Thread Number: 90613  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Spray Rinse vs Deep Rinse
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Post# 1151289   6/16/2022 at 02:11 (666 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
How effective are spray rinses at removing detergent when compared to a deep rinse?


Would one long 90 second spray rinse be as effective as 3 short 30 second sprays spread apart over a 5 minute spin cycle?


Why did Whirlpool in the early 2010s chose partial fill and agitate during the rinse cycle over spray rinses despite the lower water level causing greater damage to clothes?

Yesterday I timed the fill rinse fill on my Speed Queen to the Extra Large water level coming in at exactly 5 minutes. I'm thinking, what if I took 5 x 60 = 300 seconds, divided it by 3 giving me 100 seconds. 100 seconds divided by 3 = 33.3 seconds. What if top load manufacturers did 3, 30 second sprays with 90 seconds spin time in between them for the rinse cycle? This would result in 1/3 of the water being used for the rinse cycle while no major changes would have to be made to the machine.


I am also think, what if Maytag center dial washers used 2 60 second sprays instead of one 60 second spray with a followed by a deep rinse? Would this have ever been practical?





Post# 1151322 , Reply# 1   6/16/2022 at 10:21 (666 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
deep rinse

I will always use deep rinse whether I use fabric softener or not. I want all the soap rinsed out of my clothes.

Post# 1151324 , Reply# 2   6/16/2022 at 11:00 (666 days old) by ryner1988 (Indianapolis)        

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I always selected the deep rinse when I had my 2016 Whirlpool VMW machine, even though I don't use fabric softener. My wife has sensitive skin and I wanted to make sure all the detergent was rinsed out. Could never get much of a straight answer from others about how effective spray rinses are, so I wanted to play it safe in that regard.

Post# 1151329 , Reply# 3   6/16/2022 at 11:38 (666 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Effectiveness of spray rinses depends on several factors, a large one of which is the design of the water flume.  Some of them aim a stream at the agitator skirt with the spinning lower fins splattering the water at the clothes.  A good design I've seen has a shower spray with multiple streams aimed across the load at several angles.


Post# 1151333 , Reply# 4   6/16/2022 at 11:56 (666 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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It would be interesting for someone to do an experiment. I know several years back someone tested a Whirlpool resource save washer and the water was basically clear when put on a deep rinse afterwards. Though, as you say the design of the fill flume and water diversion plays a role in that.




Post# 1151336 , Reply# 5   6/16/2022 at 12:45 (666 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

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"How effective are spray rinses at removing detergent when compared to a deep rinse?"

It depends on how they're carried out. Water volume vs time deployed vs spray pattern. Water temperature also has an effect. A short spray rinse with little water volume will not be as effective compared to a long spray rinse (continuous or broken up in increments) with decent water volume. A wide spray pattern will cover more area and be more effective than a narrow pattern.

"Would one long 90 second spray rinse be as effective as 3 short 30 second sprays spread apart over a 5 minute spin cycle?"

If using the same machine, same water temps/volume/time deployed, and the machine is not sudslocking or waterlogging with either setup from start to finish, the results should be identical.

"I am also think, what if Maytag center dial washers used 2 60 second sprays instead of one 60 second spray with a followed by a deep rinse? Would this have ever been practical?"

I'd say more than 90% of the time, the rinse water is clear in all of my large capacity, 1 minute spray rinse machines. The only time it isn't is when I'm washing something crazy dirty that requires the use of a pre wash cycle on my 806's. Using this cycle, you add soap twice but after the pre wash cycle there's no spray rinse or deep rinse between it and the main wash cycles so residual soap is carried over to the main wash where more soap is then added. Under these circumstances, I use to let the machine spray/spin rinse for 1 minute, spin the dial around and repeat. Since I added a switch to control juice to the timer motor, I just flip it for another minute or however long I desire.

I will say that a good long spray rinse is just as effective and much more efficient than no spray rinse and 2 deep rinses. Mainly because during the spin spray rinse, the water is forcing detergent through the clothes and out of the inner tub where it's carried away from the load where recontamination doesn't occur. With a deep rinse, soap and contaminates can redeposit. Some DD Whirlpool/Kenmore washers (like Bob Appnut had) lacked a spray rinse which forced users, especially those with skin allergies, to use a 2nd rinse. That's 44 gallons of water just for rinsing when the machine is loaded at its full capacity. If they incorporated a 1 minute spray rinse (DD's could handle a long spray rinse during the spin cycle unlike the BD machines), most loads would not have require a 2nd deep rinse and MANY gallons of water would have been saved.


Post# 1151351 , Reply# 6   6/16/2022 at 15:40 (666 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Great info!

Kenmore did have a thing where the Ultra Clean cycle lacked a spray rinse between the wash and first rinse, but had one on the PP press cycle. I never figured out if this was due to energy saving reasons or simply to differentiate Ultra Clean from PP cycles that did not have a typical cool down.


