Rescued KUDS25 Dishwasher

Hi all,
This post has been a few months overdue, since I purchased a really nice (outwardly) KUDS25 PowerClean based KitchenAid Supurba dishwasher.
However, once it was brought home and fired up, boy did it make a racket. As well as had a limescale coated pump.
So the renovation ensued!
I've got some of the process pics attached, and shamefully didn't photograph everything.

Issues and Remedies;
1. (Photos 2-6); Since the pump was making a racket, and was dirty, I needed to open it up. This was a challenge right away. Since the wash imeller screw would NOT COME OFF! I fought with it a while till the plastic nut features on the top of the impeller cracked away. At that point it needed to be sacrificed. So I drilled a hole through it, and used a screwdriver as a stop block. With that engaged, I was eventually able to get the screw out.
The PowerClean I dealt with on my other KUDC23, was tough too, but this was the absolute worst.
Once I got the impeller out, the rest of the pump could be opened up.
Upon opening things up to the grinder/drain section, the culprits were found. Of course, lots of weird debris, like plastic bits, a screw, and shards of glass.
The drain impeller bore, where the grinder spring engages, was also cracked.
At this point it would need a full rebuild.
MURANDO on the forum was ever so gracious to donate some spare PowerClean pump parts so the rebuild could be done, and the KUDS25 could live another day!!!

2. (Photos 5, 7); While waiting for the pump rebuild parts, I cleaned up the sump, and very rusty shaft.
This took two treatments of soaking paper towels in CLR and laying them with good contact, in the sloped sump area and around the pump shaft. Within a weekend I was able to get it all cleaned up!
The shaft, that was more challenging. I needed to wire wheel Dremel that clean, in order to insert the new drain impeller.
The shaft seal was interesting. There was no evidence of leakage under the tub or on the motor, but there was a very rusty shaft, and a surprising amount of scale behind the seal. So that needed gentle scraping out before a new seal could be put in.

3. (Photos 8); Reassembly went well. The initial fire-up of the machine was nice n smooth, and leak free (from the pump)
Once it was running a bit, there was a noticeable leak coming from the large fill vent on the lower left side.
This one was tricky and took a few weeks to solve. Upon disassembly, the fill vent assembly and gasket were pretty gunked up with scale. I initially tried just cleaning things with CLR to the point it was scale free. The housing and seal. But when it would be reassembled, it would still leak during fill and wash. Even though the ring seal was making a real tight fit, water would still pass by it.
At my wits end, and knowing there's no replacement parts, I went big. I just sealed it up with silicone kitchen sealant that can withstand the temperature.
This too took a couple attempts, but finally worked!
I got a couple weeps from it still, but after several runs the little pores must've sealed up and has been leak free.

4. (Photo 9); The ActiveVent wax motor was busted, so the vent never closed, leading to a pretty noisy wash. Replaced that wax motor with a new one from ebay. Works nicely now, and much quieter.

5. The detergent dispenser was also leaking significantly, through the lid lock shaft. A large pool of water would collect while a cycle ran, and then dump out when I'd open the door.
I did find a replacement OEM detergent dispenser, but it didn't have the Rinse Aid sensor. It was only an issue if the door was opened too far soon after a dry cycle. So I held onto that issue to "monitor for the future."
I'm happy to say, several months later of regular use, the little shaft seal must've been heated and moistened enough where it doesn't seem to be an issue anymore. It could be still weeping a bit, but the cycle heat seems to evaporate it.

6. Overall, the machine is in good condition after the renovations. However, if I'm honest, the older 23 series I have, seems to have held up better over time. From everything like pump parts, racks, wash arms and bearings. Seals etc, the 23 is just aging better.
However, the 25, with this refresh, is holding its own.

