Thread Number: 86175  /  Tag: Vintage Automatic Washers
Who would be interested in getting new Maytag pitman agitator shafts?
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Post# 1107329   2/9/2021 at 09:40 (1,158 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        

I want to have some made. Itís a shame that one little part could keep a rebuilt Maytag from going another 40 years. I have some questions for you all:

1. Any benefit/ drawback from having it made in stainless steel?

2 can I get a show of hands so I can gauge interest. Itís going to be really expensive to have one made, but once itís mapped out a cnc machine could crank out many. Hopefully this can dilute the cost.

I have some experience doing this. A few years ago I had a vintage stove knob remade. It cost $4,000 to have the mold made, but then the knobs cost $5 each to make.

Full disclosure: I am a business and I intend to sell these at a profit. However, anyone who gets in at the initial batch will be able to get them at the absolute cost.

Ie. Letís say it costs $5000 to produce 100 shafts. The initial group will have the first Choice to buy at $50 each. (Plus a bit of shipping) I donít really see the point of making more than 100 as I believe that could be a 50+ year supply.

Let me know your thoughts

Eugene





Post# 1107334 , Reply# 1   2/9/2021 at 09:56 (1,158 days old) by swestoyz (Cedar Falls, IA)        
Maytag 2-730 agitator shaft

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I'd be up for a few and could lend an NOS to help make up the tooling. The machining of the shaft itself should be straight forward with a few tool changes in a CNC end mill, except for the collar. Depending on the machine shop making these, it may be easier to do what Maytag did and press the collar on the finished shaft, rather than trying to machine the assembly as a whole.

I see no issue with the shaft being stainless on an integral spline agitator, however it might not play well with the diecast splined agitators (pre 1968). Bronze bearings are holding the shaft on both ends so the trans case shouldn't be an issue.

The videos I've watched of guys cutting what would be the the reliefs for the spline are fascinating.

Of quick note - the AMP transmissions use a different shaft, PN 2-9, so this effort would be purely for the helical drive/pitman arm transmissions.

Ben




This post was last edited 02/09/2021 at 10:23
Post# 1107342 , Reply# 2   2/9/2021 at 11:28 (1,158 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)        
304 stainless ....

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Is about the best for corrosion resistance but I'm not sure how hardened it is. I know lots of the stainless hardware we used on Thermo-King units was pretty soft and would break easy. I'm sure that shaft wouldnt break but wonder if it would bend slightly over time from torque if not hardened enough. Are those shafts a stock bar size diameter that require little to no machining, just cutting the splines?

Post# 1107364 , Reply# 3   2/9/2021 at 13:36 (1,158 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        
Not sure

Itís splined at the top and a hole through the shaft on the other end. There is also a bushing that would need to be pressed in. I think it would be easy enough to replicate

Post# 1107376 , Reply# 4   2/9/2021 at 14:57 (1,158 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

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I contemplated doing this for sometime now. It's ridiculous that these washers are being junked over a relatively small shaft. However, replacement of the shaft is just one step of the process. Those 2 sleeve bearings absolutely need to be replaced (the upper being the most crucial). When the shaft is tore up, the sleeve bearings will indicate even more wear as they're a softer metal. Slapping a new shaft into worn bearings is not the answer to long life and quiet operation....something I learned the hard way early on.

There are other obsolete parts that need to be taken into consideration which will need to be sourced/designed in order to round out a proper rebuild. The groove pin that holds shaft in place is one of them. This is a one time use part and long obsoleted now. The nylon pinion gear becomes a weak area after 30/40/50+ years and needs replacement. The 2 clutch washers are another. The steel washer usually holds up fine unless the washer has seen a lot of the mileage (check for wear), but the brass washer absolutely needs to be replaced each and every time.

