call outs, period. They seemingly no longer have access to part information or anything else. Days of having a tech walk one through diagnostic troubleshooting and or even installing parts are over. Was informed that such things "apparently caused more troubles than they were worth so Miele has stopped....".
It also seems MieleUSA has outsourced much call center activity to India, at least several calls were always answered by someone with that accent, so draw your own conclusions.
Before begin given bum's rush things were summed up as "your machine is old, over thirty years old; we guarantee parts for 15 years after production which is far longer than anyone else. Try finding parts for a Whirlpool washer that is over 30 years old....".
Responded didn't need to "try" as have NOS parts for a thirty year old Whirlpool washer right in my stash (ordered when had the harvest gold portable/convertible washer). Also fired back that unlike Miele Whirlpool didn't keep such a tight lock on spares so there were and still are plenty floating about.
In any event things seemed to be going nowhere with MieleUSA, so that door is closed. There is a promising German hobbyist website (Teamhack), but my language skills aren't what they should be.
Am not the first to deal with an older Miele washer that has timer issues, so that's me for you...
Will keep my eyes peeled and feelers out for used W765, W1070 or W1065 washer that can be harvested for parts.
|Post# 1093545 , Reply# 51   10/17/2020 at 19:29 (896 days old) by JohnBee (USA, NY)  || |
|Post# 1093548 , Reply# 52   10/17/2020 at 19:50 (896 days old) by JohnBee (USA, NY)  || |
|Post# 1093577 , Reply# 53   10/17/2020 at 23:34 (896 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Thanks for suggestions.
Miele W723 is from an earlier model series than the W765, W770,and W772.
Miele actually made improvements and other changes to timer late in W700 range run for mechanical timer controlled units. Have the service manual which outlines some of them, and suffice to say even if the W723 timer would work in my machine (which it won't due to being 220v/50hz) there are some other differences that would need to be sorted.
Timer motors on that programmer are 220v/50hz as well; can find those new all over Europe. What I need is 115v/60hz.
When one gets down to things frequency likely isn't the largest worry. Things would just be 10% faster on 60hz than 50hz; but am not willing to possibly fry entire timer by plugging in 220v timer motors.
|Post# 1093581 , Reply# 54   10/18/2020 at 00:05 (896 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
Just for the record, the Miele W723 is a later model than those other models. It was one of the first Hydromatic models. Here's a manual.
View Full Size
|Post# 1093589 , Reply# 55   10/18/2020 at 04:00 (895 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
|Post# 1093594 , Reply# 56   10/18/2020 at 04:36 (895 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
Their numbering doesn't make much sense. The model # W423 was used the most I think. They made a lot of models with that number. These are all W423 models, and I think I missed one. Very confusing! Especially the one of a much later series.
|Post# 1093620 , Reply# 57   10/18/2020 at 14:02 (895 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))  || |
There must be a small transformer for electronics projekts thag could be used in this situation.
Dosen't have to be huge, only like a couple of watts.
Do you have an electronics part store somewhere around?
Or maybe online?
|Post# 1093621 , Reply# 58   10/18/2020 at 14:07 (895 days old) by washingpowder (NYC)  || |
Do you think a mechanical dishwasher could be using the same type of motor? Saw it on FB Marketplace and thought about your issues.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO washingpowder's LINK
|Post# 1093663 , Reply# 59   10/18/2020 at 20:38 (895 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Know some newer Miele washer do have small transformers to convert 120v to 220v, at least recall seeing pictures of such posted by a member. For my part don't even know where to start on how to wire such a thing into machine/timer, much less find a place to permanently affix so machine will close and operate normally.
Crouzet made these Programmschaltwerk timers (including motors) for a vast array of washing machines, dishwashers, and dryers sold all over Europe.
From what information have been able to glean from speaking with Crouzet and reading posts over on Teamhack what matters for timer motors is revolutions per minute, spindle, frequency/voltage and of course direction (clockwise or counter-clockwise).
Miele washing machine timers have "green" and "blue" gear wheels. You notice in above pictures timer motors have dots that match color of gear they are mated to fit. I do not know, nor have been able to find out if those colors mean anything. That is are all timer motors 82432 the same, and take their cues from electric signals off programmer; or are there subtle differences.
Need to find the schaltplan for my washer which should have timer programming on one side. Know it is in machine somewhere, but forgot where exactly. Recall finding it once after being told off by a Miele tech it wasn't where it should (had never opened machine prior to that event), but did locate it afterwards in another area of machine. Just cannot recall where, and am in no mood to open up that machine yet again to root about
Timers going wonky with these Miele units is common enough. A few members posted such issues going back (found in archives). None reported back however how they fixed the problem. Well one poor member ended up frying is W423 timer and had to rubbish machine in consequence.
If Father Christmas brings me a multi meter (am not buying any more new tools for duration, *LOL*), maybe once things are quiet over long winter will have both timer motors off to test. If indeed the advancing timer has gone, then at least know what one is dealing with. OTOH if that timer works, then have much larger problems.
Maddening thing is Crouzet made these entire 120v/60hz programmschaltwerk just for Miele to their specs. This explains why after Miele stopped ordering them in supply dried up. Spare part cost dear when MieleUSA had it in stock ($525 USD), but obviously people out there snapped them up.
|Post# 1093695 , Reply# 60   10/19/2020 at 08:45 (894 days old) by JohnBee (USA, NY)  || |
|Post# 1093749 , Reply# 61   10/19/2020 at 15:55 (894 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)  || |
Yes, that is where schematic papers "should" be located, but as have stated on my washer they are not in that location.
First time Miele tech came to my home he looked for schematic where it was supposed to be and told us off because it wasn't. Hadn't opened machine since it arrived (didn't even know how at the time), so responded "I never....", and that was that.
Subsequent issues with washer (and Miele USA's appalling lack of assistance) caused one to open and root about in machine (limited), and found said paperwork. Just cannot remember where.....