"Phil's" (KA KDI-58) temperature problem


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Thread Number: 91885 / Tag: Vintage Dishwashers
"Phil's" (KA KDI-58) temperature problem

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Post# 1164136 11/17/2022 at 18:59 (525 days old) by valvashon (Seattle, U.S.A.)
Checkrate/Likes "Phil" is my now built in KitchenAid KDI-58. In good shape (I think) and painted something resembling Woodtone Brown. Phil has a temperature problem. It's too low. Phil isn't cleaning very well and I'm starting to get push back from the rest of the family. Here are the measured-with-a-heat-gun temperatures inside of Phil during a normal cycle. I did run the faucet of the kitchen sink until the water felt hot, then started the cycle. Inside DW temps taken at bottom front: Water to start: 112� F After first rinse, drained: 87� F Second rinse: 106.5� F Main Wash: 110.5� F Rinse #1: 111.5� F Rinse #2: 112.5� F Water measured at sink nearest to water heater: 124� F Water heater set at: ~140� F Water heater is at one end of house, 40 to 50 feet of un-insulated galvanized pipe to get to the kitchen. At some point that will be addressed, but for now I'm thinking that a tankless water heater under the kitchen sink would be a good idea. Any ideas on what gallon size to effectively provide hotter water to Phil? The BOSCH models will supposedly do 145� F which should improve the cleaning ability of Phil and I'm thinking a 4 gallon one would be about right. Is this a good idea or is there some other way to get hotter water to the dishwasher? Thanks, Val

Post# 1164141 , Reply# 1 11/17/2022 at 20:32 (525 days old) by luxflairguy (Wilmington NC)
Checkrate/Likes 3 Well Val! You are the typical person who doesn't understand that vintage dishwashers aren't made to run at today's lowers temps! The "specs" for that machine are that the inlet water to the machine needs to be 140 degrees! Yes! 140 degree's! Not 120-125 as you state your water is! The water needs to be 140! Is that clear enough? Turn up your water heater and since I lived in Seattle for over 60 years I know how cold it is! 45 right now with a low of 30! So INSULATE those pipes, turn up your hot water heater to frankly HIGH! Trust me it will help! These machines as already explained don't sit for 20 minutes heating water! So PLEASE stop whining that the machine isn't working right when you haven't done the homework to be responsible to have this wonderful dishwasher!

Post# 1164142 , Reply# 2 11/17/2022 at 20:45 (525 days old) by qsd-dan (West)
Checkrate/Likes You need a minimum of 140F at the tap, no other choice but to compensate by turning up the water heater until that's accomplished. Models that came after this (19/59 for the portables) would preheat the water to 150F for the pre wash, main wash, and final rinse. I know some people here complain about the pre heating cycles but there's a very good reason for its implementation. I always recommend 150F at the tap for the 18/58 and older models, otherwise, get a newer model that preheats.

Post# 1164144 , Reply# 3 11/17/2022 at 21:09 (525 days old) by valvashon (Seattle, U.S.A.)
Checkrate/Likes 5 Luxflair and qsd-dan: Did either of you actually read my post? Not sure you did. I'll bullet point it for you: 1) I've set my water heater at 140 or 145. Old house, galvanized plumbing, lots of heat loss in that plumbing even at the nearest sink, not to mention that the dishwasher in question is 40 to 50 feet away. Not sure I could turn up the water heater enough to get 145 water at the dishwasher without everybody getting blisters if they weren't super careful in the shower. 2) Those temperature measurements were taken to show that it is indeed, too cool in the dishwasher. I'm fully aware of that, which is why I'm asking for help in sizing an auxiliary water heater specifically for the kitchen. I thought that somebody else out there somewhere had to also have this problem and I was hoping that they would be on here and could give me some ideas on this. To reiterate, I know the water is too cold. And I know that the water heater is too far from the kitchen to do the job. Val

Post# 1164147 , Reply# 4 11/17/2022 at 21:31 (525 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)
Checkrate/Likes 2 Hi Bruce, your idea about using a 4 gallon electric water heater under the sink or near the dishwasher is a good one set that water heater to 140 and you should get good results. Given your house layout and design it�s not gonna be possible to get that hot water to the dishwasher, insulating the pipes is not a bad idea but it�s not gonna make that much difference. Doing this might even allow you to turn the water heater down in the house closer to 120 which is much safer and more economical anyway. The small water heater near the dishwasher might not have to be left on all the time if you don�t use the dishwasher A lot, just time how long it takes to completely heat the tank to 140 and turn it on 15 or 20 minutes before you start the dishwasher. John L

