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Thread Number: 85956
/ Tag: Detergents and Additives
advantage of additives in detergents |
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| Post# 1105083 , Reply# 1 1/19/2021 at 10:21 (1,193 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea)) | ||
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Post# 1105088 , Reply# 2 1/19/2021 at 10:38 (1,193 days old) by Yogitunes  (New Jersey) |
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depending on soils levels....adding boosters to the wash along with your detergent is never a bad thing....
but nothing special is needed, just the basics.... Ammonia Color-Safe Bleach LCB Vinegar Lysol even has an additive to reduce germs in the wash.....although with proper washing techniques, I dont see this being needed.... | ||
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Post# 1105089 , Reply# 3 1/19/2021 at 11:29 (1,193 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD) |
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Given the way so many people are misusing washing machines now, it is no wonder that detergent manufacturers are trying to control the microbial growth in laundry and in washing machines. | ||
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Post# 1105134 , Reply# 5 1/19/2021 at 15:30 (1,193 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 1105139 , Reply# 6 1/19/2021 at 17:18 (1,193 days old) by imperial70 (MA USA) |
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just a reminder never mix chlorine bleach and ammonia together. Danger Danger. | ||
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Post# 1105147 , Reply# 7 1/19/2021 at 19:06 (1,193 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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First there was "Oxi", now it seems every liquid detergent has latched onto "hygiene" as their latest offering du jour. So if one version of Tide or Persil liquid or pods gets laundry "hygienically clean", does that imply the other dozen or more versions don't?
Am getting fed up with it; in fact despite a ban on bringing more laundry products into this home just nabbed a job lot of older formula Cheer powder. Want something to use on odd loads taken to laundromat and for us in Maytag wringer. Could use any of my European detergents for the latter but have to scale up dosage to match higher water usage for the latter. Then there is fact SQ laundromat washers have short wash cycles, and don't do loads that long in Maytag wringer (forty minutes of thrashing about would leave one with rags...*LOL*). It is amazing that nearly all liquid format detergents listed on EWG have "D" or "F" ratings. Each year list of chemicals in such products grows longer and longer as formulas change to incorporate this or that benefit, much of it marginal IMHO. Back onto OP's query.... What additives or benefits are worth it in long run for one's money depends upon how one does washing, what is being washed and how. Then of course comes various personal preferences... Enzymes have revolutionized wash day, but only are good if they are given enough time to work properly. For European washing machines with their long (and now growing increasingly so) wash cycles, enzymes had and still do have plenty of time to do their thing. With top loaders or even semi-automatics a quick wash for between five to ten minutes might not get things done. Hence early enzyme products were meant as pre-soakers. Something many products still recommend for badly soiled items. On commercial or industrial side of things many still stick to chemicals for shifting marks and soils. They do so because over hundred or so years it has been proven acids, alkalies, bleaches and surfactants will handle a bulk of what comes with soiled laundry. Most of you lot here already know this from adding ammonia (ammonium hydroxide) to wash water for shifting certain soils or stains in particular blood. Commercial laundries would use sodium metasilicate, sodium hydroxide (aka lye), etc... Posted this link before, and am doing so again as it breaks down pretty much what's in Persil (American) and Tide liquid format laundry products. You can see much of things on a long and exhaustive list are either in aid of solving a problem, and or bringing perceived consumer benefit. cen.acs.org/articles/95/i4/PG-He... Huge issue with liquid format laundry products is for most part (except some pods IIRC), they don't contain bleaching agents. Thus liquid detergents have a vast and bewildering list of chemicals and other additives meant to provide a solution to that problem In other words substances that will remove or lighten stains, whiten and brighten, freshen, cope with odors, sanitize, etc.... Also keep in mind with wash temps decreasing for host of reasons, one part of wash pie has been affected (thermal action). Thus the remaining portions; chemical, time, water amount must be adjusted to manage. In this instance it is "chemicals" that have been adjusted. One reason for lengthy list of chemicals and various additives in modern laundry products, (especially liquids) is to cope with lower wash temps and less (if any) use of chlorine or even oxygen bleaches. Years ago detergent directions stated if washing in cool or cold water that dosage amounts should be increased. You don't see that today because modern products are already stronger to cope with fact it is expected wash will be done at ambient or cold temperatures. | ||
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Post# 1105193 , Reply# 8 1/20/2021 at 09:18 (1,192 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Vinegar: I only sometimes add it to the final rinse, as a way to remove last traces of typically alkaline laundry detergents. But to protect washers parts, I add just a small amount of vinegar.
