Thread Number: 91339
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Why do all newer transmission made Speed Queens low speed spin drain after main wash? |
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Post# 1158510   9/2/2022 at 14:04 (693 days old) by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)   |   | |
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I’ve been wondering this for a long time, the old 90s models never did this they always used high speed drain unless it had a delicate setting, and all these new ones do a low speed drain until the final drain and spin which is high speed. Why is that? It takes forever to get going on low speed, let alone get all the water extracted? Wouldn’t it make much more sense to clear the tub as fast as possible while extracting the fabrics as much as possible before the rinse cycle? Makes zero sense at all, was this just for another ridiculous energy regulation maybe? It’s just not logical at all, especially when it does it on every single cycle. Low speed does not assist with heavy large loads which is mostly what people are using these machines for.
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Post# 1158511 , Reply# 1   9/2/2022 at 14:06 (693 days old) by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)   |   | |
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And for another thing I left put, you can’t even let the machine fill without having the lid shut. Is speed Queen worried about someone’s hand or arm getting chopped off by a water stream? They seem extremely paranoid suddenly. Glad it’s an easy switch to bypass, but what the heck? These two strange behaviors don’t add up.
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Post# 1158512 , Reply# 2   9/2/2022 at 14:37 (693 days old) by Mrsalvo ![]() |
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I heard it spins slower so as not to set wrinkles in on Permanent Press fabrics. Frustrating on a load of towels or jeans. At least there’s a short spin rinse that helps. Barry |
Post# 1158513 , Reply# 3   9/2/2022 at 14:43 (693 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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Post# 1158522 , Reply# 4   9/2/2022 at 16:53 (693 days old) by Brisnat81 ![]() |
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The less water extracted, the less water needs to be added to the rinse, which doesn’t help rinsing performance, but does reduce water consumption. |
Post# 1158528 , Reply# 5   9/2/2022 at 19:44 (693 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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I think that's stupid. We are not washing permanent press, which would make more sense. If it's on heavy duty, it should spin at fast speed through and through both after main wash and during final spin. |
Post# 1158558 , Reply# 6   9/3/2022 at 05:02 (693 days old) by mrboilwash ![]() |
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That`s certainly not a first time stupid thing.
Remember their grey water rinse? Wash water only drained partially then was topped up with fresh water and FS then followed by a spray rinse. You`d think everybody in the appliance and detergent industry is a aware of the fact that detergent and FS don`t mix well. Well, apparently everyone but the genius engineers at Speed Queen. |
Post# 1158561 , Reply# 8   9/3/2022 at 08:18 (692 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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They should've had heavy duty and permanent press separate from each other. It would've made more sence for permanent press and delicate to be combined. |
Post# 1158564 , Reply# 9   9/3/2022 at 10:04 (692 days old) by ryner1988 ![]() |
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Angus, I had the opportunity to purchase a used AWN432 washer a couple months ago when my old machine died, and the issues you describe are a major reason I hesitated and ended up going with a whirlpool direct drive instead. I'd heard about the frustratingly low fill level on extra large, and I almost always wash full loads. The AWN and the DD I purchased both have 3.2 cubic feet capacity, but the DD fills all the way so I figured I would not have to decrease my load size to match but I thought I might have to do this with the 2017 SQ. I know there's a way to fix this with a screw in the back of the machine, I just didn't want to risk messing something up.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe the deep wash on the TC5 actually does fill all the way up to the top. I would probably own that machine if it wasn't so expensive. |
Post# 1158566 , Reply# 10   9/3/2022 at 10:34 (692 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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Post# 1158764 , Reply# 12   9/5/2022 at 17:09 (690 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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It makes me angry why anybody would use low speed spin on the heavy duty cycle. What was Speed Queen thinking? Do they think we're stupid? I wish there was a way I could disable the low speed spin on heavy duty so it will extract all the wash water out! |
Post# 1158770 , Reply# 13   9/5/2022 at 18:23 (690 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains )   |   | |
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![]() That's odd you bringing it up about somebody getting there arm ripped off by a washer, I have a friend who had that very thing happen to him.I don't know what he was thinking he tried to slow it down spinning and a wet towel wrapped around his arm and ripped it off at the shoulder. It ripped off his arm so fast he didn't realize what happened until it was to late. They could not reattach it this was in the 80s. That's the strange thing though,I did not feel much pain at all either until I woke up from surgery and my leg was gone.Worse pain in my life ,baseball bat to the shin is what it felt like. |
Post# 1158822 , Reply# 14   9/5/2022 at 22:09 (690 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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I agree in full!