We haven't even got into the logistics of servicing. Removing and installing the groove pin is the trickiest part of the rebuild. The post 1974 upper transmission housing with the newer full length upper pinion upper gear is relatively easy when it comes to knocking the groove pin out. However, the pre '75 models can get really hairy. The pre 1966 models are an absolute bloody nightmare (I'm holding back every 4 letter word here!!). The further back one goes, the tighter the groove pin fits. The manual calls for hammering out the grove pin with a punch but this is a good way to crack the agitator shaft (it will crack at the collar). Pounding on the groove pin (removal or installation) can also destroy the soft metal sleeve bearings (they will become oblong). The most successful way I found to remove and install without destroying the shaft or bearings is pressing the groove pin out both in the removal and installation process. I came up with some wild and crazy ways of executing this, most I won't mention because they would be considered extremely dangerous by todays standards (we live in that kind of world now).

I toyed around with sourcing parts and providing an upper transmission housing rebuild service. Sourcing a new shaft, groove pin, sleeve bearings (already did that but was 9 years ago), fabing up a jig to the hold the upper transmission housing in place and using a large press to remove and the install the groove pin. As long as the housing was fine (no cracks), threads for the stem seal good, and the metal pinion gear was not worn, the upper housing can be successfully rebuilt. As mention above though, other parts need to be sourced for the lower housing (nylon pinion, brass/steel clutch washers, o-ring seal).

This would end up being a rather costly endeavor all around and I feel there isn't quite enough interest in these machines for one to go through that kind of hassle.


Post# 1107451 , Reply# 5   2/10/2021 at 11:28 (1,157 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

lowefficiency's profile picture
Dan hit the nail on the head. Couldn't agree more.

When we rebuilt the transmission in my mother's A308, finding parts was huuuge challenge. It took months of searching, and despite living only a few hours away from where these machines were originally manufactured, we still had to import parts from half way around the globe to finish it.

I hate to say it, but with the logistics of sourcing parts, buying and fabricating tools, and then the labor on top, it's not really any big surprise that so many people here recommend finding a donor machine and just running that transmission until it dies, instead of rebuilding what they have.


HOWEVER, all is not lost.


Where I think there is still a solid business opportunity, is in selling rebuilt transmissions ready-to-go. Maybe even that's a partnership between Dan and Eugene. Maytag knew decades ago that it wasn't economical for field repair folks to be rebuilding transmissions - it's even worse today. But if *you* rebuild them, then it's a slam dunk for customers. It's a one-day search and buy, to fix their beloved washer, rather than the countless hours of time/energy/muscle/luck to rebuild a transmission themselves.

You could sell partial rebuilds, where you split the case, check the seals, and reassemble with fresh oil if the donor was in acceptable condition. And you could sell full rebuilds, with the new bushings pressed in. You guys in the appliance business are tripping over donor machines. But for anyone else, finding one, assessing its condition, hauling it home, taking it apart, and hauling the rest away is a lot of time and effort for an unknown result. If we just need, say, a replacement for a cracked gear - we can't just grab one from the shelf. But perhaps you could.

Just a thought!


Post# 1107454 , Reply# 6   2/10/2021 at 11:36 (1,157 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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>> Depending on the machine shop making these, it may be easier to do what Maytag did and
>> press the collar on the finished shaft, rather than trying to machine the assembly as a whole.


That's something that's really fascinating about machine shops.

I saw a part once, where a comparatively giant block of metal was being machined down, pass after pass, into something just a fraction of the original. Why not cut off that corner with a bandsaw instead? Why not rough-cut that opening with a torch or hole saw? The answer is that "wasting" time and material on the CNC machine was far cheaper overall than turning a single-process operation into two or three steps on different machines.

So it would be interesting to hear what a machine shop says about this. Machining down a larger bar could in fact be less effort / lower cost than machining and pressing all of the collars on separately.


Post# 1107457 , Reply# 7   2/10/2021 at 11:48 (1,157 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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Another thought, is that if you're manufacturing new shafts, you could do something completely different than Maytag, rather than a strict dimensionally-accurate replica.

For example, maybe you could skip the groov-pin and sintered gear drama all together, by machining a shaft with the gear integral on the bottom? The top collar would then be pressed on after inserting the shaft up through the top case half.
It would be a "lifetime" repair, but let's be honest - so is any other rebuild on an already 45+ year old transmission.