I don't know how vinegar would help if added to the detergent at the start of the cycle. I would think it would interfere with the detergent. | ||
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Post# 1105225 , Reply# 9 1/20/2021 at 10:54 (1,192 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Warning About Vinagar | ||
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Post# 1105264 , Reply# 10 1/20/2021 at 15:40 (1,192 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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General public latched onto vinegar as a final rinse ...
Years ago after some bright blub pointed out that commercial laundries use sours in final rinse. Adding vinegar is supposed to decrease lint, make things softer, replace fabric softener.... Not all of this is true and the stuff can cause more problems than it solves.
First and foremost it was known for ages in commercial laundry circles that if one used a neutral soap (or later detergent), without excess free alkali there wasn't a need to use any sort of sour in rinses. Where such substance was required there are other acids available on that side of things (formic, oxalic, etc...) that do the job better than acetic. Then there is fact acids can harm cotton, linen and some other fibers. Household vinegar is diluted to about five (5%) acidity. Adding small amount in relation to volume of water in washer likely will have various (if any) results laundry wise. OTOH using larger amounts is another matter. There you not only run risk of harming washer parts but textiles as well. Remember if there isn't any excess alkali for a "sour" rinse to work upon it will not be neutralized and thus find something else to work upon. Commercial/industrial washing machines are made from parts designed to withstand the often harsh highly acidic or base chemicals used. Domestic washing machines OTOH usually are not. This is one reason why products sold for strictly commercial laundering are marked "for industrial use only". What kills me is people going on about using vinegar in final rinse when they've used a liquid detergent to "kill suds" or "act as fabric softener", or even better "remove detergent residue". Not a bit of it is true because due to nature of acids, and more to point since a liquid product was used there wasn't any alkali (washing soda, sodium metasilicate, sodium hydroxide, etc...) in large amounts that need neutralizing. Above is one reason why commercial/industrial laundries have moved over to liquid products and or at least neutral wash products to get away from needed to use a sour rinse. This saves not only steps, but water and chemicals as well. This post was last edited 01/20/2021 at 18:03 | ||
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Post# 1105344 , Reply# 11 1/21/2021 at 03:41 (1,191 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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@ OP
"is there any advantage to using anything other than an "original" formula of a liquid detergent?" I think no one but the manufacturers can really tell and they won`t tell you because they want to sell all the flankers that come with their "originals" Of course we can compare ingredients lists and look for the number of enzymes and so on but then we`re still in the dark because we don`t know if expensive ingredients are also present in a sufficient quantity to do a good job. Even consumer magazines do not always consider each and every aspect. For example Tide pods in the US are rated good while last time tested in Germany Ariel pods (P&G`s TOL brand in the EU) were rather poor because a lot of dirt redeposited back on fabrics. As to vinegar in the rinse, has anybody ever smelled fresh silicone caulk? It smells like vinegar. I could imagine vinegar as a solvent in this stuff because once it`s dry and hardened the smell is gone. Modern washer parts are made of silicone rubber instead of latex based rubber because silicone rubber is not susceptible to oils and grease. This might explain why acetic acid is a big no no in a washing machine. | ||
| Post# 1107322 , Reply# 12 2/9/2021 at 08:48 (1,172 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
Vinegar trend.
I absolutely agree with John and Landeress.
