Thread Number: 89993  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
1 Year Later with new KitchenAid kitchen
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Post# 1145881   4/5/2022 at 16:38 (749 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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It's been a while since I've really posted here, other than a comment on a thread here and there, but since today (or really around this time in April) marks exactly one year since we gutted and remodeled our kitchen with a whole suite of KitchenAids, I figured it's time to post some official photos of everything over the last year, plus give some update and review about them after having plenty of use and experience to speak on.

I feel like I should break things up with separate posts on the thread so that I can get pictures posted of each appliance and so there isn't just one single novel of a post to have to read through.

Post# 1145883 , Reply# 1   4/5/2022 at 17:47 (749 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I debated saving this for last, but because this is my favorite of any appliance and definitely the more in-depth in operation, I'll make it first: the dishwasher.

This is a KDTM604 model, with Whirlpool's new (or rather revised and updated) MicroClean pump and filter system, as well as a completely redesigned tub and frame that has a deeper sump, which allows the wash arm to sit lower and closer to the surrounding tub bottom, which also enables the lower rack to sit lower as well, and is how they've managed to squeeze an entire cups/glasses sized third rack up on top without sacrificing space for the traditional lower/upper racks.

I must say, I've always adored the PowerClean (and don't worry, it's still permanently installed and used regularly) and I thought the WP 920 model was absolutely the best dishwasher design I've ever witnessed, much less owned, but this machine is an absolute dream. I have yet to have a single item with any degree of soil come out anything but spotless. It's also incredibly quiet, but that's no surprise these days. I will say that there is a bit more of a motor hum than I was used to with the GlobalWash's magnet induction pump motor, but that's to be expected, considering this is an AC motor three times the size of what was used in the GW designs, and it's by no means noticeable at all unless you're leaning right down to it, and forget hearing it at all if you have so much as a quiet TV on in the other room.

It's also incredibly well built. Despite that the new frame uses a polymer base frame, it's very sturdy. The polymer frame may actually be helping to dampen any sound coming from the motor, as well as the huge rubber snubbers the motor itself mounts on. I was skeptical at first, but even the new plastic leveling feet lock very snugly into place. I have our machine side mounted with thick wooden shims inside the cabinet sides, so it doesn't move or flex in the slightest, even when the racks are fully loaded and extended.

The door feels exceptionally smooth and sturdy as well, and WP's "StayPut" door weighting system has been made even better with a completely redesigned hinge system that is actually really neat to watch work if you can look at a machine sitting out in the open. In theory, there shouldn't really be any reason for the new hinges to wear or loosen over time because the spring is quite a bit more substantial than was ever used on previous designs, which had long slender springs with fairly narrow wire. Plus there are no snubber pads or cables or plastic spring brackets to fail or break away.

The controls are beautifully laid out and all capacitive touch, and each cycle button is its own pad; no more cycle toggle key (thank god). There is also now an options menu hidden in the Hi Temp key that can change rinse aid dose, sound on/off, Sabbath mode, and LED lighting (on the 704-804 models). The tones are still simple chip tune, but the cycle start and end tones have more of a "boo beep" two or three tone sound. Nothing sing-songy but still a little more charming while being incredibly simple.

This machine also seems to have a redesigned diverter system that is much snappier than the slow rotating diverter disc of the GW. It's still disc based, but the transitions to each zone take barely a second. I'm sure someone here could elaborate more on that or find technical manuals that I haven't found yet. There are now four completely separate wash levels, the upper ceiling spray now being a dedicated wash arm with I believe 6 true spray jets. And then of course there are the dual rotating spray tubes that have their own supply. The third "FreeFlex" rack is not only great for mugs, stemless wineglasses, and taller glasses in the center, but also for small bowls, clear glass sealing containers, and long utensils. The side silverware basket is nice for measuring spoons and little lids and items, though I still use my dishwasher cage for measuring scoops and such.

The middle rack is slightly different for a Whirlpool, because it's not *quite* as symmetrical as it's been in previous designs. Plates and bowls now sit better to the left or right of center, with an adjustable row of tines for larger items on the right. I actually like this a bit better now after getting used to it because glasses can all be grouped to one side or the other, which was more difficult in the PowerClean and Voyager upper rack because the direct center was more intended for plates and saucers.

The lower rack is largely the same, maintaining an adjustable back row of tines, as well as a sliding adjustable front set, though I actually have mine locked into "normal plate" configuration with a couple of tiny zip ties. I did this for the 920 as well because occasionally a tilt in the wrong direction with a plate would cause the tines to slide, and all your plates would proceed to jumble around. I don't really care about the sliding tines myself because we don't have enough large uniformly sized bowls to take up that kind of space.