It might also be worth looking into whether, with a machining change to the groove, an industrial O-ring could be substituted for the rubber agitator stop ring? The supply of those stop rings comes and goes. Some reproductions are intermittently available, but for quite a while it was only one guy with a box of dusty shelf stock remaining.


Post# 1107458 , Reply# 8   2/10/2021 at 11:50 (1,157 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)        

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How about spray welding and machining worn/pitted old shafts? If the splines arent all pitted would that be a cheaper alternative?

Post# 1107538 , Reply# 9   2/10/2021 at 21:24 (1,156 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Rebuilding Maytag Transmission Tops

combo52's profile picture

Great discussion and interesting ideas, the way to sell these would be to have a complete top assembly at least, I would just use an easy to machine steel shaft like MT did and coat the top with an epoxy finish and it will last a long time.

 

A good shop could dissemble and rebuild the bearings and reassemble the top and they could also do a complete transmission if they wanted.

 

With a reasonable rebuild you could get maybe another 20 years or so out of these machines, none of us only have one washer after all and few of us have many kids, But you are certainly not going to get 40 more years out of these washers without a lot of work, the transmission may also prove to be the least of your problems as it gets harder to get timers, motors, etc etc.

 

I was looking around the shop this morning and we have at least 6 of these pitman transmissions that are in excellent condition so I will certainly ever need any for the Mts we have have.

 

I sometimes save the transmissions from the late 80s MT stack machines when the electronic controls get too wonky or the damper pads come loose and we are scrapping the machine, these transmissions are usually pretty low milage as they usually only have one or two people in a household so the mechanical parts of the machines are often like new.

 

John 


Post# 1107616 , Reply# 10   2/11/2021 at 14:13 (1,156 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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If anyone needs a visual for this thread, here's what 45 years of use looks like on an agitator shaft.



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Post# 1107719 , Reply# 11   2/12/2021 at 11:06 (1,155 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

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Doesn't look like a ridiculous part to remanufacture. Making them in stainless might make sense in a limited run situation.

I'm assuming the collar in the center is a thrust bearing. This detail will greatly increase the cost of the shaft as it would have to be cut from a larger round bar reducing the diameters to finish. Adding the collar separately and possibly welding it in place before machining might reduce costs. If the shaft diameter is a nominal, precision ground stock could be used in this manner eliminating a grinding operation.

I manage a short run machine shop here in Minnesota and these might be reasonable in cost at fairly manageable quantities.


Post# 1107770 , Reply# 12   2/12/2021 at 18:18 (1,154 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Rebuilding Maytag Transmission Tops

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Hi Phil, The collar is a thrust bearing, the gear on the bottom of the shaft is the lower thrust bearing, it looks like MT pressed the upper thrust collar in place, it would be easy to tack weld an upper thrust collar in place.

 

I would imagine that getting new roll pins to hold the gear in place would be no problem.


Post# 1107772 , Reply# 13   2/12/2021 at 18:29 (1,154 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        
seriously guys?

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seriously? I mean come on.

We only live so long. You have nothing better to do with this money and effort? You're living for a washing machine?

Wouldn't it be more fun to just be on the hunt for more of this favored washer model and hope it has exchangeable parts?

The numbers are not in your favor.
If there was a market for such a part someone smarter and better heeled would have already undertaken that.


Post# 1107789 , Reply# 14   2/12/2021 at 21:58 (1,154 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

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Most of us are familiar with the Amish and their love of Maytag wringer washers. They have gone as far as making a living reproducing just about every available part from scratch, and that includes a shaft and bearing kit for the EJN wringers. Both shaft designs of the wringer and the '56-'89 autos are very similar to each other with some minor differences (BTW, roll pins are hollow in the center and lack sufficient rigidity compared to the groove pin design).

As I have mentioned in the past, the lower sleeve bearing in the '56-'89 automatic is identical to the EJN wringers. The upper bearing is similar in design (same inner diameter dimensions) except the overall length is longer for the automatics. The lower shaft collar and upper bearing collar on the automatics are beveled to account for an o-ring (probably not a bad idea to adopt for the wringers).