I don't know who put around the vinegar thing, but one thing is for sure, people most of the times don't know what they do, they believe and do whatever they read online lacking basic chemistry notions. Click bait home improvement websites as well as "green-tree huggers" websites are the major responsibile shooting around BC's. Vinegar maybe good to kill left alkalinity in clothes due to the use of very alkaline detergent, it's also good to kill mineral precipitations build up clothes due to the very alkaline solution. But in most of occasions is not needed.Acid rinse is not even a softener itself, and it shouldn't be called as such, technically speaking it will be more like a reconditioner, meaning that it reconditions clothes to the natural softness whenever it has to reconditioned, say alkaline residues or mineral build-up. Said thisit should never be mixed with powder detergent as it neutalize the water softening properties of the detergent, and most decent domestic detergent are very balanced to be just right. As Launderess said it also kills me to see people using vinegar when using a liquid, anti does more harm than good not only to close that machines as acid running nothing to attack it will attack rubber. And rubber will start to get to soft and peel off and disintegrate. That's also what happens when you use too much or too often dishwasher cleaner with acid or you run too much descaling cycles and a lot of people today do that both in washing machine and dishwasher to clean them as they stink but of course without even knowing what they're doing because at best they have lotta gunk due to liquid use but not much mineral. Anyway speaking of vinegar you have people using it for everything today, even as a rinse aid. LOL Just like softener it doesn't do what rinee aid is supposed to do so create a film on dishes in order to have water drops dropping and not create residue hence dry faster. That creates harm to the dishwasher as the acide water left in pipes ruins rubber and rinse aid dispensers gets trashed in no time solenoid gets bad and won't gold anymore the product, the constant contact and even more the fact that it warms up during the cycle makes dispenser destroy past and at best vinegar will create the mother inside the dispenser. Today with the green spree you see very misleading instructions on cleaning vinegar as well as citric acid packages, products that are advertised to be green and natural. | ||
| Post# 1107323 , Reply# 13 2/9/2021 at 08:53 (1,172 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Launderess, I was reading from you about pods-caps containing oxygen, if you recall it can you name a brand that does?
We know that the reason why liquids don't contain oxygen bleach it's because you cannot combine enzymes and peroxide in high volumes in a liquid solution as during the shelf time peroxide would denaturate enzymes, if kept separate like in a multi pouches pod they could do. I just found one and liquid detergent containing oxygen and of course it didn't have enzymes. | ||
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Post# 1107328 , Reply# 14 2/9/2021 at 09:32 (1,172 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Believe have always said pods don't contain oxygen bleach. But am getting on so maybe did mention something, please refresh memory by posting a bit of quoted material.
Thanks... Now there are pods that are just oxygen bleach with some enzymes and other bits. These are added with detergent, not on their own. tide.com/en-us/shop/type/laundry... | ||
| Post# 1107335 , Reply# 15 2/9/2021 at 09:57 (1,172 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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| Post# 1107338 , Reply# 16 2/9/2021 at 10:14 (1,172 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Oh and I meant if you knew of some all-liquid pods.
Of course we do have Combi pods, powder+liquids, Dixan and so Persil for instance do have a version of Duo-caps and those do contain the oxigen stuff in powder form. But there are others I was curious to know if you knew some because the only sense I can actually find in the pods is that you can keep ingredients separate. I am afraid though that inside the pouch the oxygen part would cause the pod to burst. I say this because I noticed that many oxygen additives in gel form do have a vent under the cap top, guess that is because if stored in a place too hot oxygen will be released and could cause the bottle to explode. Anyway, in the past do existed liquid detergent with a double compartment that you add to pour at the same time, one side had what the other couldnt contain. Of course today the detergent makers wants people to buy separate additives as it means more profit for more products sold, OTOH is also true that in some loads certain ingredients may be just a surplus. | ||
| Post# 1107339 , Reply# 17 2/9/2021 at 10:19 (1,172 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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| Post# 1107343 , Reply# 19 2/9/2021 at 11:28 (1,172 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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In Italy and in all western countries for that matter they get away with mentioning "Hygiene" hence hygienize-r or sanitize, also playing with graphics so putting a cross etc...
