Thread Number: 90472  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Look ma, it's heat pump! (VZug WA6000 & TR6000)
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Post# 1150155   6/3/2022 at 10:36 (679 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

OK, so, this is gonna be a long one.


The VZug 6000 series washer, model 11025, is (IMO) the state of the art washer in Europe.

Biggest feature setting it apart is its heat pump.
The machine has 2 1400W heating elements. You can run it with both hooked up at 16A/230V or 10A/400V 2 phase or 10A/230V with just one.
Those allow for heat boosting really quickly.

But that's nothing special for swiss made washers.
What is its stand alone feature is its 400W compressor system.
That pulls heat from a small water tank and deposits it into the wash water by the means of a recirculation pump circuit and the integrated heat exchanger.
The machine setup allows for 500W of compressor power, but on average it pulls about 400W and deposits about 1kW of heating power.
That means you can get up to 3.8kW of heating power total.

The machine allows you to select 3 efficiency level.
The lowest rating is about heating as fast as possible. It first runs the heat pump for a few minutes before running all systems at once.
The medium level still heats to the selected temp. However it stages the heating one after the other heating as much as possible with just the heat pump. That means you can take advantage of that 2.5 factor between used power and effective heat output. Depending on temperature that saves up to 50% of energy - but since it's only 1kW heating power it takes a long time. And it only works up to about 50C.
The highest efficiency setting adds a reduced target temp to save that little bit extra by extending the wash time.

Effectively, since wash cycles on these are very fast anyway, you can wash at target temp with no trickery and still save a ton of energy with no extended wash times.


It also has an active load balancing system.
Hollow pockets in the drum lifters are filled with water to balance loads very finely without redistributing.

The amazing thing is the simplicity of the system.
There are no seals or so - the water is basically just aimed as a focussed stream onto a collection rim that then guides the water into the respective pocket. So no moving parts per se.
The most "complex" part is the drum position sensor - which is a very simple sensor aswell.

It's not as much about speed.
It is really mostly about allowing quiet operation and reducing wear on the dampers while not having to set to cracy out of balance limits.


It's also has a true turbidity sensor. That allows for efficient rinsing with perfect results.



The dryer appears very simple.

It has an inverter compressor and motor.
Very efficient, pretty fast and pretty quiet.

It doesn't have a seperate blower motor for efficiency reasons.

As a trade of though it has something that no other dryer has as far as I am aware.
It uses a (bought in) fan with a specifically optimised air flow baffle.
That allows quieter, more efficient air flow even in reverse direction.



And since last weekend, I have a set in my bathroom!





Post# 1150156 , Reply# 1   6/3/2022 at 10:44 (679 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Set up

The whole mounting plate thing is kinda weird.

No idea why they do it that way - it makes leveling the washer hard.



They aren't light, but ever so slightly less heavier than Mieles.

It's nice though to have an included stacking system.



The dryer dosen't have a condenser tank, so you have to hook it up to a drain.
Why it comes without the drain pipe connected so you have to remove a cover and connect the pipe yourself is a very good question...

The washer allows to connect the drain pipe outside yourself (hose clamp) which is very nice so you can just use any length hose as needed.

It comes with a 4 wire cable pre installed.
That's just rated at 10A though and dosen't come with a plug fitted.
They do sell several different exchange cables as replacements though.
Why they don't just rate that cable 16A and attach a plug as needed is beyond me - surely has to be cheaper to do one cable for any country set up and just fit the plug as needed.
Had to do some wiring trickery and some crimping to make everything correctly rated and to run at 230V 16A single phase with full heating power.




So yeah, not so premium installation experience.


Post# 1150157 , Reply# 2   6/3/2022 at 10:57 (679 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Usage

I have to say - impressed.

I did maybe 10 loads so far.



The washer is quick.

The preset, low soil level does everything up to 60C on the medium efficiency setting in under 2h.
And it's honestly enough for most things.

Rinsing is very interesting.
It adds water step by step based on turbidity level.
That means the 3 preset rinses perform admirably with as little usage as possible.



The dryer is the only one drying loads perfectly dry even on the economy setting still quite quickly.

Haven't felt the needed to adjust it yet and have to have any normal load take longer than 90min so far.

However, the drum is on the smaller side.
It's 105l which was average 20 years ago or so but today is a bit small - most dryer drums are a good 10% larger nowadays.




Cycle selection is quite smart.

The display turns on after you close the door.
It greets you with the temperature selections for the normal "Coloureds" cycles.

Either you select a temperature or you go to the "fabric type" selection that's basically all your additional cycles.