7. (Photos 10,11); Now, what's fun is, it has the soil pressure sensor!
What's interesting is, I could not get this to trip and modify the cycles at first. So I conducted some evaluation and experimentation.
I was able to get some aquarium tubing, and a low level pressure gauge.
I confirmed that when the pressure sensor was blown into manually, it would trip and manipulate the cycle.
But the gauge was able to tell me what's going on in a cycle.
Findings: Upon attaching the gauge, and running some cycles, the following was observed.
- When running with clean water, the gauge reads between 2-3in/wc (inches of water column).
- Manual testing with the gague, blowing into it, the trip switch level is aprox. 6in/wc.
- I ran a couple cycles of soiled dishes, and the first two, only reached a max of 3.5in/wc. According to the cycle chart, the "sensing" period is in the first PreWash for about 4-6min. And my sensor readings didn't reach the trip point in that time frame.
- I conducted this test a 3rd time, with lots of gross pans and dishes, after I did some baking. THIS time, I watched the gauge, and it rose to the 6in/wc trip point within just a few mintues, and dumped the tank! Modified the cycle to a "medium" soil load, which adds a thermal hold in the main wash, and the pre-final rinse purge is turned into a full rinse.

It worked! Whats very interesting, monitoring its performance and soil trip points, I've come to the following conclusions:
a) the collection chamber is very large on the PC, and it takes a lot of soil to collect before there's any collection resistance.
b) the types of soils really matter. Obviously, the chunkier, heavier soils will settle out, and not seal the mesh. Loads that have lighter, finer soils, like breading, flour, starches etc, float and seal the filter faster, causing the sensor trips.
This action makes sense! It's those fine, gritty soils that cause that grittiness on surfaces if it's not adequately washed and rinsed away. So if there's a load that has more of that soil, it makes sense the machine will "see" that type of soil, and want to run longer and flush more water through, so that silty stuff has enough opportunity to be flushed away.

Existing Nagging Issue:
There's an existing nagging issue, that I can only suspect is a control board glitch.
It tends to trip the detergent dispenser, randomly, within the first fill or first wash segment. Causing an issue where a double dose could be dumped into the PreWash. Leaving nothing left for the main wash.
It's sometimes gone weeks without doing this, and acting normally. But sometimes creep up again.
So, I've had to get in the habit of just letting it fill, run for several seconds, and then put my detergent pack in the cup, for the rest of the cycle.

Modifications:
The upper arm that came with the machine was a gross yellowish color, like bad teeth or something. So I got another one super cheap. But.....after several weeks, that one became yellowish too! It looked so bad compared to the nice white racks.
So I got a dark gray wash arm from a Voyager platform. Fit right in. The hole pattern is a little different, and it actually spins a little faster with extra drive jets.
But so far no issues with cleaning! Everything up top is squeaky clean!

Epilogue:
Yeah! Pretty happy with it so far. It's quieter and the wash cycles are better than the 23 series with modern detergents. The thermal hold rinse really helps.
Another interesting observation is that I can hear the 1/3 HP motor pitch change more when its under or off load with water, or when drained. The 23's 1/2HP motor never did that.