They give the impression the product is disinfecting or can disinfect and by all means does not. They do that wirh laundry detergents and pretty much all products for the house. However, by analazing the words used and how they put things down you get ehat is what, hygienize or sanitize,they means make something more hygienic or sanitary. Plain soap itself is something that makes something more hygienic and sanitary, and that is by cleaning it, both terms according to all dictionaries can simply mean 'cleaning" and naturally all detergents will clean. In a courtroom you cannot accuse them of fraud or misleading information, that's because the actually never stated they can and do disinfect, at best they will say it reduces bacteria, and again even soap by removing the dirt which causes bacteria. All the rest is just in the head of the consumers and the easiness with which they can be manipulated with using words and graphics into believing something they never said plain and clear, especially as people goes more and more shallow about consuming and yes, ignorant. Which is funny, people today are more schooled than they were before but much more ignorant and mindless and attentive. Yet you have people that thinks that with cleaning something with that spray it will be is infected like a surgeon table just because it says "hygenic plus" on it with a nice red cross next to it. | ||
| Post# 1107344 , Reply# 20 2/9/2021 at 11:31 (1,172 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Post# 1107347 , Reply# 21 2/9/2021 at 12:10 (1,172 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Freddy, Persil Power Mix Caps do not contain any bleaching agents not even in the powder section.
Don`t know why they don`t (or didn`t), maybe they were afraid of spot bleaching if someone uses them in an old Indesit which had a static heating phase after a rather short initial tumbling. Maybe they found the tiny amounts of oxygen bleach that could be incorporated into the small standard size of a pod isn`t worth to bother because it wouldn`t do much anyway. There`s still Arm and Hammer pods, but they aren`t that great... "I would be interested to see the review" Here you go! The results aren`t for free unfortunately because the test is rather recent. CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrboilwash's LINK | ||
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Post# 1107348 , Reply# 22 2/9/2021 at 12:11 (1,172 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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| Post# 1107370 , Reply# 23 2/9/2021 at 14:31 (1,172 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Oh really? I was sure they had it. Never used them myself, I just recall having seen them at the store and online
Must have misread and or confused optical whiteners. I have one of those Indesit you are talking about, a L5, stupid machine indeed, because of that system and the ascending descending regulated by the spin button. This system ruins it IMO. Anyway I don't know if this is the reason, oxygen bleach don't typically bother unless is a crappy dye and I mean, you got a plethora of additive products in tablet form. Even stuff like Napisan which is a tablet like DW's ones and is advised to put one in every load. From Henkel: I recall Sil tablets of old...color safe, and if one still had to have an Indesit was sure more likely back then than now. Probably you're right about the little percarbonate quantity that could be in there which I did not think of. They look quite tiny indeed, so likely that is the reason. | ||
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Post# 1107410 , Reply# 24 2/9/2021 at 20:57 (1,172 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Have a stash of older Tide "Boost" pods, some still in original packets, and all are fine.
With a dedicated bleach disc or pod you can have enough product for an average load. Then of course there is the usual advice on dosage for such things, use two for larger or heavily soiled washing. As stated there isn't much room in detergent discs/pods even if a separate chamber is created for powder product. Suppose it is possible to use a very concentrated bleach formula, but that might prove to be costly. Industrial/commercial laundry products like Ecolab use dispenser systems offer both liquid and solid oxygen bleach that takes rather small amounts for 50lb, 60lb, 100lb, etc... loads. Sales rep calibrates things for machine and that's that. But those products are very expensive and not sold for domestic use. | ||
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Post# 1107412 , Reply# 25 2/9/2021 at 21:03 (1,172 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Oxygen bleach *will* harm dyes on coloured items
Best dyes or lower quality, it doesn't matter.