Once you selected a temp you can select options.
There are for example several soil and rinse levels - that's where you find stuff like your "Anti Mites" or "Skin Care settings".
Or you can select the "Easy Care" delicate option - that means you can even run a hygiene delicates cycle!

Same with the dryer - you select dryness level first ans then add options like eco, speed, easy care and/or low temp.


Have to say so far really impressed.

The user experience makes a ton of sense, feels very high quality and very much up to date.

Given this washer is even cheaper than Mieles TOL offering, I don't see a reason to choose a Miele over this.


Post# 1150158 , Reply# 3   6/3/2022 at 11:03 (679 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Pictures



  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 17         View Full Size
Post# 1150162 , Reply# 4   6/3/2022 at 13:18 (679 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Dang, I had forgotten to ask you whether you might get these based on the hints you gave. Very exciting! Okay, I'll have to read your posts now...

Post# 1150243 , Reply# 5   6/4/2022 at 13:39 (678 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

Congratulations henene4!!

That is a gorgeous washer and dryer set!

I have long been fascinated with the heat pump washing machine concept.

I was not aware of the water balancing system. That sounds like a great innovation. I am frequently frustrated with the Miele's repeated attempts at rebalancing small loads, such as 5 dress shirts, which it should be able to easily spin without damage. I'm interested to hear if you feel the balancing system prevents excess attempts for rebalancing.

Do you have the washing machine hooked up to hot water or cold water only?

Very much looking forward to hearing your impressions as you use the machines more!


Post# 1150252 , Reply# 6   6/4/2022 at 16:44 (678 days old) by Jerrod_Six (Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        
Big Congratulations!

I would love to see some videos of these machines in action. I wonder what that program for underwear does?

Congrats again!


Post# 1150302 , Reply# 7   6/5/2022 at 03:02 (677 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Am looking forward to more feedback and pics of the dryer, too. I'd also like to know where you bought the set from. The source I found only had the V6000 and it was about the same as a Little Giant.

Three are some YouTubers that have the washer

http://youtube.com/user/juliengenf
http://youtube.com/user/DrTeck
http://youtube.com/channel/UCNQUPIEklctQDNVKKi-eIew


Post# 1150303 , Reply# 8   6/5/2022 at 04:34 (677 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I actually bought them from fust.ch. Back at the end of April the exchange rate of the swizz frank was lower, so I just had to rent a car and drive the 2000+km. On the way I stopped back home and stored the Miele set back there.

Picked them up in Bregenz.


The "Underwear" cycle probably should be called "Lingerie" cycle.
Haven't used it yet, but the cycle description and time suggest a delicate cycle.


The washer is cold only - the V6000 is only available in cold fill.
The set apart feature from the V4000 is the heat pump and if you have a hot fill available, that would probably be still cheaper to run.


The VAS (vibration absorbtion system) doesn't really cut down balancing attempts.
It did abort one interim spin when washing a duvet and mattress cover.
Otherwise it really is more about spinning at minimum noise no matter the distribution.
Overall, I would say it is just as sensitive to OOB loads as the Miele - just that even if the load isn't perfectly balanced, it is still spinning just as quietly.


Post# 1150305 , Reply# 9   6/5/2022 at 05:22 (677 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Congratulations on the purchase of the V-Zug set. I have always had a fascination for the brand, especially because of the Unimatic T, an iconic machine. But the whole brand is great. I hope to hear and see more of your machines.

Post# 1150308 , Reply# 10   6/5/2022 at 06:00 (677 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        
Swiss retailer

logixx's profile picture
Ah, that explains it.

Post# 1150370 , Reply# 11   6/5/2022 at 21:34 (676 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

As you learn more about the machines I will be interested to hear your impressions of differences in washing behavior from Miele. Are cycles generally shorter or longer, do they use more or less water, how does the agitation differ? Solely from reading manuals my impression of Swiss machines has been of faster performance for a small sacrifice in efficiency while Miele is prioritizing efficiency above all else, especially in the latest machines.

Post# 1150386 , Reply# 12   6/6/2022 at 01:51 (676 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Not gonna promise anything, but was planning on takeing some footage this week.


To the question comparing it to Miele:

Mieles PowerWash system would generally save energy over this on partial loads especially when choosing the quick wash times with lower efficiency ("Good" efficiency setting).

BUT 30/40C cottons with 3 rinses would take 1:50 in the Miele no matter what.
No way to get that quicker.

This gives me the same cycle setup in less time without the PowerWash limitations.
And the same efficiency - when selecting "Very good" efficiency setting wash cycles are under 2h and use about the same due to the heat pump.