I've come to the conclusion most users assume PP is a cycle that offers a less intensive wash action for casual items. And not 10 minutes of normal agitation. So if anything, PP belongs on the delicate cycle. GE in the mid 2000s got it right IMO. They dropped the words "Permanent Press" from the control panel and changed the cycle name to "casuals". Casuals either had low speed agitation or intermittent agitation followed by normal high speed spins. The tech tech sheets still calls this cycle "permanent press" but it does not have any of the typical characteristics found in a permanent press cycle. One speed models also call the delicate cycle "colors" while two speed models call this cycle "gentle" or delicate" GE cycles have always made more sense, and I've always been under the opinion that all other washers manufacturers should have taken this approach. |
Post# 1158856 , Reply# 15   9/6/2022 at 06:42 (689 days old) by combo52 ![]() |
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![]() This is done to reduce wrinkling if clothing was washed in hot or warm water and to reduce foam from backing up out of the drain standpipe in some homes.
This really does not make any real performance difference, you are only talking about leaving about one cup more water in a load going into the rinse cycle.
The machine is still spinning faster than a WP belt drive ever spun in this first spin.
It is funny the things us washer guys worry about but we have never had any complainant about this from a customer and in fact one of the comments I get about the TC-5s from customers is how well rinsed the clothes seem.
All that said and even though I have been involved in the sale and servicing of well over a thousand of these washers I would not have one in my home or ANY NEW TL Washer built today.
If I can't have a vintage TL washer with a Suds-Saver A modern FL machine just does so much better job.
John L. |
Post# 1158871 , Reply# 16   9/6/2022 at 10:15 (689 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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Older speed queens always did high speed spin during heavy duty. They should've combined normal and heavy duty together. I believe it was the 2014 and older ones that always spun at high speeds. I've NEVER had any foam back out of my standpipe. |
Post# 1158876 , Reply# 17   9/6/2022 at 10:44 (689 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac ![]() |
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Is that today’s machines would have built in sud savers Just like the older machines used to, and it’s not like everybody’s laundry sink is used for something these days, in my household it’s only used as basically a shelf to put the detergent in, and plus wouldn’t a machine with sad saver save the same amount of water as what a nonsense saving machine use?
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Post# 1158919 , Reply# 18   9/6/2022 at 18:38 (689 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)   |   | |
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My bet is on the suds and foam issue at the standpipe that seems to be fairly common in these machines. If it were purely for water efficiency, I doubt they would use it on the Heavy Duty cycle as well. Could be wrong though. |
Post# 1158922 , Reply# 19   9/6/2022 at 18:50 (689 days old) by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)   |   | |
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We have all brand new commercial non coin operated SQ machines at my work, and the low speed spin drives me absolutely nuts. You cannot force these machines to do any high speed spin on both spins, only the final spin and extra rinse spin will be at high speed no matter the cycle. Also, these are the same machines that have no water level selector. But exactly do they think we’re stupid and won’t notice? Most consumers will not notice because most of them have absolutely no clue how a washer even works. But us on the other hand, we cannot be fooled! What drives me the most crazy however is how they enabled the water from running when the lid is open, what is it gonna do chop a dang hand off? Like what the absolute heck were they thinking with that one? It’s just plain stupid. I believe these are base models of the commercial line we have, but im not sure if they even make these same machines with the level selector. Im just glad they are speed queens and not something else….