Photos... < > Photo 1 of 13 View Full Size


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Post# 1171196 2/4/2023 at 13:30 (454 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)
Checkrate/Likes 3 Hi all, This post has been a few months overdue, since I purchased a really nice (outwardly) KUDS25 PowerClean based KitchenAid Supurba dishwasher. However, once it was brought home and fired up, boy did it make a racket. As well as had a limescale coated pump. So the renovation ensued! I've got some of the process pics attached, and shamefully didn't photograph everything. Issues and Remedies; 1. (Photos 2-6); Since the pump was making a racket, and was dirty, I needed to open it up. This was a challenge right away. Since the wash imeller screw would NOT COME OFF! I fought with it a while till the plastic nut features on the top of the impeller cracked away. At that point it needed to be sacrificed. So I drilled a hole through it, and used a screwdriver as a stop block. With that engaged, I was eventually able to get the screw out. The PowerClean I dealt with on my other KUDC23, was tough too, but this was the absolute worst. Once I got the impeller out, the rest of the pump could be opened up. Upon opening things up to the grinder/drain section, the culprits were found. Of course, lots of weird debris, like plastic bits, a screw, and shards of glass. The drain impeller bore, where the grinder spring engages, was also cracked. At this point it would need a full rebuild. MURANDO on the forum was ever so gracious to donate some spare PowerClean pump parts so the rebuild could be done, and the KUDS25 could live another day!!! 2. (Photos 5, 7); While waiting for the pump rebuild parts, I cleaned up the sump, and very rusty shaft. This took two treatments of soaking paper towels in CLR and laying them with good contact, in the sloped sump area and around the pump shaft. Within a weekend I was able to get it all cleaned up! The shaft, that was more challenging. I needed to wire wheel Dremel that clean, in order to insert the new drain impeller. The shaft seal was interesting. There was no evidence of leakage under the tub or on the motor, but there was a very rusty shaft, and a surprising amount of scale behind the seal. So that needed gentle scraping out before a new seal could be put in. 3. (Photos 8); Reassembly went well. The initial fire-up of the machine was nice n smooth, and leak free (from the pump) Once it was running a bit, there was a noticeable leak coming from the large fill vent on the lower left side. This one was tricky and took a few weeks to solve. Upon disassembly, the fill vent assembly and gasket were pretty gunked up with scale. I initially tried just cleaning things with CLR to the point it was scale free. The housing and seal. But when it would be reassembled, it would still leak during fill and wash. Even though the ring seal was making a real tight fit, water would still pass by it. At my wits end, and knowing there's no replacement parts, I went big. I just sealed it up with silicone kitchen sealant that can withstand the temperature. This too took a couple attempts, but finally worked! I got a couple weeps from it still, but after several runs the little pores must've sealed up and has been leak free. 4. (Photo 9); The ActiveVent wax motor was busted, so the vent never closed, leading to a pretty noisy wash. Replaced that wax motor with a new one from ebay. Works nicely now, and much quieter. 5. The detergent dispenser was also leaking significantly, through the lid lock shaft. A large pool of water would collect while a cycle ran, and then dump out when I'd open the door. I did find a replacement OEM detergent dispenser, but it didn't have the Rinse Aid sensor. It was only an issue if the door was opened too far soon after a dry cycle. So I held onto that issue to "monitor for the future." I'm happy to say, several months later of regular use, the little shaft seal must've been heated and moistened enough where it doesn't seem to be an issue anymore. It could be still weeping a bit, but the cycle heat seems to evaporate it. 6. Overall, the machine is in good condition after the renovations. However, if I'm honest, the older 23 series I have, seems to have held up better over time. From everything like pump parts, racks, wash arms and bearings. Seals etc, the 23 is just aging better. However, the 25, with this refresh, is holding its own. 7. (Photos 10,11); Now, what's fun is, it has the soil pressure sensor! What's interesting is, I could not get this to trip and modify the cycles at first. So I conducted some evaluation and experimentation. I was able to get some aquarium tubing, and a low level pressure gauge. I confirmed that when the pressure sensor was blown into manually, it would trip and manipulate the cycle. But the gauge was able to tell me what's going on in a cycle. Findings: Upon attaching the gauge, and running some cycles, the following was observed. - When running with clean water, the gauge reads between 2-3in/wc (inches of water column). - Manual testing with the gague, blowing into it, the trip switch level is aprox. 6in/wc. - I ran a couple cycles of soiled dishes, and the first two, only reached a max of 3.5in/wc. According to the cycle chart, the "sensing" period is in the first PreWash for about 4-6min. And my sensor readings didn't reach the trip point in that time frame. - I conducted this test a 3rd time, with lots of gross pans and dishes, after I did some baking. THIS time, I watched the gauge, and it rose to the 6in/wc trip point within just a few mintues, and dumped the tank! Modified the cycle to a "medium" soil load, which adds a thermal hold in the main wash, and the pre-final rinse purge is turned into a full rinse. It worked! Whats very interesting, monitoring its performance and soil trip points, I've come to the following conclusions: a) the collection chamber is very large on the PC, and it takes a lot of soil to collect before there's any collection resistance. b) the types of soils really matter. Obviously, the chunkier, heavier soils will settle out, and not seal the mesh. Loads that have lighter, finer soils, like breading, flour, starches etc, float and seal the filter faster, causing the sensor trips. This action makes sense! It's those fine, gritty soils that cause that grittiness on surfaces if it's not adequately washed and rinsed away. So if there's a load that has more of that soil, it makes sense the machine will "see" that type of soil, and want to run longer and flush more water through, so that silty stuff has enough opportunity to be flushed away. Existing Nagging Issue: There's an existing nagging issue, that I can only suspect is a control board glitch. It tends to trip the detergent dispenser, randomly, within the first fill or first wash segment. Causing an issue where a double dose could be dumped into the PreWash. Leaving nothing left for the main wash. It's sometimes gone weeks without doing this, and acting normally. But sometimes creep up again. So, I've had to get in the habit of just letting it fill, run for several seconds, and then put my detergent pack in the cup, for the rest of the cycle. Modifications: The upper arm that came with the machine was a gross yellowish color, like bad teeth or something. So I got another one super cheap. But.....after several weeks, that one became yellowish too! It looked so bad compared to the nice white racks. So I got a dark gray wash arm from a Voyager platform. Fit right in. The hole pattern is a little different, and it actually spins a little faster with extra drive jets. But so far no issues with cleaning! Everything up top is squeaky clean! Epilogue: Yeah! Pretty happy with it so far. It's quieter and the wash cycles are better than the 23 series with modern detergents. The thermal hold rinse really helps. Another interesting observation is that I can hear the 1/3 HP motor pitch change more when its under or off load with water, or when drained. The 23's 1/2HP motor never did that. Photos... < > Photo 1 of 13 View Full Size