Now, I wouldn't buy a normal Swiss machine if it was only hooked up to cold.
Sure it's fast, but I don't have to spend 2 grand or so to get fast wash cycles with normal usage.
If a cheap hot water connection is available then PowerWash can't be run on Miele machines, thus efficiency is the same for either, and the Swiss made machine is just faster.

This machine basically gives me the efficiency of a hot water connection with the fast cycle times when needed without the finicky PowerWash.

So, if you want a cold only connected washer either get this or a Miele PowerWash.
If it's hot connected get a V4000 or a Schulthess.
IMO that is.



Water usage is way more variable.
The main wash is the same low water level regardless of load.

The rinse sensor does do a lot of adjusting.

With the Miele, a 4 fill cycle would use the same no matter what load was in there as long as no oversuds condition was detected.


This makes Mieles just look "simple minded".
There is no load sensing per se - so no cycle time drop really.

But rinsing is so dynamic.
The first rinse starts with saturation tumbles until a minimum water level is reached.
Then normal tumbling commences while the machine adds water to maintain an exact fill level.
Rinses are quite long (6-8 minutes). If during the time of the first rinse high turbidity is sensed water levels are raised progressively.

Drain, spin.
Second rinse starts with a small fill and then a pause.
Here turbidity is checked again - if water is clean second rinse is skipped and softener is added straight away.
If there is turbidity the same rinse pattern as rinse one is repeated.

If at the end of the second rinse turbidity is still high final rinse water level is upped aswell.

Means that even though basically every load what so ever runs 3 rinses, you can get anywhere from 3 low level rinses to 3 very high level rinses.

So even though a cycle is only supposed to use 65-70l for a full 8kg load, you can wash way less full loads and end up with 90-100l of water usage.
But in general the machine appears to use more water - I'll check my average usage report later and report was the average through all is.
I can say the Miele used around 60l for a not quite full load with 3 rinses and no increased water level.




A big point why the Swiss machines are that much faster is simply the fact they are usually running 2 heaters.
Most Swiss made machines come as 2 phase 400V 10A default.
230V single phase 16A usually gives you the same wash times.
But once you hook them up to 230V single phase 10A, heating power drops to the same as most other washers and cycle times jump up to similar levels.

But at least here, the default main wash times are below one hour (even medium soil with the medium efficiency setting results in main wash times below 75min usually) while Miele defaults to 90min main washes.

I always thought that most EU washers just have excessive main wash times.
Don't know why 2+h of agitation are needed for partial loads.
And then you select a time reduction option and end up with shortend rinses and spins.

These machines allow you to choose so long main washes if needed yet still also for example allow you to even run the shortest possible main wash with the maximum number of rinses and a full final spin.




TL;DR:

The Mieles are by no means bad washers.
They just don't offer the flexibility these do - no matter how much you spend.

And before I spend 2 grand on a Miele that is pretty good, if these are available for the same amount, I don't see how Miele can justify their position any longer.

The Miele will be an incredible "No thoughts" laundry machine - but that comes with trade offs of course.


Post# 1150423 , Reply# 13   6/6/2022 at 12:56 (676 days old) by bewitched (Italy)        

I have an older vzug but pretty similar to new ones. the machine has a plastic tub and weights half the weigth of Miele machines this is why it needs that thing colled on the floor. Mine is installed without it but the machine slips every time it spins. The balance system with water mine (i think it is called VAS) has takes ages to balance. It runs continuously at the same slow speed for a while and the counter locks not advancing for all the time the washer does this thing. you can hear the noise of the water that fills the parts of the drum for the balance. It washes well and rinses well but with longer programs and increased water level. being near switzerland i went several times to visit shops and sales persons always advised Miele in respect of Zug. Heathpump in my opinion is an unnecessary gadget since modern machines already have a very low consumption of electricity and this thing is quite prone to cause faults. this is what many technicians in the area told me. vzug basic machines (adorina series) are made by whirlpool which is really something not to be proud of especially as Vzug proposes as a premium brand. An adorina costs twice to three times more than a similar whirlpool. Vzug make very good domestic appliances but not for the price they offer them. Open the back cover and discover the difference from the tub of the vzug and i.e an electrolux and you 'll probably see for yourself they are not so different.

Post# 1150424 , Reply# 14   6/6/2022 at 13:35 (676 days old) by rudin1969 (Italy)        
VZug

I agree. I've had a VZug with heat pump for about five years. It washes ok but the VAS system stopped working a couple of years ago. I still use it from time to time (for fun, as I have other machines). On the whole, it doesn't feel as solid as my Miele machines (W5985 and W1), which provide better washing results and garment care.

