Thread Number: 90533  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Miele Dynamic Rinsing?
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Post# 1150588   6/8/2022 at 18:07 (674 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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This was mentioned in another thread and I'd love to learn more. Do all Miele washers have a turbidity sensor, or just certain models?




Post# 1150622 , Reply# 1   6/9/2022 at 02:20 (673 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

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There always used to be a video by Miele on YouTube but it seems to be deleted.

Basically, the sensor rinse works on hot wash cycles where there is a large enough temp difference between the wash and the first rinse. The washer will keep rinsing (in the 1st rinse), until the water temperature sensor no longer detects an increase in water temp, meaning that the cold rinse water has been fully mixed with the hot, soapy water left in the laundry from the wash. Once the temp has stopped rising, the washer knows that fresh and soapy water have been mixed as much as possible and draining starts. That's how the video described it.

No turbidity sensor involved.


Post# 1150624 , Reply# 2   6/9/2022 at 04:32 (673 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, Thereīs a Lady on Stage)        

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Sounds like what my older Miele washer has for permanent press cycle; it's called "cyclic rinsing". No sensors involved, just a series of cold fills and drains to bring down water temperature. Washer then goes on to three rinses, then series of short graduated spins.

Post# 1150641 , Reply# 3   6/9/2022 at 09:24 (673 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Error message: FOAM

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How does the machine detect too much foam without a sensor?  My "more is better" husband has overdosed a couple of times and the window was all white with foam and an error on the display.  It's been a while so I don't remember what we did to resolve.  I most likely kept running Quick Rinse until all the suds were gone.


Post# 1150655 , Reply# 4   6/9/2022 at 12:21 (673 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Suds locks

If the machine had to add a rinse, it displays the overdose message.

That usually means there was a suds lock in the second interim spin and it was aborted.


Post# 1150668 , Reply# 5   6/9/2022 at 13:06 (673 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        
How does the machine detect foam without a sensor?

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Via the pressure sensor.

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Post# 1150669 , Reply# 6   6/9/2022 at 13:15 (673 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

At least the Novotronic series could sense extreme suds buildups during washing and heating aswell (not sure though how that reflects on the readings).

It could cancel further heating and immediately shift to a lower agitation profile.
Would happen very rarely but was a possibility.




Post# 1150830 , Reply# 7   6/11/2022 at 00:16 (671 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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Thanks for the replies. So Miele doesn't have a turbidity sensor.

Well leave it to the Koreans...The new Samsung OptiWash has one and it automatically senses soil levels during the washing cycle and adds more time or detergent.


Post# 1150836 , Reply# 8   6/11/2022 at 01:29 (671 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

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There are washer with turbidity sensors - Bosch and the Swiss Schulthess come to mind - but I can't recall Miele ever having them.

Post# 1150879 , Reply# 9   6/11/2022 at 17:37 (671 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Miele always tried to not add sensors for improved results.

So they never had them on washers.

Basically everybody else had them at some point or currently has them.


Post# 1150897 , Reply# 10   6/12/2022 at 02:47 (670 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Never understood the point of turbidity sensors in clothes washers.
I think as long as powdered detergents heavy on insoluble zeolite content exist they don`t make much sense.
The sensor could misread just the detergent alone as "heavy soil" whereas other detergents could lead to insufficient washing or rinsing.
Too many variables for my liking.



Post# 1150900 , Reply# 11   6/12/2022 at 05:44 (670 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Except for Schulthess, I don't know any washer that uses turbidity for soil sensing over here.

BSH only uses it for the rinse though for sure.
Their Auto cycles might use it for soil sensing, that's only available on iDos machines though so they might dose later? I don't know that though.


Schulthess has a mention to turn off soil sensing when either using liquid or powdered detergent in their manual - either or, don't know off the top of my head.