As far as actual operation and behavior of the machine, I've made a few observations.

First, I've only ever noticed a maximum of one full prewash, and I've never heard this machine do any sort of APF (filter purge) during a prewash. That's something I'm a bit surprised at, given how the spinning filter chamber and drain pump are arranged. I wonder if that may be a revision that will come to this platform in the coming years because that could shave off a bit of water use while still maintaining the same performance. I have heard it several times doing what I call an eco-rinse; it's not a purge like would be typical in a PC or Voyager model, but it's also not a full rinse. It fills with just enough water to surge through the wash arm for a second or two before gasping on air for another second, and pauses, doing this several times and then switching to the next wash zone and repeating. This seems to effectively force water through every wash zone and throw water in every direction enough to cover the entire load and tub at least once. It then drains and proceeds to the final rinse. This happens about 50% of the time though, even on Normal with no options, otherwise there are two full rinses.

Second, after confirming with the Sense energy monitor we have on our house, this machine actually engages the heating element when the upper arm is running as well, only shutting off when the upper sprayer or spray tubes are running. I have mixed feelings about this because of the possibility of having the lower rack covered with large bowls and bakeware, which would mean very little of the upper arm's water would fall on the actual element, as well as baking on any soil that could still be present on the inside surfaces of said bowls, but with my use I haven't noticed anything like that. I've only taken one video of the interior, but it seems the water level sits at least somewhat around the element during wash action. Regardless, I'm sure with design it's known and intentional, and after a year of use there's been no issue.

Another thing is that the built in fan runs regardless of heated dry settings, which I love. It seems to run for 8 hours after a cycle is finished, unless the door is opened. This works beautifully for me because I despise using a heat dry option on a dishwasher, period. So far, it dries wonderfully even when left over night, and if I'm nearby when the cycle finishes, I just prop it open to air dry like always, which flash dries the hot dishes if they're still warm enough. The exhaust vent is right at the bottom of the door, so you can hear a slight fan noise and feel the warm humid air blowing out, but there has been no sign of condensation or water dripping at all so far.

My only beef so far with this machine has more to do with the marketing and included documentation for it. The user manual is pathetic. No more detailed cycle charts or descriptions of the operation of the machine itself. It's very basic. There isn't even a mention at all of the fan or how/when/how long it operates. I had to learn the 8 hour duration for myself by checking on it in and out of the kitchen. It's a shame that for a brand that not only has the most unique pump/filter system in a dishwasher, but also has the most innovative third rack in the US market (I know, Asko has a middle rack that functions similarly), Whirlpool has massively dropped the ball showcasing any of it. This is their opportunity to put out Dyson and Apple level engineering commercials, brochures, demo videos, and yet they're allowing companies like Samsung to continue peddling gimmicks and saturating our ads and store displays.

So anyway, I don't want to ramble too much more, so I'll post some of the pictures I have, with a good gallery of full loads with before and afters.

Post# 1145884 , Reply# 2   4/5/2022 at 17:50 (749 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Post# 1145885 , Reply# 3   4/5/2022 at 17:52 (749 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Post# 1145886 , Reply# 4   4/5/2022 at 17:55 (749 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Post# 1145887 , Reply# 5   4/5/2022 at 17:56 (749 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Post# 1145888 , Reply# 6   4/5/2022 at 18:02 (749 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Post# 1145889 , Reply# 7   4/5/2022 at 18:04 (749 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Post# 1145890 , Reply# 8   4/5/2022 at 18:05 (749 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Post# 1145896 , Reply# 9   4/5/2022 at 19:55 (749 days old) by Tomdawg (Des moines)        
Love your review

You did a great job really explaining the inís and outs of the dishwasher. A questions for you.

What was your cycle of choice? It looks like you used normal and everything came out clean?

I had a kitchen aid global wash system and I had to select every option and heavy to get dishes clean. I now have a Bosch 800 series and love that I can just use auto and no options and the dishes get clean.

Post# 1145900 , Reply# 10   4/5/2022 at 21:35 (749 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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That picture of your kitchen - I love it.

The dishwasher looks huge inside. I hate my Maytag tiered upper rack..

I had no clue you were remodeling and got all new Kitchenaids...

So this dishwasher has a stronger motor than your previous WP?