Post# 1171201 , Reply# 1 2/4/2023 at 14:07 (454 days old) by appnut (TX)
Checkrate/Likes 1 John, congratulations. Excellent work as usual. This was the only model that mimiced the WP PowerClean/Super Scour dishwashers--meaning it did a thermal hold for the prewash when using Anti-Bacterial or Soak & Scrub cycles. One of the things I liked about real PowerClean models with the Pots & Pans or Power Clean/SuperScour cycles. I'm not 100% sure, but I think maybe the 1st generation TT WP models may have done that. Otherwise that prewash thermal hold was killed off to meet energy requirements. There were several times I wish both my TT WP/KA dishwashers had kept that.

Post# 1171209 , Reply# 2 2/4/2023 at 15:34 (454 days old) by Cam2s (Nebraska)
Checkrate/Likes 1 What a nice find and a great restoration. I've always like the 24 and 25 series, I hope to snag a Superba model one of these days. Are the silverware baskets the original ones to the machine, they look exactly like the ones that were in my Grandmas Point Voyager based Maytag. Kinda interesting to see how Whirlpool has recycled silverware baskets through their various brands over the years. I had a 1st generation Kitchenaid tall tub, it did the thermal hold in the prewash on the heavy cycle. Mine was one step below the Superba, the actual Superba model instead had an overnight soak cycle that would spray the load and then let it sit and "soak" for a while. The soak phase was 5 or so hours long.

Post# 1171405 , Reply# 3 2/6/2023 at 13:32 (452 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)
Checkrate/Likes Hey thanks gang! It was a fun restore and I�m enjoying the machine. I did have one question on the Soak&Scrub cycle with the long thermal pre-wash. I think it�s concluded these days, that loads with ample amounts of tomato sauce, when in prolonged hot water, can stain plastics. So I�ve been avoiding that cycle usually on pasta nights. Haha. Is there any risk with this? Or are my assumptions wrong? The original silverware baskets were pretty beat up. So I shopped around for another split OEM WP version. And those legacy Maytag baskets showed up on the cheap. They�re kinda flimsy but decent. The original 24,5 series baskets weren�t impressive either. My parents� new 540 Whirlpool has that overnight soak cycle. I think it�s 7.5hrs total. I don�t think they�ll ever use it. Hah.