Under proper conditions sodium percarbonate, sodium perborate and even liquid hydrogen peroxide will "bleach" coloured items leaving marks not unlike what happens with chlorine bleach. This is one reason why makers of various oxygen bleach products advise not pouring such products on top of clothing (such as when using a top loading washer) but into drum first. This and standard directions for testing items for colourfastness before using product. Considering wash day skills of many nowadays can see how a pod or disc with oxygen bleach could cause all sorts of problems. Way people cram washers full of clothing so things can't freely move about comes to mind. Then you have fact washers use much less water than previously. If pod/disc cannot dissolve easily you're going to have product in contact with fabrics. Should that go on long enough (easily done with today's wash cycles that take ages), you can see chances for problems. | ||
| Post# 1107439 , Reply# 26 2/10/2021 at 09:17 (1,171 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Well I actually do think that the quality of the dye matters, and not marginally.
And that is something you will not get always or on any garment actually. But I see how a overpacked washer may pose a risk in that sense. And I could see the concern of damages But again... Products such as vanish have indications to be used as a pre treaters by creating a paste with hot or warm water. And of course in commercials you see the happy housewife putting the paste over the coloured items. And nowhere is advised not to use them on colors. Not to forget the gel form and the plethora of colour safe bleaches around since decades where you used to see the young woman pouring the bottle over the colors and granny behind being scared but nothing happens. Of course you also always have indications to try in a hidden corner first to verify the strength of the fabric's dye, so in case of damage they will say "eh but we warned you to try first in a hidden corner". I've seen that myself, for example my sister's that worked with acids, some clothes would suffer if drops would hit them, others (most) just nothing. And I'm talking about cottons, not synthetics which seems to be less susceptible to bleaching. So it means some dyes are less bothered by oxidation hence bleaching of peracetic acid or chlorine and my findings are that most are not bothered. And considering that oxygen is by far less aggressive and fast acting than chlorine there you go. Besides, I say again that there are many additives in a pouch form, or powder cap form, i recall who knows "omino bianco" caps, and are relatively small caps, also, can still be found oxygen laden (15 to 30℅ oxygen) detergent tablets that suggested to put them inside the drum while using a h axis Toploader ( which I don't really know why since they also have drawers). The suggestion to put the product first is something we read pretty much in every pod package now regardless of what they contain. But since is no news that sometimes some complaints of undissolved pods comes about then I see where we go with the argument. | ||
| Post# 1107443 , Reply# 27 2/10/2021 at 10:14 (1,171 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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Worded that wrongly. | ||
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Post# 1107460 , Reply# 28 2/10/2021 at 12:07 (1,171 days old) by Fisherpaykel (BC Canada) |
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Launderess "getting on?" Haha no Launderess I beg to differ, you and we are are not getting on but more experienced and sometimes it takes a bit of time to recall that accumulated knowledge! Hopefully while still on that topic of discussion and not an hour later. | ||
| Post# 1107544 , Reply# 29 2/11/2021 at 00:06 (1,170 days old) by qsd-dan (West) | ||
I prefer all of my additives to be separate.
I don't want STPP is my cold dark/bright loads. That stuff will fade these colors in a jiffy. I don't want oxy bleaches in my cold or warm loads. Junk clothes are fine, but long term use fades colors and it's not that effective in cooler temps. I'd go so far to say its effectiveness doesn't really shine until 155F. Ammonia is fine in all loads but it's caustic and hard on metal/porcelain parts. I try to use it sparingly these days. Ammonia is compatible with oxy bleaches, which is convenient. I quit using chlorine bleach 13 years ago and don't miss it what-so-ever. I tried vinegar in the rinse a few times. There's a noticeable difference but not enough to make it worth using on a regular basis. Borax works ok but I found STPP does a better job and rinses out MUCH easier. Then there's temperature limitations. Using bio detergents in temps above 130F will kill off enzymes. I don't want powdered detergent in my cold washes, it fades colors. I use it exclusively in warm/hot loads though. Some of products don't play nice when mixed. Using a detergent with oxygen bleach and adding chlorine bleach will cancel each other out. Using chlorine bleach at the beginning of a wash cycle will immediately kill enzymes off when a bio detergent is used. Please don't go mixing ammonia and chlorine bleach together! A good portion of the these products shouldn't be used by those on a septic tank. | ||
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Post# 1107619 , Reply# 30 2/11/2021 at 14:25 (1,170 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 1107678 , Reply# 32 2/12/2021 at 00:40 (1,169 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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In the mid 80s when we still had those huge boxes of phosphate based powders just like today approximate percentage of the most important ingredients were printed on the boxes.