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Post# 1159224 , Reply# 20   9/10/2022 at 15:14 (685 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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I would force these machines to use high speed spin at all times during normal eco and heavy duty cycles. I am so sick and tired of the low speed spin. It drives me insane! |
Post# 1159231 , Reply# 21   9/10/2022 at 17:11 (685 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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I can buy the overflowing standpipe theory for the slower spin as there were many, many complaints about that problem. I don't buy the wrinkling clothes theory.
Not sure why Speed Queen didn't shift the motor to a faster speed once most of the water was out of the tub ala Frigidaire Multimatic and Rollermatic style. |
Post# 1159233 , Reply# 22   9/10/2022 at 17:25 (685 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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When techs and Speed Queen reps say over flowing, is it water or suds coming out? I know on my Queen that when I use high suds detergent a bit of foam will come out of the pipe once the pump starts drawing air.
I did see a few renatal properties that had Speed Queens in the coin-op laundry rooms where the sheetrock around hookup was badly water stained... A few times I even saw suds in real time coming down the wall. |
Post# 1159243 , Reply# 23   9/10/2022 at 19:24 (685 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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the low speed spin during heavy duty is stupid. If it truly does prevent wrinkling, they should've sprayed water as soon as the draining is about to finish. They should've left it on high spin. |
Post# 1159248 , Reply# 24   9/10/2022 at 20:02 (685 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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I agree. My honest opinion: Permanent Press isn't a concept that is not of actually need. I think customers are looking for Fast/Fast, Slow/Fast, and Slow/Slow.
Right now I'm washing just a few items plus a pair of not very soiled jeans in my Queen and being honest I wish I could have a 10 minutes slow/fast wash vs the high speed agitation. Actually, IMO 15 minutes of low speed agitation provides better results than 10 minutes of high speed agitation for normally soiled items. |
Post# 1159286 , Reply# 25   9/11/2022 at 07:32 (684 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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As someone who experienced suds & water backing up out of the standpipe with his 542–this is back when I was in the house—I was not surprised or disappointed that the first spin on my 2017 9-Series is slow. The plumbing in this 8-plex would have no problem handling a fast pump-out & spin, but I’m with John on this one: It really doesn’t affect the machine’s rinsing performance, which is nothing to write home about under the best of circumstances.
Aside: After a little over 5 years of 5-7 loads per week, the machine finally experienced a cabinet-banging unbalanced load on Friday. Once a month or so, I add the very heavy mattress pad to the load of queen-sized sheets and 7 pillowcases. Surprised it hasn’t occurred before now, to be honest. My laundry pair are housed just a few steps outside my apartment in a utility room/pass-through to the back of the building and garage. I was reading the paper over a cup of coffee when I heard THUD. THUD. THUD. THUD. After about a dozen thuds, I was getting a bit annoyed at whomever in the building was causing the racket. Then it dawned on me: That’s the Speed Queen! LOL The better part of both sheets had gotten trapped in the deep pockets of the mattress pad, so the severity of the unbalance was understandable. The washer is on a vinyl-over wood floor and didn’t move a bit during the thudding. I was impressed! OK, that’s minutiae, I know, but figured this is the place to mention it. A great Sunday to everyone in the AW family! |
Post# 1159630 , Reply# 27   9/16/2022 at 03:41 (680 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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Post# 1159631 , Reply# 28   9/16/2022 at 03:53 (680 days old) by biggpete ![]() |
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Yes, I know they weigh 298lbs. I was just being facetious. However, 27 extra pounds is really not that much more for an, old school washer from 200 years ago. |
Post# 1159681 , Reply# 29   9/17/2022 at 00:25 (679 days old) by biggpete ![]() |
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I mean 198 not 298lbs. That would be more like my Speed Queen FF7 washer alone which comes in at 270lbs |
Post# 1159718 , Reply# 32   9/17/2022 at 12:41 (678 days old) by ryner1988 ![]() |
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How do you have such good luck with powdered detergent? I found it left dusty-feeling stuff at the bottom of my wash tub, as well as stiffer feeling clothes. Then again, I was using Arm and Hammer, maybe that had something to do with it. I have some Ariel powdered detergent stored but haven't used it yet, am currently using Tide liquid with oxi. But powder is easier for me as a blind person, the scoop is way easier to deal with than the liquid cap as it makes less of a mess for me, so if powder in a different brand than I was using works, that would be great.