Post# 1171429 , Reply# 4 2/6/2023 at 18:11 (452 days old) by appnut (TX)
Checkrate/Likes 1 I'd say your assumptions are vaid. I do not now what your cooking habits are, but I could still put those cycles to good use for things such as low and slow ribs or brisket, major encrusted debris such as scrabled eggs, (get the idea?) the other night I made my mom's bread pudding recipe for the first time in almost 4 years. The Bosch handled it like it was child's play with a Finish Quantum pod and auto cycle. That's never happend before with any previous dishwasher. And I think this baked casserole was one I wish I had that prewash thermal hold.

Post# 1171590 , Reply# 5 2/8/2023 at 10:49 (450 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)
Checkrate/Likes 1 *You are a SAINT!* Under very unfortunate circumstances, I had to leave my KUDS25 just like yours behind. It was seriously very hard to do, but was done for personal safety and happiness. However, it was seriously the best dishwasher I have ever used. As they become harder to find, I wonder if I will ever get my hands on one again. Thank you for doing the lord's work on one of these gems. Please keep us updated!

Post# 1171592 , Reply# 6 2/8/2023 at 10:56 (450 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)
Checkrate/Likes 1 *Forgot to mention...* My machine also would occasionally dump the main wash detergent early when using Soak & Scrub or Anti-Bacterial when a 2nd prewash was required. It would dump the detergent in the 2nd prewash, start to heat, then would drain from what I assume was a pressure switch trip. I actually really liked Short Wash because the machine would do a main wash (usually used super scrub for extra heat) followed by 2 rinses (final rinse at 140�F). I would just throw the detergent pack in the bottom of the tub and the machine would dissolve it right away. Light wash was just too short.

Post# 1172431 , Reply# 7 2/16/2023 at 23:31 (442 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)
Checkrate/Likes *Cookware galore* Fun little update. I had a hefty cookware load tonight after spaghetti. Made two kinds of pasta and a beefy red sauce. Filled the machine with all sorts of goopyness. Ran it on Soak & Scrub. With the long 30min PreWash. Not a serious contender for a BobLoad, since ther's still some free space. Messy nonetheless. But since it's more on the saucy side, the filter switch did not trip in the PreWash. So it was the regular "Heavy" cycle with PW-W-R-R. PS. those with keen eyes, will see the silverware basket changed. Again, Haha. It's from the dead Maytag TT in the basement. Photos... < > Photo 1 of 2 View Full Size

Post# 1172455 , Reply# 8 2/17/2023 at 10:07 (441 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)
Checkrate/Likes *Pre-Wash* That 30 minute prewash is for the thermal hold up to 135�F IIRC. That is the maximum time before it will automatically head into the mainwash. It will out clean a majority of dishwashers in the mainwash. Lmao. I found that the Antibacterial cycle was more conservative on dumping the prewash for another one. It almost always just performed one. Soak & Scrub was far pickier. One odd quirk I forgot to mention with the 25 series is that the Normal cycle prewash was fairly short ~5 minutes, mainwash was about ~12 (even with super scrub if temp was met), but the first rinse was just as long as the main wash at around 10 minutes, and the final rinse was about 10 minutes (if temp was met) as well. Not sure why the first rinse is so long other than quickly doing a prewash and mainwash to keep incoming water temperatures fairly high to save electricity? I would much prefer having 2 extra minutes in the prewash and 3 extra minutes in the mainwash and having a 5 minute first rinse. IDK.