I think to recall that all the heavy duty "Vollwaschmittel" like Persil, Ariel or OMO had about 15% of phosphates. The light duty "Feinwaschmittel" brands intended for delicates, non-colorfast clothes and so on like Korall, Fewa, Rei and Perwoll had about 30% of phosphate content, but they were buffered, which means they were almost neutral in pH. Maybe this made all the difference why this huge amount of phosphate had little ill effect on colors, I don`t know. I don`t know why heavy duty detergents had way less phosphates, maybe they`ve already reduced it because of environmental concern or maybe it was just to have more room in the formula for other ingredients like washing soda and oxy bleach. | ||
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Post# 1107679 , Reply# 33 2/12/2021 at 01:03 (1,169 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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It took scientists at P&G a great deal of time and much effort to create "Tide" synthetic detergent from the formula they licensed from I.G. Farben.
Answer to your query Mr. Boil Wash may be contained wherein: "Despite the fits and starts and constant strains, Byerly was making progress. By 1941, he had concluded that the best builder was sodium tripolyphosphate. More importantly, Byerly had a counterintuitive breakthrough. All previous research on soaps and detergents had shown that reducing the amount of builder in a formula yielded a less harsh product (and it was the harshness of products with builder that hamstrung the project for so many years). Like his predecessors and colleagues, Byerly at first tried to keep the proportion of surfactant—the actual cleaning agent—as high as possible. But when he inverted the ratio by boosting the level of builder well above the amount of surfactant, he got a surprising result: The detergent cleaned well without leaving clothes stiff and harsh. After a great deal of trial and error, Byerly determined that the correct formula was one part active detergent, alkyl sulfate, to three parts builder, sodium tripolyphosphate. No one could figure out why it worked, but it worked". www.acs.org/content/acs/e... From my limited German it seems as if "Joanna" touts fact that FEWA is a "neutral" detergent. This means it was suitable for cleaning woolens, silks and other fine laundry, but also could tackle other light duty cleaning around home. All without being harsh on milady's hands in those days before washing up gloves. | ||
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Post# 1107680 , Reply# 34 2/12/2021 at 02:14 (1,169 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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| Post# 1107681 , Reply# 35 2/12/2021 at 03:09 (1,169 days old) by qsd-dan (West) | ||
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What is the mechanism by which STPP fades colors?
I can't answer that question but in my early days of experimenting with phosphates, the use of it would turn the wash water extremely dark, generally the color of the items being washed. There was also noticeable fading of dark colors, particularly with long term use. I was using a good detergent back then and had a temper valve set to 85F so phosphates weren't compensating for improper laundering methods. I also made (and still make) a huge effort not to get cold wash items dirty...basically office dust. There were a few other members in the past who commented about similar results, I remember Toggleswitch being one of them.
If phosphates works for those here in cold water items without any issues, ignore my post and carry on. I'm just commenting about my specific findings. For those like me who keep and wear the same clothes for the long-haul (I wear the same clothing for decades), I would recommend testing phosphates on some cheap/junk dark items before making it a long term habit. | ||
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Post# 1107686 , Reply# 36 2/12/2021 at 04:51 (1,169 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 1107691 , Reply# 37 2/12/2021 at 06:05 (1,169 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT) |
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I just recently brought some ammonia, What do you guys use it for in the wash? | ||
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Post# 1107695 , Reply# 38 2/12/2021 at 07:33 (1,169 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Phosphates and fading of textiles.....