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Post# 1159722 , Reply# 33   9/17/2022 at 13:15 (678 days old) by DADoES ![]() |
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![]() I plan to buy a new vehicle before they force electric cars on us. I would feel different if it would just convert to gasoline only after the battery was depleted. My experience with rechargeable battery stuff has not been good.There was step-up choice when I bought my hybrid in 2014 for a power system with more electric range capacity and plug-in recharge (vs. generator recharge via engine operation). The step-up also had a gasoline engine but doesn't need to run it as much. The owner manual covers both models and details that the control system would monitor the gasoline supply and may after a timeframe of months run the engine when it otherwise wasn't necessary to avoid the supply going stale. I somewhat regret now that I didn't opt for the upgrade. I've had no trouble thus far with the high-voltage battery pack (the original 12v battery also hasn't yet been replaced). |
Post# 1159737 , Reply# 34   9/17/2022 at 16:58 (678 days old) by combo52 ![]() |
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Post# 1159738 , Reply# 35   9/17/2022 at 17:21 (678 days old) by ryner1988 ![]() |
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Post# 1159751 , Reply# 36   9/17/2022 at 20:58 (678 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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I use the hygienic clean pods from tide and I have no issues. |
Post# 1159808 , Reply# 38   9/18/2022 at 10:11 (677 days old) by combo52 ![]() |
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Post# 1160102 , Reply# 39   9/21/2022 at 22:17 (674 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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I always place laundry pods in the machine before clothes to all the agitator to stir them. |
Post# 1183645 , Reply# 41   6/28/2023 at 14:41 (394 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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I prefer fast/fast for sturdy items of various soil types, and I don't buy the foaming standpipe nonsense. I have NEVER had this issue before. The last time I used a Speed Queen that had high speed spin through and through during the normal cycle was in 2008. |
Post# 1183653 , Reply# 42   6/28/2023 at 15:41 (394 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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Post# 1183672 , Reply# 43   6/28/2023 at 19:16 (394 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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Post# 1183838 , Reply# 45   6/30/2023 at 17:58 (392 days old) by DADoES ![]() |
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![]() Jerome, other people have experiences different than yours. Whirlpool direct-drive washers drain at a faster rate than old-style belt-drives. There were instances of delivering a new direct-drive as replacement for a belt-drive, the standpipe overflowed during drain on the test run. Maybe from clogging, maybe from a restriction due to the size of the plumbing. It wasn't our problem to figure that out. I learned after the first incident to listen for water gurgling up in the standpipe for a potential overflow and stop it before a flood occurred. A workaround to finish the installation test was switch to slow spin to get the water drained. We advised the customer accordingly to call a plumber or whatever was required on their part to solve the problem. There were a couple instances of delivery to a garage or out-building installation with the customer not home so we left a written note. |
Post# 1183954 , Reply# 48   7/1/2023 at 22:51 (391 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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Post# 1184043 , Reply# 49   7/3/2023 at 09:00 (389 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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Speed Queen should've done what GE did. What they could've done is do a neutral drain, then start on slow for a minute, then shift to high speed spin. My previous GE did that. It was the post filter-flo. |
Post# 1184315 , Reply# 50   7/7/2023 at 07:26 (385 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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![]() Very bad idea. The water washes up and away during spin drain preventing crud, scum and lint from redepositing around the outer tub, inner tub and agitator. Every washer that I've used with neutral drain develops scum rings around the agi and washtub. Things being left behind on fabric was more prevalent. Clothes also end up being clumped at the bottom wrinkled instead of being spread out across the wash-basket wall at the end of the cycle. You need a reasonably fast spin during draining which accelerates relative to the amount of water still being pumped out.