Post# 1150429 , Reply# 15   6/6/2022 at 15:40 (676 days old) by bewitched (Italy)        

Rudin the W5985 and the supertronic W 5000 are really unbeatable!

Post# 1150489 , Reply# 16   6/7/2022 at 12:51 (675 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Can't speak about reliability yet.

But the machine DOES NOT need to be bolted to the floor.
You CAN bolt the mounting plate to the floor.
But still, at least on this model, the plate only catches the back plate.
I have mine just glued to the floor with the double sided tape provided and have not had any problems.

And no VZug was ever half the weight of a Miele.
They are lighter (10 to 20kg) but not half the weight.



At least with this version I have, I can't say VAS takes long.

It does a quick 400rpm burst once it catches a balanced load to get rid of most excess water the easy way.
Then it slows down, checks again, and if still ok, starts the spin.
Before each speed up, it does a VAS cycle which haven't taken more than 30secs yet, really.



But being just an additional valve (basically) in the water connection hose and everything else being passive on the water connection side, not much to fail there.

Everything else has secondary functions so the machine would straight up not work without it.


Post# 1150916 , Reply# 17   6/12/2022 at 11:36 (670 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

Very interesting to hear your comparison of the wash times and the efficiency of the heat pump versus PowerWash, henene4. It certainly is nice to be able to get PowerWash efficiency with a little more water in the main wash as well.

The turbidity sensor sounds like a very nice way to ensure good rinsing results. Does it ever add another rinse if it canít get the final rinse as clear as it would like? Or does it only increase the water level?

I do find it quite interesting that an ultra-premium TOL machine doesnít at least have the option for hot water connection, even with the extremely efficient heat pump. It seems that some would want the option in the case of solar hot water or desiring the fastest wash times possible, but perhaps Iím just too used to American machines with 1kw heaters and they do have the option on the 4000 series machine.

Do you have any thoughts on the V-Zug versus Miele Little Giants? Those have short cycle times, powerful heaters, hot water connections, and vast numbers of cycles with extensive configurability. No PowerWash, recirculation pump, heat pump, or balancing system, however.


Post# 1151843 , Reply# 18   6/20/2022 at 20:16 (661 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
V-Zug videos on YT

mielerod69's profile picture
Hi,
there is a YouTuber called Swisslaundry802 who has recently purchased a V-Zug washing machine and has uploaded a number of videos of the machine in action. The VAS system works very well and the machine runs rather smoothly


CLICK HERE TO GO TO mielerod69's LINK


Post# 1151982 , Reply# 19   6/22/2022 at 03:19 (660 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Again - the VAS really dosen't run to give the smoothest spin possible, but to make as many spins as possible reasonably smooth.
I don't hear the VZug any less throughout my flat - just it's always that way.

I saw the VAS fail once on a very sudsy wash which I say was due to suds blocking the water from makeing it through the little air gap and into the collection rim at an appropriate rate.
It aborted that try and ran the interim spin without any VAS action.

The next one did again and worked as usual.



The washer can not add extra rinses, it can only cut a rinse if needed.
Found that actually manually adding a rinse dosen't alter water usage much - it usually leads to 2 high followed by 2 medium rinses instead of 3 high ones.

Have to do some more experimenting there!


Post# 1152034 , Reply# 20   6/22/2022 at 14:44 (660 days old) by schulthess (Switzerland)        
It does add an extra rinse

I have 3 V-Zug Adora V4000 installed. At least the two I regularly use do add an extra rinse when using the Ąsprintď mode and excess foam has been detected in first rinse. It does even indicate: excess foam, program extended or something like that. However, my Adora V4000 has never skipped the third rinse in normal mode. Since my laundry is not dirty and very often I want the laundry to be done quickly, I regularly use 60 degrees celsius cotton/mix with sprint for towels or 50 degrees celsius cotton/mix with Ądelicateď option for sports-wear and I add extra detergent with bigger load and never activate extra rinse, because I can rely on my Adora to give always good rinse results. This has not been the case with my Miele Passion, I had to set the maximum water level. I experienced more wear and tear with Miele, the washing phase is too long and intense.
A combination of the newest model of Miele, V-Zug and Schulthess would probably give the best machine:
- V-Zug drum, rinsing and program variations, easy to clean filter
- Schulthess duration of programs and design
- Miele user interface (M-Touch), steam-finish, and power of recirculation, sturdiness



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