Thread Number: 88593
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Are BSH machines inefficient or the others just very efficient?
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|Post# 1131358   10/18/2021 at 10:35 (222 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))  || |
So, the service tech ordered some parts for my grandmas machine.
Meanwhile I was looking around and due to some luck in pricing, if the repair fails, I put in a reservation for a 1600rpm Series 8 Bosch at work.
So checking some specs, I realized something strange.
Any BSH machine - at least in the Series 8 level - uses a heck of a lot of energy.
For a 9kg load, they use 2.12kWh of energy.
Sure they reach north of 60C, but still.
AEG uses only 1.55kWh, Miele only 1.45kWh for the same load size.
And the Miele even is an entire hour quicker.
Especially the Miele seems odd.
Given it has an all metal construction, it should need more energy than the others.
Knowing Mieles water levels though, I can see that happening.
AEG and Miele only reach 55C.
But even adjusting for that, they still are a good 20% more efficient.
How can that be?
Do they use THAT much more water during the main wash?
Or why do they maintain temps that long?
Out of all these machines, that is the one still offering an option to extend the wash time.
And the one with the largest drum volume of them all.
I attached the corresponding screenshots from the manuals.
|Post# 1131359 , Reply# 1   10/18/2021 at 11:02 (222 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)  || |
The Bosch is also the same boy one that actually hits 60c though. Maybe it maintains 60°C? I know Miele doesn’t heat with as much water as you would expect.
|Post# 1131389 , Reply# 2   10/18/2021 at 19:43 (221 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)  || |
This is one thing I don't like about the BSH and AEG machines, the excessively long wash times. Over 2.5 hours is bordering on the ridiculous.
I like the Miele because the wash times are not overly long. I normally use the 'short' function most of the time and still achieve excellent results.
With regards to water consumption, the Miele rinses twice and the AEG and Bosch would rinse at least 3 times. Approx. 20 litres per fill.
Last week I did a large load of towels in the Miele on Cottons 60 with short, water plus and extra rinse and the machine used 110 litres of water and 1 kWh of electricity and took 2 hours and 4 minutes. Mine is a hot and cold connection.
|Post# 1131412 , Reply# 3   10/19/2021 at 02:33 (221 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
Both my old Siemens and the new one have the tendency to fill the machine above the usual water level with a full load. The water level comes way higher than the bottom of the glass. More water in the main wash means more energy use ofcourse. That said I am very pleased with my new Siemens, it cleans excellent and rinses quite well too. Besides that I can add up to 3 extra rinses on top of the 3 it already does. Sometimes I add just 1 rinse, usually none. But it's great to have the option when you have a sensitive skin.
In the latest consumer test Bosch and Siemens came out as best rinsers (none of the tested washing machines scored great on that point).
Here's a video of my old Siemens on main wash with a load of towels. That costed a lot of energy I'm sure.
|Post# 1131424 , Reply# 4   10/19/2021 at 10:16 (221 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))  || |
With my Miele, I always select an extra rinse.
Only time it does 3 rinses on Cottons is with a full load on 40C and less.
With that extra rinse it performs pretty well.
But I can see it struggling without it.
It's just so odd.
Especially since that screenshot is from a machine with a recirculation system.
So it shouldn't have to use such a high water level.
I mean, the energy usage still isn't ridiculous IMO.
It's high, but fine.
I just don't see why it uses so much.
It has a sperate Allergy cycle for the times you need more temp holding. 3:30h is enough to wash and not have to temp hold that much. It has recirculation system AND a large drum.
If it runs such a high water level for the wash, why not for the rinse? 10l per kg laundry on Cottons seems like a reasonable water usage, just why focused on the wash?
The cheap Beko back home does the same thing (high level high dilution wash, low level long-ish rinses) and performs surprisingly well.
The Bosch can reach A-class cleaning at a lower temp in basically the same time apparently as the Eco 40-60 cycle is barely longer.
It is also apparent the Miele can handle water way more efficiently than either.
It can rinse 3 times with "just" 72l where the other use 8 or 13l more.
I don't have selected any water level increasing options with mine.
Rinsing with a very low water level more often works well with the Miele.
Maybe it's also something to do with the higher detergent concentration?
I was just shocked it took me so long to realise that.
|Post# 1131454 , Reply# 5   10/19/2021 at 18:22 (221 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)  || |
My mum's Bosch Series 4, I think it is, washes quite well, with moderate water levels. I've tried running it on Cottons @ 60°C with Time Saver activated, and it seems by touch, to get close to the stated temperature.