The pump out rate itself would have to be reduced, which is what a low speed spin is trying to accomplish. This is wear switching to high should come into play after the low speed spin-drain. |
Post# 1184316 , Reply# 51   7/7/2023 at 07:56 (385 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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Speed Queen washers do have powerful motors. I ran one of them with bleach and hot water and the machine had very strong turbulence. The pump was also powerful especially on high speed spin. |
Post# 1184326 , Reply# 52   7/7/2023 at 10:50 (385 days old) by combo52 ![]() |
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Neutral drain machines don’t get any dirtier than spin drain machines and the clothing gets cleaner.
But worst offenders for scum and sludge, buildup or Ge Filter Flow‘s Maytag later LAT models, etc. Every top loading washer in the world that has the capability of a neutral drain uses it, because engineers know it works better. And I’m sure you know that Speed Queen sells their traditional transmission washers with an electric drain pump in countries where people don’t use clothes dryers much because of the problem with lint and grit being re-deposited by the spin drain. Facts are facts. It’s time to get your emotions out of engineering. John. |
Post# 1184335 , Reply# 53   7/7/2023 at 12:15 (385 days old) by kenwashesmonday ![]() |
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How would a neutral drain machine get the clothes cleaner? |
Post# 1184336 , Reply# 54   7/7/2023 at 12:36 (385 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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![]() Speed Queen motors are rated 1/2HP, and have a centrifugal controlled start winding with a capacitor in series which provides a fast, powerful "kick" upon start up. Pump out rate is excellent, I even removed the molded reducing orifice at the end of drain hose when I installed my Speed Queen washer in late 2013.
I think all top load washers should have at least a 1/2 HP drain pump, and ideally a 3/4 HP drive motor- minimum. A separate drain pump is a reliability issue in part due to their lack of torque. My top load 1997 GE washers had the 180 watt Italian pump, and I remember after two years the pump started to do this thing where it would slow down during drain. You could hear it. (I'm guessing threads wrapped around the impeller shaft did this based on pumps I took out at an apartment scrap pile.) The tub would start to spin while still full of water, the pressure switch would trip, re-start spin, over and over. You think that with the presence of a clutch on the motor shaft there wouldn't be a need to run the spin circuit through the pressure switch, but apparently if you hold the water level knob interim keeping the switch in fill mode the spin would cause water to come out the over-flow pipe. Funny that did not happen with the filter flos... Put a shield above the motor, ditch the overflow pipe, bring down the water/suds drag honey combs on the inner tub, attach the drain pump directly to the drive motor, beef up the clutch a bit, Goodyear belt and then maybe the Model Ts would resemble an attempt at a clothes washer.
The Models had one redeeming quality (if I can allow myself to say such a thing) in that if you turned off the drain pump while in spin the machine was very quiet. A pump attached to the main motor would have preserved most of that tranquility. But the drain pump was so noisy gargling while vibrating the base pan it undid everything making the washer the loudest appliance in the house. |
Post# 1184344 , Reply# 55   7/7/2023 at 14:13 (385 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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And maybe they should just beef up the agitation like on previous models. What do you think? |
Post# 1184353 , Reply# 56   7/7/2023 at 16:15 (385 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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![]() Bigger transmission, long stroke agitation. A third port on the pump going back up via hose to a flume in the tub cover.
The one major draw back regarding the filter flos was the amount of water between the inner and outer tubs. In theory the could have combined the two into one suspended unit, then hung it from 4 rods like the model Ts. Porcelain on steel outer tub, stainless steal or porcelain speckled inner tub.