If a knowledgeable person could come in direct contact with the Amish and present a business plan of manufacturing a shaft/bearing kit for the automatics like they already provide for the wringers, this could end up being a win/win situation for all parties. The Amish already have the knowledge of machining these shafts and installing the collar, they just need to accommodate for subtle changes. Only minor adaptions for the upper bearing would need to be ironed out since the lower bearing is the same as the wringers.

The Amish are known for their quality of work and should be able to make adaptions for a much smaller fee than a machine shop starting from scratch. I would also trust the Amish to provide consistent high quality materials and workmanship over a machine shop that may fork the whole process to a 3rd world country and cheapen it overtime, if not immediately, to increase profits. I'd also prefer my money to stay within the US to support and reward workers in this country, but that's just my personal preference.


Post# 1107803 , Reply# 15   2/13/2021 at 04:46 (1,154 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        
@bradfordwhite

It sounds like you are implying we are a bunch of idiots. Secondly, basically ALL of these particular shafts are pitted. Some are usable, some not

Regarding the numbers: Iím fully aware that there maybe only 20 people who buy one shaft. At $75 each I know I can recover at least $1500. If I spend $1,000 to make 50 units Iím in good shape.

The ďsmartĒ ďwell heeled ď people would never waste their time on such a small market. Iím just a small potato so im ok with making $500 for minimal effort, and save some of these very cool machines.


Post# 1107840 , Reply# 16   2/13/2021 at 11:38 (1,154 days old) by tennblondie78 (Bowling Green, KY)        

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I would be very interested in this. I need an new top assembly for my original transmission. Please add me to the list!

Post# 1107843 , Reply# 17   2/13/2021 at 12:38 (1,154 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)        

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Eugene, this is why Robert gave us the "hide member" option.  As a result, my BP hasn't spiked from any of the responses in this very interesting discussion that are visible to me.  Highly recommended.


Post# 1107844 , Reply# 18   2/13/2021 at 12:39 (1,154 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)        

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I would think stainless is the only way to go. Would avoid the cost of having to epoxy it at all to prevent rust. That collar would prob be best machined with the shaft. Once a CNC had the dimensions it could turn these out pretty reasonably.

Post# 1107848 , Reply# 19   2/13/2021 at 13:53 (1,154 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        
An Idea

First, I need a bit more information.

1. It looks like the 2 bronze bushings on the top cover of the trans are not sold separately. Does anyone know the specific dimensions? alternate source? Maybe a hidden part number?

2. I was wondering: Why cant I just install a very thin stainless steel or chromed sleeve? Something where the ID (inside diameter) is nearly exact, and only 1/32 wall so it will only increase the overall diameter by 1/16th. Really I believe a 1/16th thickness would work fine as the seal is pretty flexible. Like the same principle of the main spin bearing that mounts to the outer tub. It could be installed with a small amount of epoxy to really seal it to the shaft.

Im meeting with a machine shop Monday so Ill keep you all updated.


Post# 1107849 , Reply# 20   2/13/2021 at 14:07 (1,154 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        
@ qsd-dan

I mostly agree with you but a dose of reality may help you see my way.

You are 100% correct in your process to rebuild these pitman trans to give another 40 years of service. However, most of the people who own these vintage machines are enthusiasts like use who will use them infrequently, and really old ladies. I think with a clean shaft and perhaps the top bushing as I can totally see that wearing out quickly once things get rough. Fresh oil is a must. Ive never seen the plastic gear break, ever. I have a couple of new ones somewhere, but I think a may never use them.

Basically, most of these machines are regulated to maybe a load or 3 a week at best. Even with a Half-assed rebuild I could reasonably expect these trannys to at very least outlast the rest of the machine, or the user lol. I think 20 years could be expected with a clean agitator shaft, bushing, and oil.


Post# 1107850 , Reply# 21   2/13/2021 at 14:32 (1,154 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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There was someone else researching bronze bushings and shaft sleeves a month or two back - I can't remember the context - but I think they had found industrial suppliers that had whole catalogs full of both parts. I wouldn't be surprised if the bronze bushing is both the easiest (and cheapest!) part of this whole puzzle, as well as actually being the most important part of your (or Dan's) project's success.