I love Kitchenaid small appliances but I've never had one of their major appliances (at least yet)

Post# 1145901 , Reply# 11   4/5/2022 at 22:24 (749 days old) by Marky_mark (From Liverpool. Now living in Palm Springs and Dublin)        

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Excellent review and photos!  This has helped me enormously as I have been seriously considering buying one of these (the 704) but I had concerns regarding its performance.  My other dishwashers are a KDS-18, GSD2800, JennAir electronic reverse rack and a WP PowerClean.  Plus I am used to using Miele dishwashers too.  So obviously this machine will be facing some serious competition in my house!  So thanks again, Andrew.  Great job with the kitchen remodel 😍

This post was last edited 04/05/2022 at 23:36
Post# 1145904 , Reply# 12   4/5/2022 at 23:00 (749 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

Glad to see you posting again! Even more glad you wrote this review!
Is the silverware basket able to be separated? It seems rather large!

Post# 1145907 , Reply# 13   4/5/2022 at 23:35 (749 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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I really enjoyed reading your review and seeing all the pictures. You have a beautiful kitchen!

I'm looking forward to the reviews of your other appliances.

Post# 1145908 , Reply# 14   4/5/2022 at 23:44 (749 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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Thanks, you guys :) Iíll get more photos of the rest of the appliances uploaded soon. Itís a bit of a workaround to get photos posted because the site uploader doesnít know what to do with the new HEIF format photos on newer iOS devices, so I have to convert them with the computer to jpeg, otherwise theyíll be horribly pixelated and compressed.

@Tomdawg - Typically I always use Normal or ProWash(Auto), and occasionally if I have a particularly heavily dried on food load, Iíll add Hi Temp as what I consider my ďheavyĒ cycle. Iíve used the Tough/Heavy cycle on this machine once or twice but I honestly canít remember how it behaved other than assuming forced prewash and thermal hold main wash, but for what this machine does on its normal cycles and options, I feel anything more is overkill in my case. Iíve done the same for nearly every dishwasher Iíve used or owned over the years, being a couple of PowerCleans, a Maytag-Voyager, and several versions of the GlobalWash, and have always been happy and impressed with the results. I say ďnearly everyĒ thinking of a very particular GE Nautilus we had growing up that *needed* those heavy options, haha

@mark_wpduet - Thanks! So weíve actually completely moved in this last couple of years. I suppose I should have changed my profile location tag by now, lol. The kitchen we had before wasnít awful, but was still very mid-2000s dated and the layout wasnít great. Iíll have to get before pictures put up too.

And yes, this machine basically has the same AC motor now that the Maytags have had post-Voyager design, running at around 230ish watts. The Whirlpool 920 I had was the high efficiency wet rotor pump of the GlobalWash platform that ran at 55W if I remember right. That dishwasher was given to my grandparents and has been happily washing away since August of 2018 and my granddad loves it. He likes checking the filter but comments regularly about how thereís never anything to clean off it, and he just likes to keep it looked after.

@lakewebsterkid - thank you! Thatís nice to hear. And the main silverware basket is all one piece on this, similar to the all metal one in the Maytags, but that front rhombus shaped section is a separate cup that clips to the front of the rack. Itís actually from when I had the black stainless KitchenAid KDFE104H for a while and ordered it, and of course kept it until now where it still fits the same way.

Post# 1145911 , Reply# 15   4/6/2022 at 00:48 (749 days old) by Egress (Oregon)        

very exciting to see you're happy with it, I'm getting the same model soon. excited to see how it will deal with egg residue on our pans, something our old point voyager couldn't touch...

Post# 1145912 , Reply# 16   4/6/2022 at 01:00 (749 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

Great detailed review, glad you're happy with your purchase.


I have a 2 year old KDTE254ESS1 and feel the same way, never a dirty item. Love this DW.  I use the Pro wash cycle and it works perfectly. I long ago got rid of the top portion of the silverware basket, hate the fussiness of placing each piece in it's own slot.  I just toss the utensils in some up some down and all come out spotless. I wish my third rack was as functional as the newer models, but that is a minor issue. At 39 db it's all but silent which I like.


Hope you are as happy with the rest of your KA kitchen appliances as you are with the DW.

Post# 1145946 , Reply# 17   4/6/2022 at 23:39 (748 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        
Love it!

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Wow! Great write-up Andrew. And your kitchen is absolutely beautiful and inspiring!

Post# 1145968 , Reply# 18   4/7/2022 at 13:06 (748 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

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Great review and a nice kitchen. It took me a while to realize that the light above the sink is actually a HydroSweep. 😁

Post# 1145987 , Reply# 19   4/7/2022 at 14:47 (747 days old) by peteski50 (New York)        

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Andrew thanks for the photos and the extensive review. Best of Luck

Post# 1146077 , Reply# 20   4/8/2022 at 20:20 (746 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
wash action

Does this dishwasher alternate wash arms? If so, which do you hear more of?

Post# 1146078 , Reply# 21   4/8/2022 at 20:28 (746 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        

When will whirlpool use this washing system on their own line?