I still don't like the hanging concept all that much, perhaps a milk stool suspension like Speed Queen. Or a 4 point corner design I once theorized. The Filter Flo could have been re-designed into a real washer. Though the original design would always have a charm of its own. |
Post# 1184371 , Reply# 57   7/7/2023 at 20:52 (385 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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I remember the GE filter-flo agitated at 100 strokes per minute while the later models agitated at 154 strokes per minute. This was at normal speed. What are your thoughts? |
Post# 1184405 , Reply# 58   7/8/2023 at 06:26 (384 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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Post# 1196433 , Reply# 59   1/2/2024 at 08:22 (206 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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What sounds would've you have liked to have heard instead of that shrieking double knock? |
Post# 1196600 , Reply# 60   1/6/2024 at 15:52 (202 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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Post# 1196620 , Reply# 61   1/6/2024 at 20:37 (202 days old) by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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I agree fully. As for the pump running during wash, I'd like to hear that sound as air rushes through, or better yet when both air and water rush through. |
Post# 1196623 , Reply# 62   1/6/2024 at 20:50 (202 days old) by chetlaham ![]() |
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Post# 1209761 , Reply# 65   7/19/2024 at 12:47 by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)   |   | |
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Post# 1209763 , Reply# 66   7/19/2024 at 13:18 by kalanikaau1 ![]() |
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According to the timer chart on my 2018 LWN432SP115TW01, when the reg/perm-press cycle is selected, the spin and spray event happens about 2/3rd. of the total time of the initial main wash spin event.
This spin event, according to the chart lasts just 6 minutes and the motor is run at slow speed, I'm sure SQ had their reasons for spinning the tub at a reduced speed. However, if the extra rinse option is selected, the tub is spun at a higher speed to extract the rinse water. With this setup it seems as though the extra rinse option must be selected for maximum rinse water extraction...strange |
Post# 1209765 , Reply# 67   7/19/2024 at 13:25 by chetlaham ![]() |
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Post# 1209866 , Reply# 68   7/20/2024 at 14:26 by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)   |   | |
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Post# 1209869 , Reply# 69   7/20/2024 at 14:34 by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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What the heck were they thinking with that idea anyway? |
Post# 1209871 , Reply# 70   7/20/2024 at 14:47 by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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When I mean early spray rinse, I mean when the tub hasn't been completely empty yet. What the heck? My clothes do get clean nonetheless, but still! |
Post# 1209876 , Reply# 71   7/20/2024 at 15:36 by Combo52 ![]() |
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Of all the tens of thousands of Speed Queen top load washers we’ve worked on no customer has ever complained that it has a low speed first spin or have has any customer ever complained about the spray rinse pattern of any top load washer I’ve ever worked on of any brand.
There are many different ways to do things, and I know it’s interesting but it’s not a real problem that’s worth very much of your time and worry. John |
Post# 1209886 , Reply# 72   7/20/2024 at 16:16 by chetlaham ![]() |
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This post has been removed by the member who posted it. |
Post# 1209889 , Reply# 73   7/20/2024 at 16:24 by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)   |   | |
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I agree that the volume of the discussion is a little ridiculous but that’s what this forum is for after all, appliance talk. I just wanted insight to see why in the world they suddenly changed the first spin to a low speed after decades of using high speed spins, and I wasn’t the only one who has that question. I totally agree Chetleham. Never thought this thread would of got the amount of replies it did but this is what keeps us all talking and most importantly, learning. No matter how much experience one has there’s always room to learn.
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Post# 1209899 , Reply# 74   7/20/2024 at 17:24 by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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"Of all the tens of thousands of Speed Queen top load washers we’ve worked on no customer has ever complained that it has a low speed first spin or have has any customer ever complained about the spray rinse pattern of any top load washer I’ve ever worked on of any brand."
How many of those customers bypassed the lid and watched the entire cycle? Probably none. How many have the experience to recognize what a good spray or deep rinse actually is? Probably little to none unless they have detergent allergies. The spray pattern on the 2018+ SQ's that spin/spray on low aims at the bottom of the tub which is bullshit, useless, and a waste of water. They should have changed the fill flume to a fan spray...like some other manufacture did 68 years ago. CLICK HERE TO GO TO qsd-dan's LINK |
Post# 1209910 , Reply# 75   7/20/2024 at 19:42 by DADoES ![]() |
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Post# 1209911 , Reply# 76   7/20/2024 at 19:51 by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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Post# 1209920 , Reply# 77   7/20/2024 at 23:29 by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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What the heck were they thinking? I've never opened the lid to check, but I stood there and listened to the machine doing a normal cycle. When the machine went into the first spin, I thought, What the heck?. |
Post# 1209945 , Reply# 78   7/21/2024 at 10:07 by chetlaham ![]() |
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![]() The original design had the spray rinse listed to trigger in the second increment and the tech sheets reflected that. For some reason, not even published, Speed Queen changed it to the first increment.