Taking a step back, as long as the agitator splines are OK enough, one might not even need a new custom shaft at all? You could just machine down the lower agitator shaft OD a touch and use bronze bushings with a smaller ID (so no sleeve required)... and then the upper shaft (where the lip seal rides) could be machined and sleeved so it is smooth for the seal.

That wouldn't really be practical in quantity though unless you had quite a pile of worn out donor transmissions...


Post# 1107888 , Reply# 22   2/13/2021 at 20:25 (1,153 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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Put me on the list for a couple - thanks for doing the legwork here, Eugene!


Post# 1108886 , Reply# 23   2/20/2021 at 14:49 (1,147 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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>> Even with a Half-assed rebuild I could reasonably expect these trannys to at very
>> least outlast the rest of the machine, or the user lol. I think 20 years could be
>> expected with a clean agitator shaft, bushing, and oil.

I'd go so far as to say that in another 20 years, so many other parts will be NLA that rebuilding one will be impractical regardless of the condition of the agitator shaft.

And at that point, it doesn't really matter if you're an enthusiast or not - or how badly you want to do the project - because aftermarket companies will have ended parts production long ago due to low demand from the general population. Parts simply won't be available.


Post# 1108891 , Reply# 24   2/20/2021 at 15:55 (1,147 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

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"I'd go so far as to say that in another 20 years, so many other parts will be NLA that rebuilding one will be impractical regardless of the condition of the agitator shaft."

Which is precisely why my restorations are so in-depth. Do it right and it'll last another 40 years. I also stockpiled parts for the future. For over a decade, I have countless posts on this site urging members to stock parts and perform a detailed rebuild before it's too late. Once those parts are gone, it's game over. We're now officially here.


Post# 1108920 , Reply# 25   2/20/2021 at 18:41 (1,146 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        
Anything can be rebuilt or re- created.

I will admit washers are the most difficult. I frequently fabricate some stove parts and they are 80+ years old. Itís nice to find a nos part on eBay and just replace it, but sometimes you have to rebuild.

Back on topic, I still will visit a machine shop soon to see about making me shafts. What I think is ideal would be a custom fit stainless steel sleeve to fit over the shaft that touches the seal. The plus side is that this sleeve would fit all agitator shafts as they are all the same diameter.

This wonít be a solution for every application but I think it could take care of 90%


Post# 1108926 , Reply# 26   2/20/2021 at 19:38 (1,146 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        

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Shhh-h-h don't tell the guys who have their fingers in their ears. lol

Oh-h, they're not going to see this anyway.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO bradfordwhite's LINK


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Post# 1108936 , Reply# 27   2/20/2021 at 21:15 (1,146 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        
Don't tell the guys who have their fingers in their ears

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When a 3-d printer spits out a functioning timer, pressure switch, and brake package, I'll be impressed.

For parts that can be replicated, quality and durability standards will need to be factored in. If quality standards meet OEM (longshot), price will be the next hurdle. That doesn't include the exorbitant upfront charge to design the product.

I'll just take the easy way out, reach into my parts stash, and grab whatever I need.


Post# 1108945 , Reply# 28   2/21/2021 at 00:37 (1,146 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        

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In case you don't realize it, an analog timer is not a single part. It is in fact a combination of parts of varying materials. It is an appliance in and of itself. As a result, a 3D printer will have to make each part individually and they would need to be assembled.

I'm not a 3D parts expert. I just thought I'd bring it to your attention so you wouldn't have to pull out the kiln, sand forms and who knows what other "old worldy" type stuff that can probably be found in an abandoned Pennsylvania manufacturing town.

This place says they can do any size order and they have 60 different types of metal and plastic. Maybe they have the proper forged metal for a gear.
Or maybe it can be heat treated after the fact.


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Post# 1108948 , Reply# 29   2/21/2021 at 00:59 (1,146 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        
As for those Amish desperate to get their hands on

bradfordwhite's profile picture
a Maytag gear.