Post# 1146081 , Reply# 22   4/8/2022 at 20:53 (746 days old) by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

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seem your kitchenaid dishwasher is a higer model then mine my dishwasher is the kitchenaid kps204 model

Post# 1146153 , Reply# 23   4/9/2022 at 21:31 (745 days old) by Cam2s (Nebraska)        

Thank you for the detailed write up, always much appreciated. It seems that Whirlpool has really made a quality product with these dishwashers. Glad to see some real engineering, build quality, and innovation coming back to the Maytag and KitchenAid brand. I'm also glad to see Whirlpool differentiating their product line across some of the brands. In the Point Voyager days, Whirlpool, Kenmore, Maytag, and KitchenAid were all basically the same machine. Before these hit the market, if I had been in the market for a brand new machine I probably would have only considered Bosch or Miele. I would for sure put one of these on the shopping list now.

@Marky_Mark, sounds like you really have quite the arsenal of TOL high performance machines. There must never be a dirty dish in your house!

Post# 1146165 , Reply# 24   4/10/2022 at 00:22 (745 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
whirlpool wash system

What is whirlpool doing to their own wash system? How are they different from their kitchenaid and maytag counterparts?

Post# 1146353 , Reply# 25   4/12/2022 at 10:47 (743 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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The Whirlpool wash system is exactly the same except with a manual clean filter cup.
Slightly different design style wash arms. Middle Upper arm is plastic.
Wash patterns all the same.
3rd rack is either a shallow flat rack, or the same flex rack in the Maytag.

Post# 1148258 , Reply# 26   5/7/2022 at 23:37 (717 days old) by Egress (Oregon)        

Our 604 finally got installed the other day, and after 3 loads I'm already blown away by its performance. Rice, guacamole, and burnt on residue is no match for this dishwasher, even on the middle rack. the top rack is amazing, and its insanely quiet. No complaints, I'll eventually make a post about it myself.

Post# 1148320 , Reply# 27   5/8/2022 at 18:05 (716 days old) by Jben (AL)        
Help me with the KA platform history over the past decade

Regarding the history of the KA platforms discussed above; was it like this:

- Approx. 10-15 years ago it was the "Point Voyager" wash mechanism that had the built-in 4-blade stainless steel chopper (Familiar with this platform).

- Around 2015 it was changed to the "GlobalWash" platform (was this design also used on the WP and Maytag of that era? )

- Around 2021 the GlobalWash was replaced by the MicroClean system - is this correct?

Was the "PowerClean" considered a separate platform or is that referring what I remember as PowerScrub which was those extra jets on the lower back wall so you could place extra dirty items directly facing those rear jets.

I'm trying to better understand the changes KA / WP made in their DW line since the "Point Voyager" model that we purchased around 2011 (if memory is correct). Nice to learn that this recent platform is performing so well...

Post# 1148335 , Reply# 28   5/9/2022 at 00:56 (716 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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2014/2015 is when the initial MicroClean wash system was introduced. Found on upper end models in Kenmore Elite, KitchenAid, and Maytags. Late 2020 was when the updated miroClean design with the removable/cleanable large debris cup. Found on the KitchenAids with the Flex Rack 3rd rack and essentially all Maytag models. The 39 dB KitchenAids still have the filter you have to clean.

Post# 1148336 , Reply# 29   5/9/2022 at 01:45 (716 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

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Those interested in the Point Voyager design:

Post# 1148338 , Reply# 30   5/9/2022 at 05:55 (716 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        

I remember when I got one in 2004. It sounded like a gentle rainfall compared to my first dishwasher. It's interesting how these had a dual pump system, while my previous one used a solenoid to drain the water.

Post# 1148339 , Reply# 31   5/9/2022 at 06:09 (716 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
whirlpool's latest platform

Didn't Whirlpool move to the microclean filtration on their own platform?

Post# 1148346 , Reply# 32   5/9/2022 at 10:03 (716 days old) by Egress (Oregon)        

It looks like most of whirlpool models have the new sump design but are still using the manual clean filter.

Post# 1148431 , Reply# 33   5/10/2022 at 19:35 (714 days old) by rayjay (Carteret, New Jersey)        
KDTM604 model,

Hello everyone. I have this model for 3 weeks now. I replaced two Bosch Benchmark dishwashers in a period of 6 years both with the same error code 'E!5' (Tub separated from the back wall). Luckily I purchased the extended warranted that my appliance store offers, and was refunded the total amount plus tax. I really liked the Bosch so I decided to but the Thermador (made by Bosch). With the supply chain problem the dishwasher would take 8-12 months, but I ordered it anyway. Since I cook and bake a lot, I was annoyed that it would take this long. The sore I purchased it from has a scratch and dent section. I usually do not want to buy anything that is scratched and dented, but something told me to check it out. Well I found this same model (KDTM604 model). My good friend who is the Assistant Manager helped me check it out. The machine did not have a scratch or dent on it. Both the supply and drain hoses were attached, the mounting clips, hose clamps and manuals were inside the machine. My friend stqted that this machine was probably set up to deliver and install, the the customer decided he did not want it. The machine was never used. The machine's original price tag was $1549.00, then marked down to $933.00. I finally paid $700.00 for the machine and another friend installed it.