Have to admit haven't been able to find anything that explicitly backs up that claim. Don't use STPP with all laundry, only whites and even then more so when using that Persil soap in my stash. Find TOL European detergents both liquid and powders perform well enough on their own. Ammonia in laundry... Household liquid ammonia is merely the gas ammonium hydroxide suspended in water. The whiff you get from the stuff is that gas escaping from liquid back into air. Ammonium hydroxide has a pH of about 11.2 making it one of the weaker bases used for laundry. In comparison soda ash (washing soda) is 11.26, sodium metasilicate is 12.62, sodium hydroxide (lye) is 12.88, trisodium phosphate is 12.12, and borax is only 9.05. PH scale is logarithmic meaning that a substance above or below another can be 10 to 100 times more base or acidic. In terms of cleaning and laundry use base substances have been used for centuries. Everything from ashes from trees and plants to urine. Romans used urine to brush their teeth as well as for cleaning textiles. Base substance mixed with fats or oils causes saponification which is part of the cleaning action. Quick lime is poured over dead bodies to hasten decomposition by that process. For textiles washing at a base pH level causes various natural textile fibers to swell thus releasing dirt and soils. This is the other part of why various substances are used to raise the pH of wash water. Note all soaps in water solution are alkaline, but not all detergents which can range from neutral to either slightly acidic to various levels of base (alkaline) Ammonia being a weaker base is used because it will "break" soils and oils from fabrics, but not cause as much damage as say sodium hydroxide, washing soda or TSP. For generations it was advised to use ammonia when washing woolens such as blankets because if used in proper amounts it shouldn't cause harm. Commercial laundries long have and still do use a range of "breaks" and builders that are highly alkaline. These products are *NOT* meant for use in domestic/homestyle washing machines. Such appliances are often made from soft metal parts that will corrode with constant exposure to such harsh chemicals. Commercial/industrial machines are made from high quality stainless steel and other metals designed to withstand repeated exposure to harsh alkalies and acids. Before enzymes laundry was largely based upon chemistry; alkalies were used for certain soils and stains, acids for another. Hospital laundry with blood stains in UK was routinely done with nothing more than soap, sodium metasilicate and perborate bleach. Ammonia or any other base will remove blood as well. Asian attendants at local laundry have gotten on the ammonia bandwagon. Have seen them pour one-third to half bottle of the stuff into machines when doing service washes. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia_so... www.labmanager.com/lab-he... | ||
| Post# 1107723 , Reply# 39 2/12/2021 at 11:19 (1,169 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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| Post# 1107726 , Reply# 40 2/12/2021 at 11:47 (1,169 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.) | ||
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I mean...
Phosphates if used as an additive with modern detergents do actually create a alkaline harsh overload in the washing solution. That's especially true if you have soft water. Phosphates in detergents as our dear Launderess said were used as the main builder and water softener but since they have been phased out detergents had been reformulated to have other ingredients doing what phosphates used to do, which of course are alkaline substances. Say simple carbonates or stuff like phosphonates polycarboxylates or the zeolites. So again especially if used as an additive with a low water hardness then I see how certain items may suffer from that | ||
| Post# 1107739 , Reply# 41 2/12/2021 at 13:41 (1,169 days old) by qsd-dan (West) | ||
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Now we're getting somewhere!
During the time of my experiments, the water used was definitely on the hard side, so that rules out over soft water conditions.