They are evolving. Many now have solar electric, cel phones, computers, Internet businesses, and they are also migrating westward.

Because of their thrifty ways, I would not be surprised if many are now considering......a front loader. (collective gasp)

Those 4,975 extra gears that would most likely be left over from the original 5,000 planned, it might be a minor mistake to think the Amish were going to rush in and buy most at no doubt inflated prices.

In fact, they'd probably prefer you "donate" them.

Of course then there is the question of how many Amish members actually know how to fix a Maytag washer. Many have limited 'real world' education, I doubt they've tinkered with old appliances back at the cabin before the sunset in their formative years.

I hope you don't end up with box after box of gears stuck in the back corner of your garage for your family to inherit some day, but...sometimes that's the end result of persistence.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO bradfordwhite's LINK


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Post# 1108962 , Reply# 30   2/21/2021 at 03:10 (1,146 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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I wrote about 3D printing years ago. Want a 1955 Chevrolet Bel Air? Give me a few hours. An agitator for a 1959 Norge? Coming right up. 3D printing will profoundly change our lives. From consumer goods, to food, to human body parts. It's whats next.


Post# 1109008 , Reply# 31   2/21/2021 at 13:11 (1,146 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)        
Amish

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I never underestimate those people. They're very hard working, determined, and when they set out to do something do just that. Even though they have restrictions on what modern toys to make life easier they can use as dictated by their faith, they did use old cast iron 2 cylinder Wisconsin engines from the 50's-70's on their farm machinery and I've been to auctions where they paid dearly to get them and would buy as many as they could get their hands on. They're also money hungry and love to collect it but never spend it so not afraid of work. If anyone could reproduce these cost effectively it would be the Amish on either PA, IN or OH.

Post# 1109063 , Reply# 32   2/21/2021 at 21:55 (1,145 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        
In case you don't realize it, an analog timer is not a s

qsd-dan's profile picture
I've been inside many old timers but most 3D printing is for a mold which is then used as a cast for the material being reproduced. It doesn't go directly into service hot off of the 3D printing press.

Ever been inside the workings of a Kingston timer motor? There's a whole lotta plastic gears inside those and I'd hate to see the bill to reproduce each one. If catastrophic failure occurs and the gears are too badly chewed up, good luck getting proper dimensions for the printer.

The process from start to finish is much more complicated and expensive than pushing a button and spiting out a part. One must have deep pockets up front to cover the initial expense. There also must be enough demand to cover those expenses. God forbid cheap materials are used in the final product and your reputation is forever destroyed.


Post# 1109185 , Reply# 33   2/22/2021 at 14:43 (1,145 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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Timers are an interesting one. While perhaps one of the most complicated parts of a machine design, they are also one which is uniquely suitable to be fully replaced with alternate technology. You don't necessarily "have" to repair them like-for-like.

If you look at problems like the NLA door seals for the front-load Keymatics, that's a dead-end until you can reproduce the part, and you're not likely to stray too far from the original design. But an electromechanical timer is ripe for replacement by electronics - and depending on what has failed and how rare the parts are (or as mentioned above, how much engineering work it would take to reproduce them), it might end up being quite a bit cheaper to fully replace the timer with something 100% different than what was there 40 years ago.


Post# 1109233 , Reply# 34   2/22/2021 at 19:46 (1,144 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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I imagine much of the aim in restoration or repair of a vintage machine, at least for collectors, is to maintain the originality of the mechanisms.


Post# 1109266 , Reply# 35   2/22/2021 at 22:43 (1,144 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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Yes of course. My comment is mostly in the context of that 20-40 year outlook, where keeping full authenticity might no longer be possible. Basically making the distinction that, to keep a machine operable, the timer is a part that can be fully substituted with something entirely different. Whereas, other parts... your only choice is to repair or recreate them to match the originals.


Post# 1121466 , Reply# 36   6/26/2021 at 13:44 (1,021 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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One of Eugene's rebuilt transmissions popped up in my eBay feed.
Glad to see that you're up and running refurbishing and selling these.