It has only been 3 weeks, and the results have been 'STELLAR'. The 3rd upper rack is outstanding, being it has the wash tubes. I used a lot of utensils, mixer dough hooks and beaters, and food processor blades. Everything comes out perfect. The 3rd upper rack on the Bosch washed well, providing you did not place a bowl or food processor bowl in the middle rack which impeded the washing on the 3rd rack. I had to put the food processor blades on the middle rack for them to get clean, but you can easily cut yourself if you are not careful.
The loading space inside the machine is phenominal. I ab able to put a 7 qt. pot in the middle rack without adjusting it. The machine holds so much more withe the flexibility of that 3rd rack. Cups, glasses, cereal bowls with stuck on cereal, soup bowls with dried on psplit pea soup come out clean. The drying is superb. Plastics come out dry without a water spot. When the cycles is done ther is no water on the door or tub. This truly a great machine. The express cycle works very well too. I use this a lot when I cook on weekends. I usually do at leat 2 loads on a Saturday and Sunday.

I will create a new thread and post pictures as I use the machine more.

I think Kitchenaid should advertise more on this great machine!

Post# 1148432 , Reply# 34   5/10/2022 at 19:38 (714 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        

What motor is whirlpool using on their own line as opposed to the maytag and kitchenaid with microclean filtration?

Post# 1148440 , Reply# 35   5/10/2022 at 20:16 (714 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Ray, it' so good to see you!!! I look forward to your postings. Ugh, Greg (Gasnky1) had the same problem with his Bosch 800. I bought mine last May when my Kenmore Elite started flashing error codes and I knew electronic parts owuld be a problem. So I bit the bullet. There were no Flex Rack KitchenAids available. And an entry level KA just couldn't grab my excitement. And I wasn't going to wait until August to get a new dishwasher. I'd already lived without a dishwasher for 6 weeks when the said Kenmore Elite had the pump go completely out at month 23 of ownership.

Post# 1148457 , Reply# 36   5/10/2022 at 23:59 (714 days old) by Egress (Oregon)        

Bad news, I went to take a load out of ours last night, and the 3rd rack stuck. after I took it off of its slides, both the slides fell into the dishwasher :(... It looks like it is missing the tub nuts to hold the slides on, and the tub is even bent inwards on the left side :/... guess we'll be getting a new one again.

Post# 1149208 , Reply# 37   5/21/2022 at 13:08 (704 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I know I said I was going to come back and post the rest of the kitchen, and I haven't forgotten. We've just had a surge of busy events one after another the last few weeks and I haven't had a chance to sit down lol.

I've had a bit of a weird issue with the dishwasher that now seems to be resolved but I wanted to share my findings, but I'll go into that afterwards.

Here are some shots of the whole kitchen, plus the butler's pantry, with the before photos at the end.

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Post# 1149209 , Reply# 38   5/21/2022 at 13:10 (704 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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The befores, pre-April 2021

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Post# 1149215 , Reply# 39   5/21/2022 at 13:36 (704 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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And then finally, close-ups of the fridge, cooktop and oven/microwave

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Post# 1149232 , Reply# 40   5/21/2022 at 16:09 (703 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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The cooktop knobs to me are reminiscent to the extremely early JennAir downdraft cooktops.

Post# 1149245 , Reply# 41   5/21/2022 at 19:53 (703 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

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I love how you incorporated your Power Clean into your kitchen. I would love to have 2 dishwashers if I had room. Most days I have to wash my pots and pans by hand.

Post# 1149249 , Reply# 42   5/21/2022 at 20:17 (703 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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Absolutely gorgeous kitchen Andrew!!! Was it expensive to reconfigure the layout? And looking forward to hearing more about your other appliances.

Post# 1149270 , Reply# 43   5/22/2022 at 06:29 (703 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
to murando531...

What were your findings with this dishwasher?