Post# 1164148 , Reply# 5 11/17/2022 at 22:15 (525 days old) by valvashon (Seattle, U.S.A.)
Checkrate/Likes 1 We've got four people here in the house and do a lot of food preparation so it's at least one load a day, sometimes up to three. I'll probably leave it on all the time as I'll use it to also provide hot water to the sink. Currently it's several minutes before we get hot water. And yes, part of this is to be able to lower the main water heater temperature. With the under sink unit I shouldn't need the main one more than 120� F. Val

Post# 1164149 , Reply# 6 11/17/2022 at 22:23 (525 days old) by appnut (TX)
Checkrate/Likes Val, keep us posted to the progress of installing an under sink water heater.

Post# 1164183 , Reply# 7 11/18/2022 at 06:56 (524 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)
Checkrate/Likes *Dishwasher water temp* Is there a model of KA dishwasher that holds the timer till the temp is reached? That would surely make life a little less expensive?

Post# 1164185 , Reply# 8 11/18/2022 at 07:26 (524 days old) by steved (Guilderland, New York)
Checkrate/Likes 1 *Watts recirculating pump* My dishwasher is 30 feet from the water heater and cleanability suffered until I installed this pump. Now I have hot water the minute I open the tap and my dishwasher always gets everything clean. CLICK HERE TO GO TO steved's LINK View Full Size

Post# 1164196 , Reply# 9 11/18/2022 at 08:44 (524 days old) by qsd-dan (West)
Checkrate/Likes I've had my water heater cranked up to 162F for decades, never burned myself yet. This is an ideal temp for washing whites using oxy bleach in a top loader since the temp cools down to about 153F after the tub is full and the washer is agitating. I fail to understand how people burn themselves with the exception of neuropathy issues. Recirculation pumps work but you're returning hot water to the cold water line which is overall an inefficient setup. You can set the pump to work about 15-20 minutes before using the dishwasher, then turn it off after it's finished washing. I have seen responses of a 20% increase in monthly electric/gas bills although I think that's for those not using a timer. As for a 4 gallon water heater under the sink, you'll have to experiment with that but I sort of doubt it will keep up with this dishwashers fast cycles.

Post# 1164198 , Reply# 10 11/18/2022 at 08:48 (524 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)
Checkrate/Likes 2 You could purge your hot water line before each fill, holding a quick read thermometer in the stream from the faucet until the water temp reads 140F. A better solution is to find a dishwasher with a high temp wash option that holds the timer while the water is heating. You would need a very powerful booster tank (like 220 volt) to heat water to 140 during each of the pre-rinses so that you would have 140F water for the main wash. I would recommend a Whirlpool or the Whirlpool-made Kenmore Ultra Wash. You are not going to get satisfactory results from your KA with less than 140 minimum water. Those old machines were made in a different time. Have you insulated the tub of your machine? It is probably also losing a lot of heat to the cold walls. We always kept our water heater at 160F, even before we got a dishwasher. because we originally had a suds-saver washer. You will notice that there is no heater in the sump of your machine. Even with the heater in my KDS58, it is only on to maintain water temperature during wash and one very cold winter, I think it was 1977-78 when the apartment building turned down the hot water temperature, washing performance suffered because the heater only raises the water temperature about one degree per minute.

Post# 1164221 , Reply# 11 11/18/2022 at 15:35 (524 days old) by steved (Guilderland, New York)
Checkrate/Likes 1 "I have seen responses of a 20% increase in monthly electric/gas bills". Not sure about other areas but the change in our utility bill after installing the pump was barely noticeable. I have the timer set for a couple of hours in the morning, and 4 - 5 hours in the evening. We have utility bills that are equal or less than our most efficient neighbors, and it's been that way for the 9 years we've had the recirculating pump. Not bad for a 60 year old "Medallion Home". And that's considering that NY is in the top 10 highest energy cost states.

Post# 1164315 , Reply# 12 11/19/2022 at 15:02 (523 days old) by Labboy (SD, CA)
Checkrate/Likes 2 *Point of Use Water Heater* I have my KDS-21 in our garage as a second dishwasher for excess dishes from parties, cooking etc. We put in a small point-of-use water heater which works great. Stiebel Eltron SHC 4 Mini-Tank... www.amazon.com/dp/B001OXX... Good luck! Bob

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