Post# 1161788 , Reply# 37   10/15/2022 at 23:54 (544 days old) by Chef (California)        

Are all the Pitman transmissions A412, A510, A512, A612, A613, A712 compatible and can interchange parts?

Post# 1161790 , Reply# 38   10/16/2022 at 01:06 (544 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)        
Reply #37

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They are all the same I believe. Wouldnít be cost effective to use a completely different style of transmission for every machine in your lineup unless you are a large corporation like General Motors back in the 60ís where you have different divisions (really a large company that owns different smaller companies) and can have different brands of appliances using different layouts and designs to complete with other outside companies and other divisions owned by the same company as well.

Post# 1161791 , Reply# 39   10/16/2022 at 02:25 (544 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

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All 1966-1989 pitman transmissions as a complete unit are compatible with each other as long you get the correct one for the tub size.

Here's the only exception: 12 series (1984-1989) upper transmission housings are not compatible with previous models. A 12 series pitman housing is only compatible with the 12 series pitman transmission. The internal gears and upper shaft are compatible with previous models.

An A613 should have an orbital transmission.


Post# 1161854 , Reply# 40   10/17/2022 at 14:30 (543 days old) by Chef (California)        

Are the 12 series (1984-1989) transmissions better than previous series?

Post# 1166996 , Reply# 41   12/18/2022 at 20:15 (480 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        
Iím having 50 made

I came to an agreement with a local fabricator. They are going to be the same material as the original. Iíll keep you all updated

Post# 1167065 , Reply# 42   12/20/2022 at 00:05 (479 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        

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What have you been quoted?

What's their delivery time?


Post# 1167084 , Reply# 43   12/20/2022 at 09:23 (479 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        

Iím probably going to have to sell them at a bit over $100 per shaft. Eta 7-9 weeks.

Post# 1198168 , Reply# 44   1/28/2024 at 17:01 by hosertp (Harbor City, CA)        
Iím probably going to have to sell them at a bit over $100

hosertp's profile picture
I am interested in a complete upper housing with a functioning agitator shaft for an A512 (my favored/easiest path of restoration)

OR

I will remove the pin and un-seize the shaft if I know that you still have your re-manufactured upper agitator shaft available.

Some folks on this thread, as I have read the entire conversation, have given me sage advice on my "Maytag A512 spins but won't agitate" thread. Very much appreciated! I just need to know what's available in order to determine my path to restore my Pitman transmission. If I have a replacement shaft, I am going to need to hear from someone who knows the right way to remove the pin with the least amount of collateral damage?


Please let me know what parts are available. Thank you all in advance,
Paul


Post# 1198172 , Reply# 45   1/28/2024 at 18:10 by qsd-dan (West)        

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The shaft is one obstacle. The sleeve bearings are generally damaged as they're much softer than the shaft. Sometimes you can get away with reusing them but most of the time there's enough wear that it makes a racket during agitation when reassembled, even with a new shaft. A good machine shop should be able make and properly fit new sleeve bearings and maybe fix the shaft by welding and re-machining the wear/corrosion areas.

The groove pin is another obstacle. They're difficult to remove (post 1974's are much easier), re-install and are not reusable. The service manual calls for banging them out with a hammer and punch but I had better luck pressing them out which prevents damaging the shaft, sleeve bearings, and the possibility of staking the groove pin if it mushrooms during the removal/installation process. Finding a new groove pin will be a task, they were obsoleted in May of 2015 and parts dried up very quickly after that.

I have toyed around with making new shafts, sleeve bearings, groove pins, clutch washers, and the Delrin pinion gears before 2020 but I think costs would now far exceed what most would be willing to pay with the large increase of pricing the last 4 years. Damaged/seized upper shaft and upper sleeve bearing is the main reason these washers are trashed.


Post# 1198254 , Reply# 46   1/29/2024 at 18:41 by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

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I would really like to one of these shafts in person or see a drawing of one from someone that can measure and document it. It really doesn't look all that hard to duplicate one. I'm sitting here in a short run / prototype CNC shop currently. We specialize in making parts like these in small quantities for a reasonable cost. Many machine shops that run higher quantities just can't bid onesie twosie quantities reasonably because they don't understand making a part without fixturing it for production.