Post# 1149411 , Reply# 44   5/24/2022 at 10:52 (701 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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@littlegreeny - Not as much as we would have thought, but we handled the majority of the work to rearrange the wiring and plumbing for the fridge, which wasn't too difficult at all. The only parts we left to be professionally done were the addition of the second 20A line for the upper oven, and the gas line to the kitchen. Our house already had existing gas hookup for the fireplace, but to add the additional for the cooktop required a change to the diameter of our main supply, and legally that all has to be done professionally anyway to stay within code. Otherwise, we handled the demo with help, donated the cabinets and old appliances, except the fridge and obviously my cherished PowerClean (the fridge went to my grandparents' to replace their 2003 Kenmore Elite that was hanging by a thread).

We also took care of repairing and leveling all the drywall in the areas that were going to be clear of upper cabinets, painting, and all the plumbing and appliance installs. The cabinets and the countertop were contracted because of the specialized tools and experience a professional is going to have and the finesse and finish that comes with that, that my husband and I just wouldn't have been comfortable doing alone (and would have taken us 4-5x the time and probably more money).

Post# 1149415 , Reply# 45   5/24/2022 at 11:16 (701 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
So now for my weird dishwasher issue.

Over the past couple of months, I've been trudging through a tub of Costco-Kirkland "Platinum Clean" pacs. Overall they've done fine; they clean very well and leave minimal residue. I think Cascade's Complete and Platinum still has the upper edge in overall performance, but these are better than I'd expect and they save a little money.

Well, for a few weeks now, I've noticed that the upper wash arm of my machine has slowed in rotation compared to the past year of ownership. The upper arm is the most noticeable wash level on this machine's design, because the downward-aimed jets that are directed over the silverware basket are quite high in pressure, so as they sweep over the front of the tub, you can hear them hitting the very points at the corners where the door meets the tub bottom. They're much quieter if you have bowls or something loaded right along the front of the lower basket.

That said, it's pretty easy to know when something sounds off. And definitely easy to hear when that arm has stopped altogether, which has now been happening frequently, to the point of every cycle. But only after the dispenser door opens. Nearly every cycle, when the upper arm is active, it'll be rotating just fine, but when the dispenser opens and that detergent starts mixing into the water, the arm will gradually get slower, and over the course of a couple of minutes will stop altogether, still spraying at full blast, which is especially noticeable when it's sitting aimed right at the door. I'll open the door to investigate and there's NOTHING blocking it from turning. So I've done some monitoring and got the trusty camera out to see exactly what was happening, and sure enough, the arm literally just slows to a crawl and finally just..stops. I took a video and uploaded it from my phone, so it's not clipped or edited, but you can watch how the lower arm rotates just fine, but switches to the upper and stalls, with no drop in pressure. There's no sudsing (which you can see briefly on the bottom), the water level is at the proper level (which shouldn't be an issue either given this machine's flowmeter inlet design).

Here's the video. You'll see it do the four test pulses at restart, then the lower arm for a short bit, and then will switch to the upper until it stalls.


Post# 1149416 , Reply# 46   5/24/2022 at 11:29 (701 days old) by Egress (Oregon)        

seems like theres a lot of water spraying out of the upper wash arm mount, but I also wonder if the pac is somehow fouling the pump, IE not dissolving fully or something. have you tried normal powder or gel yet to see if the symptom continues? or maybe run a cycle with no detergent?

Post# 1149418 , Reply# 47   5/24/2022 at 12:10 (701 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

murando531's profile picture
So fast forward to now, I've ditched the Costco pacs; gave the half tub to our neighbor because they could care less how the machine is working (they've replaced their dishwasher twice since we've lived here and they've all been the cheapest contractor-special WPs and GEs you can buy). I went and bought a small thing of Cascade Complete pacs, because in all my years using and owning dishwashers, I've never had a complaint or issue with their pac based detergents, other than Platinum seeming a bit overkill and sudsing, and I've now run 4 full cycles with this machine without any issue. The upper arm sounds just as perky and spry as it's always been.

Until just today, I had about a half load of dishes that needed to just go ahead and run, because we've been busy and I don't want dirty dishes sitting more than a couple of days and smelling rank, and I decided to try using a half dispenser dose of the Great Value powder I've had in an air tight container to use as occasional prewash and to soak really stubborn pots or baking dishes in the sink. I'll be d*mned if I'm not sitting at the kitchen table working through bills and listening to the dishwasher and the upper arm starts the same gradual slowdown and finally stops. It took three wash level changes to finally get the arm to slowly start rotating again and back to normal. During any of this, the lower arm, the upper spinner, and the spray tubes all rotate just fine.