Cheap dyes are a strong possibility, especially in this day and age of maximizing profits by minimizing quality. I'm assuming articles that call for warm water washing use much higher quality dyes which solves the mystery behind the lack of fading in articles exposed to both warm water washes (my "warm" setting is 120F) and use of phosphates. That also solves yet another mystery I've been pondering why most all articles made today (particularly trousers) call for cold water washing only...cheap dyes/cheap materials. "Phosphates if used as an additive with modern detergents do actually create a alkaline harsh overload in the washing solution." This solves a 3rd mystery. The majority of us here in the US are adding phosphates to modern detergents without compensating for alkaline conditions. A big thanks goes out to Launderess and Kenmoreguy89! | ||
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Post# 1107755 , Reply# 42 2/12/2021 at 15:44 (1,169 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA) |
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My grandfather worked with Monsanto in the immediate post-WW2 years on All. He'd worked before the war as a chemical engineer in Buffalo, NY; I'm not sure exactly for whom, but apparently having something to do with surfactants as my grandmother would tell of parlor tricks going on in the kitchen with the washing-up after they entertained, impressing all her lady-friends with oodles and oodles of detergent suds in the dishpan (soap powder would have been what was used at the time). My grandmother did mention that the scent was not too pleasant. After the war (during which he worked on uranium processing technology in Huntsville, AL) he worked with Monsanto in Dayton, OH and with a soap company in Cincinnati (Fischer) presumably on process stuff having to do with soap and detergent production. He spent most of his later career developing chemical plants and processes. He was great fun, as after retirement he taught at the junior college level and so there was always fun practical chemistry stuff to experiment with around. I treasure a memory of making my grandmother a steamer basket for vegetables out of a bleach bottle, and figuring out if we could use it by experimenting by boiling pieces of a Clorox bottle.
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Post# 1107756 , Reply# 43 2/12/2021 at 15:45 (1,169 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA) |
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They lived later in life in suburban Chicago, so his early work in phosphates was not used as they had to convert to no-phosphate detergents early. My grandmother ended up using the "5 gallon bucket" type detergent loaded with soda ash and her Maytag's lint filter was horribly encrusted with limescale.
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Post# 1107794 , Reply# 44 2/13/2021 at 00:16 (1,168 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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STPP is a very weak base with pH of about 10, which is just above borax. When properly dosed for amount of water and hardness cannot see how it would raise pH level of solution to point of causing damage.
However there is another issue; modern built laundry detergents largely have successfully replaced phosphates. Yes, the list of substances is great, but there you are; adding too much of phosphates or any other builder in excess of requirements will likely cause more harm than good. In all but the hardest water modern TOL and even some MOL or BOL detergents cope perfectly well. Owners manual for my newish AEG toplader echos advice given by European consumer groups and others; anti-limescale products are not required if correct dosage of a good detergent is used. If one is going to add phosphates (or any other builder) in addition to detergent then it is important to adjust dosage of latter. Otherwise you've got chemicals/substances already in detergent with largely nothing to do. Adding more sequestering agents (STPP), when a detergent already has them in abundance mean something must give. Our area has very soft water, and have found not much benefit nowadays from adding STPP when using Persil, Miele or other TOL detergents. Washing in too soft water can cause issues. People add phosphates to their wash, then find things are going grey,so they add more STPP which doesn't help. | ||
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Post# 1108146 , Reply# 45 2/15/2021 at 22:00 (1,165 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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It is true that STPP is not as alkaline as, say the usual builder known as Sodium Carbonate (washing soda).
I have never seen STPP fade colors. I'm not sure, either, that adding a tablespoon or so of STPP to an HE detergent powder will do any harm whatsoever. And I've never found it so to do, although these days I add STPP, let it mix in, then enough liquid HE detergent to create a very thin layer of suds. The results are generally most excellent. I don't add STPP to soft items like bath towels because being an alkaline salt of phosphate, it can linger and create a harsher final result. Usually these are very lightly soiled and a bit of liquid HE detergent is all that's needed to cleanse them. On stuff like clothing I may add some standard fabric softener to the final rinse to help remove any lingering STPP or other alkali and soften the final result. I generally won't add fabric softener to things that are supposed to be absorbent, because the softener can interfere with that capability. Generally speaking, the least amount of any laundering product needed to get acceptable results is best. YMMV | ||
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