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Post# 1198256 , Reply# 47   1/29/2024 at 20:02 by swestoyz (Cedar Falls, IA)        

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Phil, if you like I can bring you an NOS shaft next time I'm up in the Twin Cities.

Ben


Post# 1198292 , Reply# 48   1/30/2024 at 14:51 by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

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Ben,

I would like to see one I suppose. I talked to John last night and it sounds as if Eugene had some made already so perhaps this is a non-issue now. Sounds as if they were made of steel though, I would have used stainless to avoid the need for plating/coating.

Happy New Year!

Phil


Post# 1198297 , Reply# 49   1/30/2024 at 15:35 by qsd-dan (West)        

qsd-dan's profile picture
Nothing wrong with a bit of competition, especially in the quality department.

I can send you an NOS pitman shaft, NOS orbital shaft, NOS EJN wringer shaft, NOS EJN upper/lower sleeve bearings (the lower sleeve bearing is shared with auto's from 1956-1989), NOS groove pin, NOS brass and steel clutch washers. I can even send you an NOS Delrin pinion gear (used from 1949-1989) if you fool around with that material.

Hell, I have entire NOS pitman gear sets, too, but probably not worth the effort. They rarely wear out unless run dry. Also have NOS orbital gears (Delrin) and yoke.


Post# 1198305 , Reply# 50   1/30/2024 at 16:34 by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Reply number 49

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Hi Dan, unfortunately, thereís very little demand for any of these parts. Those of us who really need them already have them, and they still can be found.

Minor note, the AMPs did not use a Delrin pinion gear. I donít even think Delrin had been invented yet not sure about that, however the later Delrin ring might by fit those early washers. But the original machines used a fiber gear.

Maytag used a nonmetal gear because they just used straight cut gears and it would be too noisy for the main pinion gear Which travels at the fastest speed. Whirlpool got around this problem by using a helical cut gears.

John


Post# 1198309 , Reply# 51   1/30/2024 at 16:50 by qsd-dan (West)        

qsd-dan's profile picture
Yeah, AMPS used the fiber pinion as well as the helicals into the early 60's but the Delrin gear is backwards compatible.

Post# 1198323 , Reply# 52   1/30/2024 at 19:38 by swestoyz (Cedar Falls, IA)        

swestoyz's profile picture
Oh, if Eugene has already gone down this path (had not heard that he had successfully gotten this sourced out?), there's no need then for Phil to go through the same exercise.

Dan, surprised you suggested the E/J/N shaft. Have you checked out any of the parts available from Cottage Craft Works? Looks like they offer one for about 55 bucks. Would be hard pressed to find someone to make one in a small batch, for less.

cottagecraftworks.com/maytag-wri...

I spent a few minutes last night going through the archives. I could have sworn I found an off the shelf groove pin replacement and commented about it on a similar thread a few years ago, but alas I couldn't find it. I could go and re-measure an NOS pin to see what the specs are. If it's somewhat standard I don't see why we couldn't use a generic replacement.

I also recall Dan that you mentioned the lower bushing from the automatic transmission was the same used on the E, from the A4927 set. What are the specs on the top bushing? Again, I wouldn't be surprised if it's not too far off from a common or generic sized bushing/t bushing. If I'm wrong, please correct my assumptions.

Ben

EDIT - per the parts manuals, the 210183 groov-pin is 1/4" x 1-1/8"


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This post was last edited 01/30/2024 at 21:16
Post# 1198326 , Reply# 53   1/30/2024 at 20:00 by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Reproduced, Maytag wringer washer, agitator shaft

combo52's profile picture
Hi Ben, I wonder if that shaft is made of stainless steel it looks nice, Iím assuming the wringer washer, agitator shaft is shorter than the automatic. If it was long enough, you could drill an extra hole through it.

John


Post# 1198338 , Reply# 54   1/31/2024 at 11:09 by jons1077 (Vancouver, Washington, USA)        
Iíd be interested

jons1077's profile picture
I only have one Maytag, a 1970 Model 806. Never know when I might need the parts.


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