Two things I will add that I've tried with this situation so far:

1. The upper arm assembly on this new platform does NOT come apart. I have to say, the GlobalWash did it best with the easy quarter-turn locking nuts on both arms. On this new design, the lower comes out easily with a counterclockwise turn, but the upper seems permanently installed. I've tried tightening the center hub where the metal arm meets the plastic center, and it'll move barely, but I'm not sure it's doing anything because I have no clue if it's even threaded, or just a snap in, and I'm scared to force anything for fear of breaking and ruining the whole manifold. That said, "tightening" it seemed to help slightly with the blow-by of water from the center, but not that much. This is definitely a disappointment for me with Whirlpool, one for taking a step back with no way to easily remove the upper arm, and two for the amount of spewing from the center hub. The GlobalWash design was far superior with very minimal leaking.

2. I tried swapping in the Whirlpool version upper arm, because these arm and manifold assemblies do easily unlock from the rack. The plastic arm also doesn't have the issue of the metal one where there's a plastic-to-metal connection; it seems to be just the arm connected into the supply manifold. I'm unsure if either arm design has any sort of nylon bearing inside to help with rotation and sealing.

Anyway, the plastic arm did the SAME THING. Did just fine rotating until the detergent dispensed, and slowed to a stop. Again, no pressure drop, no sudslocking, nothing. No change in motor sound or speed.

So my official conclusion with all of this is that I'm officially done with any generic branded detergents, even as "nice" as Costco or Sam's makes their brand pacs to be. There's obviously something in them, be it just cheaper ingredients or some kind of very microscopically fine silt they use as filler for weight, but it's obviously causing some kind of friction in this wash arm's center hub, and if it's doing this to the wash arm, what is it also doing to my motor seals and diverter? It's even more evident given that with the Cascade Complete pacs, even the first wash made a night and day difference in the sound and rotation of all three wash arms, along with having no residues to speak of on the machine's tub surfaces.

I'm sure Technology Connections would hate me saying this after his videos about dishwasher pacs on Youtube, but I have to disagree that the cheaper detergents work "just as well" as the brand names. There's obviously something in those pretty Cascade colors that not only cleans and shines better, but is better for the machine's health as well.

Post# 1149422 , Reply# 48   5/24/2022 at 13:27 (701 days old) by Egress (Oregon)        

I wonder if the generic detergent is plugging some of the holes on the microfilter and taking a while to dissolve/dislodge from the filter? the motor rpm wouldn't change significantly and the flow might decrease barely enough to prevent the arm from turning.

Post# 1149450 , Reply# 49   5/24/2022 at 18:23 (700 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
It reminds me of the problems I've had with a couple of those cheap plastic impulse lawn sprinklers where they'd work for a while and then stop rotating altogether even though you can freely spin them, plus leaking around the center hub, just like that spray arm seems to be doing.

Post# 1149453 , Reply# 50   5/24/2022 at 18:38 (700 days old) by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

pierreandreply4's profile picture
if you have this dishwasher detergent brand i highly reccomend it thats what i use in my kitchenaid dishwasher and wash perfectly you can alsoorder it on amazon if not in your local stores

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Post# 1149462 , Reply# 51   5/24/2022 at 20:34 (700 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture

It's so weird you brought this up...I've been using Finish powerball for YEARS...When I was getting low, I thought I'd try Costco Kirkland pacs. They clean really well and leave NO film at all..but what I do notice is they leave a slight smell on the glasses...Like this faint hint of it and that drives me CRAZY..Powerball did not do this.

I haven't noticed any problems...I'd say I've done maybe 25 loads with the costco pacs so far...not nearly half a tub of them though...I planned on using them all and then just going back to powerball...but not if it's going to ruin my dishwasher..It doesn't seem to be harming it at all though. Sounds the same as it always has.

Post# 1149465 , Reply# 52   5/24/2022 at 21:44 (700 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        
Costco Platinum Clean

I have been using them for the first time and I actually really like them! No odor issues here. Every now and then the top rack will squeak when pulling it out, thats about it.

Post# 1149527 , Reply# 53   5/25/2022 at 15:53 (699 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I don't notice any issues of any kind other than the slight smell...My machine sounds the same as it always has...I always run citric acid through it empty once a month or so on longest cycle...that really makes the racks slide better and cleans the inside of hard water..

Post# 1149560 , Reply# 54   5/25/2022 at 22:55 (699 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)        

iiijohnnymaciii's profile picture
With the longer cycles on newer machines and using rinse aid I havenít found the need to use pacs. Cascade Powder seems to be more than adequate, cheaper, and easy on the pump. You could always try some powder and see how well things wash.

Post# 1149561 , Reply# 55   5/25/2022 at 23:09 (699 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)        

supersuds's profile picture
I noticed the slight smell on dishes from the Kirkland pacs also, and easily decided I'd not use them again because of that. I even considered returning them to Costco, but managed to get through the whole tub.