(and if everyone is wondering why I deleted my reply its because I wanted to bite my tongue and not get into an argument over John's pointless, disparaging remarks which add nothing of value. But seeing his post received 4 upvotes {check marks} has me questioning if I'm on the right forum to begin with. Its not ridiculous when the water entering the tub is already full of water but what do I perceive maybe I'm just imagining all of it) |
Post# 1209947 , Reply# 79   7/21/2024 at 10:51 by Combo52 ![]() |
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Speed Queen chose to do this to reduce wrinkling since there’s no dedicated permanent press cycle anymore, it also reduces foaming back up out of stand pipes, which was a real problem for Speed Queen because they use a cheap motor driven pump instead of using electric pump and do the draining first like they do on the same unit sold in many other countries.
Spraying water in while there’s still water in the tub acts again as a suds suppressor and cools the fabric slightly, which again helps the extraction process leading into the deep rinse. No system is perfect. All decisions are a compromise in life. Speed Queen is doing the best they can. If you don’t like it don’t buy it if you’re really serious about laundry, you’d buy a front loading washer anyway. John |
Post# 1209954 , Reply# 80   7/21/2024 at 12:26 by chetlaham ![]() |
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![]() The premature spray began at least in the 2009 AWN timer models all of which had a dedicated PP cycle. In some machines it was more pronounced than others since AWN311, AWN412, AWN432 and AWN42 all varying timer increments per second. (I'll post pics)
Spraying 1.25 gallons of water on top of 10 gallons isn't going to do much cooling. Or knock down many suds.
The front load washer you advocate for have no heater making them pointless half the time.
There is compromise, and then there is being just flat out wrong. |
Post# 1209958 , Reply# 81   7/21/2024 at 13:06 by chetlaham ![]() |
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![]() Here are the original cycle diagrams from a 1998 Amana service manual depicting the same Amanas that would become the AWN series in latter years. Except for the addition of the motor start capacitor and the AWN542 being changed out from a 3 speed to a 2 speed motor the cycles, timers, and wiring are all identical.
"B" is the closing of the spray rinse contact. Note position in the cycle schematic.
Future AWN311, 1 minute 30 second timer increments:
Future AWN412, 2 minute timer increments:
Future AWN432, 3 minute timer increments:
Future AWN542, 3 minute timer increments:
If we take a look at the listed cycle timing in the service manual the intent is the same- as to start the spray AFTER the first spin increment is complete.
Future AWN 412:
Future AWN542:
Amanas original intent was spelled out clearly, have the spray rinse begin more than 2 to 3 minutes after the tub started draining by then where all the water would have left the machine.
Alliance Speed Queen decided to shift the spray to the first timer increment covertly behind company doors, and have it start about 1 minute into the first increment which was NEVER the original intent of Amana or Raytheon. This timer engineering was completely unnecessary and counter productive. If everyone was like me, Alliance would be sending customers new timers with the spray starting where intended.
The PP argument is bogus, because while starting the spray at 1 minute works half way on high speed, at low speed the tub is still half full of water. Nothing is accomplished.
This was a workplace mistake, and I am angry LOL.
This post was last edited 07/21/2024 at 13:45 |
Post# 1209964 , Reply# 82   7/21/2024 at 13:35 by chetlaham ![]() |
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![]() I'm not defending this bad idea, but there may be a motive albeit poor execution. A member posted the tech sheet to a Durex Filter Flo from South America. My understanding (and someone can confirm) is that South America had much stronger water restrictions in place than the US. So as such the cool down spray in the permanent press cycle could not run the whole duration like it did in the American Filter Flos where it starts as soon as the pressure switch resets and continues into the rinse fill portion of the cycle uninterpreted.