Have to say while on average my VZug uses about the same amount of water (my average consumption is displayed as 65l), but that is with the very small loads my flatmates wash AND the large loads I do.
The rinse sensor there really upps the rinse level quite a bit - my laundry is very well rinsed, but I do have to say a bit more efficieny and maybe higher interim spins would be nice.
But it does work!


Post# 1150901 , Reply# 12   6/12/2022 at 05:49 (670 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Just checked

Schulthess wants you to turn off the soil sensing with LIQUID detergents.

My guess would be they add the detergent, dissolve it for a few minutes, then take a reading.
That's basically the reference.
As the washer progresses through the cycle they would then just check if that has changed a lot and add time if needed.

But that's just a guess as it would allow to compensate for different detergents.

I further guess that they exactly rely on the Zeolites to get a reading.
That's why liquid detergent probably will mess that up.


Post# 1150904 , Reply# 13   6/12/2022 at 06:10 (670 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        
My flatmates

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You are sharing this set? With flatmates? Well, they must be the best flatmates in the world.

Post# 1150914 , Reply# 14   6/12/2022 at 11:11 (670 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

Launderess, my modern Miele WXR 860 still does the procedure of draining partially, adding some cold water, and repeating until the wash is cooler. It then proceeds to the normal rinsing procedure. I have only observed the behavior on the Delicates (synthetics) cycle at 60C but it may be present on other cycle and I havenít discovered it yet. I believe it is to prevent thermal shock creasing. This is separate from the Suds Cooling setting that can be activated to prevent scalding by the draining wash water if the machine drains into a sink.

My Miele does adapt the amount of water it uses in the rinses but it seems to be based on load weight and the water level sensor. Some cycles, especially the Baby Cottons cycle, will have a significantly higher rinse level if the washer is fully loaded. Using the Add Laundry function seems to default the machine to the maximum water and time settings for the cycle for the remainder of the load, presumably because it canít load sense once clothes are already wetted. Of course options such as soiling level, Water Plus, and stains options (some of which activate Water Plus) affect the rinse levels as well.

One mystery I have yet to solve is why the Table Linens / Drapes cycle adds about half the rinse water for a given rinse, tumbles for a few minutes, and then adds the remaining rinse water and tumbles more before proceeding to the interim or final spin. Iím not sure what purpose this divided addition serves. While I rarely have occasion to wash tables linens or drapes, the cycle delivers superb results with sheets and with microfiber cleaning towels and does so in a very reasonable amount of time. It also, despite what the manual incorrectly states, has three rinses standard all with good interim spins.


Post# 1150915 , Reply# 15   6/12/2022 at 11:25 (670 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

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My grandma's Miele from the early 90s would refer to the stepped cool-down as Shuttle Rinse. The manual for the model she bought afterwards (early 2000s) mentioned that the machine would default to a max load setting, if the door was opened more than a few minutes after the cycle had begun (after load sensing).

Post# 1150931 , Reply# 16   6/12/2022 at 14:57 (670 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
WXR860 Rinses

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Hippo,

I have the maximum rinse level enabled and mine will frequently add a little more water to a rinse after about a minute of tumbling, no matter the cycle.


Post# 1150937 , Reply# 17   6/12/2022 at 15:30 (670 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

littlegreeny, I believe that what youíre seeing is the machine topping up the water level to the target reading after the clothes have absorbed some water. In the Table Linen / Drapes itís about a 50/50 addition of the water and irrespective of the absorptivity of what Iím washing.

On my previous Miele, the WWB 020, I had maximum rinse level activated as well. On the WXR 860 I donít feel the need since I can add an extra rinse to get 3-4 rinses depending on the cycle and have more cycles to choose from as well to make sure there is sufficient rinsing for the load.


Post# 1150960 , Reply# 18   6/12/2022 at 23:42 (669 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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One of these times I'll turn off the maximum rinse level and run the table linen program so I can see what you're talking about with the rinse.

In addition to the max rinse level, I also turned on the allergy setting so I get 3-4 rinses on every cycle. Normal cycle defaults to 3 rinses and the table linen is 4 rinses.



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