Regarding long vs short sprays my theory is that when fabrics are sprayed they eventually reach a saturation point where more water is being sprayed on the fabric than can be absorbed and passed through to the outer tub. By cycling the spray, it lets extra water spin out of the fabric, thus most of the water can be absorbed at the start of the next spray.

Its a theory I have, but not sure how relevant or to what degree it holds true.


Post# 1151377 , Reply# 7   6/16/2022 at 17:26 (666 days old) by kenwashesmonday (Carlstadt, NJ)        

On a traditional U.S. top load automaitc washer, the spray rinse gets rid of a large percentage of the suds which makes the deep rinse water that much more pure.   In that way, they work together.  This saves water because you'll rarely ever need a 2nd deep rinse.


Post# 1151410 , Reply# 8   6/17/2022 at 04:06 (665 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Whirlpool Spray Rinses

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Does anyone know why Whirlpool consistently placed their spray rinses after the final rinse?


I always assumed that it was in the event a customer added to much detergent to the machine to the point suds were present after the final rinse so as to reduce potential complaints, even though IMO sprays would have been much more effective after the wash. (I think of it like hydrogenated oils of the 90s- while they were formulated to solidify at low temperatures so customers would not find the food greasy and therefore unhealthy, when they were actually much worse than what they were hiding)

But then again I tend to re-think that, because even in the 80s there were WP washers that only sprayed after the deep rinse despite lax water usage regulations. So maybe sprays actually work best better after the deep rinse and none after the main wash?

I've always wanted to ask Whirlpool engineers about this. Everything I know tells me sprays are best after the wash.


Post# 1151414 , Reply# 9   6/17/2022 at 05:20 (665 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
I have a 20 yr old Whirlpool DD top loader

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I find it annoying that it sprays after the main deep rinse and my work around is pressing extra rinse when its finished spinning so it then doesn't flush the conditioner out the fabrics.

Post# 1151418 , Reply# 10   6/17/2022 at 07:11 (665 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Anyone know why?

chetlaham's profile picture
Why do DDs always spray in the last spin?


I've also thought about softner getting rinsed off.


Post# 1151421 , Reply# 11   6/17/2022 at 08:26 (665 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Belt drives did post rinse spray rinses since their beginning or at least in 1955. Our 1963 Norge!% did a post rinse spray (one). kI personally thought solid tub washers with overflow rinses pretty much made fabric softeners mute. One reasson why I didn't like solid tubs with overflow rinses.

Post# 1151423 , Reply# 12   6/17/2022 at 09:03 (665 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Whirlpool touted Seven Rinses in early belt-drive advertising, which was counted via four sprays in the first spin, agitated deep rinse, two sprays in the final spin.  Gentle/Modern fabrics cycle had no sprays in the final spin, acknowledged in some advertising as five rinses vs. the Normal cycle's seven.  Perm Press/W-n-W also (usually? always?) had no sprays in the final spin but it had the additional dilution from the cool down.  The original belt-drive design with the water inlet stream aimed at the rim of the basket, spewing forward to hit the rim of the tub ring and shower down on the load made for an effective distribution pattern.  A revision (via change to a plastic tub ring?) resulted in essentially a stream aimed down from the flume.

Our 1962 WP chronically suds-locked with high-sudsing Tide and other products of the time.  The 1976 WP that replaced it never suds-locked.

I vaguely recall reading mention somewhere of four sprays in the final spin, maybe a Kenmore difference at some point?


Post# 1151430 , Reply# 13   6/17/2022 at 09:38 (665 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        
Spray after deep rinse

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I think I read somewhere that FS cannot be removed from fabrics by rinsing alone you need to rewash items to remove it.

Has something to do with the electric charge of the surfactants.
Clothes are negatively charged after washing from the anionic surfactants in the detergent, then the cationic positively charged surfactants in the FS will bond to the negatively charged clothes.

I think it was in a Henkel FAQ site what to do if Goretex or something else that shouldn`t be treated with FS but accidentally has been.

I could imagine that Whirlpool is aware that FS cannot be removed completely by rinsing so the rationale might be that a spray rinse after the deep rinse would at least help to bring down an excess of FS if someone overdosed.
Might improve absorbency of clothes while still giving good softening as you cannot break the bond of FS to the clothes by rinsing completely.


Post# 1151573 , Reply# 14   6/18/2022 at 11:31 (664 days old) by Mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)        

This is a good discussion. I totally agree with much of the viewpoints. The flume and direction of the water hitting the clothes would, in my mind, be essential. The WP/KM belt drives of yesteryear was the absolute best for spray rinsing, better than a waterfall type. That old system was evenly distributed, from top of the tub to the bottom. (Glenn, I couldn’t agree more with your comments.) Was there a name for that spray flume on the old WP / KM models?
Also the comment on the solid tub overflow rinses is spot on. My mother would use FS in her SQ in the 60’s and there wasn’t much of a scent left at the end of the cycle. FS like StaPuf you could just forget about it.
My SQ432 sprays at an angle and I think that helps as well. I often often set the dial on heavy duty to fill with hot water then turn it to eco and let it wash and spray rinse and afterwards reset to a deep rinse, esp on towels and heavy loads.
One thing that was briefly touched on is detergent choice. I like a lower sudsing detergent. Cuts the water usage on the rinse cycles. I do have skin allergies, and make sure all soap is out.
Just my 2 cents.