I have reservations about AEG and their previous shenanigans. I remember an older report by WHICH?, in conjunction with a university (Leicester?) and the then AEG 60°C programme reach a humongous twenty-odd degrees. Hardly inspiring stuff.
Frankly, I'd rather have a machine which washed temperature-accurate, and consistently. Even if it costs a few pence more per load. I can't be doing with all this lily-livered eco crap.
|Post# 1131475 , Reply# 6   10/20/2021 at 02:20 (220 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)  || |
It`s hard to believe that Miele (and AEG) still cheat on the cotton 60° cycle with a target temperature of only 55°.
Why are they doing this? They could use any amount of energy they wanted to on this cycle since there is a dedicated ECO 40-60 cycle available for the sake of the EU label.
My old Miele doesn`t have an ECO cycle and cotton 60° is only 55° except for permanent press which I hardly use, so most of my 60° loads go on 75° which is kind of annoying and wasteful.
Bosch`s temperature pattern (screenshot #3) seems way more user friendly in terms of what you expect when you set the dial and what you actually get.
A little less efficiency sometimes can be highly appreciated, at least it seems that Bosch users don`t have to go for the most expensive TOL models that include special hygiene or allergy cycles if they want a washer to actually reach the set temperature
|Post# 1131476 , Reply# 7   10/20/2021 at 02:47 (220 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))  || |
I guess that AEG/Miele play it safe there.
That temperature is defined as the maximum temperature reached in the center of the laundry for 5 consecutive minutes.
So my guess is they heat to 60C and don't temp hold.
Thus they say 55C to not be "caught in a lie".
I do also think that both would reach true 60C in a smaller load.
But even adjusted from that they are more efficient.
IIRC the new label starts at a temperature of 20C.
So the Bosch has to heat 42C while either only has to heat 35C.
That means 1.2x as much.
Even adjusting for that, both land below 1.8kWh, still about 20% more efficient as I said.
|Post# 1131478 , Reply# 8   10/20/2021 at 03:52 (220 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)  || |
Can`t speak for the brand new Mieles and AEGs which seem to have way more complex programming but my 17 years old Miele only reaches 55° even when I run it empty without any clothes.
I know for sure because I`ve measured the water with a digital thermometer.
Someone also posted a link to a service manual of my Miele which unfortunately didn`t work anymore the last time I needed it but I`m sure it mentioned 55° as target temperature.
|Post# 1131480 , Reply# 9   10/20/2021 at 04:28 (220 days old) by richnz (New Zealand)  || |
the higher the energy consumption.
I don't think rinsing would add much in terms of energy.
Miele machines seem to do a more dry wash.
The singlewash option is very stingy.
|Post# 1131481 , Reply# 10   10/20/2021 at 04:31 (220 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))  || |
Yeah, the Novotronic machines went as low as 50C on the later versions.
For the Miele at least I know that even without PW, the machines have that heat by usage system enabled by default.
That would make me think it could reach 60C.
If not, enabling Intensive or AllergoWash will for sure.
|Post# 1131955 , Reply# 11   10/26/2021 at 06:41 (214 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)  || |
On a grocery shopping trip today I had a chance to flip through the latest edition of Warentest.
It seems the cheaper Bosch and Siemens didn`t get close to 60° in the regular cycle whereas the higher end model they tested was a bit over 60°.
The Miele model they tested was something like 59° IIRC, so to my surprise it did much better than the one of the screenshot above.
Of course I was also curious about the Universal Detergents they tested in the same issue.
I think to recall Aldi compact powder and Persil Megaperls were best rated, of course most powders did better than liquids and pods because of the bleach, but not all of them were better.
The best liquids were again Aldi followed by Persil, both satisfying but worse than most powders, Ariel liquid was only rated fair.
Ariel Pods seems to have caught up a little now rated satisfying and Persil Discs come in only "fair"
Don`t remember which were good at stain removing and which were good at overall soil removing and prevention of redepositing.
|Post# 1131994 , Reply# 12   10/26/2021 at 16:07 (214 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)  || |
Gosh! I just realized that I totally forgot to see what they say about Bosch`s energy efficiency or "Umwelteigenschaften" or whatever they call it.
Sorry Henrik, I was so obsessed about the actual temperature of the 60° cycles and the detergent ratings not recognizing what this thread is actually about.