As such, in Gentle Wash (Permanent Press) the 30 second spray rinse seems to start at about 45-60 seconds after the spin/drain begins. Where as in Normal Wash the 30 second spray starts at about 90 seconds after the spin/drain begins as it does in the American Normal cycle. I'm guessing this was a desperate attempt at a water saving cool down?
Given the Durex is a single speed model and FFs have a high drain out pump that is always driven at high speed the premature spray is less of an insult this Durex washer, however Speed Queen really botched the idea starting way to early by not taking the low speed draining into account especially on their AWN models.
Durex showing one speed drive motor with no speed solenoid:
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Post# 1210034 , Reply# 84   7/21/2024 at 23:40 by chetlaham ![]() |
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Post# 1210052 , Reply# 85   7/22/2024 at 02:40 by kalanikaau1 ![]() |
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I stand corrected on my SQ's spin speed as I stated.
After re-consulting the timer matrix on my machine (LWN432SP115TW01) slow speed spin only occurs after the initial wash event, with spray rinse occurring 2 minutes thereafter. After the initial rinse event has completed, the unit spins @ high speed, even if the extra rinse option is selected. Some have questioned why Alliance Industries lopped the heavy-duty/permanent cycle into one, my guess is that the feds require any cycle named "Normal" must meet their standards for energy and water conservation, hence the rinse function being accomplished my merely injecting water as the machine is spinning after the wash event as the "normal/eco" cycle dictates. I've instructed my family not to use this cycle as some are sensitive to detergent residue. I can understand how and why drain standpipe overflow may be an issue for some, however my washer drains into a laundry tray, making that issue moot for me. |
Post# 1210064 , Reply# 86   7/22/2024 at 11:15 by chetlaham ![]() |
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![]() Can you email me or upload pics of your LWN432SP115TW01 to IMGUR and link here? I'm curious about your machine.
My Speed Queen drains into a wall standpipe, I even cut off the restrictor on the drain hose and the only time I had a bit of foam was when I severely overdosed on sudsy detergent requiring several extra rinses. Other than that I've never had a problem. Foaming is not an issue with correct dosing or even when a over do it moderately. Perhaps people are having plumbing or detergent dosing issues and not washer issues. |
Post# 1210068 , Reply# 87   7/22/2024 at 11:51 by GELaundry4ever ![]() |
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It even does that low speed first and early spray rinse on heavy duty. What the heck? Speed Queen Laundry claimed that the first speed spin on heavy duty is at high. I disagree. |
Post# 1210089 , Reply# 88   7/22/2024 at 14:15 by kalanikaau1 ![]() |
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You are correct, the spin after the main wash is done at low speed when the PP/HD cycle is selected.
It isn't until the final rinse when the spin is done at high speed, whether or not an extra rinse is selected. I fail to understand why an initial low speed spin would be an issue for some, when in the end, the machine will spin at high speed anyway. |
Post# 1210099 , Reply# 89   7/22/2024 at 16:21 by chetlaham ![]() |
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![]() Lower spin speed means less water extraction resulting in more soap residue carry-over into the rinse water causing poorer rinsing results overall. Whirlpool's Resource Saver washer actually defaulted to high speed spin during the spray/rinse/recirculate mode whereas Speed Queen uses a low speed spin even in eco spray rinse.
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Post# 1210115 , Reply# 90   7/22/2024 at 18:09 by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)   |   | |
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Some people wonder why this has changed suddenly after decades of using hi speed first spins. If it wasn’t for the low speed spin, people wouldn’t complain about the spray rinse being too early. With a hi speed first spin, the tub would clear before the spray rinse comes or just about. But the heavier the load the longer it takes for them to reach the highest speed of the first spin cycle which is why it would make more sense to use a HI speed, plus as mentioned above it doesn’t do the best of water extraction leaving more detergent over for the rinse cycle. And another thing, it’s a LONG spin cycle, at least five minutes. Longest spin cycle I’ve ever encountered for a first spin on a old fashioned top loader but that’s just me. Had it been programmed to HI you could knock that five minutes in half, like the older Speed Queens from the 90s and 2000s unless I’m mistaken and they were five minutes as well.
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