Barry


Post# 1151629 , Reply# 15   6/19/2022 at 00:07 (663 days old) by kenwashesmonday (Carlstadt, NJ)        

Having a spray rinse in the final spin goes hand in hand with having a neutral drain.


Post# 1151643 , Reply# 16   6/19/2022 at 06:28 (663 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Hand in Hand

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Can you explain? I would like to know more :)

Post# 1151651 , Reply# 17   6/19/2022 at 08:14 (663 days old) by kenwashesmonday (Carlstadt, NJ)        

With a neutral drain, if any floating bit of leftover suds remains it gets dropped on the clothes when the tub drains.  A spray rinse during the final spin will dissipate it.


Post# 1151653 , Reply# 18   6/19/2022 at 08:38 (663 days old) by Chetlaham (United States)        

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That would make a lot of sense now that I think about it.

Yet another reason showing not to use a neutral drain in washers.


Post# 1151657 , Reply# 19   6/19/2022 at 09:27 (663 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Hmmm.  Wondering why did Norge eventually add a mechanism to do a neutral drain to the point of pressure switch reset instead of staying with a full-duration spin drain?


Post# 1151661 , Reply# 20   6/19/2022 at 09:58 (663 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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My money is on ultimate cost cutting. Neutral drain allows for more economically designed clutches and drive trains.


FWIW in the early 2000s a Maytag home center service tech told me that Whirlpool went to neutral draining because the clutches were wearing out to fast.


Post# 1151669 , Reply# 21   6/19/2022 at 10:40 (663 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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My grandmother had a spin-drain DD from 1984 to 1999, which I also used from approx 1986 to 1991 while living in an apartment.  Never had a problem with the spin clutch.  No repairs of any kind on that machine for the duration.  It was sold when I passed my KA pair to her upon getting my first F&P set.


Post# 1151683 , Reply# 22   6/19/2022 at 13:07 (663 days old) by Chetlaham (United States)        

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Lucky grandmother, she was treated right IMO.

Post# 1151694 , Reply# 23   6/19/2022 at 15:59 (663 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        

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Spray rinsing is effective on the clothes that the water stream reaches.

When using my Ninja 3200 RPM spin drier I use a kitchen sink style spray hose to flush them from a 3" hole I carefully put in the middle of the lid.

Once I did a minor experiment. I was spinning out some warm washed laundry. I was spraying them with cold water. The water could only hit the top item. When I reached in to take the stuff out the top item was cold, but the lower items were still warm.

It's a safe estimate that as soon as water hits a laundry item the water is flung horizontally through the tub holes.


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Post# 1151704 , Reply# 24   6/19/2022 at 17:17 (663 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Probably among the most effective spray methods is F&P's Aqua Rinse.  Multi-shower spray flume, 25 RPM rotation, saturate the load, spin-up to extract, repeat multiple times.


Post# 1151756 , Reply# 25   6/19/2022 at 18:34 (663 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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F&P spray rinsing system was a marvel.










Post# 1151760 , Reply# 26   6/19/2022 at 19:04 (663 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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The first video is the normal sprays when an agitated rinse is also done.  Sprays are at 300 RPM.

Second video is the Eco shower option without an agitated rinse.  Saturation sprays are at 25 RPM.

That's the original spray flume.  AquaSmart HE/impeller models brought in a revised flume that sprays more toward the left onto the clothes pancake and a stream aimed above at the surface of the basket.  The revised flume was sequed onto agitator models after AquaSmart.

Some agitator models have set-up options to adjust the volume of water for the shower rinse (normal, less, least), and the software may slightly vary the number and duration of sprays according to the load size.


Post# 1151794 , Reply# 27   6/20/2022 at 10:56 (662 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
fabric softener

I always use fabric softener, so a deep rinse is a must for me. I hate suds in my clothes when completed. It doesn't matter if I use according to directions. I want all the detergent rinsed out.

Post# 1151859 , Reply# 28   6/20/2022 at 23:22 (661 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        
#27

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same. I only use about a teaspoons worth of Downy April Fresh on everything but towels.

I can still picture the first time I remember smelling Downy when I was like 4 or 5 in our basement laundry room. It was in the original bottle that didn't have the drip-free cap.
I also smelled all-temperature Cheer in a big box, bleach, amonia, and a glass bottle of Top Job for the first time that day as those were all the things near the laundry sink that I was getting into.  lol


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