Post# 1173697 , Reply# 10 3/4/2023 at 15:14 (426 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)
Checkrate/Likes *Packed up potential BobLoad(tm)* Made some creamy potato veggie soup and ended up with this grungy and fully packed load in the 25. Featuring the thunderbolt arm. Dual level loading in the top rack. A few stacked items (lids) in the lower. And the grungy soup pot. All Set to Soak & Scrub. It�s already had a soil sensor trip in the first 10min. Putting it at the Heavy soil level. (TH prewash(tripped))-(TH prerinse)-(mainW TH)-(rinse)-(TH final rinse) The differences in the thunderbolt arm and the 4-way are interesting. The thunderbolt, while having a slight bit of water jet fanning action, is definitely more aggressive. It�s got more knocking and blowing with all the jets lined up in a row. With the 4-way�s more spread out and fanned jet layout, it definitely seems more gentle. So much in fact, I don�t hesitate putting my tall wine glasses in the lower rack with the 4-way arm. Since the thunderbolt definitely knocks things around, I�d never put my wine glasses down there. Which probably leads to the slightly better �scrubbing� rating the WP and KM models got. The KAs being more subdued, I�d imagine KA customers were more nicked to have nice chinaware run through their machines than WP/KM customers. So the KA gets the same legacy gentle arm from the Hobart days. In my own experience, the thunderbolt arm, being more aggressive, has indeed seemed to scrub and strip cookware just a tad more cleaner than the KA arm. Photos... < > Photo 1 of 3 View Full Size

Post# 1175413 , Reply# 11 3/21/2023 at 11:19 (409 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)
Checkrate/Likes *DED* Well that was quick. She abruptly died last night mid cycle! Unresponsive. I suspect it�s the control board. Which really surprised me. These old school Powercleans have pretty rugged electronics. And after all the work I put in, I feel betrayed. I�ve not had time to deeply inspect it yet. And my fianc� is demanding I just put back �ole reliable� (the KUD23). Is there something off, with my power delivery maybe, on this circuit? I can�t tell. It IS the 2nd dishwasher I�ve had to blow. But the first was during a lightning storm outage. So that made sense at the time.

Post# 1172457 , Reply# 9 2/17/2023 at 11:04 (441 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)
Checkrate/Likes *Forgot to mention...* The Whirlpool and Kenmore cousins would get 'excellent' CR wash test results, whereas the KA would only recieve 'Very good'. I never knew if it was due to the lightening spray arm, or because of these shorter pre- and mainwash.

Post# 1175444 , Reply# 12 3/21/2023 at 16:06 (409 days old) by Cam2s (Nebraska)
Checkrate/Likes 1 Sorry to hear that it stopped, a bummer for a nice TOL machine such as yours. When I bought my Maxima FL I also bought a heavy duty appliance surge protector for it. They aren't that expensive and it certainly wouldn't hurt anything, especially if this is your second machine that has burned out. Do you think you will look for a replacement control board? I went the opposite way you did with the wash arm and put a Hydro Sweep in my Ultra Wash. It certainly is quieter and doesn't knock things around as much. I haven't noticed any issues with washability, the HydroSweep still has plenty of scrubbing power. I'm sure on really nasty crusty loads you it may give a slight edge. I do however have a set of Noritake Progessions china that I use for my dishes, so it is nice to use the HydroSweep and not have them be rattling around

Post# 1175840 , Reply# 13 3/24/2023 at 11:34 (406 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)
Checkrate/Likes *Oh no!* I am. not sure how I am just now seeing this. This is actually very upsetting. Hopefully you can find some additional parts to keep this beaut running. If not, I might just have to take it off your hands! Lol.

Post# 1176079 , Reply# 14 3/25/2023 at 22:52 (405 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)
Checkrate/Likes 3 I think there�s some good news? Upon deeper research and inspection, it looks like the thermal fuse blew. I have another on order for cheap. Thank goodness. I will need to comb through the wire harness before firing up the new one. I�m hoping the old fuse just blew from age and not bad wiring�. Will keep you all posted!

Post# 1176506 , Reply# 15 3/29/2023 at 23:27 (401 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)
Checkrate/Likes 8 IT�S ALIVE! After going over all the wire connections, and installing the thermal fuse. We�re back in action. Running its 3rd load so far with no issues. Knock on wood. View Full Size

Post# 1176541 , Reply# 16 3/30/2023 at 08:56 (400 days old) by appnut (TX)
Checkrate/Likes 1 YAY!!!