I thought the point of Technology Connections' videos was that dishwashers actually worked BETTER, not just as well, with detergent in the prewash, which you don't get by using a pac in the main wash only (as we all know). In any case, you know what's working well for you, so no reason not to stick with it.

Post# 1149562 , Reply# 56   5/25/2022 at 23:46 (699 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

littlegreeny's profile picture
Thanks for the reply Andrew. It's wonderful you were able save money by doing many things yourselves and leaving the complicated stuff to the pros.

Post# 1149598 , Reply# 57   5/26/2022 at 15:41 (698 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
Weird I haven't used the powdered dishwasher detergent in FOREVER!! Maybe when I'm done with the packs...I'll get some powder instead...I'm not sure why I never thought to do that...

As for dish liquid. I've decided green Palmolive is my favorite...I discovered this because they were out of dawn at Costco... I actually like the Palmolive better. The smell is amazing.

Post# 1149605 , Reply# 58   5/26/2022 at 20:28 (698 days old) by Tomdawg (Des moines)        

Iím a finish powerball user as well! Though, Costco recently switched to powerball quantum.. so far is cleans way better than the original powerball that Iíve used, plus it doesnít smell.
Iíve used Kirkland as well, toward the end of the wash cycle, the upper spray arm would whine as it rotated. It was weird. It went away when I went back to the powerballs

As far as powder detergent, I was a die hard cascade complete fan. I felt they changed their detergent and itís no longer that great. It always left a white film on my dishes. Keep in mind I only used 2 teaspoons in a load- that was with hard water. Now I have soft water and only use about a teaspoon in a load and comes out great!

Post# 1149608 , Reply# 59   5/26/2022 at 22:10 (698 days old) by Egress (Oregon)        

from what I've heard, white film = too much detergent (esp if you rinse dishes) or you need to use rinse aid.

Post# 1149609 , Reply# 60   5/26/2022 at 22:20 (698 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

from what I've heard, white film = too much detergent (esp if you rinse dishes) or you need to use rinse aid.
Depends on the specific cause.† Too little detergent with hard water doesn't condition the water properly and mineral residue leaves cloudiness.† Too much detergent with softened water and dishware rinsed-clean-before-loading causes etching, which is physical damage.† The difference is determined in that mineral residue wipes-clear away, etching does not.

Post# 1149614 , Reply# 61   5/27/2022 at 00:14 (698 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Andrew, the kitchen is absolutely incredible!!!!

I have to admit, when this new design was released, I said to myself that when the Elite bit the dust, this was what I was going to go after. But alas, not meant to be with supply chain issues as stated above. I've been overall very pleased with the Bosch. I love the variable speed pressure. I've not had to be mindful of things flipping in the top rack since 2006 when the GSD1200 went out the door. And both Eltes, glasses & mugs weren't always stellar. I've never had a dishwasher thoroughly scrub clean mugs and cups placed on the cup rack ever until the Bosch. And zeolite drying is amazing. I'm amazed at how much it can hold, although not always intuitive. the perfect Bosch would be the Bosch washing and drying system and American size racks.

I think Finish Powerball Max-in-1 in outstanding. I have some Finish Quantum for extremely filthy loads, which isn't needed much, but I have them when deemed.

Post# 1149620 , Reply# 62   5/27/2022 at 07:34 (698 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
I agree with you saving quantum for those really bad loads because I find that even in hard foams too much.. Powerball doesn't...that's why I've always avoided quantum.

Post# 1149622 , Reply# 63   5/27/2022 at 09:14 (698 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
I'm not having foaming issues with the Bosch. No slowing down of upper wash arm like I experienced for both my Elites. I had foaming issues with Cascade products.

Post# 1149654 , Reply# 64   5/27/2022 at 18:15 (697 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

mark_wpduet's profile picture
Well...Keep in mind this was like 5 or more years ago. I got a sample of Finish Quantum. Back then, I think Finish had just came out with Quantum..Prior to that, I think powerball was their top shelf...but then quantum replaced powerball as top shelf...I used the sample (this was in my Point Voyager Whirlpool that's long dead)...but I remember listening to it wash thinking WTH?? It was like struggling to wash...I opened it and saw all this foam but let it finish through the cycle..everything came clean and rinsed...but I never used the stuff after that. Things could have changed drastically since then...but really...I've never had a single problem with powerball so I've always used that.

I thought about your Bosch when I was reading reviews on one of the big box store sites...some of them were really bad. But I remembered you LOVED it can't be that bad.

Sorry for making this thread so long Andrew

Post# 1150003 , Reply# 65   5/31/2022 at 23:39 (693 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
Cascade fan

I am a huge fan of Cascade. I like the platinum for super dirty loads.

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